Changes

::::Never mind, leave alone the terrorists so they can kill the innocent. Was there recruitment prior to 9/11?--[[User:Jpatt|jp]] 23:53, 15 May 2007 (EDT)

::::Never mind, leave alone the terrorists so they can kill the innocent. Was there recruitment prior to 9/11?--[[User:Jpatt|jp]] 23:53, 15 May 2007 (EDT)

I think that only American citizens should be protected by the constitution (even the 8th ammendment). We are better than the terrorists because they attacked us, and because we are the ones who will eventually win. I don't think that we should use anything that I personally would define as torture (sticking splinters up their fingernails, skining and salting them, etc.) but we could definately be doing a lot better to persuade them to confess. I suggest that we:

I think that only American citizens should be protected by the constitution (even the 8th amendment). We are better than the terrorists because they attacked us, and because we are the ones who will eventually win. I don't think that we should use anything that I personally would define as torture (sticking splinters up their fingernails, skining and salting them, etc.) but we could definitely be doing a lot better to persuade them to confess. I suggest that we:

# Regularly starve them for a week or so; nothing life threatening but we don't want them to get comfortable.  

# Regularly starve them for a week or so; nothing life-threatening but we don't want them to get comfortable.  

# when we ''do'' feed them it should be nothing very good.  

# when we ''do'' feed them it should be nothing very good.  

# Put them in solitary confinment; we might do this already but I wouldn't know.

# Put them in solitary confinment; we might do this already but I wouldn't know.

# We can certainly ''pretend'' that we're going to do something cruel. I suggest we have somebody realy good at special effects make a video to show them of some horrible torture method. --[[User:BenjaminS|BenjaminS]] 09:25, 6 April 2007 (EDT)

# We can certainly ''pretend'' that we're going to do something cruel. I suggest we have somebody really good at special effects make a video to show them of some horrible torture method. --[[User:BenjaminS|BenjaminS]] 09:25, 6 April 2007 (EDT)

:I am all for that benjamin, but to the left, everything you mention is cruel and unusual punishment, a.k.a torture. --[[User:Jpatt|jp]] 10:46, 6 April 2007 (EDT)

:I am all for that benjamin, but to the left, everything you mention is cruel and unusual punishment, a.k.a torture. --[[User:Jpatt|jp]] 10:46, 6 April 2007 (EDT)

:Maybe we should abide by the laws we write and the treaties we sign, hm? [[User:Myk|Myk]] 09:56, 6 April 2007 (EDT)

:Maybe we should abide by the laws we write and the treaties we sign, hm? [[User:Myk|Myk]] 09:56, 6 April 2007 (EDT)

I didn't know that we signed any treaties with radical islam. --[[User:BenjaminS|BenjaminS]] 11:00, 6 April 2007 (EDT)

I didn't know that we signed any treaties with radical Islam. --[[User:BenjaminS|BenjaminS]] 11:00, 6 April 2007 (EDT)

::that'll probably require one-on-one therapy session with a psychologist over a 2 year treatment, ha ha ha. [[User:Jaques|Jaques]] 10:06, 6 April 2007 (EDT)

::that'll probably require one-on-one therapy session with a psychologist over a 2 year treatment, ha ha ha. [[User:Jaques|Jaques]] 10:06, 6 April 2007 (EDT)

Torture is also defined in the Geneva Convention.  The fuzzy area is who the Convention covers, that's the real line that's been blurred.

Torture is also defined in the Geneva Convention.  The fuzzy area is who the Convention covers, that's the real line that's been blurred.

And to Jpatt's original comment, the liberals didn't blur the line of what's torture, that's totally up to interpertation.  Same as hazing laws in the US, they're vaguely worded to allow the legal system greater leeway in prosecuting and protecting rights. [[User:Jrssr5|Jrssr5]] 10:35, 6 April 2007 (EDT)

And to Jpatt's original comment, the liberals didn't blur the line of what's torture, that's totally up to interpretation.  Same as hazing laws in the US, they're vaguely worded to allow the legal system greater leeway in prosecuting and protecting rights. [[User:Jrssr5|Jrssr5]] 10:35, 6 April 2007 (EDT)

When liberals accuse the USA of torture, it is defintely been blurred because a slow painful death to me is torture, not inprisonment by America.--[[User:Jpatt|jp]] 10:50, 6 April 2007 (EDT)

When liberals accuse the USA of torture, it is defintely been blurred because a slow painful death to me is torture, not inprisonment by America.--[[User:Jpatt|jp]] 10:50, 6 April 2007 (EDT)

Ah, "Innocent 'til Proven Guilty" is for wusses, eh?

Ah, "Innocent 'til Proven Guilty" is for wusses, eh?

You _are_ aware that some of the prisoners in Guantanamo Bay have had to be released after several '''years''' of imprisonment, right?  [http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/3501910.stm]  Since the US Government generally (I hope) isn't in the habit of locking people up just for the fun of it, I think it's safe to assume that someone THOUGHT they 'knew' these guys were Terrorists, and turned out to be wrong.   

You _are_ aware that some of the prisoners in Guantanamo Bay have had to be released after several '''years''' of imprisonment, right?  [http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/3501910.stm]  Since the US Government generally (I hope) isn't in the habit of locking people up just for the fun of it, I think it's safe to assume that someone THOUGHT they 'knew' these guys were Terrorists, and turned out to be wrong.   

It's hilarious to see members of the Small Government Party arguing for the infallability and unwavering righteousness of a bunch of bureaucrats.  Bureaucrats with GUNS, but bureaucrats nonetheless.  --[[User:BDobbs|BDobbs]] 21:26, 11 April 2007 (EDT)

It's hilarious to see members of the Small Government Party arguing for the infallibility and unwavering righteousness of a bunch of bureaucrats.  Bureaucrats with GUNS, but bureaucrats nonetheless.  --[[User:BDobbs|BDobbs]] 21:26, 11 April 2007 (EDT)

And for the 'definition of torture', why not break out the ol' Ouija board and ask some of the Suspected Terrorists who died under the tender care of Lynndie England, She-Wolf of the US?  I suspect they'd have a few choice words on the subject.  --[[User:BDobbs|BDobbs]] 21:34, 11 April 2007 (EDT)

And for the 'definition of torture', why not break out the ol' Ouija board and ask some of the Suspected Terrorists who died under the tender care of Lynndie England, She-Wolf of the US?  I suspect they'd have a few choice words on the subject.  --[[User:BDobbs|BDobbs]] 21:34, 11 April 2007 (EDT)

Multiple definitions:

Multiple definitions:

*Torture is painful or humilating treatment used to punish or coerce.  

*Torture is painful or humiliating treatment used to punish or coerce.  

*Torture (as defined in law or treaty): such treatment which the goverment agrees to refrain from doing

*Torture (as defined in law or treaty): such treatment which the government agrees to refrain from doing

Shining bright lights in a suspect's eyes to make him talk can be considered "torture", but most people have in mind things like cutting a man's ears or nuts off. --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] 11:42, 19 April 2007 (EDT)

Shining bright lights in a suspect's eyes to make him talk can be considered "torture", but most people have in mind things like cutting a man's ears or nuts off. --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] 11:42, 19 April 2007 (EDT)

As a family member of a survivor of torture at the hands of the government of Argentina, I am saddened that Americans would even suggest some of the things you have been speaking of.  Untill you have looked first-hand at the results of prolonged torture sessions, do not be so hasty to condem another human being to it.

As a family member of a survivor of torture at the hands of the government of Argentina, I am saddened that Americans would even suggest some of the things you have been speaking of.  Until you have looked first-hand at the results of prolonged torture sessions, do not be so hasty to condem another human being to it.

::What's sad is that at one time, "most people" understood that torture involves far more sophisticated methods than simply maiming someone. Bright lights, sleep deprivation, stress positions, sexual humiliation, all were methods of torture widely understood to be torture back in the 60s and 70s, when both living memories of the Second World War and the publication of THE GULAG ARCHIPELAGO were there to remind us. Ever read Solzhenitsyn's chapter on torture?  

::What's sad is that at one time, "most people" understood that torture involves far more sophisticated methods than simply maiming someone. Bright lights, sleep deprivation, stress positions, sexual humiliation, all were methods of torture widely understood to be torture back in the 60s and 70s, when both living memories of the Second World War and the publication of THE GULAG ARCHIPELAGO were there to remind us. Ever read Solzhenitsyn's chapter on torture?  

==What is Torture==

==What is Torture==

I think when considering this discussion, one should acept that there are different threshholds, and different responses to pain.If any of you take the time to look at the Al Qaeda handbook, part of the evidence used in a trial in NY in 2003, I believe, you'll see they train their people to spill the beans at the first threat of physical abuse. The first fingernail you pull out, they are expected to scream bloody murder. In this way, we are led to believe we are getting true information. Sadly, this will almost always not be the case.  

I think when considering this discussion, one should accept that there are different thresholds, and different responses to pain.If any of you take the time to look at the Al Qaeda handbook, part of the evidence used in a trial in NY in 2003, I believe, you'll see they train their people to spill the beans at the first threat of physical abuse. The first fingernail you pull out, they are expected to scream bloody murder. In this way, we are led to believe we are getting true information. Sadly, this will almost always not be the case.  

Further, remember that when you condemn these people to be tortured, you also condemn our soldiers to be tortured by them. So, at the risk of sounding like Bill O'Reilly, why do you hate the troops? [[User:Flippin|Flippin]] 21:41, 20 April 2007 (EDT)

Further, remember that when you condemn these people to be tortured, you also condemn our soldiers to be tortured by them. So, at the risk of sounding like Bill O'Reilly, why do you hate the troops? [[User:Flippin|Flippin]] 21:41, 20 April 2007 (EDT)

no reading material of any kind

no reading material of any kind

UNTIL the first nuke/bio weapon goes off on american soil...then the gloves come off...

UNTIL the first nuke/bio weapon goes off on American soil...then the gloves come off...

</pre>

</pre>

::Actually, Wally, Solzhenitsyn's famous chapter on torture in the gulags doesn't really describe much maiming, burning, medical experiements, etc. What he describes are all those things you think WE should be doing. --[[User:PF Fox|PF Fox]] 16:02, 28 June 2007 (EDT)

::Actually, Wally, Solzhenitsyn's famous chapter on torture in the gulags doesn't really describe much maiming, burning, medical experiements, etc. What he describes are all those things you think WE should be doing. --[[User:PF Fox|PF Fox]] 16:02, 28 June 2007 (EDT)

I believe this debate to be inflated far beyond the proportions it should be. The Ammendment pertaining to cruel and unusual punishment was not protecting against bad food and sleep depravation. If it was, college would be unconstitutional. The laws were passed to protect United States citizens from being maimed and mutilated in ways reminisce of the medieval inquistions. In England in colonial times you could be inprisoned for multiple years with horrible conditions on a cold stone floor with no medical treatment and minimal food for not paying taxes. Tortures such as ripping out teeth / nails, beating, blinding, boiling, bone breaking, branding and burning, castration, choking, cutting, disfigurement, dislocation, drowning, flagellation, whipping and beating, flaying, roasting, genital mutilation, limb/finger removal, starvation, and tongue removal, and quatering were used. Horrible devices like the catherine wheel, the rack, the iron maiden, thumbscrews, the heretic's fork, and many, many more were used to implement terror among political prisoners, heretics, and anyone who so much as stepped out of line. Christ himself was nailed to a tree and left to die because he spoke out against Rome. We are not treating the terrorists as enemy combatants, we are treating them to a resort hotel. I respect human life and dignity, but obviously anyone who would blow themselves up to kill as many "infidels" as possible doesn't. <small>previous unsigned comment added by [[User:CRD]] 10:39, 3 July 2007 (EDT)</small>

I believe this debate to be inflated far beyond the proportions it should be. The Amendment pertaining to cruel and unusual punishment was not protecting against bad food and sleep depravation. If it was, college would be unconstitutional. The laws were passed to protect United States citizens from being maimed and mutilated in ways reminisce of the medieval inquisitions. In England in colonial times you could be inprisoned for multiple years with horrible conditions on a cold stone floor with no medical treatment and minimal food for not paying taxes. Tortures such as ripping out teeth / nails, beating, blinding, boiling, bone breaking, branding and burning, castration, choking, cutting, disfigurement, dislocation, drowning, flagellation, whipping and beating, flaying, roasting, genital mutilation, limb/finger removal, starvation, and tongue removal, and quartering were used. Horrible devices like the catherine wheel, the rack, the iron maiden, thumbscrews, the heretic's fork, and many, many more were used to implement terror among political prisoners, heretics, and anyone who so much as stepped out of line. Christ himself was nailed to a tree and left to die because he spoke out against Rome. We are not treating the terrorists as enemy combatants, we are treating them to a resort hotel. I respect human life and dignity, but obviously anyone who would blow themselves up to kill as many "infidels" as possible doesn't. <small>previous unsigned comment added by [[User:CRD]] 10:39, 3 July 2007 (EDT)</small>

::So you figure soviet dissident Solzhenitysn was just a big ol' crybaby? And nobody who "respects human life and dignity" would mistake places like Abu Ghraib or Gitmo for a "resort hotel." --[[User:PF Fox|PF Fox]] 01:10, 4 July 2007 (EDT)

::So you figure soviet dissident Solzhenitysn was just a big ol' crybaby? And nobody who "respects human life and dignity" would mistake places like Abu Ghraib or Gitmo for a "resort hotel." --[[User:PF Fox|PF Fox]] 01:10, 4 July 2007 (EDT)

Or you can cause no pain at all, extended bouts of complete sensory deprivation can lead to extreme anxiety and hallucinations, keep a person in long enough and their sense of self breaks down. But the question is what do all these things have in common? It isn't physical damage, it's the mental damage. A person who is raped can often heal the physical wounds in days, yet the mental damage can last a lifetime. Torture is an act that strips a human being of their status as a human being, and doing that lessens us. What is it to be safe if that safety means we must be monsters to attain it?

Or you can cause no pain at all, extended bouts of complete sensory deprivation can lead to extreme anxiety and hallucinations, keep a person in long enough and their sense of self breaks down. But the question is what do all these things have in common? It isn't physical damage, it's the mental damage. A person who is raped can often heal the physical wounds in days, yet the mental damage can last a lifetime. Torture is an act that strips a human being of their status as a human being, and doing that lessens us. What is it to be safe if that safety means we must be monsters to attain it?

In the end, it's not about being safe. When I speak to my grand-children, I don't want to tell them I bought my safety with the pain of others. I want to be able to tell them that I accepted greater danger because it meant doing the right thing.

In the end, it's not about being safe. When I speak to my grandchildren, I don't want to tell them I bought my safety with the pain of others. I want to be able to tell them that I accepted greater danger because it meant doing the right thing.

The deliberate infliction of severe physical pain on a sentient being for a prolonged amount of time--[[User:TedM|TedM]] 23:21, 9 March 2009 (EDT)

The deliberate infliction of severe physical pain on a sentient being for a prolonged amount of time--[[User:TedM|TedM]] 23:21, 9 March 2009 (EDT)