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→Were any Old Testament figures saved by grace or baptism?: rebuttal of challenges by RobS - submitted after edit conflict by RobSe
:::::'''I did cite scripture.''' My response each time was solidly based on scripture. Church doctrine supports scripture. You reject fundamental parts of the Bible and twist its meaning for the sake of your credobaptist tradition, "a tradition of men", which the vast body of all Christianity in the sixteenth century, ''solidly based on scripture'' (on the whole context of the entire Bible), denounced as a Satanic heresy based on violation of the Bible itself. [[Cafeteria Christianity#Proof texts]]. And I will not reject Christian doctrine based for over sixteen centuries on the whole context of the Bible and the "mind of Christ" in the [[sensus fidelium]], [[sensus plenior]], [[sensus Christianorum]] in all of the passages of the Bible I have cited all down through this page. I am heedful of the warning of Peter 1 Peter 3:15-18. However much you press me to do so, I will not deny Christ. --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 16:38, 30 October 2019 (EDT)
:::::'''I did cite scripture.''' My response each time was solidly based on scripture. Church doctrine supports scripture. You reject fundamental parts of the Bible and twist its meaning for the sake of your credobaptist tradition, "a tradition of men", which the vast body of all Christianity in the sixteenth century, ''solidly based on scripture'' (on the whole context of the entire Bible), denounced as a Satanic heresy based on violation of the Bible itself. [[Cafeteria Christianity#Proof texts]]. And I will not reject Christian doctrine based for over sixteen centuries on the whole context of the Bible and the "mind of Christ" in the [[sensus fidelium]], [[sensus plenior]], [[sensus Christianorum]] in all of the passages of the Bible I have cited all down through this page. I am heedful of the warning of Peter 1 Peter 3:15-18. However much you press me to do so, I will not deny Christ. --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 16:38, 30 October 2019 (EDT)
::::::You haven't answered the question: ''Was Abraham saved?'' [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]]</sup> 17:15, 30 October 2019 (EDT)
::::::You haven't answered the question: ''Was Abraham saved?'' [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]]</sup> 17:15, 30 October 2019 (EDT)
===Exodus chapter 33===
:::1 Cor. 10:4 ''all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.''
:::Exodus 33: ''And the LORD said unto Moses, I will do this thing also that thou hast spoken: for '''thou hast found grace in my sight'''''
:::''Behold, '''there is a place by me, and thou shalt stand upon a rock''''' [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]]</sup> 12:49, 30 October 2019 (EDT)
::::God also told Moses, "My face you shall not see, for no one can see my face and live" (Exodus 33:18-23). Moses and Aaron, Nadab and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel went up on the mountain, and they did see the God of Israel up on the top of the peak, but only from a distance, not up close (Exodus 24:9-11). Abuse of the statement that Moses talked with God "face to face" has been competently answered by qualified biblical scholars as a Semitic expression of intimate friendship of communion, not a pre-incarnate appearance of Jesus face to face, nor a direct visual encounter of the [[Beatific vision]]. These scholars also explain that the "gospel" preached to Israel in the wilderness of Sanai was not the Christian revelation, but the good news in the law revealed to Moses explaining the rewards of obedience "if you obey my word". That message included the promise of a Prophet to come. <br> In answer to the challenge of reconciling Moses and John – Take a look at the commentaries on [http://biblehub.com/commentaries/deuteronomy/5-4.htm Deuteronomy 5:4 "The L<small>ORD</small> spoke with you face to face at the mountain, out of the midst of fire."] Their answer is mine also. Moses beheld the presence of the Lord, and spoke with Him "face to face", but he did not see the face of God. The scholars have explained all this. I agree with them. The challenge to reconcile Moses and John has been met and answered already. Their response is my response as well. This makes me and them "competent to explain" the scriptures according to "the mind of Christ".
:::::That's your response?
:::::*Mark 7:13 ''Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.'' [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]]</sup> 15:58, 30 October 2019 (EDT)
:::::God didn't mean what he said, or he was too stupid to clarify himself. He needed human scholars and teachers to set it straight, huh? [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]]</sup> 15:59, 30 October 2019 (EDT)
::::::He said, "Except a man be born again of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God." It is you who make the word of God of no effect through your credobaptist tradition. That is why credobaptists in the sixteenth century were condemned by Protestants and Catholics for abuse of the scriptures. Documented ''[[anathema]]s'' against credobaptism go all the way back to the 3rd century. And Protestants agreed.
::::::Conservative Christian historians and [[Christian apologetics|apologists]] are mindful of this statement by [[John Eck]] addressed to [[Martin Luther]], in the year 1521:<ref>Eck's statement here is supremely appropriate in light of Luther's refusal to submit to the judgment of the Church, the emperor Charles V, and the [[Pope]], and the teaching of Paul in [https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans+13:1-5&version=KJV Romans 13:1-5].</ref><blockquote>
::::::"...there is no one of the [[Heresy|heresies]] which have torn the bosom of the church, which has not derived its origin from the various interpretation of the Scripture. The Bible itself is the arsenal whence each innovator has drawn his [[ Specious reasoning|deceptive arguments]]. It was with biblical texts that [[Pelagianism|Pelagius]] and [[Arius]] maintained their doctrines. Arius, for instance, found the negation of the eternity of the Word—an eternity which you admit, in this verse of the New Testament—''Joseph knew not his wife till she had brought forth her first-born son''; and he said, in the same way that you say, that this passage '''enchained''' him. When the fathers of the [[council of Constance]] condemned this proposition of [[John Huss]]—''The church of Jesus Christ is only the community of the elect'', they condemned an error; for the church, like a good mother, embraces within her arms all who bear the name of Christian, all who are called to enjoy the celestial beatitude."<ref>{{cite web|url=http://law2.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/luther/lutherbyluther.html#secondnarrative|title=Life of Luther (Luther by Martin Luther)|author=Martin Luther|publisher=}}</ref>
</blockquote>
::::::(Compare the article on [[Hypocrites]].) --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 16:59, 30 October 2019 (EDT)
:::::::Did God speak to Moses face to face, as a man speaketh to his friend (Martin Luther has nothing to do with this question). The answer is a simple 'yes' or 'no'.
:::::::The next question is: Are there contradictions in the bible? Is the bible inviolate? (Here, scholars, church teaching, and church tradition can't help you. Your response is entirely dependent on your faith). [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]]</sup> 17:11, 30 October 2019 (EDT)
::::::::The Pentecostal article below is a rebuttal of your position, and is presented here as my response. Jesus saved many people without their faith. That includes babies, Old Testament saints
::::::::"''Here, scholars, church teaching, and church tradition can't help you.''" Devout scholars, church teaching, and church tradition do help. But you refuse to accept it (John 10:25-26). Your refusal is a clear example of classic [[Confirmation bias]]. All of the centuries-old consistent understanding of the Bible by all of Christendom ''based on the Bible'' is held in contempt by you. Even when presented with an abundance of scripture alone which demolishes the house of credobaptist doctrine as clearly opposed to the Bible, you reject it. [http://biblegateway.com/verse/en/Matthew/23-38.htm Matthew 23:38]. I had thought that you were a person of honest Christian integrity dedicated to the truth of the Bible. From the way you worded some of your answers I believe that you actually refused ''on principle'' to read the authoritative Bible texts and sources linked for immediate access which contradict credobaptism. Look at the article on [[Enmity]]. <br> Some of the people who read this page when I showed it to them said you were being sarcastic, and are someone who always has to have to have the "last word" no matter what is said. They told me I was wasting all my time and energy on this page in a pointless exercise of unending futility. They said if you ever change your mind, it won't be because of me. They said just leave it to the Lord and he will deal with you. <br> I have been patient with you, and firm. I am also grateful. Because of your challenges I have carefully re-read the Bible like the long-ago Beroeans of Acts 17:11, and the fruit of all this is that I have gained a much deeper insight to what it was like for Jesus to debate with the scribes and Sadducees and Pharisees who refused to listen to him even when he cited the scriptures. The result of this research was the abundance of Bible texts cited in context which clearly support the doctrine of regenerative baptism against credobaptism. I had constant recourse to [[Strong's|Strong's Exhaustive Concordance with its Hebrew and Greek dictionaries of the Old and New Testaments]]. I will have no more to do with you, as Paul advised [http://biblegateway.com/verse/en/Matthew/23-38.htm Titus 3:10]. --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 18:17, 30 October 2019 (EDT)
====References====
{{reflist}}
====What have we learned from our father, Abraham?====
====What have we learned from our father, Abraham?====