::::That's [[specious reasoning]]; The Roman Church claims God's word is evolving and is overridden by the Magisterium. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 11:32, 27 August 2020 (EDT)
::::You yourself claim God allows sinful men to dictate what is now considered to be the Word of God. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 11:35, 27 August 2020 (EDT)
====Discussion====
::"There shall be one flock and one shepherd" John 10:16. And yet the Bible '''''also''''' says there are many elders as guardians whom God has appointed as shepherds to feed the flock, Peter himself being an elder among them, whom Jesus himself '''first''' appointed to feed his sheep and ewes and lambs. Acts 20:28 and 1 Peter 5:1-6 and John 21:15-17. The ''Letter to the Hebrews'' commands us to obey the leaders who spoke the word of God and watch over our souls. Hebrews 13:7,17. Paul insisted on being of "one mind" in the faith "striving side by side for the faith of the gospel". Philippians 1:27; 4:2. --[[User:IndependentSkeptic|IndependentSkeptic]] ([[User talk:IndependentSkeptic|talk]]) 11:40, 27 August 2020 (EDT)
:::One flock and one shepherd = Jew + Gentile = Catholic. This isn't rocket science. ''ye are not under law but under grace'', but the Judaizers kept preaching law.<ref>https://www.biblehub.com/galatians/2-14.htm</ref> [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 11:51, 27 August 2020 (EDT)
::::"Ye are not under the law of Moses". Paul's every reference to the law is to the law of Moses. Christians are not under the law of Moses, but the law of Christ, which includes being subject to men in the church. Jesus and Paul and Peter preached obedience to the authority of God in the church he built on a rock, and against it the gates of hell shall not prevail. Paul commanded Timothy and Titus to correct and rebuke "with all authority" in guarding the faith. 1 Timothy 4:11-12; 2 Timothy 1:14; Titus 2:15. And he condemned those who would not accept his authority; as did John those who would not accept his authority. 2 Corinthians 10:1-8; 11:12-15; 3 John 9-11. The church is built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, not on lies. And it is led into all truth forever by the saving grace of God through Christ alone in the Church he built on a rock, and he is with us always to the end of the world [[Eon|''aeonos'']]. The authority of the church is not a lie but truth. And we are commanded to obey that authority, not the law of Moses, but the authority established God. Jesus who cannot lie did not fail to fulfill his promise that Satan, the power behind the gates of hell, shall not prevail against the church he built. Jesus cannot lie. So it has never been ruled by Satan. And its doctrine of unmerited grace according to the ''Catechism'' ('''Grace and Justification''') is the truth of God straight from the Bible. For, "if this counsel or this work be of men, it will come to naught: But if it be of God, ye cannot overthrow it; lest haply ye be found even to fight against God." Acts 5:38b-39. <br> The Reformation taught for centuries that Catholicism and the Catholic Church would come to naught and be destroyed by God. It has never happened, and history is witness. Ye are not under the law of Moses, but are commanded to submit to the authority of the elders and leaders of the Church and their teaching. Because it is the pillar and ground of the truth, and the gates of hell shall never prevail against it. Even when there are weeds among the wheat that will have to be gathered out of the kingdom at harvest time and burned. --[[User:IndependentSkeptic|IndependentSkeptic]] ([[User talk:IndependentSkeptic|talk]]) 12:31, 27 August 2020 (EDT)
:::''ye are not under law but under grace.'' Right there, you just dispensed with grace once again. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 12:49, 27 August 2020 (EDT)
:::Law of Moses = law of God. The Christian is not under the law of God, which can only condemn and not save. The Christian believer is under the grace of God, which the Catechism of the Catholic Church denies.<ref>https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Galatians+3%3A23-25&version=KJV</ref> The grace of God, i.e. God ''not'' holding the sinner to account for his sins, '''''is''''' the Gospel. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 12:53, 27 August 2020 (EDT)
:::*''all who rely on works of the law are under a curse;''<ref>https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Galatians+3%3A10-14&version=ESV</ref>
:::[[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 13:38, 27 August 2020 (EDT)
::::You have [[Specious reasoning|speciously]] redefined the law of God as limited strictly to the law of Moses. The law of God is obedience to his will. That is what the Bible commands and teaches. If the Christian is not under even the law (authority) of God the Christian is not obligated to obey even the will of God. '''[[Antinomianism]]''' and '''[[Licentiousness]]'''. Paul denounced that monstrous lie. {{quotation|Do we then overthrow the law by this faith? By no means! On the contrary, we uphold the law. Romans 3:31}}{{quotation|What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it? Romans 6:1-2}}{{quotation|Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal bodies, to make you obey their passions. Do not yield your members to sin as instruments of wickedness, but yield yourselves to God as men who have been brought from death to life, and your members to God as instruments of righteousness. Romans 6:12-13}}{{quotation|What then? Are we to sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means! Do you not know that if you yield yourselves to any one as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness. But thanks be to God, that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to '''the standard of teaching to which you were committed.''' Romans 6:15-18}}{{quotation|For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:23}}So '''obedience''' leads to righteousness.{{quotation|For he will render to every man according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are factious and do not '''obey the truth''', but obey wickedness, there will be wrath and fury. There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Gentile, but glory and honor and peace for every one who does good, the Jew first and also the Gentile. For God shows no partiality.}}If as you say the Christian is not under even the law (authority) of God, then the Christian is not obligated to obey even God and is not obligated to obey the Bible the word of God, and we can freely do anything we please, even every kind of wickedness, because we are not under law and "there is now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus". But that is not the whole truth. For "in him is no sin". Paul said "every man" and that includes every Christian. Those who obey wickedness are not "in Christ"—"for those who are factious and do not '''obey the truth''', but obey wickedness, there will be wrath and fury." And those who disobey are severed from him and are not in Him. The Bible commands obedience for the sake of the Lord. 1 Peter 2:13.<br>You reject the obedience of righteousness unto life, the obedience of righteousness in seeking for glory and honor and immortality by works of doing good. Rejecting the grace of God to do good works is death. For the wages of sin is death. Christians are God's workmanship, '''created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.''' Ephesians 2:10. Therefore, what you propose is death. Not even obeying God. Jesus said, "If you love me, keep my commandments" John 14:15; 15:10. When one came to him and asked what must he do to have '''eternal life''', Jesus said, "If you would enter '''life''', keep the commandments." Matthew 19:17b. John said, "For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome." 1 John 5:3.<br>The ''Catechism of the Catholic Church'', with doctrine directly from the Bible, explains the keeping of the commandments. Jesus did not fail to keep his promise to lead us into all the truth for ever by the Holy Spirit of truth, and remain always to the end of the world. And the Bible tells us to obey the leaders of the church. <br>You say to disobey the Catholic Church. You say that obedience is against the gospel of grace. The doctrine of disobedience and rebellion against the authority of the church Jesus built on a rock, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it, is a doctrine not of God. You reject the grace bestowed on the Church, reject the grace of salvation through the Church, reject the grace of the sacraments He ordained to bestow grace unto salvation and for the upbuilding of the church, reject the grace of senior leading elders and shepherds of the Church led into all the truth by the Spirit of truth, and reject the grace of being united to the Body and Blood of Christ in the Church he built on the rock of Peter and continued with, always, to the end of the world. Your "gospel of grace" is a false gospel of [[libertinism]] and [[licentiousness]] and [[antinomianism]], opposed to the word of Christ Jesus in his promise regarding the church he built, a false gospel rooted in disobedience and contempt for authority established by God. Your "gospel of grace" is the rebellion of Korah, [https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Numbers+16&version=kjv Numbers 16] (see [https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Jude+1%3A8-11&version=RSVCE Jude 8-11]), and is the rebellion rooted in the first rebel who would not obey the authority of God, and fell, being cast out (Revelation 12:7-10). <br> I will have nothing more to do with you (Titus 3:10-11) --[[User:IndependentSkeptic|IndependentSkeptic]] ([[User talk:IndependentSkeptic|talk]]) 14:29, 27 August 2020 (EDT)
:::You can [[spam]] all you want. The bottomline is we have already proved both the Magisterium and Catechism contradict the Bible. The only question is, ''Why?'' Answer: [[Pride]]. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 14:34, 27 August 2020 (EDT)
:::*''all who rely on works of the law are under a curse;''
:::*''Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law''
:::"us", maybe not you. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 14:41, 27 August 2020 (EDT)
:::Obedience = faith. Disobedience = lack of faith, not believing God, doubting what God says is true or calling God a liar, leaning on your own understanding.
:::''by grace are ye saved, through faith...not of works''
:::''if it be by works, grace is no longer grace''
:::''all who rely on works of the law are under a curse''
:::Disobedience - rejecting what God says here, and you reject the Gospel. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 15:00, 27 August 2020 (EDT)
:::Adam and Eve, for example, their real disobedience was in not believing what God said, moreso than in the act of partaking of the forbidden fruit. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 18:10, 27 August 2020 (EDT)
::::''You keep [[spam]]ming the same lie!'' '''Practical''' (actual) '''Spiritual Disobedience, [[Rebellion against God|Rebellion]], [[Licentiousness]], [[Libertinism]], [[Antinomianism]], [[Anarchism]], [[Amoral]]ity, [[Individualism]].''' ''Your real disobedience is in not believing Jesus, in not believing what God Himself said, in not believing the Bible!'' --[[User:IndependentSkeptic|IndependentSkeptic]] ([[User talk:IndependentSkeptic|talk]]) 19:57, 27 August 2020 (EDT)<br>The spiritual definition of '''obedience''' is actively choosing and '''''doing what is right''''', not solely believing alone, but actually doing what God commands, the will of the Father. <br>The spiritual definition of '''disobedience''' is '''''not''''' choosing to '''''do what is right''''' in deeds of wickedness and unrighteousness, by relying solely on believing alone, and not striving with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength to do what God commands, and not acting according to the will of the Father.<br>See '''[https://biblehub.com/luke/6-46.htm Luke 6:46]; [https://biblehub.com/matthew/7-21.htm Matthew 7:21]; [https://biblehub.com/james/1-22.htm James 1:22]''' and '''[https://biblehub.com/james/4-17.htm James 4:17]; [https://biblehub.com/1_john/3-18.htm 1 John 3:18]'''<br>Faith that bears fruit in deeds of love and mercy fulfills the law of God, "the doers of the law". [https://biblehub.com/romans/2-13.htm Romans 2:13] and [https://biblehub.com/james/2-24.htm James 2:24] and [https://biblehub.com/john/15-2.htm John 15:2]. See ''[[Corporal and spiritual works of mercy]]''.<br>If you don't do good works as he commands and bear fruit in righteousness, you reject the Gospel; and the Son of man on his glorious throne, and all the angels with him, will say to you, "Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels" [https://biblehub.com/matthew/25-41.htm '''Matthew 25:41'''] ([https://www.bible.com/bible/111/MAT.25.31-46.niv context Matthew 25:31-46]); [https://biblehub.com/romans/2-9.htm '''Romans 2:9''']. --[[User:IndependentSkeptic|IndependentSkeptic]] ([[User talk:IndependentSkeptic|talk]]) 01:49, 28 August 2020 (EDT)
:::Maybe we're making progress here. The spiritual definition of disobedience is not believing God. It appears you just acknowledged that. Disobedience is not necessarily breaking a line item of the 613 commandments or decalogue. Praise God! We may have a spiritual breakthrough! [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 22:49, 27 August 2020 (EDT)
:::Why do Christians ''not'' use their liberty as a cloak for unrighteousness? Because of law? No. Because they believe (i.e. have faith in) God. They believe unhesitatingly what God says is true. And by this faith (belief in God's word) they obtain grace and are freed from the curse of the law. If any man sin, we an Advocate with the Father. Next time your mediator other than Christ sentences you to three Hail Mary's and two Our Fathers, remember before you do your penance, ''all who rely on works of the law are under a curse''. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 23:21, 27 August 2020 (EDT)
::::''all who rely on works of the law of Moses are under a curse.'' All who act and do works according to the law of righteousness are justified. "The doers of the law are justified." Romans 2:13. "Do we nullify the law by faith? By no means! On the contrary, we uphold the law." Romans 3:31. He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. Revelation 2–3. Obey your leaders and submit to them; for they are keeping watch over your souls. Hebrews 13:7,17. There is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. Therefore anyone who resists the authority resists what God has appointed, and those that resist will incur judgment. Romans 13:1-2. And the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven. Matthew 16:18-19. Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them. Whose sins you retain and do not remove are retained and not removed. John 20:23. God has entrusted to them the ministry of reconciliation as the ambassadors of God who speak for God. 2 Corinthians 5:18-20. If anyone will not listen to the church, let him be to you as a sinful publican and an unbelieving pagan. Matthew 18:17. Why do you call Me Lord, and not do what I say? Luke 6:46-49; Matthew 7:21-27. "He who is of God hears the words of God; the reason why you do not hear them is that you are not of God." '''[https://biblehub.com/john/8-47.htm John 8:47]'''. --[[User:IndependentSkeptic|IndependentSkeptic]] ([[User talk:IndependentSkeptic|talk]]) 03:21, 28 August 2020 (EDT)
:::Nice try, but you can't around ''ye are under grace and not under law''. I guess you're just not among the ''ye''. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 03:32, 28 August 2020 (EDT)
===User: NishantXavier===