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Talk:Sturmabteilung

3,674 bytes added, 20:32, July 2, 2019
/* Freikorps political leanings question. */
:Friekorps essentially was a non-political organization. It had always existed, similar to what we would call veterans, militia, or mercenaries. Because the Treaty of Versailles had restricted the size of the German military, the Friekorps grew at this time consisting of de-mobilized unemployed veterans. Professional soldiers. Apolitical. But the times were chaotic, Germany had ceased to be monarchy, and most of Germany's enemies now seemed to be within - either collaborators with the Big Four Powers (France, England, Italy and the U.S.) or communist revolutionaries.
:Historically, ''Friekorps'' were loyal to the established monarchical system. When Germany become a Republic, most viewed the Wiemar constitution as a foreign conspiracy. If an unemployed veteran felt strongly about politics, say as a democrat or a communist, there were any number of political parties to join. Those veterans who allied with Hitler's nationalist sentiment, left the Friekorp and joined a Nazi paramilitary organization. Needless to say, the times were very confusing for the ''Friekorps'' leadership, cause there was a power vacuum at the top with when the Kaiser's abdicated. But the leadership regarded themselves as soldiers, not politicians.
:It's kind of a tragic tale, because these professional soldiers of all ranks were forced into retirement, could not find jobs, and hated the dirty business of politics. So while the leadership tried to remain loyal to Germany, it was forced to choose sides among competing factions, often getting entangled in political fights it had no interest in.
:The Wiemar constitution, as most German's Germans viewed it, was a foreign occupation government. The ''Friekorps'' had no love or loyalty to it. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|''Deep Six the Deep State!'']]</sup> 07:44, 2 July 2019 (EDT) ::Okay, fine by me. I was only confused because [https://howlingpixel.com/i-en/Germany%E2%80%93Soviet_Union_relations,_1918%E2%80%931941 that link I provided earlier] made it sound as though the ''Friekorps'' (at least the ones that squashed the Soviet-funded German Revolution) were a right-wing organization, yet I also knew that just because they were against the Soviets doesn't necessarily mean they were right-wing. Hitler and Rohm most certainly were against the Soviets, yet they were if anything left-wing. [[User:Pokeria1|Pokeria1]] ([[User talk:Pokeria1|talk]]) 08:05, 2 July 2019 (EDT):::If anything, you could call them patriots or 'nationalists', but 'nationalist' in the pre-Hitler pre-Trump sense.:::Gordon Craig's ''Politics of the Prussian Army'' would be an excellent source.:::The Second Reich lasted only 44 years (1871-1914), not even one lifetime. So what books in 1919 called "German nationalism" is very different from our understanding today. German "nationalist" identity was forged in that period, modeled on France nationalism of the Napoleanic era (something France always feared). At the time of Napolean, there was no German national identity; at the time of unification, Austria and Switzerland were excluded from German national identity.:::The Friekorp movement existed among several German states for centuries. Even during World War I, however, there was no integration of troops. Hitler, for example, was an Austrian, serving in a Bavarian regiment, under Prussian officer's command. By 1919, there was somewhat of a German national identity among veterans, but there still were separate Bavarian Friekorps, Prussian Friekorps, Hessian Friekorps, East Prussian (Lithuanian) Freikorps, etc. There was no unified, consolidated movement. So even calling them "nationalist' can be questionable. It was Hitler, the Austrian, preaching German nationalism, that called out many from the various units into Nazi paramilitary organizations. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|''Deep Six the Deep State!'']]</sup> 15:22, 2 July 2019 (EDT) :::We see the same tribal phenomenon in Iraq and Afghanistan, and U.S efforts to build an "Iraqi National Army" and "Afghan National Army." The situation there, and in the Second Reich, was like the Union Army of the Civil War were each state sent it's own regiments. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|''Deep Six the Deep State!'']]</sup> 15:30, 2 July 2019 (EDT) :::In an interesting, yet totally unrelated aspect mentioned in the link you provided: Count Mirbach's assassin's first wife was [[Elizabeth Zarubina]], who recruited Robert Oppenheimer to cooperate with Soviet intelligence. Her second husband, [[Vasily Zarubin]] was in charge of all Soviet intelligence in North America during World War II, which included the Rosenbergs, [[Alger Hiss]], [[Harry Dexter White]], and the successful efforts to steal Manhattan Project secrets. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|''Deep Six the Deep State!'']]</sup> 16:12, 2 July 2019 (EDT) :::Freikorp in a sense could be likened to jihadis - veteran jihadis. There is a multitude of local militia jihadis, both Sunni and Shia, all over the Middle East, the Chechen Republic, Afghanistan, Pakistan, and the Philippines. These veterans are the targets of recruiting by groups like Al Qaeda or the Islamic Republic of Iran with a more global perspective of who the enemy is. They target experienced fighters and provide political/ideological brainwashing beyond their narrow, local, hometown perspectives. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|''Deep Six the Deep State!'']]</sup> 16:30, 2 July 2019 (EDT)
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