User talk:James2

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Hello everyone! --James2 (talk) 13:42, 5 October 2019 (EDT)

Useful links

Welcome!

Hello, James2, and welcome to Conservapedia!

We're glad you are here to edit. We ask that you read our Editor's Guide before you edit.

At the right are some useful links for you. You can include these links on your user page by putting "{{Useful links}}" on the page. Any questions--ask!

Thanks for reading, James2!


If you have any questions, feel free to ask! --1990'sguy (talk) 14:49, 6 October 2019 (EDT)
@1990'sguy and others: What are the values that conservatives and liberals can agree on? --James2 (talk) 15:48, 14 October 2019 (EDT)
or: What flaws have they in common? (I don't mean the issue of RINOS/DINOS!) --James2 (talk) 16:09, 14 October 2019 (EDT)
Are there any values in this list (under "Goals and principles") that liberals also support? If so, that's the answer. --1990'sguy (talk) 19:04, 14 October 2019 (EDT)
The list is too lengthy and isn't credible for liberals. They can quite easily point to the flaws:
For instance: "Respect for our military?" They can say (and I say it too!) that it would have to begin at the top. And that's not the case now:
US, Russia veto UN Security Council statement on Turkey's op in Syria, White House says Turkey's Erdogan to visit November 13, US forces say Turkey was deliberately 'bracketing' American troops with artillery fire in Syria
And some of the items aren't even values. For instance: The "death penalty" isn't a value but a policy to counter serious crimes. Switzerland has no death penalty and a much lower serious crime rate than the U.S. I think that everyone would appreciate that situation. --James2 (talk) 16:02, 15 October 2019 (EDT)
The death penalty as a punishment for murder is a value -- see Genesis 9:5-6 (part of the covenant with Noah, which still applies today). CH doesn't have the run-down, crime-infested (and liberal/Democrat-run) inner cities that the U.S. has. Also, conservatives respect the military enough that we oppose sending our soldiers to die in worthless, petty, never-ending wars that don't have clear objectives. --1990'sguy (talk) 16:16, 15 October 2019 (EDT)
If you read it literally then you must acknowledge that Gen. 9:5-6 does apply to all deliberate killings including capital punishment itself, i.e. it creates a vicious cycle. (The mischna pointed that out in Pirke Avos.) And even if one would argue that that the authors didn't intend it: You know that there are cases where the verdicts were wrong, were innocents would have been killed by wrong verdicts. Wouldn't have been the blood of the innocent on the incompetent jurors who falsely convicted him or the lazy lawyer who didn't do his work?
I think one must pay attention to the context. In Gen. 9:4 "But flesh with the life thereof, which is the blood thereof, shall ye not eat." the dignity of the soul of the animal is the prior commandment. Man must honor the soul of the animals and even more so the soul and life of humans. Gen. 9:5-6 means that murder is forbidden. It is against the concept of a caste system where a higher one can murder the lower one with impunity. All must face severe consequences on their lives, the rich cannot buy themselves out with blood-money. Genesis 9:5-6 was the interpretation of that idea at that time. There weren't jails where the murderers could be imprisoned for life. We must interpret the meaning in our time where it is possible to do that. --James2 (talk) 17:19, 15 October 2019 (EDT)
In addition to VargasMilan's comment below, here's some reading on the topic: 1,2,3,4,5 No, the meaning of Genesis 9 didn't change after we built jails, and we should be doing exegesis, not eisegesis. --1990'sguy (talk) 20:00, 15 October 2019 (EDT)

Exodus (NIV)

21:12 “Anyone who strikes a person with a fatal blow is to be put to death. 13 However, if it is not done intentionally, but God lets it happen, they are to flee to a place I will designate. 14 But if anyone schemes and kills someone deliberately, that person is to be taken from my altar and put to death.

15 “Anyone who attacks[a] their father or mother is to be put to death.

16 “Anyone who kidnaps someone is to be put to death, whether the victim has been sold or is still in the kidnapper’s possession.

17 “Anyone who curses their father or mother is to be put to death.

18 “If people quarrel and one person hits another with a stone or with their fist[b] and the victim does not die but is confined to bed, 19 the one who struck the blow will not be held liable if the other can get up and walk around outside with a staff; however, the guilty party must pay the injured person for any loss of time and see that the victim is completely healed.

20 “Anyone who beats their male or female slave with a rod must be punished if the slave dies as a direct result, 21 but they are not to be punished if the slave recovers after a day or two, since the slave is their property.

22 “If people are fighting and hit a pregnant woman and she gives birth prematurely[c] but there is no serious injury, the offender must be fined whatever the woman’s husband demands and the court allows. 23 But if there is serious injury, you are to take life for life, 24 eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, 25 burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise.

26 “An owner who hits a male or female slave in the eye and destroys it must let the slave go free to compensate for the eye. 27 And an owner who knocks out the tooth of a male or female slave must let the slave go free to compensate for the tooth.

28 “If a bull gores a man or woman to death, the bull is to be stoned to death, and its meat must not be eaten. But the owner of the bull will not be held responsible. 29 If, however, the bull has had the habit of goring and the owner has been warned but has not kept it penned up and it kills a man or woman, the bull is to be stoned and its owner also is to be put to death.

22:18 “Do not allow a sorceress to live.

19 “Anyone who has sexual relations with an animal is to be put to death.

20 “Whoever sacrifices to any god other than the Lord must be destroyed.[a]

35:2 For six days, work is to be done, but the seventh day shall be your holy day, a day of sabbath rest to the Lord. Whoever does any work on it is to be put to death.

Leviticus

20:9 “‘Anyone who curses their father or mother is to be put to death. Because they have cursed their father or mother, their blood will be on their own head.

10 “‘If a man commits adultery with another man’s wife—with the wife of his neighbor—both the adulterer and the adulteress are to be put to death.

11 “‘If a man has sexual relations with his father’s wife, he has dishonored his father. Both the man and the woman are to be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.

12 “‘If a man has sexual relations with his daughter-in-law, both of them are to be put to death. What they have done is a perversion; their blood will be on their own heads.

13 “‘If a man has sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They are to be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.

14 “‘If a man marries both a woman and her mother, it is wicked. Both he and they must be burned in the fire, so that no wickedness will be among you.

15 “‘If a man has sexual relations with an animal, he is to be put to death, and you must kill the animal.

16 “‘If a woman approaches an animal to have sexual relations with it, kill both the woman and the animal. They are to be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.

17 “‘If a man marries his sister, the daughter of either his father or his mother, and they have sexual relations, it is a disgrace. They are to be publicly removed from their people. He has dishonored his sister and will be held responsible.

18 “‘If a man has sexual relations with a woman during her monthly period, he has exposed the source of her flow, and she has also uncovered it. Both of them are to be cut off from their people.

27 A man or woman who is a medium or spiritist among you must be put to death. You are to stone them; their blood will be on their own heads.

24:16 anyone who blasphemes the name of the Lord is to be put to death. The entire assembly must stone them. Whether foreigner or native-born, when they blaspheme the Name they are to be put to death.

17 “‘Anyone who takes the life of a human being is to be put to death. 18 Anyone who takes the life of someone’s animal must make restitution—life for life. 19 Anyone who injures their neighbor is to be injured in the same manner: 20 fracture for fracture, eye for eye, tooth for tooth. The one who has inflicted the injury must suffer the same injury. 21 Whoever kills an animal must make restitution, but whoever kills a human being is to be put to death.

18 Anyone who takes the life of someone’s animal must make restitution—life for life. 19 Anyone who injures their neighbor is to be injured in the same manner: 20 fracture for fracture, eye for eye, tooth for tooth. The one who has inflicted the injury must suffer the same injury. 21 Whoever kills an animal must make restitution, but whoever kills a human being is to be put to death.

Numbers 35:16 “‘If anyone strikes someone a fatal blow with an iron object, that person is a murderer; the murderer is to be put to death. 17 Or if anyone is holding a stone and strikes someone a fatal blow with it, that person is a murderer; the murderer is to be put to death. 18 Or if anyone is holding a wooden object and strikes someone a fatal blow with it, that person is a murderer; the murderer is to be put to death. 19 The avenger of blood shall put the murderer to death; when the avenger comes upon the murderer, the avenger shall put the murderer to death. 20 If anyone with malice aforethought shoves another or throws something at them intentionally so that they die 21 or if out of enmity one person hits another with their fist so that the other dies, that person is to be put to death; that person is a murderer. The avenger of blood shall put the murderer to death when they meet.

22 “‘But if without enmity someone suddenly pushes another or throws something at them unintentionally 23 or, without seeing them, drops on them a stone heavy enough to kill them, and they die, then since that other person was not an enemy and no harm was intended, 24 the assembly must judge between the accused and the avenger of blood according to these regulations. 25 The assembly must protect the one accused of murder from the avenger of blood and send the accused back to the city of refuge to which they fled. The accused must stay there until the death of the high priest, who was anointed with the holy oil.

26 “‘But if the accused ever goes outside the limits of the city of refuge to which they fled 27 and the avenger of blood finds them outside the city, the avenger of blood may kill the accused without being guilty of murder. 28 The accused must stay in the city of refuge until the death of the high priest; only after the death of the high priest may they return to their own property.

29 “‘This is to have the force of law for you throughout the generations to come, wherever you live.

30 “‘Anyone who kills a person is to be put to death as a murderer only on the testimony of witnesses. But no one is to be put to death on the testimony of only one witness.

31 “‘Do not accept a ransom for the life of a murderer, who deserves to die. They are to be put to death.

Deuteronomy

9:11 But if out of hate someone lies in wait, assaults and kills a neighbor, and then flees to one of these cities, 12 the killer shall be sent for by the town elders, be brought back from the city, and be handed over to the avenger of blood to die. 13 Show no pity. You must purge from Israel the guilt of shedding innocent blood, so that it may go well with you.

A Rebellious Son

21:18 If someone has a stubborn and rebellious son who does not obey his father and mother and will not listen to them when they discipline him, 19 his father and mother shall take hold of him and bring him to the elders at the gate of his town. 20 They shall say to the elders, “This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious. He will not obey us. He is a glutton and a drunkard.” 21 Then all the men of his town are to stone him to death. You must purge the evil from among you. All Israel will hear of it and be afraid.

Various Laws

22 If someone guilty of a capital offense is put to death and their body is exposed on a pole, 23 you must not leave the body hanging on the pole overnight. Be sure to bury it that same day, because anyone who is hung on a pole is under God’s curse. You must not desecrate the land the Lord your God is giving you as an inheritance.


22:21 she shall be brought to the door of her father’s house and there the men of her town shall stone her to death. She has done an outrageous thing in Israel by being promiscuous while still in her father’s house. You must purge the evil from among you.

22 If a man is found sleeping with another man’s wife, both the man who slept with her and the woman must die. You must purge the evil from Israel.

23 If a man happens to meet in a town a virgin pledged to be married and he sleeps with her, 24 you shall take both of them to the gate of that town and stone them to death—the young woman because she was in a town and did not scream for help, and the man because he violated another man’s wife. You must purge the evil from among you.

25 But if out in the country a man happens to meet a young woman pledged to be married and rapes her, only the man who has done this shall die. 26 Do nothing to the woman; she has committed no sin deserving death. This case is like that of someone who attacks and murders a neighbor, 27 for the man found the young woman out in the country, and though the betrothed woman screamed, there was no one to rescue her.

1 Kings

21:10 But seat two scoundrels opposite him and have them bring charges that he has cursed both God and the king. Then take him out and stone him to death.”

11 So the elders and nobles who lived in Naboth’s city did as Jezebel directed in the letters she had written to them. 12 They proclaimed a fast and seated Naboth in a prominent place among the people. 13 Then two scoundrels came and sat opposite him and brought charges against Naboth before the people, saying, “Naboth has cursed both God and the king.” So they took him outside the city and stoned him to death.

Esther (death of Haman) 4:11-5:2; 7:7-10

II Maccabees

13:5 There is at that place a tower seventy-five feet high, full of ashes,* with a circular rim sloping down steeply on all sides toward the ashes.

6 Anyone guilty of sacrilege or notorious for certain other crimes is brought up there and then hurled down to destruction.

7 In such a manner was Menelaus, that transgressor of the law, fated to die, deprived even of burial.

8 It was altogether just that he who had committed so many sins against the altar with its pure fire and ashes, in ashes should meet his death.

You'd have to thread these together to generalize about the Bible's stance on capital punishment. VargasMilan (talk) Tuesday, 18:27, 15 October 2019 (EDT)


Maccabees isn't cannon - Ecclesiastes is. And both Hillel and Jesus were against capital punishment. --James2 (talk) 14:34, 16 October 2019 (EDT)
You're right about Maccabees not being canon (it's only one "n"), though many (probably most) Christians believe the Apocrypha to be beneficial reading despite not being inspired (e.g. Martin Luther). Also, your claim of Jesus being against the death penalty not only lacks any evidence, but it also contradicts what the Bible says (see Matthew 5:17-18; Luke 16:17). Also, your focus on Maccabees ignores everything else (which is a lot) that I and VargasMilan shared. --1990'sguy (talk) 16:05, 16 October 2019 (EDT)
Matthew 5:17-18 doesn't endorse it, it only says "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled." But it is very clear that Jesus was against stoning people because of adultery.
They said to him (John 8:5) "Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?"
And he replied (John 8:7b) "He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her."
For Christians and Jews the Bible isn't the literal word of God. It was written by inspired people but by people and therefore it contains parts that are at odds to another. Jesus abolished the death penalty for adultery by allowing its execution only to people without guilt, that means to no one, since no human is without guilt: "And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God." (Mark 10:18)
He also abolished the death penalty for violating the Sabbath. He explained the true meaning of the Sabbath: Mark 2:27: "And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:"
And after Hillel that is also the Jewish viewpoint: The true meaning of Sabbath is, that it is a day of rest for all people and even for animals that labor for man during the week: Deuteronomy 5:14 "But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, nor thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thine ox, nor thine ass, nor any of thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates; that thy manservant and thy maidservant may rest as well as thou."
Therefore Jesus didn't go by the literals of the books written by people but by its meaning. He clearly abolished the death penalty in these cases. But he also abolished it altogether as he was sacrificed for the guilt of man: He was killed on the cross. There may be situations like war where rightful people kill others, but after the death of Jesus on the cross, no one can ever attribute that to the will of God anymore.
"And Jesus cried with a loud voice, and gave up the ghost. And the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom. And when the centurion, which stood over against him, saw that he so cried out, and gave up the ghost, he said, Truly this man was the Son of God." (Mark 15:37-39)--James2 (talk) 03:00, 19 October 2019 (EDT)
There's a lot that's wrong with your comments, though I'll keep my response short because of lack of time.
Christians do believe the Bible is the literal Word of God (see Psalm 12:6, Psalm 19:7, Proverbs 30:5, Isaiah 40:8, John 17:17, 1 Corinthians 2:13, 2 Timothy 3:16, Hebrews 6:18, 2 Peter 1:19-21, in addition to Matthew 5:17-18 and Luke 16:17). It is truthful and can be trusted. These articles explain this in more depth than I am willing to write: 1,2,3,4,5,6,7
Jesus did not speak out against the death penalty in the passage in John -- the problem was that the Pharisees were not even following the Law's procedures in the case of adultery correctly and were rather violating it to trap Jesus: [1] Jesus was abiding by the Law.
Jesus opposed the unbiblical additions by the Pharisees to the Sabbath, but he upheld it, as the verses you cited testify, and this isn't relevant to the death penalty issue other than that Jesus upheld (and fulfilled) the Law. --1990'sguy (talk) 23:09, 19 October 2019 (EDT)
That's my faith, that's where I stand. (I once became estranged from religion because of brutal passages like the drowning of the Egyptians that were taught in religious classes: After I've read Kohelet/Ecclesiastes and read again other parts – especially from Mark – I've revived my faith.) --James2 (talk) 07:57, 20 October 2019 (EDT)

Campaign mode (moved section)

--James2 (talk) 16:20, 31 October 2019 (EDT)