Changes

:::Hitler came to power as a result of spiritual, moral and financial bankruptcy. Liberalism appears to be heading farther and farther down that road. And the countries external debt to GDP ratios listed on that website is one piece of evidence that liberal governments have been heading in the wrong direction. [[User:Conservative|Conservative]] 04:49, 3 March 2013 (EST)

:::Hitler came to power as a result of spiritual, moral and financial bankruptcy. Liberalism appears to be heading farther and farther down that road. And the countries external debt to GDP ratios listed on that website is one piece of evidence that liberal governments have been heading in the wrong direction. [[User:Conservative|Conservative]] 04:49, 3 March 2013 (EST)

:::Before getting into this debate, I'd just like to announce that DonnyC's incivility on this talk page has managed to incur him yet another block. Due to his past litany of offenses (see his block log) he's suspended for a month, and I would have given him a lifetime ban if it hadn't been for the fact that two of his ardent patrons are endowed with blocking rights and can therefore revert my decisions.

Before getting into this debate, I'd just like to announce that DonnyC's incivility on this talk page has managed to incur him yet another block. Due to his past litany of offenses (see his block log) he's suspended for a month, and I would have given him a lifetime ban if it hadn't been for the fact that two of his ardent patrons are endowed with blocking rights and can therefore revert my decisions.

:::Anyway... the conservative philosopher [[John Locke]] (whose writings had tremendous influence on the founding fathers) saw the rights to liberty and property as flowing from the man's right to his life; therefore attacks on one's property and liberty are attacks on life as well. To quote from his ''[http://www.constitution.org/jl/2ndtr03.htm Second Treatise of Civil Government]'':  

Anyway... the conservative philosopher [[John Locke]] (whose writings had tremendous influence on the founding fathers) saw the rights to liberty and property as flowing from the man's right to his life; therefore attacks on one's property and liberty are attacks on life as well. To quote from his ''[http://www.constitution.org/jl/2ndtr03.htm Second Treatise of Civil Government]'':  

:::"it being reasonable and just, I should have a right to destroy that which threatens me with destruction: for, by the fundamental law of nature, man being to be preserved as much as possible, when all cannot be preserved, the safety of the innocent is to be preferred: and one may destroy a man who makes war upon him, or has discovered an enmity to his being [...] And hence it is, that he who attempts to get another man into his absolute power, does thereby put himself into a state of war with him; it being to be understood as a declaration of a design upon his life: for I have reason to conclude, that he who would get me into his power without my consent, would use me as he pleased when he had got me there, and destroy me too when he had a fancy to it [...] This makes it lawful for a man to kill a thief, who has not in the least hurt him, nor declared any design upon his life, any farther than, by the use of force, so to get him in his power, as to take away his money, or what he pleases, from him; because using force, where he has no right, to get me into his power, let his pretence be what it will, I have no reason to suppose, that he, who would take away my liberty, would not, when he had me in his power, take away every thing else." [it should be noted though that the Locke didn't believe that citizens of states have the right to judge and punish thieves by themselves. Only people living in the state of nature have that right. For more about that concept read the [http://www.constitution.org/jl/2ndtr02.htm first chapter] of his ''Second Treatise''.]

"it being reasonable and just, I should have a right to destroy that which threatens me with destruction: for, by the fundamental law of nature, man being to be preserved as much as possible, when all cannot be preserved, the safety of the innocent is to be preferred: and one may destroy a man who makes war upon him, or has discovered an enmity to his being [...] And hence it is, that he who attempts to get another man into his absolute power, does thereby put himself into a state of war with him; it being to be understood as a declaration of a design upon his life: for I have reason to conclude, that he who would get me into his power without my consent, would use me as he pleased when he had got me there, and destroy me too when he had a fancy to it [...] This makes it lawful for a man to kill a thief, who has not in the least hurt him, nor declared any design upon his life, any farther than, by the use of force, so to get him in his power, as to take away his money, or what he pleases, from him; because using force, where he has no right, to get me into his power, let his pretence be what it will, I have no reason to suppose, that he, who would take away my liberty, would not, when he had me in his power, take away every thing else." [it should be noted though that the Locke didn't believe that citizens of states have the right to judge and punish thieves by themselves. Only people living in the state of nature have that right. For more about that concept read the [http://www.constitution.org/jl/2ndtr02.htm first chapter] of his ''Second Treatise''.]

:::So the bolshevik unjustified taking of private property was an attack on life just the same as the Holocaust. The Nazis were socialists just like the bolsheviks, Idi Amin and Pharaoh Ramses. Nobody who lives under a dictatorship can really be said to have private property. Sure, in some dictatorship there are businessmen and industrialists and entrepenuers, but they do not really own the property the use to make a living, as the government can take it away from them at any given moment.

So the bolshevik unjustified taking of private property was an attack on life just the same as the Holocaust. The Nazis were socialists just like the bolsheviks, Idi Amin and Pharaoh Ramses. Nobody who lives under a dictatorship can really be said to have private property. Sure, in some dictatorship there are businessmen and industrialists and entrepenuers, but they do not really own the property the use to make a living, as the government can take it away from them at any given moment.

:::Furthermore, just like the bolsheviks plundered the private property of their sucjects, so did the Nazis plundered the property of many of their victims. See: [http://www.yadvashem.org/odot_pdf/Microsoft%20Word%20-%202277.pdf] [http://www.archives.gov/research/holocaust/records-and-research/documenting-nazi-plunder-of-european-art.html] - [[User:Markman|Markman]] 07:39, 3 March 2013 (EST)

Furthermore, just like the bolsheviks plundered the private property of their sucjects, so did the Nazis plundered the property of many of their victims. See: [http://www.yadvashem.org/odot_pdf/Microsoft%20Word%20-%202277.pdf] [http://www.archives.gov/research/holocaust/records-and-research/documenting-nazi-plunder-of-european-art.html] - [[User:Markman|Markman]] 07:39, 3 March 2013 (EST)