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→Classical vs. Popular (redux)
That being said, there were always of course "songs," like the "Twinkle, Twinkle" example you used. Of course they've always influenced composers, but it's a bit odd to call them "popular music" as such. Did they feed into the eventual pop music genre? Certainly, but it's not the most reliable historical model for talking about earlier music. [[User:JDWpianist|JDWpianist]] 19:18, 7 April 2009 (EDT) [edited 8 April for clarity and more detail]
That being said, there were always of course "songs," like the "Twinkle, Twinkle" example you used. Of course they've always influenced composers, but it's a bit odd to call them "popular music" as such. Did they feed into the eventual pop music genre? Certainly, but it's not the most reliable historical model for talking about earlier music. [[User:JDWpianist|JDWpianist]] 19:18, 7 April 2009 (EDT) [edited 8 April for clarity and more detail]
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To [[User:JDWpianist|JDWpianist]]:
You obviously are far more familiar with the history of music than I am. I had begun to believe that a certain amount of "popular" or "low-brow" music had always been made. But this was not necessarily intended for any concert stage. The kind of "low-brow" music I speak of was performed or sung in taverns, in the farmer's fields, or on shipboard ("sea chanteys"). The content of the lyrics of these songs, especially the last, probably does not bear too detailed a description on a family-friendly site, if you catch my drift.
Ironically, [[Francis Scott Key]]'s stirring poem [[The Star-Spangled Banner]] was ultimately set to the tune of a drinking song. (This probably explains the tremendous pitch range. It is one of the most difficult pieces for any soloist to perform well, because half the time it takes the singer past the treble or bass of his/her range.)
Your defense of 1850 as a date that saw the first performance of "popular music" on the concert stage looks sound. I gather you have references to support your historical analysis. It does make a great deal of sense, especially that it would be connected with the Revolution of 1848 and the ascension of [[Napoleon III]].
I'll definitely accept your division of music into sacred and secular. Actually, my impression was that [[Bach]] considered all his music sacred. I recall—though I cannot find the reference—that Bach once said that one should never put hand to keyboard if one was not prepared to create something beautiful and glorifying to God. (I also recall the story behind his ''Tocatta in D Minor'': that a local priest invited him to test the new church organ, or to give the organ a workout to blow the dust from all its pipes, and Bach composed this piece to satisfy the utilitarian requirement without sounding utilitarian in the least.)
Then again, Bach never wrote anything that he wouldn't be ashamed to hear performed on the concert stage. You mentioned his piano compositions; I gather you mean chiefly his ''Inventionen'' and ''Sinfonien.'' And I can confirm that those were primers to teach his small children to play. Modern primers are wooden and mechanical; Bach's two- and three-part inventions, by contrast, are as elegant as finely machined Swiss watches.
Back to the history section: I haven't looked at it in awhile, and possibly much of what you attribute to me represents the contributions of others who have come after me. You seem to have a sound analysis. Go ahead, though I would emphasize that 1850 was the first year in which "popular music" was performed in concert. Music is music, and any song is music. (My choir director once asked scathingly whether I considered myself a musician or a singer, by way of inducing me to co-ordinate my voice properly with other voices.) The difference is that what I call "popular music" made it onto the concert stage in or near the year that you named, and before had been sung only in strictly informal settings.--[[User:TerryH|TerryH]]<sup>[[User talk:TerryH|Talk]]</sup> 12:47, 8 April 2009 (EDT)