:::: [[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 03:12, 7 July 2008 (EDT)
::::: Not exactly. The argument is that, if it is ''known'' that you will choose X, then you could not choose Y. It's not an argument against omniscience at all -- it's an argument against the compatibility of omniscience with free will. As I said above, there are various ways around it -- I personally prefer the Leibnizian theodicy -- but it's still a problem that has to be dealt with by anyone who believes in both libertarian free will and an omniscient being. [[User:NosnhoJE|NosnhoJE]] 03:26, 7 July 2008 (EDT)
::::: And, I should say, you are completely correct. Supposing that the Big Bang caused the Universe just removes the Divine by one step. The point is: that is a step not taken by the Kalam argument; and so the Kalam argument as presented in its most sophisticated form to date is not able to deal with this problem. This is meant to be an encyclopedia; as such it behooves us to deal with only those arguments which have actually been presented in, say, print. The Kalam argument is not sophisticated enough in any current form to deal with the objection I have presented. William Craig (in personal correspondence) has admitted as much, and within the next few years I do not doubt that we will see an updated version of the argument. The problem is a sticky one: if we admit ''events'' into our ontology, we are stuck with (in various areas) some seriously unpalatable results. Craig is more than aware of this (see his piece in Pojman and Rea's ''Philosophy of Religion'' anthology). [[User:NosnhoJE|NosnhoJE]] 03:30, 7 July 2008 (EDT)
Going back to the big bang, I asked a pyschicist and he said the universe has an age, the only people who try to claim the universe has existed forever are some atheists, but that most atheists agree with the big bang. --<span style="margin-top: -3px;"> [[Image:50 star flag.png|12px]]</span><span style="position:relative; overflow:hidden; width:88px; height:15px; z-index:2;"> [[User:Deborah|Deborah]] [[Special:Contributions/Deborah|<font color="gray">(contributions)</font>]] [[User_talk:Deborah|<font color="darkslategray">(talk)</font>]]</span> 23:56, 6 July 2008 (EDT)
: I fail to see how this is relevant to the arguments at hand. The question is not: "How old is the Universe?"; the question is: "How old could the Universe be?". Since we are making logical arguments here, rather than empirical claims, what some atheists believe or what some theists believe is utterly irrelevant. To which physicist did you speak? At best, that person seems to be misunderstanding the question.
: If you want to get into a credentials fight, I promise I'll win. I would, of course, prefer to win this debate on the merits, but I realize that this is not always possible on the Internet, where I don't have the power to flunk people who aren't paying attention. [[User:NosnhoJE|NosnhoJE]] 03:26, 7 July 2008 (EDT)