96
edits
Changes
Jump to navigation
Jump to search
Line 138:
Line 138: + + + +
Talk:Second Law of Thermodynamics (view source)
Revision as of 00:37, June 10, 2012
, 00:37, June 10, 2012→Second Law and Evolution
::::::::::The logs are more complex; in the act of burning them, matter goes from an ordered state to a more disordered one, and energy is given off. Are you going to elaborate on how this relates to evolution as Randall asked? [[User:CWest|CWest]] 08:28, 9 June 2012 (EDT)
::::::::::The logs are more complex; in the act of burning them, matter goes from an ordered state to a more disordered one, and energy is given off. Are you going to elaborate on how this relates to evolution as Randall asked? [[User:CWest|CWest]] 08:28, 9 June 2012 (EDT)
:::::::::::That is correct. Now explain why the 2nd Law only applies to a closed system. Those are your words, Randall7, and I expect you to answer it...not CWest. [[User:Karajou|Karajou]] 12:41, 9 June 2012 (EDT)
:::::::::::That is correct. Now explain why the 2nd Law only applies to a closed system. Those are your words, Randall7, and I expect you to answer it...not CWest. [[User:Karajou|Karajou]] 12:41, 9 June 2012 (EDT)
::::::::::::The two statements that make up the foundation of the Second Law of Thermodynamics - the Kelvin-Planck statement and the Clausius statement - both describe systems that exchange heat and/or work with their surroundings, but not mass. But as I said before, my concern is less about the closed system argument and more about the abuse of the concept of "order" to claim that the Second Law disproves evolution. --[[User:Randall7|Randall7]] 20:37, 9 June 2012 (EDT)
:Andy, how do you explain the growth of a crystal (an ordered arrangement of ions) from a solution (a disordered arrangement), if "the Second Law does ban disorder becoming more orderly", as you say? --[[User:FrederickT3|FrederickT3]] 03:39, 9 June 2012 (EDT)
:Andy, how do you explain the growth of a crystal (an ordered arrangement of ions) from a solution (a disordered arrangement), if "the Second Law does ban disorder becoming more orderly", as you say? --[[User:FrederickT3|FrederickT3]] 03:39, 9 June 2012 (EDT)
::Order is not really increasing when a crystal grows in a solution, or when water changes its phase and becomes ice. If the crystal or ice is melted again, then one back to where it started. This is no increase in order.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 19:53, 9 June 2012 (EDT)
::Order is not really increasing when a crystal grows in a solution, or when water changes its phase and becomes ice. If the crystal or ice is melted again, then one back to where it started. This is no increase in order.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 19:53, 9 June 2012 (EDT)
:::Mr. Schlafly, it is clear that your concept of order differs from the thermodynamic concept of order. When water freezes, its entropy decreases and when ice melts, its entropy increases, but during these processes the entropy of the water's surroundings also increase/decrease (such that total net change in entropy is never negative). I would like to hear an explanation of how changes in "order" during evolution relate to the actual Second Law of Thermodynamics. --[[User:Randall7|Randall7]] 20:37, 9 June 2012 (EDT)