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Talk:Biblical scientific foreknowledge (view source)
Revision as of 14:21, March 19, 2016
, 14:21, March 19, 2016→Need to discuss further on the talk page: @Andy
::If you have something substantive in rebuttal, then please provide it without the ad hominems.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] ([[User talk:Aschlafly|talk]]) 23:34, 18 March 2016 (EDT)
::If you have something substantive in rebuttal, then please provide it without the ad hominems.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] ([[User talk:Aschlafly|talk]]) 23:34, 18 March 2016 (EDT)
:::#''"It is difficult to sort through the substance from the silly put-downs"'' It took you '''eight months''' to delete the sentence ''But "λέγω" -- the Greek term used for said in some versions -- does not appear in the Greek above'' from your [[Essay:Calming the Storm]]! Perhaps I could have shortened this time if I had sugar-coated my contempt by flattery, but I think that this would have been dishonest: not to spot that εἶπεν is a form of λέγω is a school-boy's error, and deserves school-yard's mockery.
:::#''"the bottom line is this: according to even the limited view of Strong's, λέγω is translated as "I say, speak; I '''''mean''''', mention, tell." [http://biblehub.com/greek/3004.htm] (emphasis added)."'' λέγω is the nineth most used word in the Greek New Testament. It is the most used non-auxiliary verb - and εἰμί ("I am") is only used slightly more often (2,460 vs. 2,350 times.) Why? We talked about this above: as Biblical Greek has no quotation marks, direct speech is indicated by words like λέγω. It is used in this sense a couple of hundred times in the Gospel of Mark, even in the verses directly before and after Mark 4:39. It would be quite dishonest of Mark to use it in this single verse in a way it isn't used elsewhere in his Gospel, and in a way it hadn't been used for hundreds of years! Therefore all the translations which Strong is proposing describe verbal utterances.
:::#''"Strong, of course, was no modern physicist, and he was hampered by his own lack of abstraction. Strong's goes further to admit that "légō (originally, 'lay down to sleep,'" - which fits perfectly in the calming of the storm."'' There is nothing abstract in this glorified quotation mark λέγω. If I go to a courthouse in New Jersey and present myself as a "solicitor", you have every right to believe that I'm misrepresenting myself as a laywer - even if I say that I use the word in its original sense - as the French did a couple of hundred years ago, and that I'm meaning "troublemaker", not "lawyer". The same holds for λέγω: in the context of the Gospel it means something like "to say", and no one but you would think of the meaning "to lay down to sleep".
:::#''"There is no reason to think that Mark, who was not there on the boat, was precisely quoting Jesus rather than describing His thoughts."'' There is every reason to think that Mark described the events and dialogues '''''faithfully''''' as they were reported to him. Only very rarely '''''His thoughts''''' or feelings are described in the Gospels: just when they are obvious from his actions and words.
:::#''"If you have something substantive in rebuttal, then please provide it without the ad hominems."'' Well, for substance, take a look at the second point of this enumeration - or read [[#Mark 4:38-41]]. But this is indeed a very personal matter, so "ad hominems" are of relevance:
:::##your ideas and translations are based on your personal insights - like your translation of [[Son of Man]] as "the Son, a human being", or your Biblical rebuttals to the theory of relativity. Until now, only the likes of [[PetyrB]] have been claimed to be able to follow your lines of thoughts when it comes to these insights.
:::##you have shown your lack of Greek time and time again. You claim that you just don't have this "literal and narrow view of the Greek" - but this "literal and narrow view" comes from knowing the basics, and being actually capable of translating a Greek text, and not only paraphrasing the KJB with help from a glossary.
:::It is frustrating to wait for eight months for the correction of a silly mistake (see the first point) - there can be no surprise that I become frustrated and cranky, and perhaps even more snappish than necessary. But the "ad hominems", the personal remarks above are rooted in my experience of editing Conservapedia over the last years. I'll be happy if I'm proven wrong: you just have to come up with a well-thought reply, addressing each of my points in this sections and the sections above sincerely (i.e., other than by just repeating "λέγω can mean ''lay to rest''") and diligently. It is an important matter, and it should be discussed in depths, or not at all.
:::--[[User:AugustO|AugustO]] ([[User talk:AugustO|talk]]) 10:21, 19 March 2016 (EDT)