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→The Theist answers
:::The hypothetical (previously stated in a wildly exaggerated example) is: if in truth "reason" is your only guide and if in fact there is no soul, no spiritual world and no God, why do you do good things that don't follow reason? Why don't you do "bad" things that have perfectly good rationale? Your answer to the second question was: devise a better hypothetical because my reasoning is arbitrary and supports whatever rational I choose to follow. [[User:Everwill|Everwill]] 10:51, 26 April 2007 (EDT)
:::The hypothetical (previously stated in a wildly exaggerated example) is: if in truth "reason" is your only guide and if in fact there is no soul, no spiritual world and no God, why do you do good things that don't follow reason? Why don't you do "bad" things that have perfectly good rationale? Your answer to the second question was: devise a better hypothetical because my reasoning is arbitrary and supports whatever rational I choose to follow. [[User:Everwill|Everwill]] 10:51, 26 April 2007 (EDT)
==A place for a few more answers==
From the Bible of the Good and Moral Atheist:
"We have evolved the ability to empathize, to share the motivations and feelings of those around us. From this, we
have gained the ability to sympathize with the plight of others, to understand what may be causing them distress or
pain, and to wish, for their sake, that their suffering would stop. Armed with this sympathy, we act in a moral way to
prevent the distress and suffering of others. Our opinions on what constitutes a moral course of action may differ, but
the underlying sympathy is the same."
"With sympathy for others and recognition of the similarities between people, we each build an internal code of the
morality of our actions. We seek to protect innocent children, for we were once children ourselves and needed
protection. We seek a society that does not foster immoral actions, in order to protect the members of society like
ourselves. We feel and internalize various plights and pains of others in this process, and develop a true morality.
American revolutionary and President Thomas Jefferson put it well when he wrote in an 1814 letter, “Nature [has]
implanted in our breasts a love of others, a sense of duty to them, a moral instinct, in short, which prompts us
irresistibly to feel and to succor their distresses.”
Though I am sure this will mean little to a "deist" it is useful to those who at one time tried to find god but realized that the effort was too intellectually dishonest for them to ultimately accept. I think, Everwill, if you are really interested in learning about this and not just baiting the less conservative folk here, you might do well to read some of this material. http://www.angelfire.com/planet/thebgma/BGMA.pdf
::This is exactly my point, but I don't want to jam it down the throats of our resident atheists. Although they don't yet realize it, if you are a moral atheist, you are not an atheist at all, but rather you are a [[deist]]. The slippery slope is: once you realize you are a deist, you begin the search through religions to find a deeper meaning of life and learn more about the true nature of God. [[User:Everwill|Everwill]] 10:53, 26 April 2007 (EDT)
:But that's just it--I am not a deist because I do not accept there is a god that needs to exist. If that means you are going to call me an atheist, fine, whatever, but otherwise there is no reason to be condescending about "poor little atheists." It just isn't necessary. We feel, if I may be so bold, that ''you'' are the one who is lost. [[User:Flippin|Flippin]] 11:14, 26 April 2007 (EDT)
::Flippin this statement so far as I can tell doesn't seem to based upon reason but rather upon faith. As Thomas Jefferson (a deist) said, “Nature [has] implanted in our breasts a love of others, a sense of duty to them, a moral instinct, in short, which prompts us irresistibly to feel and to succor their distresses.” In your "Nature" means "good luck" or at the very difference "luck". I don't see any difference between "good luck" and God. You think these are unrelated concepts, but I'm not sure why. [[User:Everwill|Everwill]] 11:36, 26 April 2007 (EDT)
If I sound condescending it is because you are no different from a fundamentalist muslim. That is you refuse to critically examine your belief set objectively. To answer hypothetical questions will lead you in a direction you refuse to go. You demand that others prove the unprovable as evidence that there is a God. Understand this: we agree that God is neither a flying spaghetti monster, nor a bearded old man laying on a cloud. Relax, I understand your position completely, because I've been where you are. It's okay. Each finds his own path in due time.[[User:Everwill|Everwill]] 11:36, 26 April 2007 (EDT)
Maybe there is a reason it is "unprovable." Truth be told, I think what passes for "good luck" is also random. Just as the rest of universe, this computer I'm typing on and the bowl of Cheerios I had for breakfast. It occurred through chance that this came about--not by a bearded man in the sky waving a wand. If you are looking for fantasy, watch Harry Potter or read the bible. I live in a world of facts and evidence and am content to do so until my lamp is extinguished. [[User:Flippin|Flippin]] 11:45, 26 April 2007 (EDT)
::I really have no idea what Harry Potter or the Bible has to do with the central question. After all this talking I have discerned (with much difficulty) that you attribute all that we see to "good luck". I call it "God" but I agree completely that whether it's just good luck or whether it is God this realization does not change reality. Other than that we are in complete agreement. [[User:Everwill|Everwill]] 11:48, 26 April 2007 (EDT)
Good, we agree that god is a delusion based on random chance and superstition in the ill-informed mind. Glad to hear that, too. [[User:Flippin|Flippin]] 11:51, 26 April 2007 (EDT)
No. We agree that your misinformed characterization of the word "God" is the based on your perceptions about what you think God is. Since we agree that the universe is the product of luck, henceforth I will refer to the guiding force behind the universe as Luck so as to not offend your belief-set.[[User:Everwill|Everwill]] 11:55, 26 April 2007 (EDT)
''Don't you love how the Truth flows like water? No matter where you damn it up, it will still find the way. This is the miracle of Luck to me.'' [[User:Everwill|Everwill]] 12:05, 26 April 2007 (EDT)
good lord this is boring.... [[User:Flippin|Flippin]] 12:11, 26 April 2007 (EDT)
How 'bout I say "you win" and you evangelize someone else? [[User:Flippin|Flippin]] 12:12, 26 April 2007 (EDT)
::That's "reasoning" for you ... heh ... [[User:Everwill|Everwill]] 13:09, 26 April 2007 (EDT)
:::Yes, you win by attrition. Congrats. Now, I'll go back to not going to churc and telling school children there is no god. [[User:Flippin|Flippin]] 13:16, 26 April 2007 (EDT)
::::See below regarding your concept of "Luck" (master of all the universe) if you seek further truth. If you choose ignorance, remain blissful and enjoy your life. [[User:Everwill|Everwill]] 13:39, 26 April 2007 (EDT)
::Funny, you took the words right out of my mouth. ;-) [[User:Flippin|Flippin]] 13:40, 26 April 2007 (EDT)
::::So, in fact this is not attrition or victory (I was never trying to win). Rather the discussion is at an end because you have refused to expand the boundaries of your perceptions. You came here believing that god was a myth and you continue to believe that god is a myth. You refuse to examine the implications of this possibility: myths are myths, but God is something else entirely. The thing you call Luck, I call God. That's called finding common ground. Your current problem is your very fearful of where that common ground might take you. It might shatter your arrogantly held belief-set.
::::See below regarding your concept of "Luck" (master of all the universe) if you seek further truth. If you choose ignorance, remain blissful and enjoy your life. [[User:Everwill|Everwill]] 13:39, 26 April 2007 (EDT)