Difference between revisions of "Talk:Breast cancer"

Revision as of 22:30, April 10, 2007

PalMD, I'm not going to allow concealment here of how abortion increases risk of breast cancer. That's not fair to the women who are victims, and it is not truthful either. Your citations to organizations are not scientific and you omit the compelling logic and overwhelming evidence of an increased risk. See the discussion in abortion.

I'm not going to spend hours debating the logic and obvious evidence here. If necessary, this page will be locked and those who seek to deny this information to women (and thereby mislead them) will be blocked. Thank you.--Aschlafly 13:52, 10 April 2007 (EDT)

Andrew - there is no concealment. However, there is a link to at least three authorities with no financial axe to grind who have looked at the evidence and come to a different conclusion than that reported in the abortion article. Are you going to deny this information to women who might be in quite unnecessary fear over their level of risk? This seems unkind. I will link the article to the abortion article, and then interested parties can go from one to the other and compare the quality of evidence. If the evidence is good enough, it needs no protection, surely? Perhaps you could approach each of the citations in support of assertions here and show where they are flawed. Britinme 13:57 10 April 2007 (EDT)

Andy, please call me Pete. Anyway, if you wish to question my credentials and back up your assertions with better citations than I have, then just do it. Add it to the discussion, and lets see if we can squeeze it into the article if it is truly convincing. Dont just lock then ask later. --PalMD^talk 14:03, 10 April 2007 (EDT)

Andy, what if I were to write that mammograms give so much radiation that they are a significant risk factor for cancer. I have no credible sources to back this up, and it takes away from the overall legitimacy of the article. There are many good reasons to halt abortions, but this isnt one of them.--PalMD^talk 14:07, 10 April 2007 (EDT)

PalMD, I'm not going to waste hours debating this with you, any more than I would debate whether 2+2=5 with you. The content page is not going to mislead women as abortion supporters have. Go to Wikipedia if you prefer citing liberal organizations rather than disclosing the logic and honest research. Here, we are going to tell women the truth and efforts to interfere with that will result in locking and blocking. This will probably be my last comment here on this and you can have the last word here. But the content page is going to disclose the logic, the honest studies, and the truth about this.--Aschlafly 14:22, 10 April 2007 (EDT)

Andy, in the interest of fairness you should probably include the studies contrary to your views. As you say, this isn't Wikipedia, you don't censor for PoV. I don't think PalMD would question your legal reasoning - will you question his medical knowledge?-AmesG_yo! 14:24, 10 April 2007 (EDT)

Im not sure what "liberal" sources you refer to. The CDC? WHO? NEJM? NIH? Im sorry, Andy, but you do not seem to have respect for either truth or experts. You have an agenda, and are willing to run rough-shod over important facts to get there. Save the abortion debate for where it belongs. Im more with you on that than you think. When you say that your truth is obvious,etc, that usually means you believe it and thats good enough.--PalMD^talk 14:25, 10 April 2007 (EDT)

Andy, you're absolutely right that we should be looking at the research, but you seem to not be aware of all of it. I would appreciate it if you would respond to the points at the end of the abortion talk page. Murray 14:39, 10 April 2007 (EDT)

Andy, if you can give me an actual NNH (number needed to harm, that is number of women who would have to get an abortion to cause one extra case of breast cancer), or odds ratio, or risk ratio from a good study of abortion and breast cancer, we can cite it and discuss it. If you have the raw data, I can show you how to calculate these. Otherwise, it has no medical bearing.--PalMD^talk 14:41, 10 April 2007 (EDT)

See Bias - Original work

Why is Mastectomy not mentioned in this article? --Elamdri 15:55, 10 April 2007 (EDT)

Haven't finished yet...--PalMD^talk 15:56, 10 April 2007 (EDT)

Oh, ok. I sorta thought we should probably finish the article and include important stuff like treatments, mastectomy, and the like before we discuss abortion and whether or not it causes breast cancer.--Elamdri 15:59, 10 April 2007 (EDT)

Hey Andy, if you can give me the stats about abortions and breast cancer, I can run them through SPSS and give you some graphs and correlation data and the like.--Elamdri 16:00, 10 April 2007 (EDT)

Who has a financial horse in this race?

Quote: I'm not going to allow concealment here... Aschlafly, above.

• http://www.abortionbreastcancer.com/press_releases/050328/index.htm
• http://hometown.aol.com/dfjoseph/abortionattorney.html
• http://www.jpands.org/vol10no1/aschlafly.pdf

And for full disclosure, I do not perform abortions or in any way profit from them. Should I go on?????? Censor away!!!--PalMD^talk 15:39, 10 April 2007 (EDT)

Awesome. Jrssr5 15:58, 10 April 2007 (EDT)

Goodness me - what was that I said about reports from people with no financial axe to grind?! Britinme 16:21 10 April 2007

Blimey! --Cgday 16:24, 10 April 2007 (EDT)

Awesome! No, Conservapedia doesn't censor. (To be clear -- in reference to Andy's blocking of Pete.) MyaR 17:20, 10 April 2007 (EDT)

Hate to ruin these liberals' fun here, but there's no money in standing up for the truth. I've never earned a dime from the abortion-breast cancer link, and don't expect to either. In contrast, there's over a billion dollars and much political power gained from concealing the harm to women.

I think PalMD is overusing his "MD" to conceal the truth from women, and I'm not going to allow that here. I'm concerned about the Essjay issue.--Aschlafly 17:24, 10 April 2007 (EDT)

If you've never earned a dime from the abortion-breast cancer link, that may well be because on the evidence (and I've read both sides of it) it doesn't look as if it would stand up in court. Britinme 17:48 10 April 2007 (EDT)

And I think you're overusing your little bit of power (in a place where most visitors, fortunately, won't fall for it, or did long ago) to provide ideologically based misinformation to women who desperately need good information in order to hold up the shaky foundations of your ego. Which, ultimately, is just sad and tragic. (Oh, and you should have someone proofread those links above -- lots of non-spell checkable typos, like 'and' instead of 'an'.) MyaR 17:33, 10 April 2007 (EDT)

em.. Essjay was a fraud, PalMD has provided both his real name and contact details - there seems to be no connection between the two. Since PalMD has been kind enough to provide us with details of his medical expertise - could you do the same? --Cgday 17:26, 10 April 2007 (EDT)

I don't claim to have special expertise in this area. The Essjay fraud consists of someone who claims expertise beyond what is justified.--Aschlafly 17:30, 10 April 2007 (EDT)

wow, I've seen people blocked for less. Flippin 17:32, 10 April 2007 (EDT) (My comment was removed, again, from a talk page so I am restoring it.)

I hate to cast doubt upon anyone, but Mr. Schlafly's reasoning is correct in this matter. I have other reasons than he has given for doubts but have not voiced these so for. I would find a phone call from Peter's office very convincing at this point. --Ed Poor 17:41, 10 April 2007 (EDT)

Ed, Peter has provided his proof it is on his talk page. I double checked him and his claims about who he is are true--TimS 17:50, 10 April 2007 (EDT)

If you are going to slander a man - best to come right out and say it Ed - are you saying his creditionals are fake or not? --Cgday 17:46, 10 April 2007 (EDT)

I don't claim to have special expertise in the medical aspect of this, but it's actually a question of statistics. There are some studies that show that women who've had an abortion are at higher risk for breast cancer. However, most studies show that they are not. That's the bottom line. Saying otherwise, when proof has been repeatedly given, is misleading. Murray 17:55, 10 April 2007 (EDT)

Murray, you're wrong about the studies, but you won't get blocked for being wrong. But someone who pretends to have expertise about something should be blocked when he is posting incorrect statements under the pretense of expertise. We are not going to allow a repeat of anything like the Essjay incident here.--Aschlafly 18:01, 10 April 2007 (EDT)

To be honest, it's the conflict of interest I think the papers are going to be more interested in - I've already seen on another forum, that a english newspaper is interested in this. --Cgday 18:03, 10 April 2007 (EDT)

How am I wrong about the studies Andy? You've mentioned that there are 16 that show a significant risk. I've listed (on my talk page) 24 that show there isn't. Perhaps you could clarify? Murray 18:04, 10 April 2007 (EDT)

I don't see where Andy has better credentials than anyone else to speak on this issue. Maybe I'm wrong, but he just keeps referring to the "essjay" thing which has nothign to do with this discussion. Can we move on and talk about credentials or forget the whole mess? Flippin 18:06, 10 April 2007 (EDT)

Getting back to the article - WHICH studies show a link between abortion and breast cancer? --Cgday 17:40, 10 April 2007 (EDT)

Read abortion without any preconceived opinions. Logic alone dictates that abortion increases breast cancer risk.--Aschlafly 18:06, 10 April 2007 (EDT)

"logic alone" is not a very good answer. sorry. Flippin 18:07, 10 April 2007 (EDT) "logic alone" suggests that the sun goes round the earth - because after all it looks as if we're standing still and the sun goes round us, doesn't it? But evidence suggests otherwise. At least, the kind of evidence that would stand up in court does. Britinme 18:12 10 April 2007 (EDT)

Looking here [1]: "Although the increase in risk was relatively low, (emphasis added) the high incidence of both breast cancer and induced abortion suggest a substantial impact of thousands of excess cases per year currently, and a potentially much greater impact in the next century, as the first cohort of women exposed to legal induced abortion continues to age." That's in the abstract. I don't have access to the article. I'm a little suspicous, however. Most studies would give some sort of correlation, and not an "odds ratio", whatever that means. Sterile 18:25, 10 April 2007 (EDT) Whoops--that is the article... Hmmm...Sterile 18:29, 10 April 2007 (EDT) OF course, there's this: [2]Sterile 18:30, 10 April 2007 (EDT)

Breast cancer occurs 100 times more frequently in women than in men... but...

No time to work on this myself right now, but... I know a man who was recently diagnosed with breast cancer, and he tells me that when it does occur in men it is apt to be very dangerous. He's getting regular radiation therapy now, and things seem to be going OK, but it's a very serious business. And men often miss or ignore the symptoms because they don't know it can occur in men. He says he's on a mission to convince men to perform regular breast self-examination. Dpbsmith 18:18, 10 April 2007 (EDT)