Talk:Essay:Calming the Storm

Fascinating comparison. Should we add the CBP translation as well? --TeacherEd 11:13, 20 November 2010 (EST)

Please do add the CBP translation!--Andy Schlafly 12:41, 20 November 2010 (EST)

I think it is silly to have all columns sortable. May I change this? --JulesBongo 17:53, 20 November 2010 (EST)

You're right. Please do fix that. Also, edits are welcome to fill out the tables and suggest improvements -- I'll be doing more of that later today as needed.--Andy Schlafly 18:02, 20 November 2010 (EST)

Probably one of the dumbests things in the CBP

Andy, you wrote: " But "λέγω" -- the Greek term used for said in some versions -- does not appear in the Greek above,"

No, but εἶπεν appears in all Greek versions of Mark 4:39 - as well as in the version used by you! Are you not able to spot an irregular verb? Your complaint is like saying that the verb "to be" is not used in the sentence "the cat is black"!

Any pupil learns the principal forms of verbs like λέγω early on - this shows that you are lacking the most basic knowledge of Greek! --AugustO 05:30, 21 June 2015 (EDT)

Clarifying Mark 4:39

The verse contains the words:

“

εἶπεν τῇ θαλάσσῃ Σιώπα, πεφίμωσο.

”

• εἶπεν is a conjugate form of λέγω, in fact, it is 3rd person singular aorist active indicative. The obvious translation is "He said", or "He commanded". But perhaps he spoke to himself?
• No, he didn't he addressed the sea (θάλασσα) directly, indicated by τῇ θαλάσσῃ, the dative of this feminine noun. But perhaps it was a silent exchange?
• No, it wasn't: Σιώπα, πεφίμωσο is a command, imperative versions of the words Σιώπα ("silence") and φιμόω ("to muzzle"). This is direct speech: Σιώπα means "Silence!" and "πεφίμωσο" means "Be muzzled!"

Putting this all together we get:

“

He commanded the sea: "Silence! Be quite!

”

Therefore, the whole essay is nonsense, based on a rookie mistake.

--AugustO 06:08, 21 June 2015 (EDT)

Modern physicians -- the insights of quantum mechanics -- suggest that the calming was achieved by observation, not by word or deed.

Physicians????? --AugustO 09:04, 21 June 2015 (EDT)

The real meaning of the Greek "ἐπιτιμάω" is closer to "judge" than to affirmatively rebuke.

I couldn't find any source confirming this "insight". ἐπιτιμάω has quite opposite meanings (honor and rebuke) - like "to sanction" in English. But "to judge" is none of them. In fact, ἐπιτιμάω is done by a judge after his judgement... --AugustO 09:24, 21 June 2015 (EDT)

Andy, it's your essay, correct your mistakes, please

As this is your essay, I won't touch it. But if you don't want it to be deleted, you should at least correct the most egregious errors. Ignoring critique is an all to common habit around here, and won't help to improve articles!

text	problems
Jesus's Calming the Storm is described in three Gospels: beginning at Matthew 8:23, Mark 4:39, and Luke 8:24.	—
The issue is how Jesus actually calmed the storm: by word, by deed, or by observation?	Whose issue is this? Was the question ever risen before?
Modern physicians -- the insights of quantum mechanics -- suggest that the calming was achieved by observation, not by word or deed.	You certainly intend to say "physics". But how does it suggest this? That's nonsense.
Is "rebuked" the correct translation of the Greek term "ἐπιτιμάω", which appears in all three verses above and in connection with other miracles, such as Jesus's lifting of the fever in Luke 4:39?	Yes, it is, it's one of the main meanings of ἐπιτιμάω, and ἐπιτιμάω is consistently understood that way in the Gospels
The real meaning of the Greek "ἐπιτιμάω" is closer to "judge" than to affirmatively rebuke.	There is no evidence that ἐπιτιμάω means "to judge" - "to judge" judge is not even a meaning of ἐπιτιμάω, and far less the real meaning.
The term can even be used in a positive manner, as in "honor" or "raise the price of."	So what? It is akin to "to sanction"
The English term "rebuke" carries the primary connotation of a verbal communication, while in the Greek ἐπιτιμάω has the primary connotation of a non-verbal judgment.	That is wrong: the primary connotation of ἐπιτιμάω is "to warn", usually verbally!
In the Mark verse above, traditional translations insert the word "said" as though Jesus caused the calming by verbally ordering the sea to be still.	Traditional translations don't have to insert the word "said" in Mark's verse, as it is already there: εἶπεν means he said or he commanded
But "λέγω" -- the Greek term used for said in some versions -- does not appear in the Greek above,	Nonsense. The present of the first person does not appear, but the indicative of the third person of this verb! That is a rookie mistake!
, and where it does appear in Greek versions its real meaning is to "lay", to "cause to lie down," or to "put to sleep."	no, that is wrong - this is not its real but its original meaning: Homer may have used it this way. The typical use during the time the Gospels were written down, was "to say" or "to command".
It only has a connotation of speaking when used in a context of verbal communication (as in putting one word with another), which is not the case here.	As it is followed by direct speech, the context of verbal communication is given

Anyone with a little Greek reading this essay will spot your basic mistakes, anyone with an interest in physics will be befuddled by your invocation of quantum mechanics.

--AugustO 14:08, 21 June 2015 (EDT)

Andy, please delete this essay!

I get the impression that it is nearly impossible for you to admit to a serious error - perhaps you think that doing so would debase the CBP even further. But I do not think that this could be worse than keeping up this monument of your ignorance. --AugustO 01:55, 22 June 2015 (EDT)

in the silent sense [it] can mean "he meant" or "he judged."

Andy, you are hilarious. εἶπεν is definitely not used in a "silent sense": see #Clarifying Mark 4:39 above. And still you claim:

But "λέγω" -- the Greek term used for said in some versions -- does not appear in the Greek above

This sentence shows that you would fail Greek 101.

--AugustO (talk) 02:55, 10 March 2016 (EST)

It only took....

....eight months, dozens of posts, and hundreds of words, but at last, it is done. Thank you?

But I'm curious: how can you claim that «the real meaning of "λέγω" is to "lay", to "cause to lie down," or to "put to sleep"»? That was the meaning a couple of hundred years earlier! But not in Koine Greek: No other verb (besides "to be") is used more often in the New Testament, and as far as I can see, it is always used as "to say" (see Talk:Biblical_scientific_foreknowledge#Need_to_discuss_further_on_the_talk_page). --AugustO (talk) 16:54, 19 March 2016 (EDT)

Modern physicians suggest that the calming was achieved by observation, not by word or deed.

• Are these physicians part-time physicists?
• Andy, if there are physicists who suggest such a thing, could you name some?
• Or is this an abstract:"modern physics suggests"? Could you give some details?

--AugustO (talk) 18:48, 24 March 2016 (EDT)

it only took a year! --AugustO (talk) 03:16, 30 March 2017 (EDT)

Statement on Translations

Andy, it the Lord's Prayer the prayer which Jesus Christ taught us - or isn't it, as we don't use the Aramaic version? God's words are God's words. --AugustO (talk) 11:01, 4 April 2017 (EDT)

August, the Lord's Prayer was part of Jesus's teaching. Yes, that was in Greek. But the spontaneous, emotional statements by Jesus were in the language of his youth - Aramaic. Again, this is basic. It's fine for you to ask about it, but your childish, uninformed style (like your heading above) is getting tiresome.--Andy Schlafly (talk) 11:06, 4 April 2017 (EDT)

Spontaneous, emotional statements? Given John 18:4, I have troubles to imagine those...

What I would call uninformed is your view of quantum mechanics: the storm was already observed - the pupils didn't exclaim "we wonder whether there is a storm hidden over there, we cannot see anything". You cannot un-observe an event - so when Jesus saw the storm, there was no question whether it was or was not. --AugustO (talk) 11:46, 4 April 2017 (EDT)

In John 18:4, Jesus is speaking to officials and Roman soldiers. Greek was the lingua franca for that, obviously.

It's OK for you to make uninformed comments. But your childish, uninformed style gets tiresome. If you don't want to have an intellectual discussion without constantly resorting to childish putdowns, then maybe Conservapedia is not for you.--Andy Schlafly (talk) 12:32, 4 April 2017 (EDT)

• Perhaps I wasn't clear enough - it's about the first half of John 18:4 "Ἰησοῦς οὖν εἰδὼς πάντα τὰ ἐρχόμενα ἐπ’ αὐτὸν"
• Yes, taking part in these conversations can be frustrating from time and time - this results in a certain testiness on my side. But I think it is important to have these discussions as they are concerning Rev 22:18-20.
• Just declaring that something is basic doesn't make it so: the question which of Jesus's words were Aramaic, which Greek, which even Latin isn't simple at all.
• Whether Jesus addressed the sea in Aramaic or Greek is not important: Mark could rely on the best possible information - probably by the Apostle Peter (he wasn't a modern romance novelist who asked himself "what could my protagonist have said here?") Then, he gave us the Greek version of this information.

--AugustO (talk) 12:59, 4 April 2017 (EDT)

As to your first point, there is no reason to expect that any of your citation would be in Aramaic instead of Greek, and you don't explain otherwise. As to your second point, discussion is important and that is what it is essential that intelligent discussion not be censored through the use of childish putdowns, which is the effect such a style can have.

As to your third point, Jesus spoke in Aramaic when uttering an emotional, spontaneous remark to others who spoke Aramaic. This is basic and is not disputed. There are numerous instances in the Gospels.

As to your fourth point, Mark did use Aramaic in those situations. See, e.g., "Talitha kuom" in Mark 5:41. He did not use Aramaic in the encounter with the sea, and hence Mark was probably not quoting Jesus. Of course, there are additional reasons to conclude that Mark was not quoting Jesus as well.--Andy Schlafly (talk) 14:42, 4 April 2017 (EDT)

• John 18:4 indicates that Jesus has generally no need for spontaneous statements.
• Jesus spoke Aramaic. The not so basic question is to which extant did He use the Greek language? Take the discussion with His pupils on the boat which is given in Greek in Luke, Mark, and Matthew. Did it not happen? There are small varieties between these versions, but nevertheless those are His words, given to us in Greek.
• What you describe as "childish putdowns" isn't censorship, it's a nuisance at best. Abuse of blocking power is censorship - have you seen the last block of User:SamHB?
• yes, Mark 5:41 does use a short Aramaic phrase - while the same episode in Luke 8:54 only uses the Greek phrase. Both is marked as direct speech. So, at best, the use of Aramaic is not consistent over the Gospels.
• Frankly, there are no additional reasons to conclude that Mark was not quoting Jesus - as I wrote elsewhere:

Mark 4:39, Matthew 8:26, and Luke 8:24 use the verb ἐπιτιμάω to state that Jesus rebuked the sea. This may or may not be done verbally. Luke 8:25 uses the verb ἐπιτάσσω which indicates a spoken order. Mark 4:39 uses the verb λέγω, indicating that Jesus spoke to the sea. Nothing in these verses contradicts the idea that Jesus gave a verbal command. The idea that Jesus gave a silent command or just made an observation isn't consistent with the second and the third point. There is no compelling reason to believe that Jesus stayed silent.

--AugustO (talk) 15:38, 4 April 2017 (EDT)

"John 18:4 indicates that Jesus has generally no need for spontaneous statements." - your claim is silly at best. Jesus spoke spontaneously at times like anyone else. He spoke Aramaic casually and spontaneously, Greek while teaching, and probably Hebrew too. You're simply incorrect in continuing to claim that "ἐπιτάσσω" means "a spoken order." I gave you the citation that explains otherwise. You are incorrect about λέγω also, as this citation explains: [1].--Andy Schlafly (talk) 17:14, 4 April 2017 (EDT)