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Talk:Intelligent design controversy (view source)
Revision as of 03:30, April 9, 2008
, 03:30, April 9, 2008It's a good idea to learn about the topics that you want to criticise.
Whereas Gulik provided much research to support evolution, Intelligent Design has yet to produce research or a mechanism outside of the mechanisms of evolution to support their hypothesis. Something to add is that most new concepts of science begin in the collegiate academic environment where they undergo testing and verification before being trickled down to the general public and secondary and primary education systems, therefore intelligent design is suspect of circumventing this practice do to a failure of meeting the standards necessary to be a competing theory in the aforementioned environment, which leads many to conclude that the proponents of intelligent design are trying to indoctrinate instead of allowing the application of rational debate for defense of their hypothesis. The major concern is that by allowing the circumvention of the testing and debate in the academic environment sets a standard for other untested, non qualified concepts to be taught with a scientific label. I personally feel it is fine for intelligent design to be taught in a theological setting not a scientific one. This debate with evolution is a bit unreasonable due to evolution's stance in the biological sciences, if intelligent design wanted to replace evolution then it should have followed the standard, much like string theory has been for the past 20 years. This motivation is also suspect since when has a scientific concept not taken more than 10 years to reach the public? Why push intelligent design on school children with less than 10 years of development, let alone testing and research? Like I said the motivations behind the intelligent design proponents are suspect.
Whereas Gulik provided much research to support evolution, Intelligent Design has yet to produce research or a mechanism outside of the mechanisms of evolution to support their hypothesis. Something to add is that most new concepts of science begin in the collegiate academic environment where they undergo testing and verification before being trickled down to the general public and secondary and primary education systems, therefore intelligent design is suspect of circumventing this practice do to a failure of meeting the standards necessary to be a competing theory in the aforementioned environment, which leads many to conclude that the proponents of intelligent design are trying to indoctrinate instead of allowing the application of rational debate for defense of their hypothesis. The major concern is that by allowing the circumvention of the testing and debate in the academic environment sets a standard for other untested, non qualified concepts to be taught with a scientific label. I personally feel it is fine for intelligent design to be taught in a theological setting not a scientific one. This debate with evolution is a bit unreasonable due to evolution's stance in the biological sciences, if intelligent design wanted to replace evolution then it should have followed the standard, much like string theory has been for the past 20 years. This motivation is also suspect since when has a scientific concept not taken more than 10 years to reach the public? Why push intelligent design on school children with less than 10 years of development, let alone testing and research? Like I said the motivations behind the intelligent design proponents are suspect.
--[[User:Able806|Able806]] 16:44, 8 April 2008 (EDT)
--[[User:Able806|Able806]] 16:44, 8 April 2008 (EDT)
: Gulik5, can you unequivocally demonstrate that "Dig[ging] up a fossil of a Tyrannosaurus Rex that died from choking to death on a Homo Sapiens" ''would'' falsify evolution? Because I don't think it would. Rather, the evolutionists would simply (and finally) admit that T-rex must have survived longer than they have previously claimed, and not admit to any falsification of evolution itself at all. For more on this, see [[falsifiability of evolution]] and [[User:Philip J. Rayment/Creationism]].
: I don't find the Talk.Origins examples convincing. Some of them appear to ''assume'' evolution in order to demonstrate evolution. For example, human evolution in Africa ''assumes'' that humans have evolved, but that has not been demonstrated. Also, some of the examples give too little information to judge them.
: I also suspect that some of the "evolutionary" predictions have little if anything to do with evolution at all. That is, the same predictions could also be made by creationists. This likely applies to the one about high mutation rates, for example.
: Certainly the plate tectonics example falls into the category above. Plate tectonics was originally proposed by a creationist, partly on the basis of the account in Genesis. And the scientist with what is acknowledged as the best computer simulation of plate tectonics is a young-Earth creationist (who believes that it happened ''quickly'', during Noah's Flood). So, plate tectonics is not an evolutionary prediction at all, but a prediction made by both camps.
: And this highlights a very large part of the creation/evolution/ID controversy: The evolutionists have almost no idea just what creationists (and ID proponents) actually propose, so a large part of their "rebuttal" of creationism and ID is straw-man arguments, pointless arguments, and plain nonsense. The fact that you repeated this nonsense here shows that ''you'' don't know what you are talking about either, so have little credibility in this discussion. Your comment about creationist biologists is more such nonsense. Creationist biologists accept all the biology that an evolutionist accepts, but disagrees on how living things came about. That is, they agree on the observable ''facts'', not on the unobserved ''history''. So comparisons with doctors who don't accept modern ''observations'' are totally invalid and merely show your ignorance of the issue.
: And by the way, one of your points copied from Talk.Origins, the magnetic striping bit, provides an example of a successful ''creationist'' prediction (see [[Plate tectonics#Biblical View|here]]).
: The ISSR statement is nonsense too. It says that "Intelligent Design theorists do not have proper research programmes to make their points", ignoring that because ID is not considered science, nobody will give them funds to have such research programs! Thus "ID is not science > therefore it is not funded for research > therefore, having no research, it is not science" = circular argument.
: Further, it says that it "[deplores] efforts to drive a wedge between science and religion", ignoring that ID is ''not'' aiming to do that, and in fact the ISSR is doing that by trying to argue that the two are totally unrelated.
: Able806 omits mentioning that many new ideas in science are rejected by the majority initially, and only after fighting against the establishment for many years do the new ideas become accepted. And because the establishment is against these new ideas, the ideas have to be promoted in other avenues than the normal academic avenues. Again, it is a circular argument that ID is not scientific because it's not discussed in the "proper" channels, but it's not allowed to be discussed in the proper channels because it's not scientific!
: As for claims of indoctrination, this is a case of when pointing the finger at someone, you have three pointing back at yourself. It's the evolutionists that have a stranglehold on the school system, with even efforts to tell students that they should keep an open mind about evolution being taken to court and stopped. When evolutionists prevent students being told that they should keep an open mind, they are indoctrinating. When they then accuse their opposition of indoctrination, they are being hypocrites. And Able806 has the gall to question the motives of ID proponents!
: [[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 23:30, 8 April 2008 (EDT)