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| | ::Actually, you're correct on the amount; I tracked down a copy of the order myself. The reduction to $1M was due to a later agreement between the plaintiffs and the new school board, it seems. The order names only the Dover School District and its board of directors, however. So, I gladly withdraw my complaint about the amount, but I'm still concerned about the other points I raised. For future reference, I'm happy to reconsider any and all positions I hold, given sufficient evidence to the contrary. [[User:Tsumetai|Tsumetai]] 08:27, 25 February 2007 (EST) | | ::Actually, you're correct on the amount; I tracked down a copy of the order myself. The reduction to $1M was due to a later agreement between the plaintiffs and the new school board, it seems. The order names only the Dover School District and its board of directors, however. So, I gladly withdraw my complaint about the amount, but I'm still concerned about the other points I raised. For future reference, I'm happy to reconsider any and all positions I hold, given sufficient evidence to the contrary. [[User:Tsumetai|Tsumetai]] 08:27, 25 February 2007 (EST) |
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| | + | ::: "It seems"??? The last order on the docket says over $2 million (Feb. 24, 2006). I'm open to any support you have for your claims, but so far you're not supporting them. Also, I'd be curious who think are the "board of directors" of the School District, if not the school board members. |
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| | + | ::: In sum, all five of your factual statements above, alleging mistakes in the entry, are wrong.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 19:30, 25 February 2007 (EST) |
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| | == Plagiarism is unethical == | | == Plagiarism is unethical == |
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| | ACLU michigan is listed as affiliated with the ACLU on the ACLU's webpage. This should be modified. [[User:JoshuaZ|JoshuaZ]] 19:05, 24 February 2007 (EST) | | ACLU michigan is listed as affiliated with the ACLU on the ACLU's webpage. This should be modified. [[User:JoshuaZ|JoshuaZ]] 19:05, 24 February 2007 (EST) |
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| − | ==Article opening contains material not included in the reference which supposedly supports it==
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| − | The opening paragraph once was:
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| − | :The ACLU is the American Civil Liberties Union, which was run for its first 30 years by a Unitarian socialist named Roger Baldwin, who helped found it in 1920 in response to the Espionage Act and Sedition Act. During most his tenure at the ACLU Baldwin was sympathetic to the communist movement, only breaking off ties on the eve of World War II.
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| − | Seems reasonably OK to me. (One might of course observe that sympathy to the communist movement was pretty common in the days when the communists seemed to be the only serious opposition to the fascists, but never mind that...) It now reads
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| − | :The ACLU is the American Civil Liberties Union, which was run for its first 30 years by a non-Christian socialist named Roger Baldwin, who helped found it in 1920 in response to the [[Espionage Act]] and [[Sedition Act]]. Baldwin's stated purpose in creating the ACLU was "We are for SOCIALISM, disarmament, and ultimately for abolishing the state itself... We seek the social ownership of property, the abolition of the propertied class, and the SOLE CONTROL of those who produce wealth. COMMUNISM is the goal."[http://www.leaderu.com/real/ri9402/aclu.html]
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| − | I have a strong objection to the sentence beginning "Baldwin's stated goal" because that statement is ''not found in the cited source.'' A Google search on it does turn up many hits (with identical all-caps emphasis), but the ones I skimmed were all right-wing blogs and attacks on the ACLU, and none of them cited sources for that quotation themselves.
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| − | Maybe he said it, maybe he didn't, but if it's going to go in the article I want to see a good source for it... good meaning, first, that it actually includes the words he's supposed to have said; second, isn't part of a patently anti-ACLU rant; third, does a reasonably good job of identifying the original published source that includes those words.
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| − | :One source attributes it to a book by a George Grant, "Trial and Error." It can be downloaded for free [http://freebooks.entrewave.com/freebooks/docs/210a_47e.htm here]. Like the websites, it is clearly an anti-ACLU tract without much attempt at neutrality. It appears to have been published as a book by "Wolgemuth and Hyatt," publishers I haven't been able to find out much about. Amazon lists availability only of used copies. But, anyway, the point is: yes, the passage appears in the book... but only in an appendix and, once again, without any citation or attribution. It's in a section entitled "philosophical roots" and saying only "According to Baldwin," then launching into the quotation. No all-caps emphasis, though.
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| − | Now, I also have an objection to the change from "Unitarian socialist" to "non-Christian socialist." ''Unitarian'' is perfectly specific. Since Unitarian Universalism is non-creedal, it cannot be described ''either'' as Christian or as non-Christian. Transforming "Unitarian" into non-Christian looks like POV-pushing to me. Many Unitarian Universalists describe themselves as Christian. Many do not. The UU's own statement on this is can be found [http://www.uua.org/aboutuu/uufaq.html here], the section "Are Unitarian Universalists Christian?" (First line: "Yes and no.") Wishy-washy? OK. Non-Christian? Not a fair characterization. [[User:Dpbsmith|Dpbsmith]] 09:13, 25 February 2007 (EST) P. S. Of course if Baldwin self-described himself as non-Christian that would be legitimate, but transforming "Unitarian" to "non-Christian" is unfair (just as Mormon->non-Christian or Christian Scientist->non-Christian would be).
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| − | P. S. I also think the article should be moved to [[American Civil Liberties Union]], leaving ACLU as a redirect. [[User:Dpbsmith|Dpbsmith]] 09:15, 25 February 2007 (EST)
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