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:: [[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 09:48, 13 May 2008 (EDT)

:: [[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 09:48, 13 May 2008 (EDT)

  Religion is simply just one’s personal belief system; that’s not an opinion. Religion as a concept cannot possibly be the infallible word of God because that is a too specific description of religion. Some religions are not even theistic. If you are referring to Christianity as being infallible, that is your own personal belief. It is not science and they should not go hand in hand and your opinion on whether or not evolution is fallible is also a personal belief as it is unscientific to reject it simply because it contradicts your personal beliefs (religion). Hence, religion and science are two different concepts. Now when you say that the people who are unable to observe the events that say happened (in regards to evolution), it shows that you simply don’t understand evolution. Neither is evolution from an anti-theist or even anti-religious perspective. Evolutionary thought has been prevalent even thousands of years before Charles Darwin. In fact, many of the scientists who proposed it and/or studied it were religious or at least theists themselves, including Charles Darwin. The idea of storytelling is also quite wrong. Evolution would have never survived in the scientific field if it had only been based on storytelling. Evolution is based on the scientific method which requires experimentation and evidence, something which it has provided. Religion on the other hand, particularly those belief systems stemmed from the Bible are based on no more than stories themselves. Christians who use the “Genesis account” or “consider Genesis to be scientifically accurate” (call it what you want, I can’t see the difference), are taking a text literally that is no more than storytelling itself. Nor can a Christian prove that otherwise by observing scientific experimentation.

::Religion is simply just one’s personal belief system; that’s not an opinion. Religion as a concept cannot possibly be the infallible word of God because that is a too specific description of religion. Some religions are not even theistic. If you are referring to Christianity as being infallible, that is your own personal belief. It is not science and they should not go hand in hand and your opinion on whether or not evolution is fallible is also a personal belief as it is unscientific to reject it simply because it contradicts your personal beliefs (religion). Hence, religion and science are two different concepts. Now when you say that the people who are unable to observe the events that say happened (in regards to evolution), it shows that you simply don’t understand evolution. Neither is evolution from an anti-theist or even anti-religious perspective. Evolutionary thought has been prevalent even thousands of years before Charles Darwin. In fact, many of the scientists who proposed it and/or studied it were religious or at least theists themselves, including Charles Darwin. The idea of storytelling is also quite wrong. Evolution would have never survived in the scientific field if it had only been based on storytelling. Evolution is based on the scientific method which requires experimentation and evidence, something which it has provided. Religion on the other hand, particularly those belief systems stemmed from the Bible are based on no more than stories themselves. Christians who use the “Genesis account” or “consider Genesis to be scientifically accurate” (call it what you want, I can’t see the difference), are taking a text literally that is no more than storytelling itself. Nor can a Christian prove that otherwise by observing scientific experimentation.

  I would be curious to know your arguments, at least in a nutshell. The page appears to be full of them but I don’t exactly understand your points. If you are saying that this Web site (I read this[http://creationontheweb.com/content/view/52/] article) reflects your personal beliefs, I’ll assume that for now (unless you state otherwise). However, that Web site is quite disturbing to me. The site assumes that evolution “removes any clear source of authority in our lives” which is wrong. Evolution does not, in fact. Evolution only reflects that all organisms descended from a common ancestor. You may look in any scientific textbook or ask any evolutionary biologist and they will disagree with this site’s statement. Evolution has nothing to do with the belief in God. And remember that Christianity is not the only belief system that describes the concept of “God”. You say that I have no business to state that the arguments are wrong. I never said they are wrong. However, if you do indeed believe in what this site is saying, it goes to show that you do not have a clear understanding of evolution and thus can’t say that evolution is wrong either or even argue against it. Arguing against evolution when you don’t understand it is bad enough but when you demonise it, it is a sign of weakness. Evolution is most certainly not the cause of broken lives, broken families, suicide, Nazism, or communism (if you disagree with this, please tell me but I am going by the article on the Web site you provided).

::I would be curious to know your arguments, at least in a nutshell. The page appears to be full of them but I don’t exactly understand your points. If you are saying that this Web site (I read this[http://creationontheweb.com/content/view/52/] article) reflects your personal beliefs, I’ll assume that for now (unless you state otherwise). However, that Web site is quite disturbing to me. The site assumes that evolution “removes any clear source of authority in our lives” which is wrong. Evolution does not, in fact. Evolution only reflects that all organisms descended from a common ancestor. You may look in any scientific textbook or ask any evolutionary biologist and they will disagree with this site’s statement. Evolution has nothing to do with the belief in God. And remember that Christianity is not the only belief system that describes the concept of “God”. You say that I have no business to state that the arguments are wrong. I never said they are wrong. However, if you do indeed believe in what this site is saying, it goes to show that you do not have a clear understanding of evolution and thus can’t say that evolution is wrong either or even argue against it. Arguing against evolution when you don’t understand it is bad enough but when you demonise it, it is a sign of weakness. Evolution is most certainly not the cause of broken lives, broken families, suicide, Nazism, or communism (if you disagree with this, please tell me but I am going by the article on the Web site you provided).

  When I say the source that says creationists use the scientific account of Genesis, I mean the one that was provided earlier in the debate[http://www.interacademies.net/Object.File/Master/6/150/Evolution%20statement.pdf]. I really do not understand what umbrage you take over the “scientific account” statement. What makes it so twisted is that you state that saying “Genesis is a scientific account” and that “Genesis is scientifically accurate” imply two different things and that to say that Genesis is a scientific account is misleading. How exactly is this misleading and how does a different syntax (in this instance) imply something else? I am also curious to know why you accept the possibility that the Flat Earth Society is a joke. Accepting the possibility of two different things being dubious has nothing to do with whether or not the two juxtaposed things are related other than in the context of whether or not their legitimacy is dubious. So if you give the possibility that the Flat Earth Society is a joke, you might as well bring up the possibility that the Bible is a collection of faerie tale annals. Why the double-standard?

::When I say the source that says creationists use the scientific account of Genesis, I mean the one that was provided earlier in the debate[http://www.interacademies.net/Object.File/Master/6/150/Evolution%20statement.pdf]. I really do not understand what umbrage you take over the “scientific account” statement. What makes it so twisted is that you state that saying “Genesis is a scientific account” and that “Genesis is scientifically accurate” imply two different things and that to say that Genesis is a scientific account is misleading. How exactly is this misleading and how does a different syntax (in this instance) imply something else? I am also curious to know why you accept the possibility that the Flat Earth Society is a joke. Accepting the possibility of two different things being dubious has nothing to do with whether or not the two juxtaposed things are related other than in the context of whether or not their legitimacy is dubious. So if you give the possibility that the Flat Earth Society is a joke, you might as well bring up the possibility that the Bible is a collection of faerie tale annals. Why the double-standard?

  In your previous post, you select a quote from my previous post like this: "...if you want to accept ... that Charles Darwin lied in his journal ...". Yes, I indeed said that but you left out that I said that "if you want to accept the assumption" between the ellipsis. I said you only assume so. In an earlier post, you said about Darwin's journal entry: "How do you know that Darwin didn't lie?". Thus, you give the possibility that he lied (although, you don't support this assertion with any facts).

::In your previous post, you select a quote from my previous post like this: "...if you want to accept ... that Charles Darwin lied in his journal ...". Yes, I indeed said that but you left out that I said that "if you want to accept the assumption" between the ellipsis. I said you only assume so. In an earlier post, you said about Darwin's journal entry: "How do you know that Darwin didn't lie?". Thus, you give the possibility that he lied (although, you don't support this assertion with any facts).

   In the event that you disagree that the Bible is not the stuff of legends, I must ask how does the Bible differ from any other archaic texts that describe things not known to be observed by a scientific consensus such as dragons or leviathans? Sure, it may be held to have historical accuracy. The Nibelungenlied served as a useful tool for historians to uncover the history of the Burgundians. However, the details about Siegfried and the dragon are usually considered to be legends. (One may choose to reject these considerations made by historians and believe the legends, of course.) I'm just curious as to how the Bible differs from such other legendary manuscripts. But if you insist on seeing a legitimate source that agrees with my point about the Bible being the stuff of legends, I feel obliged to reveal one[http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-35341/Judaism].

   In the event that you disagree that the Bible is not the stuff of legends, I must ask how does the Bible differ from any other archaic texts that describe things not known to be observed by a scientific consensus such as dragons or leviathans? Sure, it may be held to have historical accuracy. The Nibelungenlied served as a useful tool for historians to uncover the history of the Burgundians. However, the details about Siegfried and the dragon are usually considered to be legends. (One may choose to reject these considerations made by historians and believe the legends, of course.) I'm just curious as to how the Bible differs from such other legendary manuscripts. But if you insist on seeing a legitimate source that agrees with my point about the Bible being the stuff of legends, I feel obliged to reveal one[http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-35341/Judaism].

  Regarding those scripture references, how do you cite the assertion that Bible sceptics merely playing with words? There ''is'' certainly a problem in the scripture. Earth is not round. It is spherical. It is incorrect to say that it is round. Bible sceptics do not "falsely" claim that creationists take the Bible literally. The argument presented in Bible scepticism is that if one were to take Genesis literally, then why not take the songs in Psalms or 1 Samuel literally? After all, the Church took the songs in 1 Chronicles and Psalms literally that state Earth is stationary. If they knew beforehand that Earth does not rest on pillars, why would they put it in a song? In 1 Samuel, it's not even a song. It's a prayer. Why would Hannah state in a prayer that God does something he really doesn't? Then there are fundamentalists that say homosexuality is an abomination because the the Bible says so. However, they tend to ignore some of those passages that give some precepts that would be considered wacky today. If we must follow the passages in the Bible that say homosexuality is an abomination, why don't fundamentalists follow those passages that say we cannot cut our hair (Leviticus 19:27), mix textiles for attire (Leviticus 19:19), eat anything with blood (Leviticus 19:26) (I don't see fundamentalists objecting to restaurants serving rare steaks), women teaching men (1 Timothy 2:12), tattooing, and piercing (Leviticus 19:28). Oh, and let us not forget those many passages that justify slavery and cruel and unusual punishment. My point is that there are parts of the Bible (including Genesis) which are not only scientifically inaccurate, but do not represent even the norms of most Christian fundamentalists today. Historically, there have been fundamentalists who have used the Bible to oppose scientific views such as the Church opposing the astronomical viewpoints of Galileo and fundamentalists who have used the Bible to promote intolerance such as those who justified racism with the Curse of Canaan. And today, there are fundamentalists who are using the Bible to oppose scientific views such as creationists opposing the evolutionary viewpoints of Charles Darwin and fundamentalists who are using the Bible to promote intolerance such as those who justify homophobia with passages in Leviticus. It just shows that history repeats itself and I have yet to see how the abuse of dubious Bible passages regarding moral and scientific viewpoints from today's fundamentalists differ from those in the past.

::Regarding those scripture references, how do you cite the assertion that Bible sceptics merely playing with words? There ''is'' certainly a problem in the scripture. Earth is not round. It is spherical. It is incorrect to say that it is round. Bible sceptics do not "falsely" claim that creationists take the Bible literally. The argument presented in Bible scepticism is that if one were to take Genesis literally, then why not take the songs in Psalms or 1 Samuel literally? After all, the Church took the songs in 1 Chronicles and Psalms literally that state Earth is stationary. If they knew beforehand that Earth does not rest on pillars, why would they put it in a song? In 1 Samuel, it's not even a song. It's a prayer. Why would Hannah state in a prayer that God does something he really doesn't? Then there are fundamentalists that say homosexuality is an abomination because the the Bible says so. However, they tend to ignore some of those passages that give some precepts that would be considered wacky today. If we must follow the passages in the Bible that say homosexuality is an abomination, why don't fundamentalists follow those passages that say we cannot cut our hair (Leviticus 19:27), mix textiles for attire (Leviticus 19:19), eat anything with blood (Leviticus 19:26) (I don't see fundamentalists objecting to restaurants serving rare steaks), women teaching men (1 Timothy 2:12), tattooing, and piercing (Leviticus 19:28). Oh, and let us not forget those many passages that justify slavery and cruel and unusual punishment. My point is that there are parts of the Bible (including Genesis) which are not only scientifically inaccurate, but do not represent even the norms of most Christian fundamentalists today. Historically, there have been fundamentalists who have used the Bible to oppose scientific views such as the Church opposing the astronomical viewpoints of Galileo and fundamentalists who have used the Bible to promote intolerance such as those who justified racism with the Curse of Canaan. And today, there are fundamentalists who are using the Bible to oppose scientific views such as creationists opposing the evolutionary viewpoints of Charles Darwin and fundamentalists who are using the Bible to promote intolerance such as those who justify homophobia with passages in Leviticus. It just shows that history repeats itself and I have yet to see how the abuse of dubious Bible passages regarding moral and scientific viewpoints from today's fundamentalists differ from those in the past.

  I am aware of Galileo's faithfulness to Christianity in spite of his clash with the Church, but I didn't know that the Church was adopting secular views which he opposed. That seems quite ironic, especially considering Galileo's situation. Could you cite this assertion? In regards to those passages that contradict science which are now ignored by fundamentalists, they include those passages that say that Earth is stationary. The fact that the Church took those passages literally which resulted in a clash between the Bible and astronomy proves that there are passages which fundamentalists will defend in spite of scientific evidence against them, kind of like creationists today objecting to evolution! [[User:Kilmarnock|Kilmarnock]] 22:34, 13 May 2008 (EDT)

::I am aware of Galileo's faithfulness to Christianity in spite of his clash with the Church, but I didn't know that the Church was adopting secular views which he opposed. That seems quite ironic, especially considering Galileo's situation. Could you cite this assertion? In regards to those passages that contradict science which are now ignored by fundamentalists, they include those passages that say that Earth is stationary. The fact that the Church took those passages literally which resulted in a clash between the Bible and astronomy proves that there are passages which fundamentalists will defend in spite of scientific evidence against them, kind of like creationists today objecting to evolution! [[User:Kilmarnock|Kilmarnock]] 22:34, 13 May 2008 (EDT)