Changes

:: The question of disbelief in the supernatural for an atheist does not enter his or her mind when making a choice.  There is no WWJD thought that happens to an atheist, and thus that disbelief does not strongly influence his or her thoughts - there is no "because I am an atheist, the right thing to do is this."  If the person is a secular humanist, then there is something - but not all atheists are secular humanists.  Thus, with this definition, atheism and agnosticism are not religions while Buddhism (being debated elsewhere as a philosophy or not) is. --[[User:Rutm|Rutm]] 15:32, 10 September 2007 (EDT)

:: The question of disbelief in the supernatural for an atheist does not enter his or her mind when making a choice.  There is no WWJD thought that happens to an atheist, and thus that disbelief does not strongly influence his or her thoughts - there is no "because I am an atheist, the right thing to do is this."  If the person is a secular humanist, then there is something - but not all atheists are secular humanists.  Thus, with this definition, atheism and agnosticism are not religions while Buddhism (being debated elsewhere as a philosophy or not) is. --[[User:Rutm|Rutm]] 15:32, 10 September 2007 (EDT)

:::I've been a Christian for over 40 years, and I virtually ''never'' have a "WWJD thought".  It's simply not something that I consciously do, but nevertheless, my decisions are based on my worldview that is based on the Bible.  Similarly, atheists will not ''consciously'' think, "what is right for an atheist", but nevertheless, just as with a Christian, his decisions are going to be based on his atheistic worldview.  Is an atheist going to think, "I better not tell a lie, because God will be know that I've lied"?  Of course not—as an atheist he's not going to think that way.  He's not going to think that way ''because he is an atheist''.  That is, his atheism ''affects his thinking'', just as surely as the Bible will affect a Christian's thinking.  Atheism is a "core belief" upon which an Atheist bases his life.  Thus Atheism is a religion, by that definition.  [[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 23:33, 10 September 2007 (EDT)

:::I've been a Christian for over 40 years, and I virtually ''never'' have a "WWJD thought".  It's simply not something that I consciously do, but nevertheless, my decisions are based on my worldview that is based on the Bible.  Similarly, atheists will not ''consciously'' think, "what is right for an atheist", but nevertheless, just as with a Christian, his decisions are going to be based on his atheistic worldview.  Is an atheist going to think, "I better not tell a lie, because God will be know that I've lied"?  Of course not—as an atheist he's not going to think that way.  He's not going to think that way ''because he is an atheist''.  That is, his atheism ''affects his thinking'', just as surely as the Bible will affect a Christian's thinking.  Atheism is a "core belief" upon which an Atheist bases his life.  Thus Atheism is a religion, by that definition.  [[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 23:33, 10 September 2007 (EDT)

::::Just like there are no people who are just "theists" and nothing else, there are no "atheists" that are only atheists. Christians don't base their actions, explicitly or implicitly, on the assumption that there exist "a god", but on their belief in a "particular God", the holy trinity. Likewise, no atheists doesn't base his actions merely on the belief that there is no god.  Some base their actions on the notion of a social contract, some on humanism, others on hedonism, existentialism, nihilism, scientism, or their own home brew of philosophy. This is also a reason why it is problematic to label "atheism" as a religion, because other than their disbelief, they have very little in common. [[User:Order|Order]] 23:45, 10 September 2007 (EDT)

::::Just like there are no people who are just "theists" and nothing else, there are no "atheists" that are only atheists. Christians don't base their actions, explicitly or implicitly, on the assumption that there exist "a god", but on their belief in a "particular God", the holy trinity. Likewise, no atheists bases his actions merely on the belief that there is no god.  Some base their actions on the notion of a social contract, some on humanism, others on hedonism, existentialism, nihilism, scientism, or their own home brew of philosophy. This is also a reason why it is problematic to label "atheism" as a religion, because other than their disbelief, they have very little in common. [[User:Order|Order]] 23:45, 10 September 2007 (EDT)

:::::I agree with you. [[User:Learn together|Learn together]] 01:48, 11 September 2007 (EDT)

:::::I agree with you. [[User:Learn together|Learn together]] 01:48, 11 September 2007 (EDT)

:so you'd argue that theism isn't a religion either but rather a tenet of several religions?  Interesting ... Would you call secular humanism a religion?  [[User:Ungtss|Ungtss]] 00:18, 11 September 2007 (EDT)

:so you'd argue that theism isn't a religion either but rather a tenet of several religions?  Interesting ... Would you call secular humanism a religion?  [[User:Ungtss|Ungtss]] 00:18, 11 September 2007 (EDT)

::I agree with Order.  Atheism is lack of religion, not religion.  Secular humanism, likewise, is a philosophy that operates outside of religion.  When we blur the distinction, religion, or what it means to have a religion, becomes watered down as to be any closely held belief from which someone derives a worldview.  So Communism becomes a religion, Freudian psychology becomes a religion, etc.  I believe any definition of religion that allows that is missing the mark. [[User:Learn together|Learn together]] 01:48, 11 September 2007 (EDT)

::I agree with Order.  Atheism is lack of religion, not religion.  Secular humanism, likewise, is a philosophy that operates outside of religion.  When we blur the distinction, religion, or what it means to have a religion, becomes watered down as to be any closely held belief from which someone derives a worldview.  So Communism becomes a religion, Freudian psychology becomes a religion, etc.  I believe any definition of religion that allows that is missing the mark. [[User:Learn together|Learn together]] 01:48, 11 September 2007 (EDT)

:::You could call secular humanism a religion. I'd feel it is a bit of a stretch, but they do have core beliefs, and are not too far from Buddhism, which is typically called religion. But that why we should distinguish between "real" religions, and "philosophies of life" that you might call "religion". Atheism isn't even a philosophy of life. And a real religion is typically more than just a philosophy of life. [[User:Order|Order]] 02:16, 11 September 2007 (EDT)

:::You could call secular humanism a religion. I'd feel it is a bit of a stretch, but they do have core beliefs, and are not too far from Buddhism, which is typically called religion. But that why we should distinguish between "real" religions, and "philosophies of life" that you might call "religion". Atheism isn't even a philosophy of life. And a real religion is typically more than just a philosophy of life. [[User:Order|Order]] 02:16, 11 September 2007 (EDT)