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Talk:World History Lecture Nine (view source)
Revision as of 13:01, April 6, 2009
, 13:01, April 6, 2009→Non-German 'Great' Composers
:::But I have to agree that Strauss was a great composer! Unfortunately for you, he's '''German'''!--[[User:IScott|IScott]] 22:23, 5 April 2009 (EDT)
:::But I have to agree that Strauss was a great composer! Unfortunately for you, he's '''German'''!--[[User:IScott|IScott]] 22:23, 5 April 2009 (EDT)
:: Just out of curiosity, who do you consider the great German composers? I can only really think of Bach, Handel, Wagner, Strauss, Schumann and Brahms, and of course Beethoven, amongst the most popular composers in the world. There are certainly many composers of the same calibre from other countries.
:: Just out of curiosity, who do you consider the great German composers? I can only really think of Bach, Handel, Wagner, Strauss, Schumann and Brahms, and of course Beethoven, amongst the most popular composers in the world. There are certainly many composers of the same calibre from other countries.
:::The mention of Beethoven is problematic. ''"The greatest composer in the history of the world"'' is an opinion shared by many, though are very many others who would claim the same of Mozart (Austrian), Bach or others. The problem, however, is not that people might disagree with your assessment of Beethoven, but that a composer's greatness cannot be quantified. Things like a composer's technical skill, fame during their lifetime, posthumous reception and their influence on later composers can be approximately known. By these criteria, Beethoven was certainly ''among'' the greatest composers who ever lived. But because of the imprecise nature of this evaluation, we must be content with approximate judgments.
:::Next, the description of his achievements, that he ''"revolutionized instrumental music and took it to new heights never before thought possible"'' is one which was also true of many composers before and since. Perhaps you could say something specific to Beethoven, such as how his 32 piano sonatas have been referred to as "The New Testament of the Piano" (the Old Testament being Bach's 48 preludes and fugues), or that in particular he revolutionized the concept of the Symphony as an art form. Prior to him, the symphony was just a four-movement work for orchestra. Mozart wrote over 50 of them. Haydn wrote over 100. Beethoven's 9 symphonies (from the 3rd onward) expanded the scale, the seriousness, and the emotional breadth of what a symphony could be. Another quotation (I don't have sources for these, as I can't remember who said them) is that every symphonic composer since Beethoven has been writing in his shadow.
:::Finally, the phrase ''"A German like most great composers..."'' is most problematic of all. Beethoven was from a Flemish family, was born and raised in Cologne, which at the time was a principality of the Holy Roman Empire, and spent the majority of his life in Vienna. To say he was "German" is an oversimplification. To say that most great composers were also Germans is thus a distortion of history: Bach and Handel would not have been considered as members of the same country during their lifetimes. Second, it is simply not true that the majority of great composers were German. Even if Germany has had more great composers than other countries, the total number of great non-German composers easily dwarfs the total number of great German composers. (do you claim that the best composers were German, or that the German composers were best? The two claims are not the same) Lastly, ''even if'' your statement was true, what point are you trying to make? What conclusion do you expect your students to draw? That the German people are innately superior to non-Germans, at least as far as music is concerned? Surely the reason for great German composers is that there has been a long culture of music-making, which meant that talented children could be directed towards music (and would have the opportunity to get a better music education than their peers in France)? Such cultures, like the Rugby-playing culture in New Zealand, tend to be self-perpetuating once they get started. --[[User:Eoinc|Eoinc]] 09:01, 6 April 2009 (EDT)