:::: As for your edits, I wasn't objecting to them in toto, simply because I hadn't thought them through. Rather, I was responding to one point of the argument. If the Big Bang replaces God as the ''direct'' cause of the universe, but God is needed for the Big Bang, it's disingenuous to say that "if the Universe was caused to exist by the Big Bang, there is no need to suppose a Divine cause". And that was my point: proposing the Big Bang is insufficient reason to say that a Divine cause is not required. It just removes the Divine cause one step.
:::: [[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 03:12, 7 July 2008 (EDT)
::::: Not exactly. The argument is that, if it is ''known'' that you will choose X, then you could not choose Y. It's not an argument against omniscience at all -- it's an argument against the compatibility of omniscience with free will. As I said above, there are various ways around it -- I personally prefer the Leibnizian theodicy -- but it's still a problem that has to be dealt with by anyone who believes in both libertarian free will and an omniscient being. [[User:NosnhoJE|NosnhoJE]] 03:26, 7 July 2008 (EDT)
Going back to the big bang, I asked a pyschicist and he said the universe has an age, the only people who try to claim the universe has existed forever are some atheists, but that most atheists agree with the big bang. --<span style="margin-top: -3px;"> [[Image:50 star flag.png|12px]]</span><span style="position:relative; overflow:hidden; width:88px; height:15px; z-index:2;"> [[User:Deborah|Deborah]] [[Special:Contributions/Deborah|<font color="gray">(contributions)</font>]] [[User_talk:Deborah|<font color="darkslategray">(talk)</font>]]</span> 23:56, 6 July 2008 (EDT)
: I fail to see how this is relevant to the arguments at hand. The question is not: "How old is the Universe?"; the question is: "How old could the Universe be?". Since we are making logical arguments here, rather than empirical claims, what some atheists believe or what some theists believe is utterly irrelevant. To which physicist did you speak? At best, that person seems to be misunderstanding the question.
: If you want to get into a credentials fight, I promise I'll win. I would, of course, prefer to win this debate on the merits, but I realize that this is not always possible on the Internet, where I don't have the power to flunk people who aren't paying attention. [[User:NosnhoJE|NosnhoJE]] 03:26, 7 July 2008 (EDT)