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::Not to sidetrack your guys discussion, but let me point out (cause the media hasn't) we have just witnessed something very rare and unusual in the US. Traditionally, because of state sovereignty, the states prosecute murder cases and federal government's role is restricted, for most of our history, to capital cases in the US military. In the 20th century federal crimes like murdering the president, or terrorism on federal property causing death ([[Timothy McVeigh]]), were added. This guy, [http://www.cnn.com/2017/01/12/us/dylann-roof-death-penalty-explainer/ Dylann Roof], has just been sentenced to death for violating peoples civil rights with a hate crime enhancement, and ''not for murder''. The federal government does not have the legal authority to try this as a murder case. In fact, Roof probably never will be tried for murder cause the State of South Carolina isn't gonna spend the time and money to do it after the feds are done. In my lifetime, I think this is only the fourth case like this I ever heard of, tho I'm sure there's been a few others. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]^{[[User talk:RobSmith|Make Exxon Great Again]]} 22:37, 13 January 2017 (EST)

::Not to sidetrack your guys discussion, but let me point out (cause the media hasn't) we have just witnessed something very rare and unusual in the US. Traditionally, because of state sovereignty, the states prosecute murder cases and federal government's role is restricted, for most of our history, to capital cases in the US military. In the 20th century federal crimes like murdering the president, or terrorism on federal property causing death ([[Timothy McVeigh]]), were added. This guy, [http://www.cnn.com/2017/01/12/us/dylann-roof-death-penalty-explainer/ Dylann Roof], has just been sentenced to death for violating peoples civil rights with a hate crime enhancement, and ''not for murder''. The federal government does not have the legal authority to try this as a murder case. In fact, Roof probably never will be tried for murder cause the State of South Carolina isn't gonna spend the time and money to do it after the feds are done. In my lifetime, I think this is only the fourth case like this I ever heard of, tho I'm sure there's been a few others. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]^{[[User talk:RobSmith|Make Exxon Great Again]]} 22:37, 13 January 2017 (EST)

:::Rob, this happened a lot in the 1960s. Civil rights workers would go South and were murdered and either the murder was not prosecuted or a local jury would acquit the accused.  The FBI would then investigate and the US DOJ would successfully prosecute for civil rights violations in Federal Court.  The question is whether there is enough of a commerce clause basis to allow for the passage of such federal crimes, and the courts have upheld them on the grounds that if the federal government did not prevent such intimidation, people would not feel safe crossing state lines.  Also, many states have suspended or abolished the death penalty, while it remains available in federal court.  State "sovereignty" is very limited and not ''actual'' sovereignty in the legal sense.  To me, this is a more interesting aspect of the Hate crime article than whether or not the definition should be expanded to include "gender identity." [[User:JDano|JDano]] ([[User talk:JDano|talk]]) 01:08, 14 January 2017 (EST)

:::Rob, this happened a lot in the 1960s. Civil rights workers would go South and were murdered and either the murder was not prosecuted or a local jury would acquit the accused.  The FBI would then investigate and the US DOJ would successfully prosecute for civil rights violations in Federal Court.  The question is whether there is enough of a commerce clause basis to allow for the passage of such federal crimes, and the courts have upheld them on the grounds that if the federal government did not prevent such intimidation, people would not feel safe crossing state lines.  Also, many states have suspended or abolished the death penalty, while it remains available in federal court.  State "sovereignty" is very limited and not ''actual'' sovereignty in the legal sense.  To me, this is a more interesting aspect of the Hate crime article than whether or not the definition should be expanded to include "gender identity." [[User:JDano|JDano]] ([[User talk:JDano|talk]]) 01:08, 14 January 2017 (EST)

::::I'm not sure it happened "a lot". There was the 'Mississippi Burning' case, where the local cops and others were charged with civil rights violations, but no one served more than a six year sentence. This is why "hate crime" legislation was added later, cause sentences were too light for a "civil rights viokation resulting in death". The problem in those days were all-white juries exonerating murder cases, so the feds invented a way they could prosecute killers. One guy was convicted in a state trial [http://law2.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/price&bowers/killen.htm 40 years later in 2005 of manslaughter,] but he wasn't the trigger man. No one has ever been charged with the actual killings.

::::I'm not sure it happened "a lot". There was the 'Mississippi Burning' case, where the local cops and others were charged with civil rights violations, but no one served more than a six year sentence. This is why "hate crime" legislation was added later, cause sentences were too light for a "civil rights violation resulting in death". The problem in those days were all-white juries exonerating murder cases, so the feds invented a way they could prosecute killers. One guy was convicted in a state trial [http://law2.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/price&bowers/killen.htm 40 years later in 2005 of manslaughter,] but he wasn't the trigger man. No one has ever been charged with the actual killings.

::::Then there was Salt Lake City case of a civil rights violation resulting in death in 1978, but Utah was never part of the Confederacy, was not put under federal scrutiny in the Voting Rights Act, nor has a history of all-white jurries exonersting whites accused of murdering blacks.  

::::Then there was Salt Lake City case of a civil rights violation resulting in death in 1978, but Utah was never part of the Confederacy, was not put under federal scrutiny in the Voting Rights Act, nor has a history of all-white jurries exonersting whites accused of murdering blacks.  

::::In the 1990s Brian Beckwith was convicted of violating Medgar Evers civil rights by killing him in the 1970s.

 

::::In the 1990s, Brian Beckwith was convicted of violating Medgar Evers civil rights by killing him in the 1970s.

 

::::In the 90s Timothy McViegh was the first person executed by the federal government since, like 1956.  But this was a terrorism charge resulting in death, not a civil rights violation, AFAIK. Since McVeigh, there's been maybe one or two other cases of people executed by the federal government.

::::In the 90s Timothy McViegh was the first person executed by the federal government since, like 1956.  But this was a terrorism charge resulting in death, not a civil rights violation, AFAIK. Since McVeigh, there's been maybe one or two other cases of people executed by the federal government.

::::Bottomline, the federal hate crime enhancement was added cause, while the feds proved they could get a conviction where the state failed to act, the penalty was too low. Since its inception, it's hard to find a single case the law was used for what it was designed for. There id no evidence whatsoever that South Carolina would not prosecute Dylann Roos, or an all-white jury would have exonerated him if the feds failed to intrude. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]^{[[User talk:RobSmith|Make Exxon Great Again]]} 06:32, 14 January 2017 (EST)

::::Bottomline, the federal hate crime enhancement was added cause, while the feds proved they could get a conviction where the state failed to act, the penalty was too low. Since its inception, it's hard to find a single case that the law was used for what it was designed for. There is no evidence whatsoever that South Carolina would not prosecute Dylann Roos, or an all-white jury would have exonerated him if the feds failed to intrude. South Carolina has lost its right to govern itself, its sovereignty. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]^{[[User talk:RobSmith|Make Exxon Great Again]]} 06:32, 14 January 2017 (EST)