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Line 37: − + − According to Andy McIntosh, the principles of thermodynamics do not allow a new function using raised free energy levels to be achieved without new machinery. And new machines are not made by simply adding energy to existing machines. The whole point is that without information in a system for a machine it is not possible to form a machine. Without machines already available it is not possible to form a machine and thsi establishes the problem for the [[abiogenesis]].<ref>{{cite web|title=McIntosh, Dawkins and thermodynamics|author=|publisher=|url=http://www.truthinscience.org.uk/tis2/index.php/news-blog-mainmenu-63.html?start=68|quote=}}</ref>+ − + Line 45:
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Line 64: − + − − <ref>Compare: "… there are no known violations of the second law of thermodynamics. Ordinarily the second law is stated for isolated systems, but the second law applies equally well to open systems. … There is somehow associated with the field of far-from-equilibrium thermodynamics the notion that the second law of thermodynamics fails for such systems. It is important to make sure that this error does not perpetuate itself." John Ross, Chemical and Engineering News, 7 July 1980, p. 40:</ref>
User:AK/Objections to evolution (view source)
Revision as of 21:46, December 1, 2012
, 21:46, December 1, 2012→Violation of the second law of thermodynamics
===Violation of the second law of thermodynamics===
===Violation of the second law of thermodynamics===
It has been objected that if the living world has come about by undirected natural processes, the thermodynamic problem needs to be overcome.
It has been objected that if the living world has come about by undirected natural processes as proposed in evolutionary theories, the thermodynamic problem needs to be overcome.
The objection is that the principles of thermodynamics do not allow a new function using raised free energy levels to be achieved without new machinery. And new machines are not made by simply adding energy to existing machines. The whole point is that without information in a system for a machine it is not possible to form a machine. Without machines already available it is not possible to form a machine and this establishes the problem for the [[abiogenesis]].<ref>{{cite web|title=McIntosh, Dawkins and thermodynamics|author=|publisher=|url=http://www.truthinscience.org.uk/tis2/index.php/news-blog-mainmenu-63.html?start=68|quote=}}</ref>
{{#tag:ref|cf."Entropy can be forced to decrease in open system by applying enough external energy and information in an organized form."<ref>{{cite book|author=Per A. Larsen|title=Darwins lære faller |pages=127|isbn=82-7199-2228|url=|quote=|language=Norwegian}}</ref>|group=note}}
In response to criticism that evolutionary scenarios for origin of life or for new functions would be violating the second law of thermodynamics the evolutionists like Jason Rosenhouse often assure that natural forces routinely lead to decreases in entropy:
In response to criticism that evolutionary scenarios for origin of life or for new functions would be violating the second law of thermodynamics the evolutionists like Jason Rosenhouse often assure that natural forces routinely lead to decreases in entropy:
|format=PDF|title=How Anti-Evolutionists Abuse Mathematics (published letter to the editor) |year=2001|last=Rosenhouse|first=J|publisher=The Mathematical Intelligencer|volume=23|issue=4|pages=3–8|accessdate=}}</ref></blockquote>
|format=PDF|title=How Anti-Evolutionists Abuse Mathematics (published letter to the editor) |year=2001|last=Rosenhouse|first=J|publisher=The Mathematical Intelligencer|volume=23|issue=4|pages=3–8|accessdate=}}</ref></blockquote>
This is however refuted with following argument
This is however refuted with following argument:
The ice example is thermodynamically irrelevant to the origin of life. When ice freezes, it releases heat energy into the environment. This causes an entropy increase in the surroundings. If the temperature is low enough, this entropy increase is greater than the loss of entropy in forming the crystal. But the formation of proteins and nucleic acids from amino acids and nucleotides not only lowers their entropy, but it removes heat energy (and entropy) from their surroundings. Thus ordinary amino acids and nucleotides will not spontaneously form proteins and nucleic acids at any temperature. Also we should distinguish between order and complexity. Crystals are ordered; life is complex. To illustrate: a periodic (repeating) signal, e.g. ABABABABABAB, is an example of order. However, it carries little information: only ‘AB’, and ‘print 6 times’. A crystal is analogous to that sequence; it is a regular, repeating network of atoms. Like that sequence, a crystal contains little information: the co-ordinates of a few atoms (i.e. those which make up the unit cell), and instructions ‘more of the same’ x times. If a crystal is broken, smaller but otherwise identical crystals result. Conversely, breaking proteins, DNA or living structures results in destruction, because the information in them is greater than in their parts. A crystal forms because this regular arrangement, determined by directional forces in the atoms, has the lowest energy. Thus the maximum amount of heat is released into the surroundings, so the overall entropy is increased....proteins and DNA are also non-random aperiodic sequences. The sequences are not caused by the properties of the constituent amino acids and nucleotides themselves. This is a huge contrast to crystal structures, which are caused by the properties of their constituents.<ref>{{cite web|author= Jonathan Sarfati|title=The Second Law of Thermodynamics:Answers to Critics|publisher=|url=http://creation.com/the-second-law-of-thermodynamics-answers-to-critics}}</ref>
Further on, evolutionists often try to make a point that this objection is based on a manifestation of the law only applicable to isolated systems thus evolutionary scenarios for origin of the life would not be a subject to to it. This however contradicts the understanding of this law outlined in the scientific literature: "… there are no known violations of the second law of thermodynamics. Ordinarily the second law is stated for isolated systems, but the second law applies equally well to open systems. … There is somehow associated with the field of far-from-equilibrium thermodynamics the notion that the second law of thermodynamics fails for such systems. It is important to make sure that this error does not perpetuate itself."<ref>{{cite |author=John Ross |publisher=Chemical and Engineering News |date=7 July 1980 |pages=40)}}</ref>
Further on, evolutionists often try to make a point that this objection is based on a manifestation of the law only applicable to isolated systems thus evolutionary scenarios for origin of the life would not be a subject to to it. This however contradicts the understanding of this law outlined in the scientific literature: "… there are no known violations of the second law of thermodynamics. Ordinarily the second law is stated for isolated systems, but the second law applies equally well to open systems. … There is somehow associated with the field of far-from-equilibrium thermodynamics the notion that the second law of thermodynamics fails for such systems. It is important to make sure that this error does not perpetuate itself."<ref>{{cite |author=John Ross |publisher=Chemical and Engineering News |date=7 July 1980 |pages=40)}}</ref>
11. plastidial DNA<br />
11. plastidial DNA<br />
12. plastoglobule (drop of lipids)
12. plastoglobule (drop of lipids)
]][[Andrew McIntosh (professor)|A.McIntosh]] as creationist however declares that the decrease in [[entropy]] is generally possible, but there are [[nanomachines]] (which he differentiates from [[natural forces]] and attributes to outcome of [[design]] thus [[intelligence]]) necessary to achieve for that effect, and he even tries to demonstrate it with examples that the [[chemical bonds]] between [[nucleotides]] in [[DNA]] require an extra so called [[Gibbs free energy]] to take part in the process, an this extra energy can be provided in his view only by means of these [[molecular machines]]. He argues that if, for example, [[guanine]] and [[cytosine]], i.e. [[nucleotides]] paired in DNA, would be placed in a [[Petri dish]], they would refrain from bonding together as there is no machine (such as [[Molecular tweezer]]) to provide a free energy in a specific way to enable that bond to take place. Further on he points out that after [[living organism]] dies and these machines cease working, the DNA starts falling apart even while still being exposed to extra [[energy]]. Thus, he believes [[natural selection]] has no power to create new functional structures such as [[DNA]] or information [[biopolymer]], respectively, without which fertilized eggs would not turn into babies. Likewise, he refers to [[photosynthesis]] as to process that again requires functional machine (biological mini-factory) for which he holds the leaf containing [[photosynthesis#Photosynthetic membranes and organelles|photosynthetic membranes and organelles]] as a whole capable to raise locally a [[Gibbs free energy]], thus effectively catalyzing the chemical reaction and enabling photosynthesis to happen.<ref>McIntosh, A.C.: Functional Information and Entropy in living system, pp.115-126, Design and Nature III: Comparing Design in Nature with Science and Engineering , Vol 87 of WIT Transactions on Ecology and the environment, Editor Brebbia C.A., WIT Press, 2006.</ref>
]][[Andrew McIntosh (professor)|A.McIntosh]] as creationist however declares that the decrease in [[entropy]] is generally possible, but there are [[nanomachines]] (which he differentiates from [[natural forces]] and attributes to outcome of [[design]] thus [[intelligence]]) necessary to achieve for that effect. He even tries to demonstrate the point with examples including the [[chemical bonds]] between [[nucleotides]] in [[DNA]] requiring an extra so called [[Gibbs free energy]] to take part in the process, an this extra energy can be provided in his view only by means of these [[molecular machines]]. He argues that if, for example, [[guanine]] and [[cytosine]], i.e. [[nucleotides]] paired in DNA, would be placed in a [[Petri dish]], they would refrain from bonding together as there is no machine (such as [[Molecular tweezer]]) to provide a free energy in a specific way to enable that bond to take place. Further on he points out that after [[living organism]] dies and these machines cease working, the DNA starts falling apart even while still being exposed to extra [[energy]]. Thus, he believes [[natural selection]] has no power to create new functional structures such as [[DNA]] or information [[biopolymer]], respectively, without which fertilized eggs would not turn into babies. Likewise, he refers to [[photosynthesis]] as to process that again requires functional machine (biological mini-factory) for which he holds the leaf containing [[photosynthesis#Photosynthetic membranes and organelles|photosynthetic membranes and organelles]] as a whole capable to raise locally a [[Gibbs free energy]], thus effectively catalyzing the chemical reaction and enabling photosynthesis to happen.<ref>McIntosh, A.C.: Functional Information and Entropy in living system, pp.115-126, Design and Nature III: Comparing Design in Nature with Science and Engineering , Vol 87 of WIT Transactions on Ecology and the environment, Editor Brebbia C.A., WIT Press, 2006.</ref>
== References ==
== References ==
{{Reflist}}
{{Reflist}}