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::: I've been clear about the request for "data", a term that does not ordinarily include organisms. I recall that Lenski himself in the paper claims that he analyzed "data", and one of his co-authors did not. The table in the entry here on [[Lenski]] illustrates with great specificity what the undisclosed data are. No, it is not necessary to perform experiments and generate new data in order to review existing data for a published paper.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 16:30, 5 July 2008 (EDT)
::: I've been clear about the request for "data", a term that does not ordinarily include organisms. I recall that Lenski himself in the paper claims that he analyzed "data", and one of his co-authors did not. The table in the entry here on [[Lenski]] illustrates with great specificity what the undisclosed data are. No, it is not necessary to perform experiments and generate new data in order to review existing data for a published paper.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 16:30, 5 July 2008 (EDT)
:::: First, Mr. Schlafly (if you like, my real name is Scott), I specifically said "the documents and bacteria samples", yet you act as if I am only talking about the bacteria. Second, even if you had those documents you'd be stuck with another problem: you are essentially charging Mr. Lenski with either misinterpreting or making up the results in his research. Assuming you had every single document (be it paper or electronic or whatever) on your desk this very moment, what would cause you to suddenly believe them with those missing parts now included? If I'm interpreting your challenge correctly, you wish to come to your own conclusions about the ''E. coli'' study. How are you going to do that with documents that you clearly distrust? You would need to examine the bacteria generations themselves, not just the documents you think are incorrect, to come to an independent opinion. Mr. Lenski seems more than willing to comply with your data request, but I haven't seen something similar from you showing that you're capable of storing and examining the bacteria samples safely. When do you hope to have the facilities online or loaned out? - [[User:LafinJack|LafinJack]] 20:27, 5 July 2008 (EDT)
:::Addressing the table on [[Lenski]]- it would be worthwhile to state what the minimum requirements are for you to declare that the data is fully disclosed. For example, when you ask for data on daily turbidity observations, do you require a facsimile of every observation for all twelve cell lines for every daily transfer since 1988? A summary of only those observations which are 'unusual', according to some predetermined criteria? With or without facsimiles of those particular observations? With or without summaries and/or facsimiles of the tests performed to establish the cause of the unusual turbidity? When you ask for 'data' on contamination, do you wish for a summary of every contamination event for all twelve cell lines over since 1988, or just the Ara-3 line? Are facsimiles required? When you ask for 'higher resolution data underlying the figure', is it acceptable to present the same data in a table form rather than a figure, or are facsimiles of the recorded observations needed? Each 'Question' can be narrowed down significantly. The legitimacy of the challenge can be enhanced by fixing the goalposts at the outset.
:::Addressing the table on [[Lenski]]- it would be worthwhile to state what the minimum requirements are for you to declare that the data is fully disclosed. For example, when you ask for data on daily turbidity observations, do you require a facsimile of every observation for all twelve cell lines for every daily transfer since 1988? A summary of only those observations which are 'unusual', according to some predetermined criteria? With or without facsimiles of those particular observations? With or without summaries and/or facsimiles of the tests performed to establish the cause of the unusual turbidity? When you ask for 'data' on contamination, do you wish for a summary of every contamination event for all twelve cell lines over since 1988, or just the Ara-3 line? Are facsimiles required? When you ask for 'higher resolution data underlying the figure', is it acceptable to present the same data in a table form rather than a figure, or are facsimiles of the recorded observations needed? Each 'Question' can be narrowed down significantly. The legitimacy of the challenge can be enhanced by fixing the goalposts at the outset.