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→References: Don't need to go that far; but a few more questions.
::* J. Cochrane, R. Batey and S.A. Strobel. Quantitation of free energy profiles in RNA-ligand interactions by nucleotide analog interference mapping. RNA. 10, 1282-1289 (2003)
::* J. Cochrane, R. Batey and S.A. Strobel. Quantitation of free energy profiles in RNA-ligand interactions by nucleotide analog interference mapping. RNA. 10, 1282-1289 (2003)
:: If you would like I can provide a energy state diagram showing the states for each part and then for the total and provide the mechanisms that the molecules go through to achieve the final formation, all of which are progressively lower in energy therefore allowing for the formation of RNA to be a highly favorable chemical reaction.--[[User:Able806|Able806]] 10:58, 15 January 2009 (EST)
:: If you would like I can provide a energy state diagram showing the states for each part and then for the total and provide the mechanisms that the molecules go through to achieve the final formation, all of which are progressively lower in energy therefore allowing for the formation of RNA to be a highly favorable chemical reaction.--[[User:Able806|Able806]] 10:58, 15 January 2009 (EST)
::: I would like the evidence to be on-line, so that I can easily check it. Or perhaps you could just explain the evidence to me in more detail; that might be enought to convince me. For example, you ask if I want to see evidence of it in nature, but then say that evidence in nature is not conclusive because one can't determine if it came from a living thing or not. So what evidence does exist? Laboratory experiments? (In which case I would want to be convinced that they did replicate natural conditions and didn't rely on living things or intelligent input.) ''Observations'' of RNA occuring naturally? Calculations that show that it should be possible?
::: I would like the evidence to be on-line, so that I can easily check it. Or perhaps you could just explain the evidence to me in more detail; that might be enought to convince me. For example, you ask if I want to see evidence of it in nature, but then say that evidence in nature is not conclusive because one can't determine if it came from a living thing or not. So what evidence does exist? Laboratory experiments? (In which case I would want to be convinced that they did replicate natural conditions and didn't rely on living things or intelligent input.) ''Observations'' of RNA occuring naturally? Calculations that show that it should be possible?
Good morning Philip. All of the references I gave are online. You may view the abstracts at pubmed but you have to go to the journals for the full paper. Consider though, they are old publications and you may find newer research than what I posted (I would suggest biochemistry sources for this topic, molecular bio sources will just lead you to signal transduction work). As for your questions we first have to discuss inference. There is no way to tell the absolute source of an RNA particle unless it encodes for something (that is even a stretch). It is common to find RNA particles consisting of 4 to 10 bases on most surfaces (which are too small to encode anything). Now here is the inference part, if you place the parts needed for forming RNA in a vessel and supplied the right environment, RNA will form on its own. Now why we can infer that RNA occurs naturally is that all the parts of RNA form under the same types of conditions common in nature, all of which occur without influence by living organisms. Now keep in mind I am not suggesting that anything can be done with the RNA that forms, just that it does form. I can give you calculations of the energy states and why it is possible for RNA to form naturally, it will take a little time since I would be doing it by hand (I do not believe there is an easy source online for it). To make sure it makes sense to you, I need to understand how much you know about physical chemistry? You will need to understand a little about free energy and chemical equilibrium of biological molecules (basic chemical thermodynamics) and acid-base equilibria for any of the work to make sense. I can email you the finished diagram (with the equations), since I do not have upload, and you can upload it here if you wish. I have to admit I was looking forward to you asking for calculations; I have not worked on stuff like this since grad school. I am sorry about that formatting and will not use the reference tag on talk pages.--[[User:Able806|Able806]] 11:25, 16 January 2009 (EST)
Good morning Philip. All of the references I gave are online. You may view the abstracts at pubmed but you have to go to the journals for the full paper. Consider though, they are old publications and you may find newer research than what I posted (I would suggest biochemistry sources for this topic, molecular bio sources will just lead you to signal transduction work). As for your questions we first have to discuss inference. There is no way to tell the absolute source of an RNA particle unless it encodes for something (that is even a stretch). It is common to find RNA particles consisting of 4 to 10 bases on most surfaces (which are too small to encode anything). Now here is the inference part, if you place the parts needed for forming RNA in a vessel and supplied the right environment, RNA will form on its own. Now why we can infer that RNA occurs naturally is that all the parts of RNA form under the same types of conditions common in nature, all of which occur without influence by living organisms. Now keep in mind I am not suggesting that anything can be done with the RNA that forms, just that it does form. I can give you calculations of the energy states and why it is possible for RNA to form naturally, it will take a little time since I would be doing it by hand (I do not believe there is an easy source online for it). To make sure it makes sense to you, I need to understand how much you know about physical chemistry? You will need to understand a little about free energy and chemical equilibrium of biological molecules (basic chemical thermodynamics) and acid-base equilibria for any of the work to make sense. I can email you the finished diagram (with the equations), since I do not have upload, and you can upload it here if you wish. I have to admit I was looking forward to you asking for calculations; I have not worked on stuff like this since grad school. I am sorry about that formatting and will not use the reference tag on talk pages.--[[User:Able806|Able806]] 11:25, 16 January 2009 (EST)
: I should have said that I'd like the evidence to be ''readily available'' online, not requiring a payment or subscription. I did try looking for the first one, but although I found a reference, I didn't find an abstract. Perhaps I didn't look far enough.
: I don't understand the physical chemistry enough for your explanation. But we don't need to go that far.
: You didn't give a clear answer, but I still gather that you are saying that RNA found in nature does ''not'' constitute evidence of RNA occurring without the benefit of living things. So unless I gather incorrectly, let's drop that one.
: Your latest answer seems to be saying that we know that RNA can form naturally without living things because it can be produced in a laboratory in an environment that would mimic the supposed pre-life Earth. Okay, if that is truly the case, then I will accept that. However, I still have some questions and concerns.
: You appear to be saying that RNA ''could be'' created in a laboratory. Is this just theoretical, or has this actually been done?
: You say that if you "place the parts needed for forming RNA in a vessel and supplied the right environment, RNA will form on its own". What are these "parts"? Are they themselves parts that are ''known'' to form without the benefit of living things? I want an assurance that these "parts" are not themselves partially-broken-down RNA, for example. Similarly, what is the "right environment"? Does that include molecules that are formed by living things? Or does it include only molecules that might be found, for example, on lifeless Mars?
: Then there's the important question of coding, and the question of definitions. Perhaps the molecules you are talking about match the appearance of RNA, and perhaps they are therefore classified as RNA, but if RNA is supposed to be the first ''code'' of life, and these molecules don't ''code'' for anything, then they aren't really a ''code'' for life then, are they?
: [[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 23:01, 16 January 2009 (EST)