Talk:Famous American artists

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Joachin; Rudolf Nureyev was a dancer, not Rudolph Valentino. And Pet. Clarke is a Brit. And when the link to Stephen Schwartz is activated we get the writer. AlanE 22:17, 19 November 2008 (EST)

OK, working on it. Thank you! --User:Joaquín Martínez, talk 06:42, 20 November 2008 (EST)

Standards for Inclusion?

While I'm thankful for your efforts to class this place up with your articles on art and artists, I'm rather perplexed as to how you're choosing the folks you feature here. While "famous" and "artist" are inherently subjective terms, by almost any standard many of your choices are--frankly--bizarre. Take the Musicians category, for example--Steve Lawrence and Ethelbert Nevin? I can't imagine any discussion in which they'd be more famous or more artistic or more influential than a plethora of people not on the list (from Louis Armstrong to Frank Zappa). Or the Writers category--you list Bayard Taylor and Stephen King and Chuck Palahniuk, but leave off Steinbeck and Melville and Hawthorne and Emerson and Dickinson and Frost and any number of others? The other categories have similar issues to some degree or other. I think you need to focus your efforts, decide on a standard of some sort, and ask for help/opinions. I am reluctant to make wholesale changes here, as this is largely your baby, but I am more than happy to assist. --RossC 22:38, 21 November 2008 (EST)

May be you could help also with some red links. --User:Joaquín Martínez, talk 07:25, 22 November 2008 (EST)
With all due respect, mate, if Steve Lawrence doesn't disappear from the list within a day, I am going to do it myself, which will ruin the looks of that lovely line of "Joaquín Martínez (Talk | contribs)etc" on the history page and slow down by one your rush towards the 25,000contribs total (which I sometimes think you will reach by Christmas. :)) I really do wish you hadn't included him because I have not been able to stop humming "Go away, Little Girl" since I saw him there three days ago and the family is starting to talk about leaving home! So please, Joaquín....! AlanE 14:29, 23 November 2008 (EST)
This time the name of the list is "musicians" not "composers" like in "Famous Artists". And as far I as know he is a famous one; nicht wahr? --User:Joaquín Martínez, talk 17:50, 23 November 2008 (EST)
Bis heute nur 20,554, affenschande! --User:Joaquín Martínez, talk 17:59, 23 November 2008 (EST)

Yes, he was...for a little while. He was one of the thousands of artists who came and went. He hasn't had a particularly high profile in recent decades. But he is not immortal like so many are that are not included in the list. Where are the singers like Ella Fitzgerald, Sinatra, Tony Bennett, Barbra Streisand, the classical singers like Jesse Norman, Robert Merrill, Marion Anderson, the band leaders, the conductors, the greats of jazz (now there is America for you, Joaquín - jazz! And remember; "the real American folksong is a said (I think) Ira Gershwin.)? Where's Charlie Parker? If the criterion is "fame" - especially lasting fame - then Steve Lawrence doesn't really qualify. (I have been desperately singing Nat King Cole songs this morning to rid my mind of Go away Little there is an immortal! Replace Steve with Nat King Cole. It may have been the late great Isaac Hayes who said: "Nat was cooool before it was cooool to be cooool."

And I've just realised you left out possibly the most influential and famous all-round musician of the twentieth none. Leonard Bernstein. He was a conductor, pianist, classical composer, Broadway composer, song writer, educator, writer and so on. He would have to go on the top of any list.
As for contribution tallies - check out Opera. It took me two whole edits. Cheers AlanE 19:39, 23 November 2008 (EST)
Another morning...thanks for putting in those greats, but Ira Gershwin should not be there: he was his brother's lyricist and is not considered a famous musician. (He wrote the words to a song called The Great American Folksong (is a rag). That's why I mentioned him...which reminds me: Scott Joplin should be there.) I enjoyed your choice of the divine Joséphine. The French will be happy. (But I still hate Steve Lawrence being there when there are literally thousands of better candidates!)
I'll get rid of some red links for the musicians later but I am finishing other things this morning. AlanE 13:27, 24 November 2008 (EST)

JM--Let me ask my question in a different way, so I can be of help without messing up the article...What is your intention for this article, your goal: A) a comprehensive list of all famous American artists [whether they be really really famous or just a tiny bit famous], B) a list of the most famous American artists, or C) a list of the most influential American artists?--RossC 13:58, 24 November 2008 (EST)

Good question. AlanE 14:22, 24 November 2008 (EST)
Answer to Ross: In art it is very difficult to have a consensus; The article is open to be edited; the only criteria is to add famous artists with quality. Alan, who is a proved authority in music do not like Steve Lawrence, but according to his article in his time he was honored as a musician and also appears in some lists of famous artist. Do you have some resources or links to offer? Go ahead. --User:Joaquín Martínez, talk 17:39, 24 November 2008 (EST)
I think Alan's point re Steve Lawrence is that--yes--SL is/was fairly famous, but there are hundreds of American artists who are as (or more) famous than he, and that Lawrence was not the least bit influential, musically speaking.--RossC 19:26, 24 November 2008 (EST)

Thanks Ross. we had an edit said it more succinctly than I.

What I wrote was: Actually, Joaquín, I do like Steve Lawrence...or did. It's just that I hadn't heard of him for 30-odd years and hadn't given him a thought for that long. That's the point. He disappeared off the radar. I was more likely to have remembered his wife, Edyie Gorme, who was a much underrated singer. If we are going to include pop artists of the sixties we should stick to the ones who stick to me that would be Roy Orbison, who was truly unique; and people who had a string of really big hits like Gene Pitney. There are just so many really great American singers of all have not mentioned Country and Western yet...and oh! - where's Elvis. How can he miss out on a place in the team if we are looking for fame and influence. Anyway, I'll shut up and let others have a go for a while. (Why is Ira still there, by the way? :) ) AlanE 19:54, 24 November 2008 (EST)
Done. --User:Joaquín Martínez, talk 20:24, 24 November 2008 (EST)
This article as CP is young, it started 18 November 2008, consequently as CP, it can not pretend to be comprehensive in nothing. --User:Joaquín Martínez, talk 17:49, 24 November 2008 (EST)

Two quick comments - one, shouldn't Robert Mapplethorpe be on the photog. list; and two, shouldn't the lists be alphabetized? Human 18:14, 24 November 2008 (EST)

The list for Photographers and Dancers have a chronological order. --User:Joaquín Martínez, talk 18:18, 24 November 2008 (EST)