Changes

<br>12) Medicare: yest hat was a liberal position Kennedy took. The articles says that he had a mixed record on domestic issues.

<br>12) Medicare: yest hat was a liberal position Kennedy took. The articles says that he had a mixed record on domestic issues.

<br>13) "uncited and biased new article."  if you call CP administrators names you'll get in trouble.  I actually read all the books that are listed and I expect people to be familiar with come of them before they jump in.  I you want to propose a paragraph, run it thrugh here first.[[User:RJJensen|RJJensen]] 20:37, 8 November 2009 (EST)

<br>13) "uncited and biased new article."  if you call CP administrators names you'll get in trouble.  I actually read all the books that are listed and I expect people to be familiar with come of them before they jump in.  I you want to propose a paragraph, run it thrugh here first.[[User:RJJensen|RJJensen]] 20:37, 8 November 2009 (EST)

 

No one is calling you any names, for one. It is a matter of solid fact that the revision you put into the new article has very few citations and many statements of opinion that wouldn't be found in any reputable encyclopedia, conservative or otherwise. A statement like "Kennedy was basically a conservative, but he had to appeal to a primarily liberal base, so he offered symbols for the liberals while following a conservative course in foreign and domestic policy" that doesn't have a citation has no business being there.

No one is calling you any names, for one. It is a matter of solid fact that the revision you put into the new article has very few citations and many statements of opinion that wouldn't be found in any reputable encyclopedia, conservative or otherwise. A statement like "Kennedy was basically a conservative, but he had to appeal to a primarily liberal base, so he offered symbols for the liberals while following a conservative course in foreign and domestic policy" that doesn't have a citation has no business being there.

 

Re: your list:

Re: your list:<br>

1.) Re-read what I wrote concerning Kennedy and Vietnam, and watch The Fog of War. Kennedy made the commitment, but he also began taking the steps necessary to withdraw. In discussing this issue in the article, we should take steps to show that Kennedy became conflicted as the war dragged on. Take a look at this http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5hs2AWQQgQffeC3pmWebC22GqdBGwD9BO80E80

1.) Re-read what I wrote concerning Kennedy and Vietnam, and watch The Fog of War. Kennedy made the commitment, but he also began taking the steps necessary to withdraw. In discussing this issue in the article, we should take steps to show that Kennedy became conflicted as the war dragged on. Take a look at this http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5hs2AWQQgQffeC3pmWebC22GqdBGwD9BO80E80<br>

2.) Any sources for this claim? If you can provide some, I'm willing to concede the point and agree with you. However, in all that I've read, I have never seen such treaties described as being conservative.

2.) Any sources for this claim? If you can provide some, I'm willing to concede the point and agree with you. However, in all that I've read, I have never seen such treaties described as being conservative.<br>

3.) Of course it was praised by Reagan; typically, when a president is trying to get a measure passed that has broad support within their base but little-to-none from the other party, they will invoke the memory of a president from the other party. Bush II did this with Franklin Roosevelt and Social Security. Candidate John Kerry did this with Ronald Reagan in talking about his foreign policy, etc. As I stated before, you're right, no liberal would pass a tax cut like this nowadays. HOWEVER, with it being a demand-side tax cut designed to benefit the working class (rather than a trickle-down tax cut), this is not something that many conservatives would enact either.

3.) Of course it was praised by Reagan; typically, when a president is trying to get a measure passed that has broad support within their base but little-to-none from the other party, they will invoke the memory of a president from the other party. Bush II did this with Franklin Roosevelt and Social Security. Candidate John Kerry did this with Ronald Reagan in talking about his foreign policy, etc. As I stated before, you're right, no liberal would pass a tax cut like this nowadays. HOWEVER, with it being a demand-side tax cut designed to benefit the working class (rather than a trickle-down tax cut), this is not something that many conservatives would enact either.<br>

4.) Whether what Kennedy described also applies to today's liberals is irrelevant. My point in bringing it up was to show you that your claim in the article--"Kennedy refused to call himself a liberal"--is patently inaccurate.

4.) Whether what Kennedy described also applies to today's liberals is irrelevant. My point in bringing it up was to show you that your claim in the article--"Kennedy refused to call himself a liberal"--is patently inaccurate.<br>

5.) Your response here is simply inaccurate. Yes, Kennedy enforced court orders. And you're right, he was not a prominent supporter of civil rights for MOST of his life. But by 1963, this was changing. Again, I direct you to the speech he gave June 11, 1963. In it, he proposed what would become the Civil Rights Act of 1964. You can find a transcript here: http://www.jfklibrary.org/Historical+Resources/Archives/Reference+Desk/Speeches/JFK/003POF03CivilRights06111963.htm

5.) Your response here is simply inaccurate. Yes, Kennedy enforced court orders. And you're right, he was not a prominent supporter of civil rights for MOST of his life. But by 1963, this was changing. Again, I direct you to the speech he gave June 11, 1963. In it, he proposed what would become the Civil Rights Act of 1964. You can find a transcript here: http://www.jfklibrary.org/Historical+Resources/Archives/Reference+Desk/Speeches/JFK/003POF03CivilRights06111963.htm<br>

6.) The sponsors of the Immigration and Nationality Act (which reformed the quotas)--Rep. Emanuel Celler and Sens. Phillip Hart and Ted Kennedy--were all Democrats. All opposition either came from Republicans or conservative Southern Democrats. I would describe this as a middle-of-the-road act at best. Kennedy considered this to be a matter of civil rights; http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/ws/index.php?pid=60440

6.) The sponsors of the Immigration and Nationality Act (which reformed the quotas)--Rep. Emanuel Celler and Sens. Phillip Hart and Ted Kennedy--were all Democrats. All opposition either came from Republicans or conservative Southern Democrats. I would describe this as a middle-of-the-road act at best. Kennedy considered this to be a matter of civil rights; http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/ws/index.php?pid=60440<br>

7.) I never disagreed with you here. All I did was state that these were NOT issues during the time Kennedy was active in politics (1948-1963). NO ONE supported gay rights or abortion at that time. By that measure, FDR and Truman would both be conservatives, as neither of them spoke out in favor of either. Furthermore, your claim that he "always voted the conservative Catholic position on such issues" is also incorrect, as 1.) Those issues never came up in the senate, and 2.) There is no public record of John F. Kennedy's position on abortion or gay rights.

7.) I never disagreed with you here. All I did was state that these were NOT issues during the time Kennedy was active in politics (1948-1963). NO ONE supported gay rights or abortion at that time; neither were political issues. By that measure, FDR and Truman would both be conservatives, as neither of them spoke out in favor of either. You can't hold Kennedy to standards that didn't exist. Furthermore, your claim that he "always voted the conservative Catholic position on such issues" is also incorrect, as 1.) Those issues never came up in the senate, and 2.) There is no public record of John F. Kennedy's position on abortion or gay rights.<br>

8.) I'm glad we agree

8.) I'm glad we agree<br>

9.) More than admiring FDR's political skills, he also admired (most of) his policy decisions. Refer to Kennedy's speeches on Medicare, or again to "Ask Not" for more.

9.) More than admiring FDR's political skills, he also admired (most of) his policy decisions. Refer to Kennedy's speeches on Medicare, or again to "Ask Not" for more.<br>

10.) Whether JFK agreed with his dad is irrelevant. My reason in bringing up Joe Sr.'s appeasement beliefs was to refute your claim that the Kennedy family "represented the conservative wing of the Democratic party." That was not true during Joe Sr.'s time, and it wasn't true during JFK, RFK, and Ted's time.

10.) Whether JFK agreed with his dad is irrelevant. My reason in bringing up Joe Sr.'s appeasement beliefs was to refute your claim that the Kennedy family "represented the conservative wing of the Democratic party." That was not true during Joe Sr.'s time, and it wasn't true during JFK, RFK, and Ted's time.<br>

11.) Your statement here that Eleanor was a "CONSERVATIVE" flies in the face of what you said earlier (that she was one of the liberals that Kennedy opposed). Which is it?

11.) Your statement here that Eleanor was a "CONSERVATIVE" flies in the face of what you said earlier (that she was one of the liberals that Kennedy opposed). Which is it?<br>

12.) No disagreements here. This was, however, in response to your claim that Kennedy "never championed Medicare." Clearly, he did. At least you admitted you were wrong.

12.) No disagreements here. This was, however, in response to your claim that Kennedy "never championed Medicare." Clearly, he did. At least you admitted you were wrong.<br>

 

Have you really read the books I listed? Much less, viewed the speeches or other links I provided? Clearly, you still have some misconceptions about his record.

Have you really read the books I listed? Much less, viewed the speeches or other links I provided? Clearly, you still have some misconceptions about his record.

 

Also, I am not suggesting we revise the article to say that Kennedy was a flaming liberal. Of course he wasn't. But the way it stands now--with Kennedy being described as "basically conservative"--is simply inaccurate. Between Medicare, civil rights, $3.19 billion being spent on government housing, the promotion of the Department of Urban Affairs, the Peace Corps, his move to abolish the death penalty in DC, and reforming the quota system, clearly he was not "basically conservative." This article needs to take a more nuanced view, and reflect the fact that Kennedy held MANY liberal positions in addition to having some strong conservative stances as well.

Also, I am not suggesting we revise the article to say that Kennedy was a flaming liberal. Of course he wasn't. But the way it stands now--with Kennedy being described as "basically conservative"--is simply inaccurate. Between Medicare, civil rights, $3.19 billion being spent on government housing, the promotion of the Department of Urban Affairs, the Peace Corps, his move to abolish the death penalty in DC, and reforming the quota system, clearly he was not "basically conservative." This article needs to take a more nuanced view, and reflect the fact that Kennedy held MANY liberal positions in addition to having some strong conservative stances as well.

 

As a final note, I would appreciate it (simply from a perspective of readability) if you could type more accurately and with less typos. As it stands now, your typos are frequent and egregious, and it takes me several moments to figure out what you mean. I don't mean this personally, it's just something that I'm struggling with; as a college professor, I'm sure you understand. [[User:ChuckR|ChuckR]] 21:20, 8 November 2009 (EST)

As a final note, I would appreciate it (simply from a perspective of readability) if you could type more accurately and with less typos. As it stands now, your typos are frequent and egregious, and it takes me several moments to figure out what you mean. I don't mean this personally, it's just something that I'm struggling with; as a college professor, I'm sure you understand. [[User:ChuckR|ChuckR]] 21:20, 8 November 2009 (EST)