Changes

== Truth or word ==

== Truth or word ==

While I agree "truth" has too narrow a meaning, at first glance, it may serve the purpose well when explained properly.  Sadly, many Christians believe that "word" refers to the Bible itself, rather than the deep concept of ''logos''.  Is there a better term than either?  Message? [[User:DouglasA|DouglasA]] 22:12, 26 August 2009 (EDT)

While I agree "truth" has too narrow a meaning, at first glance, it may serve the purpose well when explained properly.  Sadly, many Christians believe that "word" refers to the Bible itself, rather than the deep concept of ''logos''.  Is there a better term than either?  Message? [[User:DouglasA|DouglasA]] 22:12, 26 August 2009 (EDT)

: Your point is an excellent one, not because of your site, but because Christ rose on the "third day" (which was two days after Friday).--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 22:08, 7 October 2009 (EDT)

: Your point is an excellent one, not because of your site, but because Christ rose on the "third day" (which was two days after Friday).--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 22:08, 7 October 2009 (EDT)

== Logos = the Word ==

== 2:23 ==

There really shouldn't be much of a debate over using "Truth" or "Word" in John 1:1.  In the Greek text, the word logos is used, which refers to something being said.  Hence "Word" is better than "Truth".  Also, truth in Greek is aletheia, and that word is not in the text.

It is not actually the Greek of this sentence that reveals their faith was superficial, but Jesus' reaction to their "faith" that is illuminating. Jesus understood that their faith was fleeting and transitory, which by definition means it was superficial.

:I do not think word or truth are all that great. Both fail to capture the connotation in λόγος of that which is being spoken of, mandate, law decree. Word is one literal translation of λόγος but without the idiomatic meaning people may or may not actually derive from John 1:1 it's still just a literal translation. Truth does not even weakly refer to that which is being spoken of except to editorialize by making a judgment (calling the mandate a truth, which of course it is but this doesn't capture the meaning of the words in Greek).  Word is fine if you want to be a literalist about it because that is literally what λόγος means. But if you want some poetry in a Bible that's accurate and a pleasure to read, you could refer to the λόγος being a causal necessity, mandate, law, etc. because what I take John 1:1 to be saying very beautifully is that God was always there, even at the beginning and that it couldn't have been any other way. [[User:Cambrian|Cambrian]] 11:15, 16 October 2009 (EDT)

:: This is a fascinating dilemma.  The unsigned first comment above fails to address how the term "word" is diluted in modern English.  But the second comment above seems to downplay be the strong commonality between λόγος and the modern meaning of Truth.  Still, I agree we should search for a better term.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 11:23, 16 October 2009 (EDT)

== 2:24-25 ==

 

:::Truth doesn't seem to be an apt term here though, logos as word here is more of a ordering, rational force, which makes sense given the audience that John was writing this gospel for.  To translate it as truth doesn't do justice to what logos fully means.  Aletheia, a word for truth is a truth of disclosure, something 'exposes' itself to be true to one.  Heidegger uses this idea to great effect in his 'Intro to Metaphysics.'  Truth for the Greeks wouldn't have been logos.  I prefer the translation of logos=reason or ordering force.--[[User:Rcgallup|Rcgallup]] 11:39, 16 October 2009 (EDT)

::::There is no Greek word for "Truth" with a capital "T".  "λόγος" is probably the closest substitute John could find.  As to "reason" or "ordering force," they seem to lack the spiritual side, which Truth captures better.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 11:43, 16 October 2009 (EDT)

The Greek word translated "understood" in V24 and "knew" in V25 is "ginosko," and is deeper than just "knowing"; it means, "to perceive, to understand, to know absolutely." The point here is that Jesus was sinless and innocent, but He was NOT naive. He understood the fickleness and evil that men were capable of, no matter what they "confessed" to believe. A simple "confession of faith" did not equal true believer, and did not mean the faith was sincere.