Changes

::::: No, the laws are not based on morality that everyone holds.  If that were the case, there would be little need for the laws!  And some ''do'' think that murder and theft is morally right (in some circumstances at least), such as murder of unborn children, murder of old people, murder of some young children (e.g. [[Peter Singer]]'s views), theft from insurance companies (false claims), theft from rich people, and so on.

::::: No, the laws are not based on morality that everyone holds.  If that were the case, there would be little need for the laws!  And some ''do'' think that murder and theft is morally right (in some circumstances at least), such as murder of unborn children, murder of old people, murder of some young children (e.g. [[Peter Singer]]'s views), theft from insurance companies (false claims), theft from rich people, and so on.

::::: If you don't want morality legislated on the basis of the existence of disagreement, what do you do when people disagree for other reasons?  Still not legislate?  Or if you do, who gets to decide then?

::::: If you don't want morality legislated on the basis of the existence of disagreement, what do you do when people disagree for other reasons?  Still not legislate?  Or if you do, who gets to decide then?

:::::: [[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 21:55, 22 October 2008 (EDT)

::::: [[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 21:55, 22 October 2008 (EDT)

:::::::How are you affected by ''someone else'' being married (in a manner that's different from a homosexual couple living together ''as if'' they were married, which is legal)?

::::::How are you affected by ''someone else'' being married (in a manner that's different from a homosexual couple living together ''as if'' they were married, which is legal)?

:::::::So still, you are saying that laws are based on someone's morality, and go against someone else's. Again I ask, who gets to decide who's morality the law is based on? ''That's'' what people who don't want morality legislated are against.  

::::::So still, you are saying that laws are based on someone's morality, and go against someone else's. Again I ask, who gets to decide who's morality the law is based on? ''That's'' what people who don't want morality legislated are against.  

:::::::A discussion of rights vs. morality is interesting (though I'm a little underprepared; I need to do some more reading!), but this all started with the statement in the article. Whether we use your definition or morals/rights/laws or mine, the statement is misleading at best, and a logical fallacy at worst. [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 22:35, 22 October 2008 (EDT)

::::::A discussion of rights vs. morality is interesting (though I'm a little underprepared; I need to do some more reading!), but this all started with the statement in the article. Whether we use your definition or morals/rights/laws or mine, the statement is misleading at best, and a logical fallacy at worst. [[User:HelpJazz|Help]][[User talk:HelpJazz|Jazz]] 22:35, 22 October 2008 (EDT)

:::::::: I may not be directly affected by a homosexual "marriage" per se, but by legalising it, you are endorsing a lifestyle that is a detriment to society, and as part of society, I am affected.  One obvious example is AIDS, which has affected society and which takes tax dollars that could have been spent on other things if AIDS was not taking it.

::::::: I may not be directly affected by a homosexual "marriage" per se, but by legalising it, you are endorsing a lifestyle that is a detriment to society, and as part of society, I am affected.  One obvious example is AIDS, which has affected society and which takes tax dollars that could have been spent on other things if AIDS was not taking it.

:::::::: Yes, laws based on morality ''or on anything else'' will be consistent with one person's views and inconsistent with another person's views.  So what do you do?  Not make laws?  No, you elect people to make laws for you, and you make them, in general terms, according to the wishes of the population.  But you don't exclude some of those wishes simply on the arbitrary grounds that they are "morals based".  Of course ideally you would make them according to God's standards, but if the population as a whole doesn't recognise God's standards, that's not going to happen.  So what I'm really saying is that ideally the population as a whole would recognise God's standards and make the laws accordingly, which is historically just what has happened in much of western civilisation.

::::::: Yes, laws based on morality ''or on anything else'' will be consistent with one person's views and inconsistent with another person's views.  So what do you do?  Not make laws?  No, you elect people to make laws for you, and you make them, in general terms, according to the wishes of the population.  But you don't exclude some of those wishes simply on the arbitrary grounds that they are "morals based".  Of course ideally you would make them according to God's standards, but if the population as a whole doesn't recognise God's standards, that's not going to happen.  So what I'm really saying is that ideally the population as a whole would recognise God's standards and make the laws accordingly, which is historically just what has happened in much of western civilisation.

:::::::: [[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 01:42, 23 October 2008 (EDT)

::::::: [[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 01:42, 23 October 2008 (EDT)

::::::: Sorry, I can't see how the statement in the article is misleading.  You've moved on (to a fair extent) to questioning who decides, but have not managed to argue that they are not based on morals somehow or other.  [[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 01:47, 23 October 2008 (EDT)