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The entry on interventionism said that Liberal currently (post-911, although to their credit they support Afghanistan, and in the beginning Iraq as well)) oppose nation building (we a can agree on this) but that this position is traditionally neither liberal nor conservative, since for example G.W. Bushopposed nation building in the past while Gore favored it (and I guess we can agree on this as well). Opposition to nation building is not a core liberal belief, nor is it it a conservative belief. And the Gore-Bush debate illustrates that nicely. And that is exactly what the old version said. And thats why it should be restored. [[User:Order]] 11 April, 12:35 (AEST)
The entry on interventionism said that Liberal currently (post-911, although to their credit they support Afghanistan, and in the beginning Iraq as well)) oppose nation building (we a can agree on this) but that this position is traditionally neither liberal nor conservative, since for example G.W. Bushopposed nation building in the past while Gore favored it (and I guess we can agree on this as well). Opposition to nation building is not a core liberal belief, nor is it it a conservative belief. And the Gore-Bush debate illustrates that nicely. And that is exactly what the old version said. And thats why it should be restored. [[User:Order]] 11 April, 12:35 (AEST)
:To argue a moot point: First off, so-called "nation building" is a media phrase that was invented circa 2000 to thumbnail a bunch of more detailed foreign policy objectives for what the media considers an idiot electorate; I have been involved in this stuff my whole life, have never heard the phrase "nation building" prior to that time, and can't say any candidate or person should be held to account on anything because journalists are too (damn) lazy to do their job properly and inform the public, so instead invent just another abusive journalistic phrase. Secondly, what Bush said in a debate has nothing to do with liberal views on anything. Third, you misquote Bush anyway, he does not "oppose nation building"; he said the Haiti operation wasn't worth it. You clearly got caught with your hand in the cookie jar on this one...Bush does not blanketly oppose nation building; he specifically criticizes one instance of "nation building". Trying to make something out of this not only totally fails to make your point, it adds to the criticism Liberals have no valid or serious views on any of these matters, and will wrench totally contorted meanings out of context in a paltry effort to sanitize miserable failings laid bare and exposed for the world to see. Why pursue totally fruitless efforts like this? All it does is damage to your own efforts. To have credibilty whatsoever, the Gore sanction stuff is what you need to address, cause it is key to [[Iraq War]], [[WMD]], and a bunch of other more relevent articles. [[User:RobS|RobS]] 23:02, 10 April 2007 (EDT)
:To argue a moot point: First off, so-called "nation building" is a media phrase that was invented circa 2000 to thumbnail a bunch of more detailed foreign policy objectives for what the media considers an idiot electorate; I have been involved in this stuff my whole life, have never heard the phrase "nation building" prior to that time, and can't say any candidate or person should be held to account on anything because journalists are too (damn) lazy to do their job properly and inform the public, so instead invent just another abusive journalistic phrase. Secondly, what Bush said in a debate has nothing to do with liberal views on anything. Third, you misquote Bush anyway, he does not "oppose nation building"; he said the Haiti operation wasn't worth it. You clearly got caught with your hand in the cookie jar on this one...Bush does not blanketly oppose nation building; he specifically criticizes one instance of "nation building". Trying to make something out of this not only totally fails to make your point, it adds to the criticism Liberals have no valid or serious views on any of these matters, and will wrench totally contorted meanings out of context in a paltry effort to sanitize miserable failings laid bare and exposed for the world to see. Why pursue totally fruitless efforts like this? All it does is damage to your own efforts. To have credibilty whatsoever, the Gore sanction stuff is what you need to address, cause it is key to [[Iraq War]], [[WMD]], and a bunch of other more relevent articles. [[User:RobS|RobS]] 23:02, 10 April 2007 (EDT)
*What Bush said has alot to do with how you portrait Liberals. When someone says that opposition to nation building is a belief that distinguishes Liberals from Conservatives, you can rightfully point to Bush, and say that it is not distinctively Liberal.
*Furthermore, Bush answered '''Absolutely not''' to the question if the US military should make nation building one of its core missions. That suggest firm opposition. That the word was invented in the late 90s doesn't matter. Call it interventionism, if you like it better.
*Your point about Haiti doesn't prove that I have my hands in the cookie jar, sorry, (you probably assume that I want to blame Bush for his 2000 stance on nation building). However, it proves that you are able to see that people can have good reasons to oppose an official policy by the sitting president, and not because they oppose freedom, but because they think that the execution of the policy is poor, and that it doesn't achieve the purpose. As a reminder, lets repeat what I said a few weeks ago about why people oppose an official policy that claims to further human rights.
:# Firstly, you may or may not believe the claim that the administration does it for human rights, you may believe that the administration has ulterior motives
:# Secondly, even if you do believe a policy want to further human rights, you might believe that a given policy fails to do so.
:# Furthermore, you might think that furthering human right abroad is none of the US military's business.
:# And finally, you might be opposed to human rights.
Bush falls clearly in category 2, with his criticism. And most Liberal critics today of Bush as well. The article however suggest that the Liberals critics belong to category 4. And that's incorrect. Just as much as it would be incorrect to say that Bush opposed democracy in Haiti. Now, that you are able to see these differences when it concerns Bush, you might be evenly capable to see these differences when it concerns Liberals.
[[User:RobS|RobS]], we try to write an encyclopedic article about 'Liberals'. However, what you try to do is settle the Gore-Bush dispute. I said it before, your anger at Liberals on issues from recent history doesn't make a good article. If you think that I am arguing in favor of Gore, you are mistaken. I argue to see interventionist positions as what they are, neither liberal nor conservative. And the Gore-Bush debate proves it. [[User:Order|Order]] 11 April, 13:55 (AEST)
==Liberal vs libertarian==
==Liberal vs libertarian==