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RobS, is this now an academic argument about the meaning of the word, or are you trying to make a case that the article should revert to using "Islam" as a place?  [[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 02:59, 20 August 2007 (EDT)

RobS, is this now an academic argument about the meaning of the word, or are you trying to make a case that the article should revert to using "Islam" as a place?  [[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 02:59, 20 August 2007 (EDT)

:Disregarding the non sequitur about nation-states, I think we can agree that Islam is not a geographical location any more than "Christianity" or "Buddhism" is. Regarding the words, "Islam" comes from '''الإسلام''', which translates ''directly'' to "submission". Dar al-Islam ('''دار الإسلام''') translates to "house of submission", as the term ''Dar al-Islam'' was used primarily ''after'' the advent of Islam as a religion. --<font color="#0000CC" face="Comic Sans MS">[[User:Hojimachong|'''Ħøĵímαζĥŏήğ''']]</font>^{<font color="00FFAA">[[User_Talk:Hojimachong|θαλκ]]</font>} 11:32, 20 August 2007 (EDT)

:Disregarding the non sequitur about nation-states, I think we can agree that Islam is not a geographical location any more than "Christianity" or "Buddhism" is. Regarding the words, "Islam" comes from '''الإسلام''', which translates ''directly'' to "submission". Dar al-Islam ('''دار الإسلام''') translates to "house of submission", as the term ''Dar al-Islam'' was used primarily ''after'' the advent of Islam as a religion. --<font color="#0000CC" face="Comic Sans MS">[[User:Hojimachong|'''Ħøĵímαζĥŏήğ''']]</font>^{<font color="00FFAA">[[User_Talk:Hojimachong|θαλκ]]</font>} 11:32, 20 August 2007 (EDT)

::I think you have it exactly incorrect; it is ignoring these facts is precisely the grievance that motivated [[Osama bin Laden]].  Islam is indeed a place name,  while "Western Civilization" has is the modern secularized term applied to what "Western Christendom", none of the so-called "Islamic states" are indigenous creations.  They all were carved out of Western [[spheres of influence]] from so-called "Western [[Imperial]] Powers."

::I think you have it exactly incorrect; it is ignoring these facts is precisely the grievance that motivated [[Osama bin Laden]].  Islam is indeed a place name,  while "Western Civilization" is the modern secularized term applied to what "Western Christendom", none of the so-called "Islamic states" are indigenous creations.  They all were carved out of Western [[spheres of influence]] from so-called "Western [[Imperial]] Powers."

::The original (primary source) Koranic language refers to Dar al Sa-lĕm, or the Realm of Peace, Abode of Peace, House of Peace, or other translated versions.  The people of the House of Peace are called the "ummah", from which get we the "ummah of Sa-lĕm", or mu-sa-lĕm. Ĭ-sa-lĕm is itself a [[contraction]] (a contraction is like the word "can't"), Ĭ-sa-lĕm is a contraction of Dar-al-Sa-lĕm.

::The original (primary source) Koranic language refers to Dar al Sa-lĕm, or the Realm of Peace, Abode of Peace, House of Peace, or other translated versions.  The people of the House of Peace are called the "ummah", from which get we the "ummah of Sa-lĕm", or mu-sa-lĕm. Ĭ-sa-lĕm is itself a [[contraction]] (a contraction is like the word "can't"), Ĭ-sa-lĕm is a contraction of Dar-al-Sa-lĕm.

::However, now we have gone past the original primary source into a body of literature spawned by Koranic writing in a multitude of languages, this may be referred to as its "civilizational aspects," to use the term of recent origin my [[Samuel Huntington]].  What we are discussing here is contrasting civilizational idioms.  But in short, ask any Muslim and they will tell you, Islam is primarily a place name, from which a civilization and religious faith also have grown out of.  And the Realm of Peace is perpetually at war with the enemies of God, or the "faithless", also called infidels ("kufr", sometimes "kufir").

::However, now we have gone past the original primary source into a body of literature spawned by Koranic writing in a multitude of languages, this may be referred to as its "civilizational aspects," to use the term of recent origin my [[Samuel Huntington]].  What we are discussing here is contrasting civilizational idioms.  But in short, ask any Muslim and they will tell you, Islam is primarily a place name, from which a civilization and religious faith also have grown out of.  And the Realm of Peace is perpetually at war with the enemies of God, or the "faithless", also called infidels ("kufr", sometimes "kufir").

::The concept of [[nation state]] arose in the division of the land of the Franks afrer Charles the Great (Charle-Magna) most historians would probably agree.  It is entirely Western, and Christian in both concept and origin.  Nation states were imposed upon Islam, and the Arab nation, pretty much universally after the [[Treaty of Versailles]] (less then 90 years ago).  [[User:RobS|Rob Smith]] 13:16, 20 August 2007 (EDT)

::The concept of [[nation state]] arose in the division of the land of the Franks afrer Charles the Great (Charle-Magna) most historians would probably agree.  It is entirely Western, and Christian in both concept and origin.  Nation states were imposed upon Islam, and the Arab nation, pretty much universally after the [[Treaty of Versailles]] (less then 90 years ago).  [[User:RobS|Rob Smith]] 13:16, 20 August 2007 (EDT)