Talk:Virgin birth
It would have been nice if they could have looked at my properly-sourced edit, but it was removed immediately, and I was blocked by you, apparently for ideological reasons. What happened to being open to all points of view? --Teamonger 22:38, 18 February 2010 (EST)
- It may have been a "properly-sourced" edit, as you claim, but is it the truth? What I saw was just a repeat of "did God really do that?", a philosophy taken up by the God-hating crowd since Eden. We don't have to be open to points of view which pushes that sort of thinking. Karajou 23:42, 18 February 2010 (EST)
- I don't know whether it's the truth or not, only the apostle Paul knew for sure what he meant by that passage. But it seems truth must be set in stone for you. Thus when the Conservpedia guidelines claim, "Unlike Wikipedia, we do not block for ideological reasons", that appears to be just a joke. --Teamonger 00:21, 19 February 2010 (EST)
- If the truth is set in stone, then what's the problem? Karajou 00:24, 19 February 2010 (EST)
- I don't know whether it's the truth or not, only the apostle Paul knew for sure what he meant by that passage. But it seems truth must be set in stone for you. Thus when the Conservpedia guidelines claim, "Unlike Wikipedia, we do not block for ideological reasons", that appears to be just a joke. --Teamonger 00:21, 19 February 2010 (EST)
Read the entire chapter, which is below for your convenience, and tell me what Paul is talking about. Karajou 00:37, 19 February 2010 (EST)
1 Timothy 1 (NKJV)
1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ, by the commandment of God our Savior and the Lord Jesus Christ, our hope,
2 To Timothy, a true son in the faith: Grace, mercy, and peace from God our Father and Jesus Christ our Lord.
3 As I urged you when I went into Macedonia—remain in Ephesus that you may charge some that they teach no other doctrine,
4 nor give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which cause disputes rather than godly edification which is in faith.
5 Now the purpose of the commandment is love from a pure heart, from a good conscience, and from sincere faith,
6 from which some, having strayed, have turned aside to idle talk,
7 desiring to be teachers of the law, understanding neither what they say nor the things which they affirm.
8 But we know that the law is good if one uses it lawfully,
9 knowing this: that the law is not made for a righteous person, but for the lawless and insubordinate, for the ungodly and for sinners, for the unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
10 for fornicators, for sodomites, for kidnappers, for liars, for perjurers, and if there is any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine,
11 according to the glorious gospel of the blessed God which was committed to my trust. Glory to God for His Grace
12 And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord who has enabled me, because He counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry,
13 although I was formerly a blasphemer, a persecutor, and an insolent man; but I obtained mercy because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.
14 And the grace of our Lord was exceedingly abundant, with faith and love which are in Christ Jesus.
15 This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief.
16 However, for this reason I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might show all longsuffering, as a pattern to those who are going to believe on Him for everlasting life.
17 Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, to God who alone is wise, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen.
18 This charge I commit to you, son Timothy, according to the prophecies previously made concerning you, that by them you may wage the good warfare,
19 having faith and a good conscience, which some having rejected, concerning the faith have suffered shipwreck,
20 of whom are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I delivered to Satan that they may learn not to blaspheme.
Results
Having read Teamonger's edit to the article and the source [1] for it, I've come to the conclusion that author J. Edward Barrett deliberately twisted what was written in plain English from the above chapter; a single verse (1 Tim 1:4) was taken out of context to make the reader think that the "fable" Paul was talking about included the Virgin Birth. What Paul is actually talking about - as confirmed by reading the whole chapter in context - was to avoid the beliefs and fables that are contrary to the Gospel of Christ. Is the Virgin Birth contrary to the Gospel of Christ? Certainly not. What Teamonger did was to parrot Barrett's little thesis as if is was fact, then make a little rant when his edit was reverted. Karajou 23:48, 19 February 2010 (EST
