Debate:What exactly is Conservapedia?
14,962 bytes added
21:44, 25 September 2011
Reverted edits by [[Special:Contributions/SammanS|SammanS]] ([[User talk:SammanS|talk]]) to last revision by [[User:Jpatt|Jpatt]]
What exactly is conservapedia?
==Original discussion from UserTalk:Aschlafly==
I bring this up as a topic of discussion, not a criticism. I wonder if ASchlafly needs to consider reconciling the goals of this site in regards to its format. A wiki is an inherently democratic format...anyone can contribute, and errors are theoretically diluted as more and more people become involved. Over time, experts' edits will outnumber those of vandals and non-experts. The stated goals here, based on what is explicitly written and what has taken place in edits, appears to be less democratic, with an agenda being set from the top down. ASchlafly insists on expert opinion, but when it disagrees with his worldview, he edits articles which fall out of his own expertise. I do not mean in any way to impugn his morals or objectives, but perhaps a wiki is not the best format for him to accomplish his needs. If he wants an online extension of his textbooks, wiki is definitely a poor format to use. IMHO.
Id be interested in comments/responses, and will also post this on my discussion page.
Palmd001|Palmd001]] 11:04, 19 March 2007 (EDT)
: A wiki need not be a direct democracy, just as most countries are not. It is essential to avoid mob rule. Wikipedia fails in this essential regard. Consevapedia, in contrast, is based on [[rules]], just as the United States is. The democratic forces are properly restrained by the good rules. Likewise here. Thanks. Over time, rule-based democracies (i.e., constitutional republics) are more successful than direct democracies.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 11:27, 19 March 2007 (EDT)
:: Your idea of "mob rule" seems to be "statements of facts that disagree with your opinions," see e.g. [[Theory of evolution]]. Will you allow commentary on articles that are currently quite poor? That seems a reasonable "goal."--[[User:AmesG|AmesG]] 11:29, 19 March 2007 (EDT)
:Palmd001, I agree with your basic point, and your observation seems to be quite correct. (However, from a technical point of view, a wiki system is very good for publishing a project like this. It has tons of technical advantages.)
:In a way, Aschlafly wants to have the best of all worlds. He wants the popularity/fame that comes from having a frequent editor/visitor base, he wants activity, he wants people contributing as much as possible in a wide variety of topics, but he also wants everybody to stick to his personal worldview. And that last part simply doesn't work when you have open registrations. But with a by-application or by-invitation system, growth and popularity become major issues. --[[User:Sid 3050|Sid 3050]] 11:42, 19 March 2007 (EDT)
Aschlafly, not to be argumentative, but Wikipedia [
index.php?title=WP:NOT#Wikipedia_is_not_a_democracy doesn't at all intend to be a pure democracy]. Also, perhaps I'm misunderstanding, but are you suggesting that Wikipedia has ''fewer'' rules than Conservapedia? If anything, I'd describe Wikipedia as a large bureaucracy compared to Conservapedia's "[[Conservapedia:Commandments|there is only one rule page]]". --[[User:Interiot|Interiot]] 11:44, 19 March 2007 (EDT)
::I would add that the simplification of the commandments has added to confusion over what is (subtle) vandalism, what is a source, what is opinion, what is appropriate or inappropriate content. The inconsistent enforcement of these commandments has made for an uncomfortable work environment. For instance, here is the February 17 version of the [[John McCain]] page [http:
conservapedia.com/index.php?title=John_McCain&oldid=14293]... every edit to that point was made by Aschlafly and it clearly violates many of the commandments. Nothing is sourced, a good deal is opinion and not verifiable. When I cleaned it up by taking out the unsourced opinion, but leaving the unsourced fact, I was accused of removing factual information.
::Further, I would direct you to the revert war going over on [[Physics]]: [http://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Physics&action=history]. The subject of the reverts is whether or not to call the universe "God's Universe" or not. The commandment "give full credit to Christianity" is unclear and the user in favor of "God's universe" seemed to receive confirmation from Aschlafly that this would be appropriate. So ''that'' is the primary reason given for "God's" inclusion with the article. That is not indicative of constitutional republic or a rules based democracy, it is indicative of monarchy. [[User:Myk
Myk]] 12:17, 19 March 2007 (EDT)
''''I was trying to find the reverts - or are they gone permanently since someone decided that it was inappropriate/wrong/whatever?''''[[User:kchittur
kchittur]] 2:50, 19 March 2007 (CDT)
::Check the history, maybe I linked it incorrectly. The gist of the revert war is whether or not physics should be described as "the study of nature, and is the science of studying the laws of the universe" or "the study of nature, and is the science of studying the laws of God's universe." ''(OK, I'll try and navigate the reverts)''
This kind of discussion is exactly what I'm hoping for. Thanks especially to Mr. Schlafly for contributing. If, as you say, Wikipedia is more like a constitutional/representative democracy, then, to carry the analogy further, there should be a limited set of elected or appointed contributors who are trained to follow the commandments and who are true experts in their fields. The "people" would be the subscribers to the site. This still would not be a true Wiki. I am not arguing against your goals--that is your business. I am simply saying that the chosen format does not seem consistent with your goals. For instance, this discussion...
Palmd001]] 11:55, 19 March 2007 (EDT)
::: Folks, true Wiki's have simple, clear rules. Otherwise it is a mobocracy. Wikipedia has complex, senseless, and arbitrarily enforced rules. Check out [[Bias in Wikipedia]] to see the result. We're like the constitutional republic of the United States. Wikipedia is like the French Revolution.--[[User:Aschlafly
Aschlafly]] 12:32, 19 March 2007 (EDT)
::::May I butt in? I'm new here, but "old" at Wikipedia.
::::I can agree with the "complex" part, but the rules are not entirely senseless. One rule I like is [[Wikipedia:Attribution]], which requires contributors to provide verifiable references for 'facts' which aren't common knowledge or are matters of dispute.
:::::: I have proposed we go one further step toward quality with our attributions. Discussion at [[Conservapedia_Discussions#References]]. [[User:Terryeo|Terryeo]] 15:26, 19 March 2007 (EDT)
::::Enforcement of rules is another matter. I'm "on probation" because of supposedly "tendentious" edits on some issues which are hotly debated by liberals and conservatives, but I haven't appealed that decision. I'd rather just become more congenial. --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] 12:37, 19 March 2007 (EDT)
::::: Heh ! I knew that small group of editors had someone in mind when they initiated the "tendentious editing" policy. Good luck [[User:Terryeo|Terryeo]] 15:26, 19 March 2007 (EDT)
Thanks for creating this as a separate article...I think that will be useful.
In response to Mr. Schlafly, I would say that having more, complex rules, as you say Wikipedia does, should help, rather than hurt, as that is what this site seems to need. The Commandments are vague and confusing, leading to arbitrariness.
Another interesting point inherent in the wiki process is this--if someone is "patrolling an agenda", their influence will eventually be diluted out. As thousands of users begin to contribute, "mainstream" voices will predominate, and only an enormous army of sysops/admis will be able to maintain a particular character. If the site attracts mainly conservatives, then there will likely be a bit of a conservative bias, but not more than that.
[[User:Palmd001|Palmd001]] 13:40, 19 March 2007 (EDT)
Stop Posting Propaganda
=Who Exactly is Conservapedia?==
I am fascinated by the little disclaimer at the top of the debate page. Basically it says that this is a debate page, and ideas expressed here are not necessarily those of Conservapedia. Hmmm. My question is... then whose ideas are they?!?!?! The people allowed to edit here are allowed to edit Conservapedia! The people typing on this debate page are the same folks who wrote the last article you read. "Conservapedia" is the title of a database, the figure head, if you will. What "Conservapedia" really is, is the editors. (Sorry for using the word "is" twice in a row. Hope that wasn't confusing.) If Conservapedians all became liberal right now, and wrote articles with liberal biases, this would still be Conservapedia. (Though very ironic, indeed.) Conservapedia is the ''title'' of this database - not the slogan. So who is Conservapedia? Conservapedia are the editors, not the definition of pro-life, not the ideology of conservatives. The people that are sitting in front of their computer screen, typing. And ''their'' ideology. Do not confuse the title "Conservapedia" as the unspoken rule guiding editors. Conservapedia is you, the editor. --[[User:Humph|Humph
16:46, 15 May 2009 (EDT)Humph
I'm putting in a header to both inform and to make the page a bit easier to navigate. And once more invite whoever wants to to come to freenode.net via Chatzilla or mIRC or whatever and be able to talk in real-time. [[User:Cracker|Cracker]]<sup>[[User_Talk:Cracker|talk]]</sup>
==Is Conservapedia a Christian Website==
There seems to be a strong predisposition towards Christianity and Biblical literalism. References to works that contradict a literal interpretation of the Bible seem to be deleted on a regular basis. Is this a Christian website? [[User:Myk|Myk]] 18:19, 19 March 2007 (EDT)
An excellent question to which I would like a yes or no answer, but I probably won't get one.
[[User:Palmd001|Palmd001]] 18:29, 19 March 2007 (EDT)
My magic 8-ball says "Yes". --[[User:Scrap|Scrap]] 00:55, 20 March 2007 (EDT)
I am new to the site. This is a valid question. But I would phrase it as Is Conservapedia specifically an anti-Catholic Website? I am an Eastern Orthodox Christian, but I have corrected NUMEROUS errors. It could be that these are spam...or it could be the postings of the original Conservapedia staff. I dont know. I want to be involved if the idea is to correct bias. However, I do not want to be involved if the idea of the site is to promote anti-Catholicism or has the goal to convert individuals to a particular relgious belief.
If you could give examples, and if they were reverted to the offensive text after you fixed them, that would be great. Thanks.
[[User:Palmd001|Palmd001]] 14:20, 20 March 2007 (EDT)
:::We have been told that the Bible is considered a reliable source on Conservapedia... that is for more than issues directly related to it. Are the holy books of other religions reliable sources as well? [[User:Myk|Myk]] 16:02, 21 March 2007 (EDT)
:::: Well, what does "reliable" mean? If a book has been in existence for a number of years, is read, studied and used as a base for thinking and action by thousands or millions of people, surely it has to be considered a valid source of information, huh ? When in Rome, do as the Romans do. When it comes to "reliable", the public's opinion of "reliable" is what is reliable (I would think) [[User:Terryeo|Terryeo]] 04:18, 22 March 2007 (EDT)
:Actually, "reliable" should not be based on consensus. If we used consensus in science, versus experimentation, I would never get on an airplane.[[User:Palmd001|Palmd001]] 09:10, 22 March 2007 (EDT)
I for one am a Christian who would seriously disagree with most of the ''ahem'' content on this website. [[User:Wikinterpreter|Wikinterpreter]]
Hello, my first time on here. It looks to me that this website should be called "Judeo-Christianmythology-apedia." I mean, come on, does one have to be Christian to be conservative? Can't someone be outside of the Abrahamic faiths and be conservative? [[User:Deejayenrie]] 14:11, 19 June 2007 (EDT)
It is a site dedicated to American Evangelical Republican's and is anti-English as Wikipedia is anti-American.
== Is Conservapedia neutral or onesided==
This is another question I've had. Does this site exist to show all the facts and give the conservative POV or does it exist to give both POVs or does it exist to show just facts that support a conservative agenda ? I think these responses to the dinosaur / evolution debate might be pertinent.
<code>Please stop fighting about this stuff. It is Conservapedia. We're not trying to give both sides evenly. Conservative was right in protecting the article. [[User:Conservapedia Webmaster|Conservapedia Webmaster]] 14:46, 20 March 2007 (EDT)</code>
This appears to be clarified here:
<code>To the broader issue, I have to defer to our Webmaster on this. I might add that "Conservative" has put a great deal of effort into the "dinosaur" entry and it ranks #6 on our most-viewed statistics. It ranks high because it is not like Wikipedia's entry. There is no point to trying to import Wikipedia-type material into the entry. People can go to Wikipedia for that. That said, Conservapedia is responsive to factual, evidentiary suggestions made on the talk page. We are neutral to facts. [[User:Aschlafly]]</code>
Both are from here: [http://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=User_talk:Aschlafly&curid=2516&diff=52230&oldid=52221#request_your_help] [[User:Myk|Myk]] 16:39, 20 March 2007 (EDT)
:I'd like to see this thread continued at [[Conservapedia:Is Conservapedia neutral or onesided?]] --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] 13:13, 11 April 2007 (EDT)
This is off topic, but I have to say this somewhere and it might as well be right here:
Famously, Conservapedia refuses to define sexual intercourse so that children may be "protected" from the "vulgar" details of the act. All I can say is, parents: don't be surprised when your kid comes home pregnant because you were too foolish to inform them of EVERY SINGLE important detail surrounding the sex act (i.e., protection). Believe it or not, it is highly likely that your children will have sex in their teens (indeed, despite their good Christian upbringings), and it is extremely dangerous to withhold such crucial information from them. Remember, many so-called "conservative" parents who are so-called "pro-life" have a drastic change of heart regarding the abortion issue when their kids come home knocked-up. It is not wise to keep your kids in the dark - you will likely regret it.
I can say without the slightest hint of a doubt, that Conservapedia is made of Fail, Lies and Satan. Lies must be protected from change, Truth protects itself. The very fact that CP locks articles is proof that this encyclopedia-mimicking Propaganda-collection is filled to burst with Lies, Misinformation, and hate. I have no doubt at all that Satan himself is the creator and webmaster of this abomination.
, nsAm_Govt_101RO, nsAm_Govt_101RW, nsAm_Govt_101_ta, nsJudgesRO, nsJudgesRW, nsJudges_talkRO, nsJudges_talkRW, nsTeam2RO, nsTeam2RW, nsTeam2_talkRO, nsTeam2_talkRW,
Retrieved from "