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Talk:Counterexamples to Evolution (view source)
Revision as of 07:31, May 23, 2011
, 07:31, May 23, 2011→Objection: My answers in italics
A4- Patently false, see the aforementioned CCR-5 receptor gene mutation.
A4- Patently false, see the aforementioned CCR-5 receptor gene mutation.
:''And your proof rendering it false is..?''
A6- This misses a big part of evolutionary biology; gender does not equal species. The two genders of the same species will not evolve apart from each other unless they are part of two separate groups of the same species that are not allowed to genetically mix for several hundred generations.
A6- This misses a big part of evolutionary biology; gender does not equal species. The two genders of the same species will not evolve apart from each other unless they are part of two separate groups of the same species that are not allowed to genetically mix for several hundred generations.
A7- Yes, there are. Mules are the infertile off-spring of a male donkey and a female horse. Donkeys and horses are both members of the Equidae family, both species having evolved from a common ancestor, the Hyracotherium, which lived during the early Eocene period. Horses and donkeys can no longer produce viable offspring and thus the process of separate lines of evolution have rendered these animals too genetically dissimilar to have viable offspring. This is the process of speciation.
A7- Yes, there are. Mules are the infertile off-spring of a male donkey and a female horse. Donkeys and horses are both members of the Equidae family, both species having evolved from a common ancestor, the Hyracotherium, which lived during the early Eocene period. Horses and donkeys can no longer produce viable offspring and thus the process of separate lines of evolution have rendered these animals too genetically dissimilar to have viable offspring. This is the process of speciation.
:''No, there are no records of this happening. You did not see the horse evolve from Hyracotherium, nor from Pliohippus, nor from Mesohippus, nor from the Banana Splits. If this was the case, then you should be able to recreate the domestic dog from the wolf right now.''
A8- Such egocentric behaviors benefit the INDIVIDUAL human life; lying and stealing gain more for the individual and increase the chances it will survive. Additionally, psychopathy is an aberration in psychological development, not a trait.
A8- Such egocentric behaviors benefit the INDIVIDUAL human life; lying and stealing gain more for the individual and increase the chances it will survive. Additionally, psychopathy is an aberration in psychological development, not a trait.
:''Lying and stealing is a benefit? What kind of nonsense is that?''
A9- The listed organisms haven’t changed greatly because they have had little to no evolutionary pressure to do so. They are well adapted to their environment and thus natural selection is not doing much to push the species. The process of speciation happens fastest in a high-stress environment where a species has to react or face extinction.
A9- The listed organisms haven’t changed greatly because they have had little to no evolutionary pressure to do so. They are well adapted to their environment and thus natural selection is not doing much to push the species. The process of speciation happens fastest in a high-stress environment where a species has to react or face extinction.
:''Then recreate a domestic dog in the lab directly from the wolf.''
B2- “Information” is not a scientific term nor is it defined on this website (in a scientific context).
B2- “Information” is not a scientific term nor is it defined on this website (in a scientific context).
:''So?''
B5 and 6- This is entirely subjective and as such does not have a place in an objective theory or critique of a theory. Additionally, the theory of evolution does not have to nor does it purport to explain aesthetics. Evolution explains the diversity of life. This point demonstrates a lack of understanding regarding evolutionary theory.
B5 and 6- This is entirely subjective and as such does not have a place in an objective theory or critique of a theory. Additionally, the theory of evolution does not have to nor does it purport to explain aesthetics. Evolution explains the diversity of life. This point demonstrates a lack of understanding regarding evolutionary theory.
:''So we all should accept the scientist's word that evolution is a fact, regardless of the lack of facts supporting the theory beyond the scientist's word?''
B7- This shows absolutely nothing. If it’s like clockwork, then why is it 13 years for some parts of the world and 17 for other parts?
B7- This shows absolutely nothing. If it’s like clockwork, then why is it 13 years for some parts of the world and 17 for other parts?
:''No, it shows that there are two species of insect that lie dormant for nearly two decades doing absolutely nothing. What is the evolutionary explanation for that?''
B9- “Information” is not a scientific term nor is it defined on this website (in a scientific context).
B9- “Information” is not a scientific term nor is it defined on this website (in a scientific context).
B12- Complete speculation, we have no way of determining if other animals lack consciousness. We infer this from our lack of ability to communicate, but we cannot objectively demonstrate that we are the only creatures with a consciousness.
B12- Complete speculation, we have no way of determining if other animals lack consciousness. We infer this from our lack of ability to communicate, but we cannot objectively demonstrate that we are the only creatures with a consciousness.
:''If it's not speculation, then we would be observing animals doing the things that humans do, much like they would in a Far Side cartoon.''
B13- Speculation again, additionally evolution does not predict nor explain the presence of higher intellectual functions in humans.
B13- Speculation again, additionally evolution does not predict nor explain the presence of higher intellectual functions in humans.
:''Evolution is speculation.''
B14- The processes that such parasites go through are well understood and documented
B14- The processes that such parasites go through are well understood and documented
B16- The temperature of the ambient water drops as you approach the poles, as such, a fish who gradually developed the genes for enduring in colder water could progress further north or south until they could withstand very cold temperatures. This process is well known and documented
B16- The temperature of the ambient water drops as you approach the poles, as such, a fish who gradually developed the genes for enduring in colder water could progress further north or south until they could withstand very cold temperatures. This process is well known and documented
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11181960
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11181960
:''But did they see this evolving take place? No.''
B18- In many cases, we can look to the natural world for causes. Darwin’s famous finches are an example, many different subspecies of the same parent species evolved when several populations were established on the islands by birds blown onto the island by storms.
B18- In many cases, we can look to the natural world for causes. Darwin’s famous finches are an example, many different subspecies of the same parent species evolved when several populations were established on the islands by birds blown onto the island by storms.
:''And the proof of the evolving happening...?''
C1- Evolution does not nor does it purport to explain the behavior of jellyfish.
C1- Evolution does not nor does it purport to explain the behavior of jellyfish.
:''Because it cannot.''
C3- The subjective human idea of what is “good” and “bad” are not factors in evolution.
C3- The subjective human idea of what is “good” and “bad” are not factors in evolution.
:''Then we would all behave like animals.''
C4- I cannot speak for Dawkins, but the occurrence of things like altruism in animals is fairly well understood. Altruistic behavior is a way for social groups to reinforce their bonds and improve the cohesion of the group itself. This behavior has been well documented among apes who will often give gifts to other apes in the same group for future favors. The behavior is never (to my knowledge) displayed in non-social species.
C4- I cannot speak for Dawkins, but the occurrence of things like altruism in animals is fairly well understood. Altruistic behavior is a way for social groups to reinforce their bonds and improve the cohesion of the group itself. This behavior has been well documented among apes who will often give gifts to other apes in the same group for future favors. The behavior is never (to my knowledge) displayed in non-social species.
:''And the Australian bower bird?''
C5- A mutation is not necessarily bad. A person’s genome has something like 10,000 mutations in it before that person is even born and most of us do pretty well.
C5- A mutation is not necessarily bad. A person’s genome has something like 10,000 mutations in it before that person is even born and most of us do pretty well.
:''And still, we're not evolving; the X-Men are still relegated to the comics.''
C6- Some of us do have an immunity (or nearly so) to the HIV due to our exposure to the Black Death in our genetic past. HIV is not virulent enough to clear large sections of our
C6- Some of us do have an immunity (or nearly so) to the HIV due to our exposure to the Black Death in our genetic past. HIV is not virulent enough to clear large sections of our population who aren’t immune. With a disease like the Black Death, it left enough people with immunity alive to reproduce and successfully repopulate, creating a population that was resistant or immune to the disease that caused the Black Death. At least until it returned after mutating.
population who aren’t immune. With a disease like the Black Death, it left enough people with immunity alive to reproduce and successfully repopulate, creating a population that was resistant or immune to the disease that caused the Black Death. At least until it returned after mutating.
:''Or the rats could have died, leaving a large number of infected fleas with no where to go except in the bellies of various species of birds.''
C7- Traits are only selected out of a population if there is evolutionary pressure to do so. There has been little to no pressure on the human population to eradicate schizophrenia. If we were to start executing all schizophrenic people, then we’d see our instances of people developing the disorder drop after several dozen successive generations because the genes that make us susceptible to schizophrenia would not be passed on. And we do have a fairly good idea that genetics plays a big role in determining the manifesting of schizophrenia.
C7- Traits are only selected out of a population if there is evolutionary pressure to do so. There has been little to no pressure on the human population to eradicate schizophrenia. If we were to start executing all schizophrenic people, then we’d see our instances of people developing the disorder drop after several dozen successive generations because the genes that make us susceptible to schizophrenia would not be passed on. And we do have a fairly good idea that genetics plays a big role in determining the manifesting of schizophrenia.
:''They tried that before and it didn't work; the place was Nazi Germany. Today, a bunch of liberals here are demanding similar programs.''
C8- I only decreases the likelihood of finding a mate because we make a conscious choice to find it un-attractive. It hasn’t been selected out of our population because most men go bald AFTER they reproduce and the genes have already been passed on.
C8- I only decreases the likelihood of finding a mate because we make a conscious choice to find it un-attractive. It hasn’t been selected out of our population because most men go bald AFTER they reproduce and the genes have already been passed on.
D1- The human body has dozens of vestigial traits that have no current use. We do know what they are used for in other creatures and in apes and we don’t/cant use them in that way. The goosebump response is a prime example, goosebumps form on our skin when scared to make us look bigger, but no human has enough body hair to make this happen anymore. We also don’t have enough body hair for it to provide insulation. There are several muscles and muscle groups that serve no function in the human body, The human eye has something called the plica semilunaris, a musculature remnant of the nictitating membrane that many other creatures have (and we do not).
D1- The human body has dozens of vestigial traits that have no current use. We do know what they are used for in other creatures and in apes and we don’t/cant use them in that way. The goosebump response is a prime example, goosebumps form on our skin when scared to make us look bigger, but no human has enough body hair to make this happen anymore. We also don’t have enough body hair for it to provide insulation. There are several muscles and muscle groups that serve no function in the human body, The human eye has something called the plica semilunaris, a musculature remnant of the nictitating membrane that many other creatures have (and we do not).
:''And of course all of our hair evolved away, with some scientist or two writing out convenient excuses as to why...without anything other than their word to back it up.''
D2- Junk DNA is a well-documented phenomenon in the human genome and is detailed in even the most elementary book on the subject of genetics.
D2- Junk DNA is a well-documented phenomenon in the human genome and is detailed in even the most elementary book on the subject of genetics.
:''And it's the opposite of evolution's basic trend of "things getting better over time."''
D3- This point demonstrates a lack of understanding about how evolution works. Evolution does not “design”. It merely allows natural selection to remove organisms that are less suited for their environment such that their genetic information is not passed on. The human spine and sinus system are not fatal in their current configuration and as such there is no evolutionary pressure to stop people from passing on the genes for the setup of these systems.
D3- This point demonstrates a lack of understanding about how evolution works. Evolution does not “design”. It merely allows natural selection to remove organisms that are less suited for their environment such that their genetic information is not passed on. The human spine and sinus system are not fatal in their current configuration and as such there is no evolutionary pressure to stop people from passing on the genes for the setup of these systems.
:''So the point is "hit or miss"? That leaves out natural selection entirely.''
D4- Very often our teeth ARE over-crowded and often some must be manually removed.
D4- Very often our teeth ARE over-crowded and often some must be manually removed.
:''And what is the evolutionary advantage to having teeth that must be manually-removed? And what is the evolutionary advantage of a mayfly to evolve with no way to eat, or of a woman to have a painful childbirth?''
D5- This point does not take into account the mountain of environmental factors that contribute towards this trend.
D5- This point does not take into account the mountain of environmental factors that contribute towards this trend.
:''Mankind can live anywhere, regardless of the "mountain of environmental factors"...and just where is this mountain?''
D7- Drug-resistant pathogens are a perfect example of natural selection. In the case of MRSA, some of the Staphylococcus aureus bacteria have developed with a structure that renders them immune or resistant to beta-lactam antibiotics. The bacteria that are not resistant to the antibiotics die when antibiotics are introduced into their environment and there is suddenly a gap left that the resistant strain quickly multiplies to fill.
D7- Drug-resistant pathogens are a perfect example of natural selection. In the case of MRSA, some of the Staphylococcus aureus bacteria have developed with a structure that renders them immune or resistant to beta-lactam antibiotics. The bacteria that are not resistant to the antibiotics die when antibiotics are introduced into their environment and there is suddenly a gap left that the resistant strain quickly multiplies to fill.
:''Some humans have gained immunity from snake venom over time, but we've never seen fangs on any of their kids.''
E1- Both toothed and baleen whales can trace their ancestral divergence to the Aetiocetus, the precursor to modern whales and dolphins. Interestingly enough, the Aetiocetus is an example of a transitional fossil.
E1- Both toothed and baleen whales can trace their ancestral divergence to the Aetiocetus, the precursor to modern whales and dolphins. Interestingly enough, the Aetiocetus is an example of a transitional fossil.
:''Again, you're making a statement based on assumption. Where's the proof?''
E2- Incorrect, we can trace the lineage of horses back to the Family Palaeotheriidae, which gave rise to modern horses, tapirs, and rhinoceros. Additionally, simply because a specific fossil has not been found yet, doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. We have basal forms of horses and we have fossilized horse ancestors, so logically there IS an intermediary fossil.
E2- Incorrect, we can trace the lineage of horses back to the Family Palaeotheriidae, which gave rise to modern horses, tapirs, and rhinoceros. Additionally, simply because a specific fossil has not been found yet, doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. We have basal forms of horses and we have fossilized horse ancestors, so logically there IS an intermediary fossil.
:''Again, you're making a statement based on assumption. Where's the proof?''
E3- Literally thousands of transitional fossils have been found.
E3- Literally thousands of transitional fossils have been found.
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-transitional.html
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-transitional.html
:''Did the scientist prove they are transitionals? Did the scientists see these transitionals change from one animal into another, or do we have to take their word that it happened?''
E4- The process is well documented
E4- The process is well documented
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK28332/
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK28332/
:''Only if you're a cell.''
E7- Right here http://www.evolution-textbook.org/content/free/figures/25_EVOW_Art/01_EVOW_CH25.jpg
E7- Right here http://www.evolution-textbook.org/content/free/figures/25_EVOW_Art/01_EVOW_CH25.jpg
:''Not good enough. You have to quit assuming that evolution is true and demand that the scientist prove it. ''Saying'' Ardipithicus is an ancestor is fer different that ''proving'' it.''
F1- Raptorex’s validity has been called into question by the scientific community and (last I was aware) there were questions being raised if Raptorex wasn’t simply a baby Tyrannosaurs.
F1- Raptorex’s validity has been called into question by the scientific community and (last I was aware) there were questions being raised if Raptorex wasn’t simply a baby Tyrannosaurs.
G4- There are several examples of animals with wings that are also flightless but none the less are able to use their wings for other purposes.
G4- There are several examples of animals with wings that are also flightless but none the less are able to use their wings for other purposes.
:''Again, there is no provable example of this happening beyond the scientist's word that it happened.''
G5- This staple argument of irreducible complexity has been thoroughly demolished
G5- This staple argument of irreducible complexity has been thoroughly demolished
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RQQ7ubVIqo4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RQQ7ubVIqo4
:''Ken Miller talks about the bacterial flagellum as if that's a good thing. Did he create a dog from a wolf, as his fellow scientists stated has happened? No. Miller's explanation did not demolish anything.''
H1- Citing yourself is very VERY poor form.
H1- Citing yourself is very VERY poor form.
:''The page has links off-site; you never bothered to check.''
H2- This is speculation and as such does not belong in an objective article.
H2- This is speculation and as such does not belong in an objective article.
:''How is it speculation?''
H3- The link for this is extremely poor, no names are provided to check the source and the scientist who allegedly announced this is un-named. It is a poorly sourced statement and
H3- The link for this is extremely poor, no names are provided to check the source and the scientist who allegedly announced this is un-named. It is a poorly sourced statement and should be removed.
should be removed.
:''You have not provided sources for nearly everything you put here.''
H4- Speculation again. We have no way of determining if other animals do or do not have religion.
H4- Speculation again. We have no way of determining if other animals do or do not have religion.
:''That statement is a cop-out; we know what higher animals exist on the planet, and so far none have built schools, written books, or produced their genealogical heritage, let alone went to church and prayed. But we do have a lot of liberals who think they have "rights".''
H5- “Kind” is not a scientific term
H5- “Kind” is not a scientific term
:''"Kind" is a Biblical term for species. What's the problem?''
H6- Evolution does not purport to explain the aesthetic nature of kidneys.
H6- Evolution does not purport to explain the aesthetic nature of kidneys.
H8- Advancing evolution does not require one to be anti-religious. The theory of evolution does not deal with religion whatsoever
H8- Advancing evolution does not require one to be anti-religious. The theory of evolution does not deal with religion whatsoever
:''It is anti-religious, because it throws out God. How many evolutionary scientists have no problem with teaching creation in our schools? None.''
This article is extremely poorly written and doesn’t stand up to even the most elementary understanding of the topics involved. It’s evident that the author(s) did not understand evolutionary theory and had a poor understanding of genetics as well as biology and other associated sciences. This article has no place on an objective website and should be removed or severely modified. --[[User:HarabecW|HarabecW]] 13:49, 14 May 2011 (EDT)
This article is extremely poorly written and doesn’t stand up to even the most elementary understanding of the topics involved. It’s evident that the author(s) did not understand evolutionary theory and had a poor understanding of genetics as well as biology and other associated sciences. This article has no place on an objective website and should be removed or severely modified. --[[User:HarabecW|HarabecW]] 13:49, 14 May 2011 (EDT)