Changes

:Official Roman Catholic teaching supplants the bible in authority (Catholic teaching believes :God's word is "evolving"), says

::::We've been over this a dozen times. The gospel was preached to Israel in the wilderness. King David had the Holy Spirit. [[Job]] was "perfect and upright." Zacharias and Elisabeth were both "righteous before God", as was [[Abel]]. Simeon (Luke 2:25) was "just and devout". In all these cases '''Jesus had not yet died''' either. There is only one way a sinner can be declared righteous before God.<ref>Question:*'''Romans 4:1''' - ''What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?''<br>Answer:<br>*'''Romans 4:21''' - ''being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform,'' i.e., the [[resurrection]].<br>All these Old Testament figures, Abraham, Job, David, Zacharias and Elizabeth, Simeon, Anna, Abel and others had faith in God and the resurrection, (or new life in Christ), knowing that ''whatsoever He had promised he was able to deliver''. Faith is ''the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things unseen''. They didn't have to wait for Jesus to be born, crucified, and resurrected to be 'born again' and receive the Holy Spirit. They were all declared righteous by simply believing what God promised, or ''faith''. Faith is obedience.</ref> The Law cannot make righteous.<ref>https://biblehub.com/library/augustine/anti-pelagian_writings/chapter_16_x_how_the_law.htm</ref> You apparently do not understand what the gospel is. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]^{[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]} 08:43, 30 August 2020 (EDT) ::::Independent Skeptic says, '''"This shows that John's water baptism unto repentance cannot be the water baptism which Jesus commanded people to receive"''' Bingo! Now reconcile what you just posted with Roman Catholic doctrine and all the drivel in the [[Infant baptism]] page. Hint: Jesus didn't command "water baptism". [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]^{[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]} 09:07, 30 August 2020 (EDT):::::::Yes He did! John 3:5 "Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born [''regenerated''] of '''water and ''of'' the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God'''."<br>"Regenerate" in John 3:3-5 is the Greek '''γεννηθή''' ''gennethe''.<br>The words '''γεννηθή''' ''gennethe'' and '''γεννηθήναι''' ''gennethenai'' in the Greek New Testament text of John 3:3-5 mean to ''procreate, regenerate, bear, beget, be born, conceive'', a variation of '''γένος''' ''genos'', meaning ''born, offspring, generation, stock''.<ref>See Strong's numbers [http://biblehub.com/greek/1078.htm 1078], [http://biblehub.com/greek/1079.htm 1079], [http://biblehub.com/greek/1080.htm 1080], [http://biblehub.com/greek/1081.htm 1081], [http://biblehub.com/greek/1083.htm 1083], [http://biblehub.com/greek/1084.htm 1084], [http://biblehub.com/greek/1085.htm 1085].</ref> This "born" (as being literally "generated/regenerated") is the ordinary word "born" also used in :::::::"Regenerated" is also found as "born again" '''άναγεγεννηθήναι''' ''anagegennethenai'' in 1 Peter 1:23, "Being born again (regenerated), not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever." <ref>See Strong's number [http://biblehub.com/greek/313.htm ''313'' '''άναγεγεννάω''' ''anagegennao'' to ''beget'', or ''bear'' (again).]</ref> <br>Compare [http://biblehub.com/interlinear/john/1-13.htm the interlinear text of John 1:13], [http://biblehub.com/john/1-13.htm multiple versions of John 1:13], [http://biblehub.com/commentaries/john/1-13.htm and multiple commentaries on John 1:13]. <br>This "word" of God in [https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Peter+1%3A23&version=RSVCE 1&nbsp;Peter 1:23] is a direct reference to the doctrine of [https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians+5%3A25-26&version=RSVCE Ephesians 5:25-26], where Paul says, :::::::"Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word."<br>See also [http://biblehub.com/interlinear/titus/3-5.htm interlinear text of Titus 3:5] [http://biblehub.com/titus/3-5.htm multiple versions of Titus 3:5] and [http://biblehub.com/commentaries/titus/3-5.htm multiple commentaries on Titus 3:5].:::::::"he saved us, not because of deeds done by us in righteousness, but in virtue of his own mercy, by the '''''washing'' of regeneration''' and renewal in the Holy Spirit, which he poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior". The Greek word for "washing" in this text means "water-washing"—"he saved us...by the water-washing of regeneration". <br> The word of God is the word spoken simultaneously with the action of pouring, immersing or sprinkling of water in the [[sacrament]] of [[baptism]] to wash away all sins,<ref>See [https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts+22%3A16&version=RSVCE Acts 22:16]; [https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians+5%3A26&version=RSVCE Ephesians 5:26].</ref> "I baptize you in the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. Amen." (Matthew 28:19; Mark 16:16.) This is "baptismal regeneration". <br>Not one of those who claim to have been baptized in the Spirit by faith alone has ever been told at the decisive moment they accepted Christ as their personal Lord and Savior, "I baptize you in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost" before they were plunged into water as their testimony of salvation (''especially at the moment when they accepted Him sitting in the pew or decided to accept him by faith when they were alone''). <br>So from the whole context of the scriptures we can '''know''' that Jesus commanded water baptism. The Catholic doctrine of water baptism is biblical. It's the doctrine of the church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth, led into all the truth for ever by the Spirit of truth with us for ever. --[[User:IndependentSkeptic|IndependentSkeptic]] ([[User talk:IndependentSkeptic|talk]]) 13:07, 30 August 2020 (EDT) :::::On a side point, you appear to be misreading Acts 19:2 with this statement, "Christians are baptized into his death, burial, and resurrection...John's disciples were not." No, John's baptism is with water, Jesus' baptism is with the Holy Spirit. John says, "I baptize with water, but he shall baptize you with the Holy Spirit." All of this runs contrary to Roman Catholic doctrine on water baptism, salvation, and receiving the Holy Spirit. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]^{[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]} 09:16, 30 August 2020 (EDT) ::::<s>You are trolling again. </s> Below you state salvation is earned or merited, which is exactly what catechism teaches. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]^{[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]} 09:42, 29 August 2020 (EDT)----The Roman Catholic catechism teaches that the Holy Spirit is given through water baptism.

:::This is the ultimate fulfillment of God's commandment to honor our fathers and mothers, even if they are wicked, and to obey the judges of the people, even if they are wicked. "You shall not revile God, nor curse a ruler of your people." (Exodus 20:12; 22:28; Deuteronomy 17:9-13; Matthew 23:2-3; John 19:10-11)

:::*'''Mark 7:13''' - '''''making the word of God of no effect''' through your tradition which you have handed down. And many such things you do.''{{unsigned|RobSmith}}

:Unbelief, or a lack of faith, is disobedience.<ref>Heb. 3:18, 4:6.</ref>{{unsigned|RobSmith}}

*According to the above argument, the gates of hell '''''have''''' prevailed against the church Jesus founded on a rock, and therefore it cannot be the pillar and ground of the truth as Paul testified it is. Your position is that Jesus failed to fulfill his promise. You make Jesus out to be a liar. That is antichrist.

::::"Ye are not under the law of Moses". Paul's every reference to the law is to the law of Moses. Christians are not under the law of Moses, but the law of Christ, which includes being subject to men in the church. Jesus and Paul and Peter preached obedience to the authority of God in the church he built on a rock, and against it the gates of hell shall not prevail. Paul commanded Timothy and Titus to correct and rebuke "with all authority" in guarding the faith. 1&nbsp;Timothy 4:11-12; 2&nbsp;Timothy 1:14; Titus 2:15. And he condemned those who would not accept his authority; as did John those who would not accept his authority. 2&nbsp;Corinthians 10:1-8; 11:12-15; 3&nbsp;John 9-11. The church is built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, not on lies. And it is led into all truth forever by the saving grace of God through Christ alone in the Church he built on a rock, and he is with us always to the end of the world [[Eon|''aeonos'']]. The authority of the church is not a lie but truth. And we are commanded to obey that authority, not the law of Moses, but the authority established by God, not to abolish the law and the prophets but to rightly fulfill them in Christ Jesus (Matthew 5:17). Jesus who cannot lie did not fail to fulfill his promise that Satan, the power behind the gates of hell, shall not prevail against the church he built. Jesus cannot lie. So it has never been ruled by Satan. And its doctrine of unmerited grace according to the ''Catechism'' ('''Grace and Justification''') is the truth of God straight from the Bible. For, "if this counsel or this work be of men, it will come to naught: But if it be of God, ye cannot overthrow it; lest haply ye be found even to fight against God." Acts 5:38b-39. <br> The Reformation taught for centuries that Catholicism and the Catholic Church would come to naught and be destroyed by God. It has never happened, and history is witness. Ye are not under the law of Moses, but are commanded to submit to the authority of the elders and leaders of the Church and their teaching. Because it is the pillar and ground of the truth, and the gates of hell shall never prevail against it. Even when there are weeds among the wheat that will have to be gathered out of the kingdom at harvest time and burned. --[[User:IndependentSkeptic|IndependentSkeptic]] ([[User talk:IndependentSkeptic|talk]]) 12:31, 27 August 2020 (EDT)

::::You have [[Specious reasoning|speciously]] redefined the law of God as limited strictly to the law of Moses. The law of God is obedience to his will. That is what the Bible commands and teaches. If the Christian is not under even the law (authority) of God the Christian is not obligated to obey even the will of God. '''[[Antinomianism]]''' and '''[[Licentiousness]]'''. Paul denounced that monstrous lie. {{quotation|Do we then overthrow the law by this faith? By no means! On the contrary, we uphold the law. Romans 3:31}}{{quotation|What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it? Romans 6:1-2}}{{quotation|Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal bodies, to make you obey their passions. Do not yield your members to sin as instruments of wickedness, but yield yourselves to God as men who have been brought from death to life, and your members to God as instruments of righteousness. Romans 6:12-13}}{{quotation|What then? Are we to sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means! Do you not know that if you yield yourselves to any one as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness. But thanks be to God, that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to '''the standard of teaching to which you were committed.''' Romans 6:15-18}}{{quotation|For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:23}}So '''obedience''' leads to righteousness.{{quotation|For he will render to every man according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are factious and do not '''obey the truth''', but obey wickedness, there will be wrath and fury. There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Gentile, but glory and honor and peace for every one who does good, the Jew first and also the Gentile. For God shows no partiality.Romans 2:6-11}}If as you say the Christian is not under even the law (authority) of God, then the Christian is not obligated to obey even God and is not obligated to obey the Bible the word of God, and we can freely do anything we please, even every kind of wickedness, because we are not under law and "there is now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus". But that is not the whole truth. For "in him is no sin". Paul said "every man" and that includes every Christian. Those who obey wickedness are not "in Christ"—"for those who are factious and do not '''obey the truth''', but obey wickedness, there will be wrath and fury." And those who disobey are severed from him and are not in Him. The Bible commands obedience for the sake of the Lord. 1&nbsp;Peter 2:13.<br>You reject the obedience of righteousness unto life, the obedience of righteousness in seeking for glory and honor and immortality by works of doing good. Rejecting the grace of God to do good works is death. For the wages of sin is death. Christians are God's workmanship, '''created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.''' Ephesians 2:10. Therefore, what you propose is death. Not even obeying God. Jesus said, "If you love me, keep my commandments" John 14:15; 15:10. When one came to him and asked what must he do to have '''eternal life''', Jesus said, "If you would enter '''life''', keep the commandments." Matthew 19:17b. John said, "For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome." 1&nbsp;John 5:3.<br>The ''Catechism of the Catholic Church'', with doctrine '''directly from the Bible''', explains the keeping of the commandments(Part Three: Life in Christ - CCC '''1691–2557''')—'''''love, mercy, humility, justice, respect for parents and those in authority, obedience to the will of God'''''. Jesus did not fail to keep his promise to lead us into all the truth for ever by the Holy Spirit of truth, and remain always to the end of the world. And the Bible tells us to obey the leaders of the church. <br>You say to disobey the Catholic Church. You say that obedience is against the gospel of grace. The doctrine of disobedience and rebellion against the authority of the church Jesus built on a rock, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it, is a doctrine not of God. You reject the grace bestowed on the Church, reject the grace of salvation through the Church, reject the grace of the sacraments He ordained to bestow grace unto salvation and for the upbuilding of the church, reject the grace of the established authority of the most senior -ranking leading elders and shepherds of the Church led into all the truth by the Spirit of truth, and reject the grace of being united to the Body and Blood of Christ in the Church he built on the rock of Peter and continued with, always, to the end of the world. Your "gospel of grace" is a false gospel of [[libertinism]] and [[licentiousness]] and [[antinomianism]], opposed to the word of Christ Jesus in his promise regarding the church he built, a false gospel rooted in disobedience and contempt for authority established by God. Your "gospel of grace" is the rebellion of Korah, [https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Numbers+16&version=kjv Numbers 16] (see [https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Jude+1%3A8-11&version=RSVCE Jude 8-11]), and is the rebellion rooted in the first rebel who would not obey the authority of God, and fell, being cast out (Revelation 12:7-10). <br> I will have nothing more to do with you (Titus 3:10-11) --[[User:IndependentSkeptic|IndependentSkeptic]] ([[User talk:IndependentSkeptic|talk]]) 14:29, 27 August 2020 (EDT):::::Korah preached grace? Not hardly. And there is no rebellion against [[idolatry]]. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]^{[[User talk:RobSmith|Free Kyle!]]} 10:02, 4 September 2020 (EDT)

:::Nice try, but you can't get around ''ye are under grace and not under law''. I guess you're just not among the ''ye''. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]^{[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]} 03:32, 28 August 2020 (EDT) :I/S says, "obedience leads to righteousness"; that's close, but no cigar. Once you realize obedience = faith, i.e. believing what God says in his Bible, and not just avoiding a spanking, you can resolve all your contradictions regarding being under the curse of the law. Faith leads to righteousness. :''Ye'' [meaning Christian believers] ''are not under law''. The Roman Catholic Church not only does not teach the Word of God, it contradicts and denies the Word of God. Whenever that catechism was formulated by men and said to supplement or replace scripture, is when the Gates of Hell prevailed. ''A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump.'' [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]^{[[User talk:RobSmith|Free Kyle!]]} 04:32, 4 September 2020 (EDT) ====Specific points====IndependentSkeptic says,{{quotebox|*"Paul said the church is the household of God, the church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth, built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, '''Christ Jesus himself being the chief cornerstone..."'''}}yet the argument of Roman church authority is built upon '''''denying''''' that Christ is the Rock of salvation upon which the church is built, but rather Peter, from whom the Roman church supposedly has sole "authority" to interpret scripture. You can't have it both ways. You can't say Christ is the Rock of salvation upon which the church is built and Peter is the rock upon which the church is built. ''God is not the author of confusion'' (1 Cor. 14:33), [[Satan]] is. Furthermore, your intellectualizing to explain this confusion likewise is unbiblical, if not anti-biblical. You are being ''wise in your own conceits'' (Romans 12:16), puffed up in your own [[pride]], refusing to humble yourself before God, and repent (<small>I use the "you" in a rhetorical sense, speaking to the promulgators and adherents of Roman Catholic doctrine, both living and past, and not to any specific individual.</small>) [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]^{[[User talk:RobSmith|Free Kyle!]]} 09:59, 11 September 2020 (EDT)