Changes

I believe God ALLOWED evil to exist but did not CREATE it. He allowed Satan to rebel and for evil to exist in order that God be glorified. It's hard for mere mortal man to fathom such a concept. Without evil, Christ would not have needed to come to earth and die on the cross for the salvation of man. But in the end, God will become the ultimate victor, Satan will be destroyed, and God will be glorified for all eternity. --[[User:Watchman|Watchman]] 23:27, 8 January 2008 (EST)

I believe God ALLOWED evil to exist but did not CREATE it. He allowed Satan to rebel and for evil to exist in order that God be glorified. It's hard for mere mortal man to fathom such a concept. Without evil, Christ would not have needed to come to earth and die on the cross for the salvation of man. But in the end, God will become the ultimate victor, Satan will be destroyed, and God will be glorified for all eternity. --[[User:Watchman|Watchman]] 23:27, 8 January 2008 (EST)

This is the biggest issue with the whole bible, and Christianity.

This is the biggest issue with the whole bible, and christianity.

If you say that God is all powerful, and that there isn't anything he can't do..

If you say that God is all powerful, and that there isn't anything he can't do..

Why did he then (if he created everything) create men on earth which were evil in their nature (at least after a while) and began to both destroy themself and everything else on earth, if god was all-powerful, he should have been able to create humans who did not have any hate in them and nothing of evil at all.

Why did he then (if he created everything) create men on earth which were evil in their nature (at least after a while) and began to both destroy themself and everything else on earth, if god was allpowerful, he should have been able to create humans who did not have any hate in them and nothing of evil at all.

But since that's not the case, that only leave's us with two possible answers:

But since thats not the case, that only leave's us with two possible answers:

1) Good isn't all-powerful and was newer able to create a perfect world, and the statement's in the bible most is obviously wrong.

1) Good isn't allpowerfull and was newer able to create a perfect world, and the statement's in the bible most is obviously wrong.

2) The worst one,  God is evil.

2) The worst one,  God is evil.

If God had all the powers in the world to create whatever he'd wanted, why did he create a humanity which has so many bad sides about them, like killing each other, killing other animals, torture, rape and everything like that.

If God had all the powers in the world to create whatever he'd wanted, why did he create a humanity which has so many bad sides about them, like killing each other, killing other animals, torture, rape and everything like that.

If God truly is all-powerful and have the ability to create whatever he want,  

If God truly is allpowerful and have the abilty to create whatever he want,  

then God must, without no denying be the biggest sadist in the entire world. --[[User:Nabroon|Nabroon]] 06:20, 5 March 2008 (EST)

then God must, without no denying be the biggest sadist in the enitire world. --[[User:Nabroon|Nabroon]] 06:20, 5 March 2008 (EST)

It’s neither of those. God originally created the world and humanity in a perfect state. There was no evil at first. But, then people made the choice to sin and commit evil deeds. It’s because people have the freedom to choose that evil exists. God could have created a world where evil could not arise in it, but then He would have had to take away free will. Any time you give a person a choice, you have to accept that fact that they may make the wrong choice. If you take away free will, then people would simply be pre-programmed robots. God wants people to love Him, but He doesn’t want to force them to. God could either have robots who love Him only because they have no other alternative, or He could have people who love Him and freely choose to.  Which would you prefer? Just about everyone would agree they would prefer somebody to choose to love them. That’s how God wants it, too. But that works under the premise that some will choose not too, and that people will choose evil. [[Ultimahero]] March 20 2008.

It’s neither of those. God originally created the world and humanity in a perfect state. There was no evil at first. But, then people made the choice to sin and commit evil deeds. It’s because people have the freedom to choose that evil exists. God could have created a world where evil could not arise in it, but then He would have had to take away free will. Anytime you give a person a choice, you have to accept that fact that they may make the wrong choice. If you take away free will, then people would simply be pre-programmed robots. God want’s people to love Him, but He doesn’t want to force them to. God could either have robots who love Him only because they have no other alternative, or He could have people who love Him and freely choose to.  Which would you prefer? Just about everyone would agree they would prefer somebody to choose to love them. That’s how God wants it, too. But that works under the premise that some will choose not too, and that people will choose evil. [[Ultimahero]] March 20 2008.

How, then, do you reconcile the Serpent?  Did he not exist prior to man's choice?  Was he not evil prior to that choice?  I suppose an argument could be made that the Serpent was meant metaphorically, but that doesn't jibe well with the position that Genesis is meant to be read literally.  --[[User:Benp|Benp]] 17:28, 10 June 2008 (EDT)

How, then, do you reconcile the Serpent?  Did he not exist prior to man's choice?  Was he not evil prior to that choice?  I suppose an argument could be made that the Serpent was meant metaphorically, but that doesn't jibe well with the position that Genesis is meant to be read literally.  --[[User:Benp|Benp]] 17:28, 10 June 2008 (EDT)

The serpent, which is Satan, was created before the rest of the creation. And there was a was in Hevean where Satan and some of the angels rebelled, which caused them to be kicked from Hevean. Same kind of thing. They had a choice, they chose wrong. That's not God's fault. [[User:Ultimahero|Ultimahero]] 20:39, 10 June 2008 (EDT)

The serpent, which is Satan, was created before the rest of the creation. And there was a was in Hevean where Satan and some of the angels rebelled, which caused them to be kicked from Hevean. Same kind of thing. They had a choice, they chose wrong. That's not God's fault. [[User:Ultimahero|Ultimahero]] 20:39, 10 June 2008 (EDT)

:...but it does establish that evil existed prior to the choice by humans.  Moreover, we are still faced with the difficult quandary of why God created a universe in which evil was possible.  --[[User:Benp|Benp]] 20:45, 10 June 2008 (EDT)

:...but it does establish that evil existed prior to the choice by humans.  Moreover, we are still faced with the difficult quandry of why God created a universe in which evil was possible.  --[[User:Benp|Benp]] 20:45, 10 June 2008 (EDT)

Well, let's first define what evil is. God is good. So anything that goes against God's holy character is evil. Man sinned, which allowed evil to enter this world, affecting us and everything around us. But, evil did exist before that in the sense that Satan had already rebelled and chose to go against God. As far as when evil first began, I suppose it would be whenever the first choice to disobey God was made. Pressumabley this was Satan. And God createda world where evil exists because He wanted us to have free will. If people have the ability to choose, then they invariably have the ability to make wrong choices. God could have not given free will and eliminated the problem with evil, but then all He would have would be little robots who can't really choose Him. [[User:Ultimahero|Ultimahero]] 20:52, 10 June 2008 (EDT)

Well, let's first define what evil is. God is good. So anything that goes against God's holy character is evil. Man sinned, which allowed evil to enter this world, affecting us and everything around us. But, evil did exist before that in the sense that Satan had already rebelled and chose to go against God. As far as when evil first began, I suppose it would be whenever the first choice to disobey God was made. Pressumabley this was Satan. And God createda world where evil exists because He wanted us to have free will. If people have the ability to choose, then they invariably have the ability to make wrong choices. God could have not given free will and eliminated the problem with evil, but then all He would have would be little robots who can't really choose Him. [[User:Ultimahero|Ultimahero]] 20:52, 10 June 2008 (EDT)

Well, if God isn't everything, or if not everything is of God's creation, than there must exist other powers than God.

Well, if God isn't everything, or if not everything is of God's creation, than there must exist other powers than God.

Maybe God is just created by some higher powers of creators and that he is just a pice of a puzzle in their play...

Mabye God is just created by some higher powers of creators and that he is just a pice of a puzzle in their play...

Or perhaps god is more of a way to express everything which exists, and which in its divine prinsiple, both gives life and takes life, both allows happyness and wisdom, but also allows sadness primitivity.

Or perhaps god is more of a way to express everything which exists, and which in its divine prinsiple, both gives life and takes life, both allows happyness and wisdom, but also allows sadness primitivity.

Life couldn't be either "White" or "Black", but to allow every being existing in God's creation to live and learn, they must feel both the dark sides of life as well as the light sides of it, and the dark will allways come from our own mistakes and not anyone elses. And Jusus also explained it so very well by his well known statement that; "What you sow you will reap".

Life couldn't be either "White" or "Black", but to allow every being existing in God's creation to live and learn, they must feel both the dark sides of life aswell as the light sides of it, and the dark will allways come from our own mistakes and not anyone elses. And Jusus also explained it so very well by his well known statetment that; "What you sow you will reap".

Said plainly and easily, the best thing you can do for yourself is to do as much good as you possibly can do to others, that is the way of God, and that is the way that man will appear in "God's image, after his likeness".--[[User:Nabroon|Nabroon]] 21:37, 7 July 2008 (EDT)

Said plainly and easly, the best thing you can do for yourself is to do as much good as you possibly can do to others, that is the way of God, and that is the way that man will appear in "God's immage, after his likness".--[[User:Nabroon|Nabroon]] 21:37, 7 July 2008 (EDT)

How are you defining "other powers"? I would argue that evil is result of man's choice to rebel against God. So, man could fit into the "other powers" section, by that definition. But nothing exists that God didn't either directly bring about or allowed to come about. (Ex: Man is a result of God directly bringing him into existence; man's evil is a result of God allowing man to choose to sin.) But this doesn't mean that God '''is''' everything. I can paint a picture, but that doesn't make me the painting. God can create but that doesn't make Him the creation. [[User:BillyJ|BillyJ]] 22:04, 7 July 2008 (EDT)

How are you defining "other powers"? I would argue that evil is result of man's choice to rebel against God. So, man could fit into the "other powers" section, by that definition. But nothing exists that God didn't either directly bring about or allowed to come about. (Ex: Man is a result of God directly bringing him into existence; man's evil is a result of God allowing man to choose to sin.) But this doesn't mean that God '''is''' everything. I can paint a picture, but that doesn't make me the painting. God can create but that doesn't make Him the creation. [[User:BillyJ|BillyJ]] 22:04, 7 July 2008 (EDT)

Well...

Well...

I think the biggest mistake all of you on this site has made, and that counts for every Christian person which have the same view too, is that God once upon a time in the beginning of his creation chose to abandon the human race because of an error they presumably made.

I think the biggest mistake all of you on this site has made, and that counts for every christian person which have the same view too, is that God once upon a time in the beginning of his creation chose to abandon the human race because of an error they persumably made.

Although you talk about free will, if God had all the possible powers in the world to create whatever he wanted, than one would think that the first highly intelligent creature he created (namely humans), should have been been a little more wise and perfected than what was obviously the case (since they chose to go against the will of god and to be cast out from the Garden of Even, which in some way can be looked on as heaven).

Allthough you talk about free will, if God had all the possible powers in the world to create whatever he wanted, than one would think that the first highly intellegent creature he created (namely humans), should have been been a little more wise and perfected than what was obviously the case (since they choosed to go against the will of god and to be cast out from the Garden of Even, which in some way can be looked on as heaven).

Either it really sounds like God wasn't fully capable of creating only divine creations, or else, the darkness which came when  the humans choose to abandon god (which I think you mean is only for as long as humans exists on this earth) wasn't either a mistake from god, and neither from the humans.

Either it really sounds like God wasn't fully capeable of creating only divine creations, or else, the darkness which came when  the humans choose to abandon god (which I think you mean is only for as long as humans exists on this earth) wasn't either a mistake from god, and neither from the humans.

Because, if god created us with minds that are only capable to think selfishly and ruthlessly, then it isn't we that should be blamed. (I hope some of you can see the logic in that).

Because, if god created us with minds that are only capeable to think selfishly and ruthlessly, then it isn't we that should be blammed. (I hope some of you can see the logic in that).

I think that god created us in the unperfect way we were in from the beginning, so that we could experience what the effects of our mistakes would be, and so, gradually, to become more in harmony with the world, and in absolute, more in harmony with god.

I think that god created us in the unperfect way we were in from the beginning, so that we could experiance what the effects of our mistakes would be, and so, gradualy, to become more in harmony with the world, and in absolute, more in harmony with god.

I think that it is the mission of "free will", so that the humans can learn what is right and what is wrong, and the more you understand this, the closer to god you will get.

I think that it is the misson of "free will", so that the humans can learn what is right and what is wrong, and the more you understand this, the closer to god you will get.

A lot of rabble maybe, but I see the creation of everything god has made as a complete logical creation, which in you viewpoint normally is totally opposite, since you feel that all humans have been born with guilt and are obviously not a creation that god is proud of, so you hope that god can forgive you be pleading him for forgiveness.

A lot of wrabble mabye, but I see the creation of everything god has made as a complete logical creation, which in you viewpoint normally is totally oppisite, since you feel that all humans have been born with guilt and are obviously not a creation that god is proud of, so you hope that god can forgive you be pleeding him for forgivness.

Btw, that thing I said about "other powers" was just an example to show that god isn't so much a existing person or angry being as he is both a principle of all that is created and also the divine creator of all. --[[User:Nabroon|Nabroon]] 10:18, 8 July 2008 (EDT)

Btw, that thing I said about "other powers" was just an example to show that god isn't so much a existing person or angry being as he is both a prinsiple of all that is created and also the divine creator of all. --[[User:Nabroon|Nabroon]] 10:18, 8 July 2008 (EDT)

Alright. I think you’re misunderstanding what Christians (or at least what I) believe. You make it sound like the Christian perspective is that God made people, they sinned, and He abandoned them. But that’s not true. The Christian perspective is that God created people with the knowledge that they would sin. He didn’t cause it, but He knew it would happen. He used His knowledge to take it into account. So, God’s plan from the beginning and purpose in creation was to show His mercy by being merciful to man. People sin and have no possible way to escape from it, so God takes on flesh as Jesus Christ and dies on the cross for sin. God never abounded people. He provided them the way to escape.

Alright. I think you’re misunderstanding what Christians (or at least what I) believe. You make it sound like the Christian perspective is that God made people, they sinned, and He abandoned them. But that’s not true. The Christian perspective is that God created people with the knowledge that they would sin. He didn’t cause it, but He knew it would happen. He used His knowledge to take it into account. So, God’s plan from the beginning and purpose in creation was to show His mercy by being merciful to man. People sin and have no possible way to escape from it, so God takes on flesh as Jesus Christ and dies on the cross for sin. God never abounded people. He provided them the way to escape.

I agree that God is the divine creator of all. But He is an actual being with emotions like anger. May I ask you what religion, if any, you are of? [[User:BillyJ|BillyJ]] 13:23, 8 July 2008 (EDT)

I agree that God is the divine creator of all. But He is an actual being with emotions like anger. May I ask you what religion, if any, you are of? [[User:BillyJ|BillyJ]] 13:23, 8 July 2008 (EDT)

I am NOT of any religion, neither am I any kind of atheist, although I am very interested in finding the truth, or at least, as far as my mind is able to perceive.

I am NOT of any religion, neither am I any kind of atheist, allthough I am very interested in finding the truth, or at least, as far as my mind is able to perceive.

And will tell you, so that it can stick hard enough into your brain, it is NOT your or anyone else fault that god created you with a "weakness".

And will tell you, so that it can stick hard enough into your brain, it is NOT your or anyone elses fault that god created you with a "weakness".

If God in the beginning created you with an intelligence and wisdom that wasn't sufficient enough to keep you in the "track" or "path" that god wished you to stay in, than it WAS god's fault.

If God in the beginning created you with an intellegence and wisdom that wasn't sufficient enough to keep you in the "track" or "path" that god whished you to stay in, than it WAS god's fault.

Our free will is actually not as free as you would have liked it to be, because how free we are to think, and how logically we are able to perceive, is directly tied to how "evolved" or "completed" our mind is.

Our free will is actually not as free as you would have liked it to be, becouse how free we are to think, and how logically we are able to percive, is directly tied to how "evolved" or "completed" our mind is.

God could have used his ability to create a world of only brilliant, god and angel like beings, were no form of violence or hate could ever have existed.

God could have used his ablility to create a world of only brilliant, god and angel like beings, were no form of violence or hate could ever have existed.

But since that is not the case, he must have had a reason to why he didn't create our world into such a place, and it is not because God didn't have the ability or skill to do it, and it is neither because his creation "rebelled" on him, because if that was so, than it would have meant that his creations wasn't so perfect, since they didn't manage to do what god had wanted them to do.

But since that is not the case, he must have had a reason to why he didn't create our world into such a place, and it is not becouse God didn't have the ability or skill to do it, and it is neither becouse his creation "rebelled" on him, becouse if that was so, than it would have meaned that his creations wasn't so perfect, since they didn't mannage to do what god had wanted them to do.

But that is the way that the normal Christian person looks at it, only that he chooses to look away from one half of it, namely the part were god's acts could only have been a evidence of weakness...

But that is the way that the normal christian person looks at it, only that he chooses to look away from one half of it, namely the part were god's acts could only have been a evidence of weakness...

In reality, god created absolutely everything in the most perfect way that you could have ever imagined.

In reallity, god created absollutly everything in the most perfect way that you could have ever imagined.

And as I partly said earlier, the appearance of darkness on this planet, in the form of violence, hate, murder and everything of damaging form, is not a evidence of anyone's rebellion against god or his wishes, but is in fact a part of god's plan.

And as I partly said earlier, the apperance of darkness on this planet, in the form of violence, hate, murder and everything of damaging form, is not a evidence of anyone's rebellion against god or his whishes, but is in fact a part of god's plan.

And in trying to make you understand this, I am gonna give you an example which wasn't really made by me:

And in trying to make you understand this, I am gonna give you an example which wasn't really made by me:

Likewise, the picture would be just as meaningless if it was only painted black, as nothing could really be seen in it.

Likewise, the picture would be just as meaningless if it was only painted black, as nothing could really be seen in it.

However, if you suddenly painted it full with all kinds of colors, and used just all kinds of variations, the image could suddenly become quite interesting to look at, since the were plenty of variations to the two main colors: Black and White.

However, if you suddenly painted it full with all kinds of collors, and used just all kinds of variations, the image could suddenly become quite interesting to look at, since the were plenty of variations to the two main collors: Black and White.

That is also in a way how life exists, and the only way it could exist, since if you got to a point in life were it was almost so dark and full of pain and missery that it was allmost impossible to see anything else, life would almost have ceased there and no experience could have been made because there was no variations to the light that was let down there.

That is also in a way how life exists, and the only way it could exist, since if you got to a point in life were it was allmost so dark and full of pain and missery that it was allmost impossible to see anything else, life would allmost have ceased there and no experiance could have been made becouse there was no variations to the light that was let down there.

The same is with the fact that if you got to a place were you only experienced the "heavenly" passion all the time and only could see and feel the pure light, there would be nothing to make a contrast to it, and therefore where there is no contrasts there is not sensing, and where there is no sensing there is no life.

The same is with the fact that if you got to a place were you only experianced the "heavenly" passion all the time and only could see and feel the pure light, there would be nothing to make a contrast to it, and therefore where there is no contrasts there is not sensing, and where there is no sensing there is no life.

And the final key to life is this; that if life is to exist, and if the beings which life consists of is to be allowed to live and experience, then life must be an ever changing cycle between darkness and light, and the degree of how close you are to god is the direct deciding factor to how much light your life consists of, just as how far away you are from god, decides how dark you life and fate will be.

And the final key to life is this; that if life is to exist, and if the beings which life consists of is to be allowed to live and experience, then life must be an ever changing cycle between darkness and light, and the degree of how close you are to god is the direct deciding factor to how much light your life consists of, just as how far away you are from god, decides how dark you life and fate will be.

It is an endless cycle, and to experience, there must always be a change in the object of which is experienced, and from forever past to forever in the future, you will always experience both sides of god's creation and will always have the chance to feel the light which is closest to him.

It is an endless cycle, and to experience, there must allways be a change in the object of which is experienced, and from forever past to forever in the future, you will allways experience both sides of god's creation and will allways have the chance to feel the light which is closest to him.

--[[User:Nabroon|Nabroon]] 09:36, 9 July 2008 (EDT)

--[[User:Nabroon|Nabroon]] 09:36, 9 July 2008 (EDT)