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and Hamlet
:In other words, did Machiavelli actually '''recommend''' that rulers be "Machiavellian", as an ideal of government? I don't think so, any more than [[Pollyanna]] (in the book or even the Disney movie) practiced "unreasonable or blind optimism." [http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/pollyanna] And [[Uncle Tom]]'s attitude was never "to curry favor with whites" but was manifestly an expression of his Christian principles. --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] <sup>[[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]]</sup> 07:00, 21 March 2009 (EDT)
:In other words, did Machiavelli actually '''recommend''' that rulers be "Machiavellian", as an ideal of government? I don't think so, any more than [[Pollyanna]] (in the book or even the Disney movie) practiced "unreasonable or blind optimism." [http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/pollyanna] And [[Uncle Tom]]'s attitude was never "to curry favor with whites" but was manifestly an expression of his Christian principles. --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] <sup>[[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]]</sup> 07:00, 21 March 2009 (EDT)
::Ed raises a very good point. Was M telling tyrants how to do it? or was he warning people "if you don't have a republic you will get a tyrant and here's how he will mistreat you." Scholars have been debating this for years and no one is sure. I incline to the "warning" side because in fact no tyrant needs his advice--they do it naturally, but good citizens do need to be warned. ...speaking of Shakespeare: Macbeth teaches the audience exactly how to be a bad king, but nobody says Shaks. was writing a guidebook for tyrants. [[User:RJJensen|RJJensen]] 07:14, 21 March 2009 (EDT)
::Ed raises a very good point. Was M telling tyrants how to do it? or was he warning people "if you don't have a republic you will get a tyrant and here's how he will mistreat you." Scholars have been debating this for years and no one is sure. I incline to the "warning" side because in fact no tyrant needs his advice--they do it naturally, but good citizens do need to be warned. ...speaking of Shakespeare: Macbeth teaches the audience exactly how to be a bad king, but nobody says Shaks. was writing a guidebook for tyrants. [[User:RJJensen|RJJensen]] 07:14, 21 March 2009 (EDT)
:::Likewise, [[Hamlet]] shows how to fulfill the classic Greek ideal of avenging your father's murder, but for me it's a lesson in the [[unintended consequences]]. The prince murders his girlfriend's father (which drives her to suicide) - bad start for a poorly thought-out plan. --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] <sup>[[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]]</sup> 07:29, 21 March 2009 (EDT)