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Yes, Osama bin Laden was killed during a raid that occurred on May 1, 2011 in Abottabad, Pakistan.  One argument made in opposition is that there are no photos, so how can we prove he's dead?  The same people who advance this talking point fail to show any real evidence that he is either alive somewhere, or died years ago.   

Yes, Osama bin Laden was killed during a raid that occurred on May 1, 2011 in Abottabad, Pakistan.  One argument made in opposition is that there are no photos, so how can we prove he's dead?  The same people who advance this talking point fail to show any real evidence that he is either alive somewhere, or died years ago.   

One example is the claim that Benazir Bhutto told BBC in an interview that he was murdered in 2007.  However, in an interview a day later, when asked where bin Laden is, [http://edition.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0711/03/cnr.06.html she told CNN that General Musharraf knew where bin Laden was and was hiding him.]  She also spoke of bin Laden being alive to Greta Van Susteren in November of 2007 after the BBC interview, to NPR, and to the BBC again.  I believe the explanation that there was an error in translation, or she simply misspoke, as Bhutto was actually referring to Khalid Sheikh Muhammad's murder of Daniel Pearl.  Besides, if I was interviewing someone and they told me that they knew bin Laden was murdered, I certainly would ask follow-up questions or investigate further.  You're also assuming that multiple media outlets across the world colluded together to "hide the truth."

One example is the claim that Benazir Bhutto told BBC in an interview that he was murdered in 2007.  However, in an interview a day later, when asked where bin Laden is, [http://edition.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0711/03/cnr.06.html she told CNN that General Musharraf knew where bin Laden was and was hiding him.]  She also spoke of bin Laden being alive to Greta Van Susteren in November 2007 after the BBC interview, to NPR, and to the BBC again.  I believe the explanation that there was an error in translation, or she simply misspoke, as Bhutto was actually referring to Khalid Sheikh Muhammad's murder of Daniel Pearl.  Besides, if I was interviewing someone and they told me that they knew bin Laden was murdered, I certainly would ask follow-up questions or investigate further.  You're also assuming that multiple media outlets across the world colluded together to "hide the truth."

Furthermore, if he is dead, where have the movies and recordings been coming from where he mentions current and ongoing events?  Granted, he could have pre-recorded a message of his that was released on the 60th anniversary of Israel prior to his death, but in another, he mentions the election of Barack Obama.  That assumes he was at least alive until 2007-2008.  Additionally, these tapes have been verified as bin Laden, not only by the American government, but a variety of governments worldwide.   

Furthermore, if he is dead, where have the movies and recordings been coming from where he mentions current and ongoing events?  Granted, he could have pre-recorded a message of his that was released on the 60th anniversary of Israel prior to his death, but in another, he mentions the election of Barack Obama.  That assumes he was at least alive until 2007-2008.  Additionally, these tapes have been verified as bin Laden, not only by the American government, but a variety of governments worldwide.   

I suspect that he was either killed long before Obama became president, or that he was not actually killed at all, but captured by Seal Team Six.--[[User:VPropp|VPropp]] 13:18, 11 May 2011 (EDT)

I suspect that he was either killed long before Obama became president, or that he was not actually killed at all, but captured by Seal Team Six.--[[User:VPropp|VPropp]] 13:18, 11 May 2011 (EDT)

:@MarkN85: Thanks for participating. You made some interesting arguments. I would like to address some of your points:<br />

:@MarkN85: Thanks for participating. You made some interesting arguments. I would like to address some of your points:

:Let's start with a misunderstanding. In my very short text, I never once mentioned the thought of a "liberal media conspiracy"; I didn't even mention the media at all. So quite a few of your points are kind of moot.<br />

:Let's start with a misunderstanding. In my very short text, I never once mentioned the thought of a "liberal media conspiracy"; I didn't even mention the media at all. So quite a few of your points are kind of moot.

:As for the videos: The videos are to some part, what ignited my doubts. The fact that they just very conveniently explain, why in some videos Osama has a black beard again, irritates me. Why would a muslim man dye his beard? Just for vanity? In the arabic culture a grey beard is a sign of wisdom (not that Osama is/was a wise man). The videos could have been found in another Al-Quaeda hideout, or in the very hideout in Abbottabad, which still does not prove that Osama was killed there. Btw: Did you look at the timeline of the Osama videos and the doubts about their authenticity? In 2007, after three years of video silence, there was a new Bin Laden video, which froze the picture of him, every time he mentioned current events. Could it be that he has/had a voice double?<br />

:As for the videos: The videos are to some part, what ignited my doubts. The fact that they just very conveniently explain, why in some videos Osama has a black beard again, irritates me. Why would a muslim man dye his beard? Just for vanity? In the arabic culture a grey beard is a sign of wisdom (not that Osama is/was a wise man). The videos could have been found in another Al-Quaeda hideout, or in the very hideout in Abbottabad, which still does not prove that Osama was killed there. Btw: Did you look at the timeline of the Osama videos and the doubts about their authenticity? In 2007, after three years of video silence, there was a new Bin Laden video, which froze the picture of him, every time he mentioned current events. Could it be that he has/had a voice double?

:As for the motivation of Obama to lie about the whole thing: Does Obama actually need a reason to lie? But seriously, there is no direct positive effect for Obama yet, apart from the slight bump in the polls. You're right. But the alleged death of Osama opens up a way to withdraw from Afghanistan and possibly Iraq. Obama will of course wait a bit longer till he drops that political bomb, which will give him more than a slight bump in the polls.<br />

:As for the motivation of Obama to lie about the whole thing: Does Obama actually need a reason to lie? But seriously, there is no direct positive effect for Obama yet, apart from the slight bump in the polls. You're right. But the alleged death of Osama opens up a way to withdraw from Afghanistan and possibly Iraq. Obama will of course wait a bit longer till he drops that political bomb, which will give him more than a slight bump in the polls.

:But in the end you're right. I can't proof that Osama is still alive or died years ago. But shouldn't the burden of proof be on the one who makes the claim in the first place? Why does Obama not publish proof that can be understood by the wider public and especially by the arab people?<br /> Btw: How do you explain the burial at sea, when the sons of Hussein were presented in an open casket?

:But in the end you're right. I can't proof that Osama is still alive or died years ago. But shouldn't the burden of proof be on the one who makes the claim in the first place? Why does Obama not publish proof that can be understood by the wider public and especially by the arab people?<br /> Btw: How do you explain the burial at sea, when the sons of Hussein were presented in an open casket?

::I have no idea why he dyes his beard, but [http://www.seattlepi.com/default/article/Sen-Osama-photos-pretty-graphic-1376666.php Senator Jim Inhofe] and [http://www.wday.com/event/article/id/46814/group/News/Representative Michelle Bachmann] have seen the actual photos at the CIA, agree with the decision not to release them to the public, and his beard is dyed in those photos. --[[User:MarkN85|MarkN85]] 17:03, 12 May 2011 (EDT)

::I have no idea why he dyes his beard, but [http://www.seattlepi.com/default/article/Sen-Osama-photos-pretty-graphic-1376666.php Senator Jim Inhofe] and [http://www.wday.com/event/article/id/46814/group/News/Representative Michelle Bachmann] have seen the actual photos at the CIA, agree with the decision not to release them to the public, and his beard is dyed in those photos. --[[User:MarkN85|MarkN85]] 17:03, 12 May 2011 (EDT)

::: There were many valuable point made. Thank you for participating. I'll deal with them one for one. Please inform me if I forgot something.<br />

::: There were many valuable point made. Thank you for participating. I'll deal with them one for one. Please inform me if I forgot something.

:::As for the moon landing and 9/11: We got evidence of those events. Evidence that was available to the public and could thus be scrutinized by the [[best of the public]]. So far the only "evidence" the public got was the oral assurance of the Obama-administration.<br />

:::As for the moon landing and 9/11: We got evidence of those events. Evidence that was available to the public and could thus be scrutinized by the [[best of the public]]. So far the only "evidence" the public got was the oral assurance of the Obama-administration.

:::Al-Quaeda confirming Osamas death: If Osama was killed/died years ago, or was captured alive by the SEALS, why would Al-Quaeda say so? If Osama died years ago, the Al-Quaeda would have lied to their followers, which would nit be good for them. If Osama was captured, that would be shameful for them, since he didn't die a martyr. It is advantegous for Al-Quaeda to say that Osama was killed (in action). Plus: Messages posted on the internet are not exactly the most reliable source, since they don't have to be posted by the higher up.<br />

:::Al-Quaeda confirming Osamas death: If Osama was killed/died years ago, or was captured alive by the SEALS, why would Al-Quaeda say so? If Osama died years ago, the Al-Quaeda would have lied to their followers, which would nit be good for them. If Osama was captured, that would be shameful for them, since he didn't die a martyr. It is advantegous for Al-Quaeda to say that Osama was killed (in action). Plus: Messages posted on the internet are not exactly the most reliable source, since they don't have to be posted by the higher up.

:::As for Inhofe and Bachmann seeing the pictures: I think that is clearly a step in the right direction. BUT are Bachmann and Inhofe specialists in photoshop-technology? Would they be able to tell a well faked picture apart from a real one? I know I couldn't. And that's why I would like to see the pictures published, so they can be scrutinized by experts. Btw: Inhofe would also like to see at least the photos of the washed Osama published.--[[User:VPropp|VPropp]] 11:55, 13 May 2011 (EDT)

:::As for Inhofe and Bachmann seeing the pictures: I think that is clearly a step in the right direction. BUT are Bachmann and Inhofe specialists in photoshop-technology? Would they be able to tell a well faked picture apart from a real one? I know I couldn't. And that's why I would like to see the pictures published, so they can be scrutinized by experts. Btw: Inhofe would also like to see at least the photos of the washed Osama published.--[[User:VPropp|VPropp]] 11:55, 13 May 2011 (EDT)