Talk:Infant baptism

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Romans 10:9

Romans 10:9 is most often cited that no form of baptism is required for salvation. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 12:49, 6 October 2019 (EDT)

Thank you Rob. The dispute over this issue also includes a requisite follow-up by the believer
according to the Great Commission of Matthew 28:19-20
and the requirement of Mark 16:15-16 and Acts 8:35-39; Acts 9:17-19; Acts 10:47-48; Acts 19:1-6,
together with the commandment of Paul in 2 Thessalonians 2:15.
According to 1 Peter 3:21 baptism (in Christ) is what saves us now (as cited in the article).
Infant baptism here includes a list-citation of undeniable Bible references which mention the requirement of baptism for salvation.
John 3:3-5; Matthew 28:18-19; Mark 16:15-16; Acts 2:38-39; Ephesians 5:25-27; 1 Peter 3:21.
Any preaching that ignores these verses is a good example of confirmation bias and of Cafeteria Christianity.
See also the general article on Baptism.
Peace be with you. --Dataclarifier (talk) 15:01, 7 October 2019 (EDT)
It's basically the difference between Roman Catholic and Protestant; Protestants say it takes the conscious will of the believer; Catholics say it doesn't. In the Mormon faith they practice intercessionary baptism for the dead, which isn't far removed from infant baptism. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 15:19, 7 October 2019 (EDT)
The resemblance is only superficial. See the article fallacy of analogy. The differences between Catholic and Mormon theology are profound, not to mention the fact that Catholicism is monotheistic and the Mormon faith posits a multiplicity of separately distinct god-beings comparable to the doctrine of Cosmic Humanism. --Dataclarifier (talk) 15:59, 7 October 2019 (EDT)
Not that far off; the idea of a ceremonial cleansing ritual necessary for salvation for a subject who hasn't given consent is ridiculous. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 16:23, 7 October 2019 (EDT)
Also, it might be worth noting that several manuscripts and numerous versions of the modern Bible include verse 37 in Acts 8:35-39. The NIV just leaves out this verse:
See, here is water. What hinders me from being baptized?”

[37] Then Philip said, “If you believe with all your heart, you may.” And he answered and said, “I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.” [38] So he commanded the chariot to stand still. And both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water, and he baptized him.

This verse makes it clear that the belief is required prior to baptism. --DavidB4 (TALK) 16:42, 7 October 2019 (EDT)
The issue is salvation. And what is required for salvation. The answer is metanoia - repentance - a change of heart and change of mind. A change of heart and mind in your attitude toward God, sin, and what God says about sin. Ritual cleansing cannot satisfy God.
Here's the Express drive-thru scriptural interpretation:
  • Satan defied God and when he said "I will exalt myself..."
  • Jesus provided the way for salvation when he said "Father, let this cup pass, nevertheless Thy will, not my will..."
  • In the proverb of the Prodigal son, which is a metaphor for all unsaved humanity, the prodigal son said, "I will return to house of my father...." (i.e. metanoia or repentance, a change of heart and mind toward his father) without any ritual cleansing on his part. When he arrived, he was clothed by his father. Only the blood of Jesus saves;.
And I should have included this part up front: remainder of Romans 10:9-10, "For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. In all three examples above the "I will" part came out of the mouth. Salvation is not dependent upon any action (or "work") by us. "It is finished", as Jesus said. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 17:20, 7 October 2019 (EDT)

In the body of the article I covered both sides of that point as follows:

This doctrine of "regenerative baptism" which causes an ontological change that actually cleanses and washes away sins, by effecting in the soul a new supernatural life directly infused by the "washing of water with the word", is found by apologists for infant baptism in the following scriptural texts:
Ezekiel 11:19-20; 36:25-29a; Jeremiah 24:7; 31:31-33; Titus 3:5-6; 2 Peter 1:9; 1 Peter 3:21; Ephesians 5:25b-27; and Colossians 2:9-14.
They point to these texts as teaching that according to the Bible baptism saves us now by regeneration of the soul unto new life, as a "new creature", and that Jesus sanctifies and cleanses his church with the washing of water with the word as a sign of the cleansing of the soul by his blood, to present the whole church in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish. They point to the fact that Paul teaches by a typological analogy that baptism replaces circumcision, which is done when a child is only eight days old, which made that baby a genuine member of the people of God, to be raised and taught the way of the Lord in truth, by the priests of the faith.[1]
This doctrine of baptismal regeneration, which includes infant baptism, is repudiated as being totally against the teaching of the Bible. Abraham, our father in faith, was converted, regenerated, forgiven and had righteousness reckoned (imputed) to him by faith (an unborn or newborn child cannot exercise faith), being circumcised in the heart by faith, apart from physical circumcision, baptism, or any other statute, or ordinance. Those who reject infant baptism as regenerative or salvific in any manner accept that the outward symbol of washing of water with the word is an ordinance to be faithfully obeyed, not a sacrament, an outward testimony to faith in the salvation of God through believing in the promises of Jesus Christ alone. They obey His ordained ordinances, including baptism, because by faith in Him they are regenerated, not in order to be regenerated; and as a result of having a new heart, not that they might receive a new heart.[2]

No one can say that I didn't present both sides. The scriptures listed here are the best response I can give to the objections raised here regarding the need for conscious repentance, and the fact that infants unborn and born are incapable of it before they are able to walk. You have clearly articulated the position for credobaptism, reiterating the arguments for it which I was very careful to represent without distortion as more extensively explained in the article. Having been an ardent Conservative Baptist and anti-Catholic in my youth, I know the arguments for it from the inside. See the related article giving both views in Salvation: declarational salvation and ontological salvation. Both cannot be true at the same time. Only one is probably right. Either that, or both are wrong. Meanwhile, look at Revelation 22:11 and Matthew 15:14. It remains a matter of faith and discernment and being "honest to God". In accordance with your own tradition of preaching, be very certain that your position is correct before you die. I cannot fault your obviously genuine sincerity and your passion for scriptural proof in defense of your position. This response above, and the whole of the article itself, is all I have to say to your position that baptism is not required for salvation. As a Bible believer, I cannot ignore the whole of the scriptural context of the Bible. I wish you well. pax vobis. --Dataclarifier (talk) 11:00, 10 October 2019 (EDT)

Thank you. I wasn't intending to get into an argument over the merits of one side or the other. Th Protestant version is quite straight forward - Romans 10:9-10, and Ephesian 2:8 By grace are ye saved...not of works, attributing baptism as a "work" on the believers part, nullifying the work on the cross. In Protestantism, physical baptism is symbolic, and not necessary for salvation. Even in John the Baptist's day, it was symbolic; it wasn't lepers "going out in the wilderness to see," as Jesus said, it was lost sinners to hear the word of God, and be "immersed" or "baptized" in the word. John the Baptist performed a ritual, which was only symbolic, while delivering the word. This is the Protestant teaching in a few words. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 15:15, 10 October 2019 (EDT)
Even in Catholicism, infant baptism is symbolic, because babies are not immersed, only sprinkled. The word baptism means immersed. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 15:21, 10 October 2019 (EDT)
The regular Catholic rite of baptism is by infusion (pouring), or by immersion (being immersed) or submersion (standing in water, with water poured over the head), not by aspersion. You have been misinformed by sources that cannot be trusted, since it is evident that what they told you about Catholic baptism is not true.
Look at Hebrews 10:22 "Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts [already] sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water." And John 3:5 "Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." And 1 Peter 1:2 "Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied."
According to Catholic doctrine the sacrament of water baptism is an actual application of the blood of Christ directly to the soul through the washing (λουτρόν loutron, not solely immersion βαπτίζω baptizo) of water with the word (both word and water are required). As Moses sprinkled (ραντίσμος rhantismos) the book and all the people with blood, purifying them, "purging them", so also the sprinkling (of the blood of Christ) in baptism purges away sin (Hebrews 9:18-23). "Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus [Baptism], By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the vail, that is to say, his flesh [Eucharist]; And having an high priest over the house of God; Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts [already] sprinkled (ραντίσμος rhantismos) from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed (λουτρόν loutron) with pure water." The evil conscience is the stain of original sin in the sight of God which makes us aware that we already from the moment of conception fall short of the glory of God, and the additional defilement of an evil conscience by any personal sins committed after birth. Thus infants and babies are cleansed of an evil conscience because of original sin. If they didn't have sin, they could not die (Romans 5:12), but many babies and newborns do die. Baptism saves 1 Peter 3:21 by washing away sins Acts 22:16. Catholic tradition since the time of the catacombs and the imprisonment of converts not yet baptized (the Romans even condemned babies of converts) taught then and teaches now the act of baptism into the blood of Christ unto salvation was held to have been accomplished in emergency with the least droplet of "water with the word" in accordance with the command in Matthew 28:19 to [first] baptize making them disciples, to be followed in Matthew 28:20 by [second] the teaching of the faith of belief, "all that I have commanded you". In the article I listed those several verses which are cited to support regenerative baptism.
The necessity of baptism for salvation is seen by the majority of Christians as divinely revealed by God in the following Bible texts:
John 3:3-5; Matthew 28:18-19; Mark 16:15-16; Acts 2:38-39; Ephesians 5:25-27; 1 Peter 3:21.
"You are badly misled" Mark 12:27. (James 5:20) —Peace be with you. --Dataclarifier (talk) 18:58, 10 October 2019 (EDT)
John 4:10, "I will give you living waters" [1], spoken by the same guy who said, "unless a man be born of water and of the Spirit (he said nothing of immersion in either context).
I was baptized Catholic I think at about 10 days old. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 19:13, 10 October 2019 (EDT)
Take a look at the new section presenting a comparative analysis of Faith and Works relating to infant baptism Infant baptism#Faith and works. If this is not balanced, or unfair, please let me know. I hope this helps. --Dataclarifier (talk) 13:56, 12 October 2019 (EDT)
Thanks. And the link to Eternal security (salvation) is a big help. It all comes down to the simple Question of What is Salvation?
From there we ask Why did Christ die?, or What is the work of the cross?
When those questions are answered, then comes the question What is necessary for salvation?, which leads to the question surrounding "baptism", and what does it mean "to be baptized."
IOWs, we sort of started in a reverse order here. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 14:19, 12 October 2019 (EDT)

Not to beat a dead horse...

Dataclarifer cites Mark 12:27 , You are badly misled where Christ responds with they neither marry nor are given in marriage to the question, "Who's wife shall she be in the afterlife?" Elsewhere, and cited on this page, are Christ's words, That which is flesh is flesh, that which is spirit is spirit. Dataclarifier, evidently more from habit than deception or malice, mistakenly quotes a spiritual response above to a question about the flesh. More recently he claims God uses matter and material means as vehicles of His Grace and Salvation. A pattern emerges: Dataclarifier cannot discern between spirit and flesh, spiritual language and fleshly language; Dataclarifier has developed a habit over a long time of consciously, and sometimes unconsciously, misusing the Word of God.

My advice to Dataclarifier: Stop using the word of God until God grants you authority to use it; everyone will have to give account on the day of judgment for every empty word they have spoken (NIV) - and this goes double for use and misuse of God's Word. RobSLive Free or Die 20:14, 14 June 2020 (EDT)

Refs

Article completed, request that it be locked

I have finally completed the whole article, after carefully reviewing and representing all of the relevant controversial views and sources historical and contemporary both pro and con. Due to the intense controvery and polemic attending this topic that I found still evident online during my researches, I humbly ask that the article be locked to prevent both vandalism and any re-editing by subtle deletions and additions intended to slant it more toward or away from any one particular doctrinal view. "Just the facts, Ma'am." (Det. Sgt. Joe Friday–Dragnet TV series).
Peace be with you. Semper Fi ! --Dataclarifier (talk) 14:39, 18 October 2019 (EDT)

Given that I have a lot to do off wiki, I added a small amount of information, yet the information I did add made very important points.
After all is said and done, I think you knew the article had its shortcomings in terms of not adequately representing views other than your own. And that is why you wanted the article locked. But Conservapedia has a number of conservative Protestant editors, so you cannot expect Conservapedia articles not to adequately cover the Protestant view. If you do this, you will just cause unnecessary edit warring, etc. Wikignome72 (talk) 10:46, 4 November 2019 (EST)
I relied on what I found online at Wikipedia "Infant baptism" and with search "Denominations that practice infant baptism". Both searches provided the statements made in the body of the article re denominations that do not practice infant baptism, for example the "Oneness" groups. I repeated the same information further down, that the credobaptist position condemns to hell the whole specific list of denominations that practice infant baptism. I appreciate what you added and have absolutely no objection to it. However, you seriously misjudged my motive for requesting a lock according to reasons I explained to Andy Schlafly on his talk page regarding the hot-button topic of infant baptism as treated online. He apparently agreed with my reason. The behavior of RobSmith, below, is a perfect example of intrusively prejudicial one-sided editing imbalance that should be kept from a balanced article on such a sensitive doctrinal issue. I wish you well. Thank you, again. --Dataclarifier (talk) 02:30, 5 November 2019 (EST)

"Helpless" babies and sinners - Ephesians 2:11-16 and Romans 5:12-19; Romans 5:6-11 and 8:31-39; 2 Timothy 2:13 and 2 Corinthians 1:19-22 and John 10:35

Consider the argument that Jesus died to save the helpless and powerless who have no faith, "having no hope and without God in the world" Ephesians 2:11-16 and Romans 5:12-19.
No one is more helpless than the unborn, newborn, infant, baby, or child in arms who cannot walk, and has no conscious faith and no conscious hope βρέφη brephe (Luke 18:15).
Compare Romans 5:6-11 and 8:31-39
Yet Jesus says, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a man be born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter the kingdom of God."
Taken all together within the context of the whole of the Bible and together with the fact that God cannot contradict Himself, and that scripture cannot be broken, infant baptism is supported by the Bible.
Compare 2 Timothy 2:13; 2 Corinthians 1:19-22; John 10:35.
The word "faith" does not appear in any of these passages. Infants without faith and hope and God are helpless, and God saves them "while they are still helpless" by baptism with water and the word (Ephesians 5:26).
Peace be with you. --Dataclarifier (talk) 01:53, 23 October 2019 (EDT)

After careful reflection and consideration, I have decided it would be useful to adapt the comments immediately above into a brief separate article: Helpless babies and sinners.
--Dataclarifier (talk) 09:14, 23 October 2019 (EDT)
What is salvation?
And please, make your response simple enough that an 8 year old child can understand. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 12:01, 23 October 2019 (EDT)
Let me help you. First, I see you left out the context of Ephesians:
2:8 By grace are ye saved, through faith, and that not of you own; it is a gift from God. - no conditions are placed on grace, other than acceptance. A pardon must be accepted to be valid.
But you are citing it in your second reference,
Romans 5:15: But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man - again, a gift with no conditions.
So grace is a free gift of God - with no conditions (i.e. such as baptism). And salvation is by grace.
The only condition for salvation is acceptance of the gift. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 13:48, 23 October 2019 (EDT)
Your argument seems to be that salvation is some future event, after life in the flesh. To discuss any of this, you need to (1) define salvation; (2) explain why salvation is not for the here and now. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 14:00, 23 October 2019 (EDT)
Salvation is eternal life instead of death, given by baptism now. Simple.
The gift of unmerited salvation which gives eternal life is directly bestowed by the regeneration of baptism (Titus 3:5) "which saves you now" (1 Peter 3:21) ex opere operato, through the ministry of others not of themselves "on behalf of Christ" (2 Corinthians 5:18), on behalf of the same Lord Jesus Christ who does the actual work of the sacrament himself through his blood (1 Peter 1:2), in accordance with the established doctrinal condition demanded by the Lord Jesus Christ himself, "Except a man (Gr τις tis "anyone") be born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter the kingdom of God." John 3:5. This is the free gift of God—with the condition that the Lord himself laid down to be saved. Jesus sanctifies and cleanses "by the washing of water with the word" (Ephesians 5:26). He commanded baptism in Matthew 28:19.
"Why do you call me, Lord, Lord, and do not do what I command?" (Luke 6:46; Matthew 7:21; John 15:10).
Jesus does this from love for a purpose (John 3:17; Ephesians 1:5; Matthew 28:19).
Salvation is the rescue of the soul, by the cleansing blood of Christ on the cross (1 John 1:7) through the washing of water with the word, that the soul might be born again (regenerated) by water and the Spirit, saved from the everlasting ruin of sin, saved for "good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them." (Romans 2:7; 1 John 3:7; James 2:24). Babies saved by the salvation of baptism grow up to serve the Lord by the power of the grace bestowed through salvation by regeneration, by the washing of water with the word, born again by water and the Spirit, buried with him in baptism—saved from the wrath to come on those who are not cleansed of their sin (1 John 3:10; 2 Corinthians 7:1; Revelation 20:15; 22:14-15). The essence of salvation, and the result of salvation, bestowed on the helpless sinner is a partaking of the divine nature (2 Peter 1:4) by the everlasting life of God in Christ Jesus poured out on the helpless soul (Romans 5:6) by "water and the Spirit", and the eucharist, which bestows the "life that now is and is to come" 1 Timothy 4:8.
Read the article Did Jesus or the apostles heal everyone because of their faith? - Let Us Reason Ministries (letusreason.org).
--Dataclarifier (talk) 03:10, 27 October 2019 (EDT)
Ok. A rather full, complete response. Now, When does salvation begin?
And you know my next question, Can a person loose their salvation? Is God's promise of salvation limited? Can "salvation by baptism" be lost? RobSDe Plorabus Unum 12:46, 27 October 2019 (EDT)
Salvation begins with baptism. See the Catechism of the Catholic Church, 1213-1284 and 1987-2029. God loves the whole world so much (John 3:16-17) that he is "not willing that any should perish" 2 Peter 3:9. The doctrine that salvation can be lost, that it can be rescinded, revoked and forfeited by mortal sin, is covered in the article Eternal security (salvation). Abundant supporting Bible passages regarding the danger of losing salvation are listed and quoted there. It is also already adequately covered here in this article Infant baptism. From your question above, you either forgot the material covered in the article here, which fully answers your question, or you did not actually read it. If you did read it, please read it again. (1&nbap; Peter 3:15)
(by the way, you misspelled "lose", as in lost. "loose" is to release, set free, unfasten.)
--Dataclarifier (talk) 17:22, 27 October 2019 (EDT)
Baptism does not save. The blood of Jesus saves. And eternal life does not mean eternal life, I suppose; God must be a liar, then. And you nullify the doctrine of grace and and death of Jesus if you think mortal sin can undo the work of Christ.
Who needs Jesus? and what did he die for? if we are still judged by our works (being baptized) or mortal sins? Grace, I suppose is non-existent. And when God promised eternal life, it wasn't contingent on God's sacrifice of his Son, but still on your own works is what you are preaching.
This people worships me with their lips, but their heart is far from me, teaching as commandments the doctrines of men
See also Mark chapter 7: “You have a fine way of rejecting the commandment of God in order to establish your tradition!....13 thus making void the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And many such things you do.”
Let me point out the obvious error - without shedding of blood there is no remission. Baptism is by water, not of blood. You are offering a bloodless sacrifice of your works, rejecting the work of Christ, to establish your own tradition.. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 17:43, 27 October 2019 (EDT)
1 Peter 3:21 "baptism doth also now save us." —You deny this.
John 3:5 "Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born (regenerated) of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." —You contradict this.
Hebrews 10:26 "if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins."
2 Peter 2:20 "For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning." —You deny this.
2 Peter 3:17 "beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness." —You deny this warning.
1 Corinthians 10:12 "Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall." —You deny this danger.
2 John 8 "Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward."
1 Timothy 6:3 "If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;" 1 Timothy 6:4 "He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings" 1 Timothy 6:5 "Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself."
2 Timothy 2:14 "Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers."
Titus 3:9 "But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain."
Titus 3:10 "A man that is an heretic after the first and second admonition reject;"
Titus 3:11 "Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself."
Mark 7:9 "Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition."
Rob, you deny scripture for the sake of your tradition. I stand by the Bible. Baptism saves by the blood of Christ. And Christian believers must be careful not to lose their reward. James 5:19-20.
Semper Fi ! --Dataclarifier (talk) 18:56, 27 October 2019 (EDT)
It is the blood of Christ that saves, not water baptism. Eternal life means eternal life. While we yet sinners (helpless), Christ died. There is nothing you can do to save your self, other than faith in the finished work of Christ. For by grace are ye saved, not baptism. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 19:12, 27 October 2019 (EDT)
1 Peter 3:21 "baptism doth also now save us."
John 3:5 "Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born (regenerated) of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."
I will not debate this further. It is evident you contradict the Bible. A perfect example of Confirmation bias and Fallacy of invincible ignorance. I will die before I ever deny the word of Jesus Christ.
--Dataclarifier (talk) 19:33, 27 October 2019 (EDT)
One flaw: I asked What is salvation? You responded with church doctrine and church tradition, Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 19:49, 27 October 2019 (EDT)
The Bible says "baptism now saves us." That's salvation. Clearly, no debate. --Dataclarifier (talk) 20:07, 27 October 2019 (EDT)
Without shedding of blood there is no remission. I suspect the problem is you do not under stand what salvation is.
Lean what salvation is first, then we'll talk about being immersed in the word, or baptism in the spirit (same thing). RobSDe Plorabus Unum 20:12, 27 October 2019 (EDT)

Salvation

Let's go back to John 3:3,5. Jesus first says,

Except a man be born again, he cannot see the Kingdom of God.

In verse 5 he says.

Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God.

So, what is the difference between "seeing" the Kingdom of God, and "entering" the Kingdom of God? Moses saw the Promised Land, but did not enter. Was Moses saved? RobSDe Plorabus Unum 20:25, 27 October 2019 (EDT)


Ok, let's go to the next level, which only the Spirit of God can reveal:

John 1:27 No man hath seen God at any time
Exodus 33:11 The Lord spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh to his friend

Now, being immersed in the spirit, reconcile for me these two passages, and I'll believe that you are not unskillful in the word of God. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 22:41, 27 October 2019 (EDT)

we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
But we have the mind of Christ.
So, to restate: No (natural) man hath seen God at any time... Moses had the mind of Christ enabling him to speak with the Lord face to face.
Exodus 33:13: Now therefore, I pray thee, if I have found grace in thy sight, shew me now thy way, that I may know thee, that I may find grace in thy sight
Salvation is by grace. You must have the mind of Christ, without which no man can see God (or see the Kingdom of God)
It's pretty simple. It's not rocket science. God never intended it to be a scholarly exercise. It's gotta be simple enough for a child to understand. Just remember, That which is flesh is flesh, that which is spirit is spirit. Baptism is of the spirit, not of the flesh. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 03:46, 28 October 2019 (EDT)


Fundamental Salvation
For the benefit of other readers here, it is evident that you did not read the two links I provided for direct access to the Catechism of the Catholic Church, which affirms your last statement above "Baptism is of the spirit, not of the flesh" (1213-1284 and 1987-2029).
It's pretty simple. Baptism saves the soul. A child can understand that.
Please note: God does not need the truth of his word to be affirmed or disaffirmed by the Catholic Catechism. RobSLive Free or Die 20:23, 14 June 2020 (EDT)
You asked me to answer the question, "What is salvation?" I gave you my answer from the Bible. The Bible answer to the question "What is salvation?" is set forth fully in the Catechism of the Catholic Church as a reiteration of all that the Bible says. The Catechism defines salvation from scripture alone, using abundant citations and quotations from scripture, with literal conclusions from scripture, drawn from the common understanding of the Church Fathers east and west, who based all they said on the literal sense of scripture, the sensus fidelium, sensus plenior and sensus Christianorum of Christianity, faithfully expressing "the mind of Christ", so that what you rejected as "traditions of men" is in fact the teaching of scripture, "and the scripture cannot be broken" (John 10:35; Mark 12:24; 1 Corinthians 15:34).
I can say this because I am primarily and fundamentally a Bible apologist, who just happens to be Catholic. I was raised a Baptist. I know the Bible. I am 72 years old and I have read it cover to cover 82 times since before the age of 12 when I finally "went forward and accepted Jesus as my personal Lord and Savior" and was baptized by full immersion at Grace Baptist Church (Conservative Baptist) in Des Moines, Iowa, in the spring of 1959. Shortly afterward I was appointed by the pastor as one of the "youth conversion counsellors" of newly baptized young teen converts and made one of the leaders of our Youth Group, and actively joined "Youth for Christ". Years later, as an adult, by fervent prayer, and by my knowledge of scripture and history and finding out by careful investigation what Catholicism and Orthodoxy actually teaches (which is not what I had been told they teach), at age 33 the Lord Jesus led me to embrace the Catholic Church as the most biblically faithful Church on the face of the earth. I held to three fundamental scripture passages:
Galatians 1:6-9; 1 John 2:18-19; and John 14:16-17 with John 16:12-14.
I looked for a church that did not come out of another church and teach a doctrine different from the church it came out of. Only one church qualified historically and scripturally. People asked me, "How can you do that?" I said, "Because I believe the Bible. Let me show you." I stand on the firm foundation of the doctrine of the Bible which includes all "authority established by God" (Romans 13:1-10; Hebrews 13:17; 1 Peter 2:13-17). The established Church has "the mind of Christ".
Rejection of scripture written by men who were sent by the Lord, is rejection of the word of the Lord who was sent by the Father, and rejection of the word of the Lord who was sent by God is rejection of the Lord who sent Him (Luke 10:16; Matthew 10:40; Luke 9:48; John 13:20; 12:48). The full context of the teaching of the Bible itself according to the whole of the first sixteen centuries of consistent Christian understanding of salvation through the blood of Christ alone, poured out by the Holy Spirit of Christ (Romans 8:9-11) in baptism with water (1 John 5:6; 1 Corinthians 6:11; Revelation 1:5), was the reason the whole Christian Church, Catholic, Orthodox and mainstream Protestant together, guided by the Holy Spirit (John 14:16 and 26; 16:13-14; Matthew 28:19-20), condemned the credobaptism doctrine of the Anabaptists and Baptists as a doctrine of Satan himself. What they say I say with them. This is my final answer. You will not hear from me again on this page.
Proverbs 28:9 — also 18:1; 20:3; 22:10; 26:12; 27:3; 30:5.
--Dataclarifier (talk) 13:42, 28 October 2019 (EDT)

Was the gospel preached to Israel in the wilderness?

Very well. Was the gospel preached to Israel in the wilderness? Hebs: 4:2 RobSDe Plorabus Unum 13:59, 28 October 2019 (EDT)
Erroneous links have been corrected. My sincerest apology for access error. --Dataclarifier (talk) 16:52, 28 October 2019 (EDT)
So, was the gospel preached to Israel in wilderness?
Remember, death reigned from Adam to Moses (Rom. 5:14). Are you arguing that Law gave life? Or was the gospel preached to Israel in the wilderness?
RobSDe Plorabus Unum 17:23, 28 October 2019 (EDT)
[2] [3] [4] --Dataclarifier (talk) 18:08, 28 October 2019 (EDT)
So, I'll take that as being affirmative. The gospel was indeed preached to Israel in the wilderness. What gospel was preached? the gospel of grace? the gospel of salvation? the gospel of the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ? RobSDe Plorabus Unum 18:25, 28 October 2019 (EDT)
It wasn't affirmative. If you had read the links I provided you would have seen the answer was not affirmative. --Dataclarifier (talk) 18:45, 30 October 2019 (EDT)
I took it as affirmative when you re-posted my link to Hebrews 4:2 above, and a quotation from some Pascal teaching. Yes or no, Was the gospel preached to Israel in the wilderness? Use scripture to support your claims, not Pharisaical traditions. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 18:59, 30 October 2019 (EDT)


Two clues:
Exodus 33:12: And Moses said unto the Lord, See, thou sayest unto me, Bring up this people: and thou hast not let me know whom thou wilt send with me.
John 5:39: Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. Also,
Luke 24:44 These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.
So what are we to conclude? The Gospel of salvation by grace was preached to Israel in the wilderness before the Law of Moses was given. But they could not enter in because of disbelief. Because of rejection of God's grace, and God's salvation, they were given Law. And the Law cannot give life. The Law cannot save.
Salvation is by grace, through faith. Baptism (other than spiritual baptism), i.e. baptism in the flesh, had nothing to do with it.
If you want to dispute this, show me where Moses preached water baptism? RobSDe Plorabus Unum 21:24, 28 October 2019 (EDT)
[5] [6] [7] [8] [9] [10] [11] [12] [13] [14] [15] [16] [17] [18]
--Dataclarifier (talk) 23:59, 28 October 2019 (EDT)
Leviticus is law; Exodus 33 is grace. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 02:21, 18 November 2019 (EST)


The law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.
So, you cited a bunch of texts from the Law of Moses; but that doesn't answer the question. You haven't provided anything to answer What is salvation?, or an understanding of grace. All you've done is post Mosaic Law and church doctrine.
That which is flesh is flesh. That which is spirit is spirit.
The natural man cannot understand the things of God.
You're proving the truth of the Word of God by evading a simple question, clinging to Law and church doctrine, and ignoring the gospel of grace. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 00:26, 29 October 2019 (EDT)
[19] [20] [21] [22] [23] [24]--Dataclarifier (talk) 00:40, 29 October 2019 (EDT)
More church doctrine, rendering the word of God to no effect.
IOWs, Moses set before the people a choice between God's Law and God's grace. The people chose Law (and their carcasses fell in the wilderness).
Rom. 7:10: And the commandment, which was to bring life, I found to bring death.
Rom. 4:15: For the law brings wrath
Rom. 8:6: to be carnally minded [the natural man] is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
Rom. 5:9 having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him.
You're just preaching wrath and law, not the gospel of life, peace, and grace. A gospel of works, 'which is no gospel at all (Gal. 1:7).
The early Apostles had this debate, Ye must be circumcised, the same as "ye must be physically baptized." Circumcision is of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter (Rom. 2:29). RobSDe Plorabus Unum 01:08, 29 October 2019 (EDT)
Oh, and there is no "going forth unto the nations" if you don't know what the gospel of salvation by grace is. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 01:12, 29 October 2019 (EDT)
The flesh profiteth nothing. Let me be more specific - baptism in the flesh profiteth nothing. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 12:04, 29 October 2019 (EDT)

Were any Old Testament figures saved by grace or baptism?

1 Cor. 10:4 all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
Exodus 33: And the LORD said unto Moses, I will do this thing also that thou hast spoken: for thou hast found grace in my sight
Behold, there is a place by me, and thou shalt stand upon a rock RobSDe Plorabus Unum 12:49, 30 October 2019 (EDT)
Next question: Was Job saved? Were Zachariah and Elisabeth saved? Were Simeon and Anna (Luke 2) saved? Was David saved? and Solomon (relates to the question of Eternal security, as well)? And a real tuff one, was Manassah saved?
We know Abraham was saved (Gal 3:6, Rom 4:3) long before there ever was a Law of Moses or doctrine of baptisms. We know righteous Abel was saved, as well, because he understood the necessity of a blood sacrifice.
So the gospel of salvation by grace has been preached since the beginning, long before the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ took place in fulfillment of the scriptures. But we see some could not enter in, because of disbelief (lack of faith).
The Law (or "the letter") killeth. Grace gives life. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 14:51, 30 October 2019 (EDT)
"So the gospel of salvation by grace has been preached since the beginning, long before the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ took place in fulfillment of the scriptures." You say they were already saved before any of this took place.
Either you have done away with the need for Christ by the credobaptist doctrine of salvation by faith alone sola fide, or you have confirmed the doctrine of "baptism of desire" by which all those "spirits in prison" were freed by the preaching of Christ himself because of their hope which waited (they were forced to wait) for his baptism of them in fulfillment of their desire for salvation 1 Peter 3:18-21. Catechism of the Catholic Church, 1260
"Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity."
Hebrews 11:39-40 says most explicitly,
"And all these, though well attested by their faith, did not receive what was promised, since God had foreseen something better for us, that apart from us they should not be made perfect.
They had to wait, because they had not yet been saved by the blood of Jesus Christ and had not yet been born again of water and the Spirit.
--Dataclarifier (talk) 16:04, 30 October 2019 (EDT)
Was Abraham saved?
Rom 4: 1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness, etc.
Cite scripture for your response, not church tradition, church doctrine, Catholic catechism, or any other teaching of man. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 16:12, 30 October 2019 (EDT)
I did cite scripture. My response each time was solidly based on scripture. Church doctrine supports scripture. You reject fundamental parts of the Bible and twist its meaning for the sake of your credobaptist tradition, "a tradition of men", which the vast body of all Christianity in the sixteenth century, solidly based on scripture (on the whole context of the entire Bible), denounced as a Satanic heresy based on violation of the Bible itself. Cafeteria Christianity#Proof texts. And I will not reject Christian doctrine based for over sixteen centuries on the whole context of the Bible and the "mind of Christ" in the sensus fidelium, sensus plenior, sensus Christianorum in all of the passages of the Bible I have cited all down through this page. I am heedful of the warning of Peter 1 Peter 3:15-18. However much you press me to do so, I will not deny Christ. --Dataclarifier (talk) 16:38, 30 October 2019 (EDT)
You haven't answered the question: Was Abraham saved? RobSDe Plorabus Unum 17:15, 30 October 2019 (EDT)

What have we learned from our father, Abraham?

Abraham was instructed to take his son, thine only son, and kill him. Not wavering in faith, Abraham never doubted that God would resurrect him somehow to fulfill God's promise to multiply Abraham's seed as the stars of the sky. Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned (or imputed) unto him as righteousness.

Rom 5: 1 Having been declared righteous, then, by faith, we have peace toward God through our Lord Jesus Christ,
2 through whom also we have the access by the faith into this grace in which we have stood

Where was Abraham ever baptized? before the law of baptisms was ever was given (Leviticus, and elsewhere)? Abraham was circumcised, but circumcision is of the heart, not of the flesh. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 17:39, 30 October 2019 (EDT)


I see you've avoided answering this key New Testament question (Romans chapter 4 and Galatians) now for 4 days. Here's the Answer:
Abraham was saved by belief (faith) in the resurrection. He was justified by his faith, and saved from wrath, and saved from the works of the Law. Abraham was a blood washed, born again Christian. We also now by faith have access into this same grace.
Maybe now you can understand the verses referring to before the foundations of the earth were laid, or In the beginning was the word. or from everlasting to everlasting, or I am Alpha and Omega, or predestined and foreordained, or there is no new thing under the sun.
Do not avoid this question - it is foundational to any man of faith.
Faith is quite simple - it is trust. Trust in God. Trust in God's word. Trust in God over our own understanding and reasoned judgements.
To rely on ourselves, rather than accept God, God's word, and God's teaching, is pride - what St. Valentine and the Catholic church call original sin. It was the sin of Lucifer - making himself out to be God. It was the sin of Adam - rejecting God to worship and serve the creature more than the Creator. It is the sin of everyone who rejects the Gospel of Grace in favor of a doctrine of Law, that by welldoing you can earn your standing with God. God see's rejection of the sacrifice of his son as pride. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 08:14, 3 November 2019 (EST)

Exodus chapter 33

Coincidentally, Exodus means coming out or going out. The Latin root iglesia literally means called out ones, as in God is calling out a people unto himself. Exodus 33 is easy to remember cause 33 is the years of Jesus life. Exodus 33:11 is the gospel of salvation by grace. And 3 x 11 equals 33.
1 Cor. 10:4 all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
Exodus 33: And the LORD said unto Moses, I will do this thing also that thou hast spoken: for thou hast found grace in my sight
Behold, there is a place by me, and thou shalt stand upon a rock RobSDe Plorabus Unum 12:49, 30 October 2019 (EDT)
God also told Moses, "My face you shall not see, for no one can see my face and live" (Exodus 33:18-23). Moses and Aaron, Nadab and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel went up on the mountain, and they did see the God of Israel up on the top of the peak, but only from a distance, not up close (Exodus 24:9-11). Abuse of the statement that Moses talked with God "face to face" has been competently answered by qualified biblical scholars as a Semitic expression of intimate friendship of communion, not a pre-incarnate appearance of Jesus face to face, nor a direct visual encounter of the Beatific vision. These scholars also explain that the "gospel" preached to Israel in the wilderness of Sanai was not the Christian revelation, but the good news in the law revealed to Moses explaining the rewards of obedience "if you obey my word". That message included the promise of a Prophet to come.
In answer to the challenge of reconciling Moses and John – Take a look at the commentaries on Deuteronomy 5:4 "The LORD spoke with you face to face at the mountain, out of the midst of fire." Their answer is mine also. Moses beheld the presence of the Lord, and spoke with Him "face to face", but he did not see the face of God. The scholars have explained all this. I agree with them. The challenge to reconcile Moses and John has been met and answered already. Their response is my response as well. This makes me and them "competent to explain" the scriptures according to "the mind of Christ". —The preceding unsigned comment was added by User:Dataclarifier (talk)
That's your response?
  • Mark 7:13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 15:58, 30 October 2019 (EDT)
God didn't mean what he said, or he was too stupid to clarify himself. He needed human scholars and teachers to set it straight, huh? RobSDe Plorabus Unum 15:59, 30 October 2019 (EDT)
He said, "Except a man be born again of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God." It is you who make the word of God of no effect through your credobaptist tradition. That is why credobaptists in the sixteenth century were condemned by Protestants and Catholics for abuse of the scriptures. Documented anathemas against credobaptism go all the way back to the 3rd century. And Protestants agreed.
Conservative Christian historians and apologists are mindful of this statement by John Eck addressed to Martin Luther, in the year 1521:[1]
"...there is no one of the heresies which have torn the bosom of the church, which has not derived its origin from the various interpretation of the Scripture. The Bible itself is the arsenal whence each innovator has drawn his deceptive arguments. It was with biblical texts that Pelagius and Arius maintained their doctrines. Arius, for instance, found the negation of the eternity of the Word—an eternity which you admit, in this verse of the New Testament—Joseph knew not his wife till she had brought forth her first-born son; and he said, in the same way that you say, that this passage enchained him. When the fathers of the council of Constance condemned this proposition of John HussThe church of Jesus Christ is only the community of the elect, they condemned an error; for the church, like a good mother, embraces within her arms all who bear the name of Christian, all who are called to enjoy the celestial beatitude."[2]
(Compare the article on Hypocrites.) --Dataclarifier (talk) 16:59, 30 October 2019 (EDT)
Funny, I looked in Strong's concordance and can't find "celestial beatitude" or "beatific vision" - doctrines of men rendering the Word of God to no effect. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 08:36, 7 November 2019 (EST)
Did God speak to Moses face to face, as a man speaketh to his friend (Martin Luther has nothing to do with this question). The answer is a simple 'yes' or 'no'.
The next question is: Are there contradictions in the bible? Is the bible inviolate? (Here, scholars, church teaching, and church tradition can't help you. Your response is entirely dependent on your faith). RobSDe Plorabus Unum 17:11, 30 October 2019 (EDT)
The Pentecostal article below is a rebuttal of your position, and is presented here as my response. Jesus saved many people without their faith. That includes babies, Old Testament saints, and all pagans who never had opportunity to hear the Gospel, who would have accepted baptism by water and the Spirit if they had known of its necessity.
"Here, scholars, church teaching, and church tradition can't help you." Devout scholars, church teaching, and church tradition do help. But you refuse to accept it (John 10:25-26). Your refusal is a clear example of classic Confirmation bias. All of the centuries-old consistent understanding of the Bible by all of Christendom based on the Bible is held in contempt by you. Even when presented with an abundance of scripture alone which demolishes the house of credobaptist doctrine as clearly opposed to the Bible, you reject it. Matthew 23:38. I had thought that you were a person of honest Christian integrity dedicated to the truth of the Bible. From the way you worded some of your answers I believe that you actually refused on principle to read the authoritative Bible texts and sources linked for immediate access which contradict credobaptism. Look at the article on Enmity.
Some of the people who read this page when I showed it to them said you were being sarcastic, and are someone who always has to have the "last word" no matter what is said. They told me I was wasting all my time and energy on this page in a pointless exercise of unending futility. They said if you ever change your mind, it won't be because of me. They said just leave it to the Lord and he will deal with you.
I have been patient with you, and firm. I am also grateful. Because of your challenges I have carefully re-read the Bible like the long-ago Beroeans of Acts 17:11, and the fruit of all this is that I have gained a much deeper insight to what it was like for Jesus to debate with the scribes and Sadducees and Pharisees who refused to listen to him even when he cited the scriptures. And I have an even deeper and more loving appreciation of Him as a true man, both fully human and fully God. The result of this research was the abundance of Bible texts cited in context all down this page which clearly support the doctrine of regenerative baptism against credobaptism "salvation by faith alone sola fide". I had constant recourse to the help of Strong's Exhaustive Concordance with its Hebrew and Greek dictionaries of the Old and New Testaments. I will have no more to do with you, as Paul advised Titus 3:10. --Dataclarifier (talk) 18:17, 30 October 2019 (EDT)
So, I'm taking your response to mean (a) the bible has contradictions, and (b) the bible is not inviolate.
Is that correct? I don't want to put words in your mouth.
I never once used the term "credobaptism". The word does not appear anywhere in the bible, as I understand and/or are familiar with it (look it up in Strong's if you don't believe me). It is entirely your invention in this discussion. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 18:43, 30 October 2019 (EDT)
Lastly, your posting below is simply more church doctrine from somewhere irrelevant to this discussion. Spamming the page has not helped any of your arguments; it's more reminiscent of Christ's warnings about other Pharisaical teachings: they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 18:51, 30 October 2019 (EDT)
'Let your answers be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil.' (Matt 5:37) - affirming what is, and what is not, the Word of God. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 19:38, 30 October 2019 (EDT)
One final comment: God is not an intellectual exercise.
  • He catcheth the crafty in their craftiness
  • I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent. Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
I learned from Catholic catechism that 7 years of age is the "age of reason;" by 10 I had it figured out and left the church. God's teaching must be simple enough for a child to understand.
I can appreciate the teaching of the Catholic church. At the age of 8, as an altar boy, I recall a high mass on Easter Sunday, where me, the priest, and 3 other altar boys sat down at the beginning of the mass. I wanted to rise up and perform the service, but the priest signaled to me to remain seated. The Gospel reading that day was from Hebrews, chapter 10:12 stood out to emphasize the point and symbolism: "when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down". All else is extraneous. For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his. (Heb 4:10). "It is finished (John 19:39). I'm grateful to the Catholic church for having taught me God's word, but all the calisthenics and hand-washing is extraneous. The message is simple. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 00:45, 31 October 2019 (EDT)

Back to Exodus 33 (I love this chapter). So, what is the Gospel? Again, it must be simple enough for a child to understand. For expedience sake, I'm going to thumbnail and encapsulate it in John 15:13: Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends

Disclaimer: we all know it's much more but for expedience sake I'm using this verse.

Now, we have to back up momentarily to Exodus 32 (verse 10-32 for complete context). Verse 31-32 Moses says Oh, this people have sinned a great sin, and have made them gods of gold. Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin--; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written.

This is the Spirit of Christ speaking. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 12:56, 1 November 2019 (EDT)

  1. Eck's statement here is supremely appropriate in light of Luther's refusal to submit to the judgment of the Church, the emperor Charles V, and the Pope, and the teaching of Paul in Romans 13:1-5.
  2. Martin Luther. Life of Luther (Luther by Martin Luther).

Adoption (John 1:12)

Let's continue in John chapter 1, verse 12:

as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name

Can an infant newborn without cognitive abilities "receive Christ"? Does an infant newborn, without cognitive abilities, believe on his name?

I suspect once again you won't answer, and just continue spamming with redundant scriptures about wrath and condemnation that you do not understand. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 19:01, 18 November 2019 (EST)

Gal 1:6-9

  • I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and turning to a different gospel—not that there is another gospel, but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to that which we preached to you, let him be accursed. As we have said before, so now I say again, If any one is preaching to you a gospel contrary to that which you received, let him be accursed.
So, you appear to be deserting the gospel of grace. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 11:56, 1 November 2019 (EDT)
By grace are ye saved, through faith, not of works.
If we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to that which we preached to you, let him be accursed.

It ain't rocket science, and spamming the page to hide your embarrassment don't help. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 12:01, 1 November 2019 (EDT)

Like Paul, I am not ashamed of the Gospel of Christ.
I was taught as a Baptist to be faithful to the Bible as the Word of God. As a faithful Baptist heeding all the scriptures I have cited above, and based on the Bible alone sola scriptura, I obeyed and accepted that the Catholic Church had to be the one true Church. "Catholic" means universal, for all people of all places in every time to the day of judgment. It was the only Church not founded by people who had disobeyed those over them, and left and went out from them, and taught a doctrine different from the gospel they had been taught by the Church that they left, and denied that the Holy Spirit had remained for ever with the leadership of that Church, saying that Christ who remained to the end of the world had not remained, saying that He had departed and was no longer with that Church. The Catholic Church was founded by Jesus Christ Himself as His Bride, remaining with her to the end of the world as the vessel and channel of the grace of God given to the whole world as the body of Christ Himself, sent as He was sent, as the Savior of the world, baptizing. The Church is the "Temple of the Spirit", "built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, in whom the whole structure is joined together and grows into a holy temple in the Lord, in whom you also are built into it for a dwelling-place of God in the Spirit" (1 Peter 2:4-5; 1 Corinthians 3:16-17; Ephesians 2:19-22). "He cannot deny himself" (2 Timothy 2:11-13). To depart from the Church is deserting the gospel of grace. The grace of salvation comes from Christ alone through the Catholic Church he founded and sent out into the whole world as "the pillar and ground of truth" (1 Timothy 3:15), "that through the Church the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known to the principalities and powers in the heavenly places" (Ephesians 3:10). --Dataclarifier (talk) 12:44, 1 November 2019 (EDT)
If you have to work to earn grace, it ain't grace. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 13:05, 1 November 2019 (EDT)
Church membership is not salvation. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 13:09, 1 November 2019 (EDT)
Grace is bestowed by Christ through his body the Church and those baptized into him are saved. The Catholic Church saves as the one sent by God. The Church saves because Jesus is God in her as her head and the Holy Spirit dwells in her as the temple of God and it is he who sanctifies her and is the source of salvation, because God is in her at work in her members as members of the body of Christ himself, both to will and to work for his good pleasure (Philippians 2:12-13). --Dataclarifier (talk) 13:12, 1 November 2019 (EDT)
Look, spamming the page with pious sounding rhetoric saves no one. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 13:19, 1 November 2019 (EDT)
The church saves? I don't think even Catholic doctrine teaches that. You're bordering on speaking anathema. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 13:21, 1 November 2019 (EDT)
Catholic doctrine "teaches that" in the Catechism of the Catholic Church, 836-837.
836 "All men are called to this catholic unity of the People of God. . . . And to it, in different ways, belong or are ordered: the Catholic faithful, others who believe in Christ, and finally all mankind, called by God's grace to salvation."
837 "Fully incorporated into the society of the Church are those who, possessing the Spirit of Christ, accept all the means of salvation given to the Church together with her entire organization, and who - by the bonds constituted by the profession of faith, the sacraments, ecclesiastical government, and communion - are joined in the visible structure of the Church of Christ, who rules her through the Supreme Pontiff and the bishops. Even though incorporated into the Church, one who does not however persevere in charity is not saved. He remains indeed in the bosom of the Church, but 'in body' not 'in heart.'"
You clearly don't know what you're talking about. --Dataclarifier (talk) 01:37, 3 November 2019 (EST)
I clearly have the power of discernment - of separating the Word of God from the doctrines of men. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 14:36, 3 November 2019 (EST)
Amputating a few words from Philippians doesn't help you.
Let's look at the context from which you abuse Phillipians:
  • 5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus
We already discussed what it means to have the mind of Christ - that part you left out. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 15:39, 1 November 2019 (EDT)

Analysis

The argument seems to be:

  • The Bible, or Word of God, is not authoritative;
  • Salvation is dependent upon church membership;
  • While baptism qualifies a person for adoption into God's family, it is no guarantee; salvation still must be earned by good works, or at least the sacrificial death of Jesus is insufficient to cleanse one of certain sins.

.RobSDe Plorabus Unum 05:57, 2 November 2019 (EDT)

Scriptural support of the analysis

  • Unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. Jn 3:5
  • He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. Mk 16:16
  • I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. Mt 16:18-19
  • Obey your leaders and submit to them; for they are keeping watch over your souls, as men who will have to give account. He 13:17
  • Take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you guardians, to feed the church of the Lord which he obtained with his own blood. Ac 20:28
  • And his gifts were that some should be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers, for the equipment of the saints, for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ; so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the cunning of men, by their craftiness in deceitful wiles. Rather, speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in every way into him who is the head, into Christ, from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by every joint with which it is supplied, makes bodily growth and upbuilds itself in love. Ep 4:11-16
  • For just as the body is one and has many members, and all the members of the body, though many, are one body, so it is with Christ. For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—Jews or Greeks, slaves or free—and all were made to drink of one Spirit. 1 Co 12:12-13
  • Now you are the body of Christ and individually members of it. And God has appointed in the Church first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then workers of miracles, then healers, helpers, administrators, speakers in various kinds of tongues. 1 Co 12:27-38 (The scriptures are not mentioned here and in Ephesians 4:11-16.)
  • Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a workman who has no need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. 2 Tm 2:15
  • And account the forbearance of our Lord as salvation. So also our beloved brother Paul wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, speaking of this as he does in all his letters. There are some things in them hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other scriptures. You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, beware lest you be carried away with the error of lawless men and lose your own stability. 2 Pt 3:15-17
  • I am the true vine, and my Father is the vinedresser: Every branch of mine that bears no fruit, he takes away, and every branch that does bear fruit he prunes, that it may bear more fruit. You are already clean by the word which I have spoken to you. Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me. I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in me, and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing. If a man does not abide in me he is cast forth as a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire and burned. Jn 15:1-6
  • For he will render to every man according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are factious and do not obey the truth, but obey wickedness, there will be wrath and fury. There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, but glory and honor and peace for every one who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek. For God shows no partiality. Rm 2:6-11
  • You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. James 2:24
  • For it is impossible to restore again to repentance those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they then commit apostasy, since they crucify the Son of God on their own account and hold him up to contempt. He 6:4-6
  • He who is not with me is against me, and he who does not gather with me scatters. Therefore I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven. Mt 12:30-31
  • I any one sees his brother committing what is not a mortal sin, he will ask, and God will give him life for those whose sin is not mortal. There is sin which is mortal; I do not say that one is to pray for that. All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin which is not mortal. 1 Jn 5:16-17
  • My brethren, if any one among you wanders from the truth and some one brings him back, let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins. James 5:19-20
  • I have yet many things to say to you, but you cannot hear them now. When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all truth; for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things to come. He will glorify me, for he will take what is mine and declare it to you. Jn 16:12-14
  • And I will pray the Father, and he will give you another Counselor, to be with you for ever, even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him; you know him, for he dwells with you, and will be in you. Jn 14:16-17
  • Do you not know that you (plural) are God's temple and that God's Spirit dwells in you (plural)? If anyone destroys God's temple God will destroy him. For God's temple is holy, and that temple you (plural) are. 1 Co 3:16-17
  • So then you are no longer strangers and sojourners, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, in whom the whole structure is joined together nd grows into a holy temple in the Lord; in whom you also are built into it for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit. Ep 2:19-22
  • if I am delayed, you may know how one ought to behave in the household of God, which is the Church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth. 1 Tm 3:15
  • Children it is the last hour, and as you have heard that Antichrist is coming, so now many Antichrists have come; therefore we know that it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out, that it might be plain that they all are not of us. 1 Jn 2:18-29
  • If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. But if he will not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every word may be confirmed by the evidence of two or three witnesses. If he refused to listen to them, tell it to the Church; and if he refuses to listen even to the Church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector. Truly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
  • Any one who goes beyond and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God; he who abides in the doctrine has both the Father and the Son. If any one comes to you and does not bring this doctrine, do not receive him into the house or give him any greeting; for he who greets him shares his wicked work. 2 Jn 9-11

Point one of the analysis

Point one of the analysis. From the Bible itself we see that the Bible must be "rightly divided" and interpreted by the "leaders" and "guardians of the flock" so that we are not "carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the cunning of men, by their craftiness in deceitful wiles". In my youth 8-14 I sometimes asked my Baptist pastor to confirm what I thought I understood from my Bible reading because what I found in reading it surprised me and I wanted to check my conclusions from me reading of the Bible alone, and he corrected my errors of understanding, because there were other parts of the Bible I either hadn't read or had forgotten and had failed to take into account. More than the Bible alone was needed. That's why we have Sunday school teachers to guide and interpret the Bible for the children. From age 15-17 Pastor Archie Veltman, Southtown Baptist, Des Moines. Even sola scriptura Christians need more than the Bible alone. That's why pastoral guardians of the congregation are needed and appointed to preach doctrine to their flocks, ostensibly so they won't go astray as a result of their personal reading of the Bible. Paul's listings in Ephesians and 1 Corinthians do not mention the Bible as necessary for the upbuilding of the body of Christ. That's why we have need of "Bible lesson" materials, and seminaries of pastoral Bible training for future pastors and Christian educators. The overwhelming multitude of online Bible commentary sites and Christian apologetics sites by sola scriptura Bible Christians is proof that even they acknowledge that the Bible itself, by itself, is not solely authoritative. Still, the scriptures can be twisted (KJV "wrested") by unprincipled men to their destruction and the destruction of those who follow them 1 Pt 3:15-18.
Your analysis, above, concluded that the argument is "The Bible, or Word of God, is not authoritative". Essentially a correct analysis of the argument. It is authoritative, even according to Catholic doctrine, but not by itself alone (The Cathechism of the Catholic Church CCC numbers 74-141). Whether Independent, Protestant, Orthodox or Catholic, the Bible is always interpreted by the differing Christian groups according to particular doctrinal principles not written in the Bible. For example, no text of the Bible says, "The Bible (Scripture) is the sole rule of faith for the man of God." It says rather that "the scriptures are useful / profitable". 2 Timothy 3:13-17
"while evil men and impostors will go on from bad to worse, deceivers and deceived. But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have firmly believed, knowing from whom you learned it and how from childhood you have been acquainted with the sacred writings which are able to instruct you for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work."
It does not say "the sacred writings which are able to instruct you for salvation through faith alone".
It does not say "All scripture is inspired by God as the sole rule of faith".
It does not say that faith alone is enough, but it says that the scriptures make us "equipped for every good work". "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them." Ep 2:10

James says "You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone." James 2:24.
Martin Luther contradicted this doctrine. He said James is a "strawy epistle" and that he found nothing of the Gospel in it, and removed it to an appendix of uninspired writings in his German Bible.
The Bible is profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, but works are necessary, since a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. The Bible is authoritative, but not by itself alone.

Point two of the analysis

Point two of the analysis. From the Bible we see that Christians are "baptized into the body of Christ" and that "just as the body is one and has many members, so it is with Christ"—"you are the body of Christ and individually members of it. And God has appointed in the Church" several ministries, among them the "guardians of the flock to feed the Church of God which he obtained with his own blood". The members of the Church are all "baptized into Christ", "For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body". "If a man does not remain in me, he is cast forth as a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire and burned." "And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire." Rv 20:15
Your analysis, above, concluded that the argument is "Salvation is dependent upon church membership". The Bible supports that argument, as seen above in the passages cited from the Bible alone. But church membership is much broader than being legally listed on the church rolls of membership in a particular Christian congregation. According to Catholic doctrine all who are baptized by water and the Spirit with the word are members of the body of Christ, and united to the Catholic Church, even if imperfectly, without being aware of it (The Catechism of the Catholic Church, numbers 830-848). Membership in the body of Christ himself extends even beyond the visible boundaries of the Catholic Church, embracing all who have been baptized into his body "unwilling that any should perish" 2 Pt 3:9.
"Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it...Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience—those too may achieve eternal salvation" CCC 846, 847.
And as seen above in the passages cited from the Bible alone, those who do not abide in the body of Christ are cast out and burned.

Point three of the analysis

Point three of the analysis. From the Bible we see that even if a person is baptized into the body of Christ and believes, subsequent loss of belief and falling away (παραπίπτω parapipto "apostasy") from Christ afterward will condemn them to hell (Hebrews 6:7-8; John 15:6), unless someone brings them back to repentance (James 5:19-20). "You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone", "For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so faith apart from works is dead." "For he will render to every man according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life." Rm 2:6
We also see from the Bible in the words of Jesus himself "every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. And whoever says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but whoever speaks against the Holy spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come."

Your analysis, above, concluded that the argument is "While baptism qualifies a person for adoption into God's family, it is no guarantee; salvation still must be earned by good works, or at least the sacrificial death of Jesus is insufficient to cleanse one of certain sins." The Bible supports this argument, as seen above in the passages cited from the Bible alone.

conclusion: the analysis of the argument is supported sola scriptura

Your analysis of the argument is a fairly accurate summary, with some minor provisions added for clarification. Every point set out as the essential argument in the analysis is found in the Bible
(a) Scripture is authoritative when properly interpreted
(b) Salvation is dependent on being united to Jesus Christ and abiding in the one body of his Church as a member of his body (c) Baptism unites the baptized to the body of Christ as a member, but without good works as the sustaining fruit of salvation the member bears no fruit and is lost (cast forth), and the sacrificial death of Jesus is insufficient to cleanse one of unrepented sins and of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.
The Bible supports all of these points of the analysis. What remains is the question of whether or not to accept the analysis sola scriptura, based on all of the scriptural support for it cited here. Use the principle of "Scripture interprets scripture" without disregarding any part of scripture cited here in support of the three points of analysis.
Jesus said to the lawyer (to an expert in the Law of Moses), "What is written in the law? How do you read it?" Lk 10:25-28
He also said, "My teaching is not mine, but his who sent me; if any man's will is to do his will, he shall know whether the teaching is from God or whether I speak on my own authority." Jn 7:16-17
"Ask, and it will be given you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For every one who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened." Mt 7:7-8
"Let the evildoer still do evil, and the filthy still be filthy, and the righteous still do right, and the holy still be holy. Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my recompense, to repay every one for what he has done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end. Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and that they may enter the city by the gates." Rv 22:11-14
--Dataclarifier (talk) 14:00, 2 November 2019 (EDT)


Your citation to Romans 2 here is out of place. Paul is speaking to the unsaved, to those under Law, not under grace. The first seven chapters of Romans is all spoken to those outside the family of God.
What does it mean to be in Christ? (Romans chapter 8 and elsewhere: there is therefore no condemnation to those who are in Christ. This stands in stark contrast to those under condemnation in Romans 2, he will render to every man according to his works. To be saved means to be saved from the wrath of the Law.
I should leave it at that, however this doctrine is supported by the parable of the householder who went to hire labourers in his field (Matt 20). They all got the same pay, whether they worked one hour or all day. The Kingdom of God is like unto the householder who shortchanged the guys who labored all day and paid the bum stragglers the same amount. So no, those who are saved by grace shall not be repaid according to their works.
"So no, those who are saved by grace shall not be repaid according to their works."
You have just contradicted the Word of God, and condemned yourself.
  • For he will render to every man according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are factious and do not obey the truth, but obey wickedness, there will be wrath and fury. There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, but glory and honor and peace for every one who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek. For God shows no partiality. Rm 2:6-11
  • You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. Jm 2:24 (context James 2:12-26.) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by User:Dataclarifier (talk)


It's a gospel of grace, not of works. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 22:51, 2 November 2019 (EDT)
I place my comments here because by context they belong here. You've strung together various verses; most are spoken to the people of God. Roman 2:6 is spoken to lost sinners - people apart from God. By removing my post from its proper context, you are preaching a doctrine of men, rendering the word of God to no effect. 07:19, 3 November 2019 (EST)
I place my original response here because by context it belongs here as my original response to your assertion, but you chose to omit it. You've rejected a fundamental statement of the word of God, rendering the word of God to no effect by your tradition. --Dataclarifier (talk) 16:40, 3 November 2019 (EST)
Let's be clear about who teaches what.
The Catholic Church has utterly condemned the Pelagian "gospel of salvation by works". The Church absolutely condemns the idea that salvation can be earned. It can't. Works make faith complete, just as St. James teaches. "Faith without works is dead. You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.
Anyone who says the Catholic Church teaches that salvation must be earned knows nothing, and is seriously guilty of misrepresenting Catholic doctrine with a gross falsehood against the truth.
Anyone who says that the Catholic Church teaches that Jesus does not save by his blood in baptism through the Catholic Church is guilty of seriously misrepresenting Catholic doctrine with a gross falsehood against the truth.
The Catholic Church teaches instead that salvation is
solely by the grace and justification of Jesus Christ alone by the power of the Holy Spirit through the sacrament of baptism ex opere operato.
Proof of this is set forth clearly in the The Catechism of the Catholic Church, Part Three: Life in Christ, Section One: Man's Vocation: Life in the Spirit, Chapter Three: God's Salvation: Law and Grace, Article 2: Grace and Justification, I-IV, numbers 1987-2029 - citing abundant Bible support, Rom 3:22; cf. 6:3-4; Rom 6:8-11; Cf. 1 Cor 12; Jn 15:1-4; Mt 4:17; Rom 3:21-26; Cf. Rom 7:22; Eph 3:16; Rom 6:19, 22; Jn 1:12-18; 17:3; Rom 8:14-17; 2 Pet 1:3-4; 1 Cor 2:7-9; Jn 4:14; 7:38-39; 2 Cor 5:17-18; Rom 12:6-8; Mt 7:20; Rom 8:28-30; Mt 5:48; Cf. 2 Tim 4; Rev 21:2; Mt 16:24. --Dataclarifier (talk) 18:24, 3 November 2019 (EST)
You're a day late and dollar short. You're already on record claiming that a work - physical baptism - is necessary for salvation. That's what this whole discussion has been about. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 18:36, 3 November 2019 (EST)
God does the work of salvation in baptism through the power of the Holy Spirit in sacramental water baptism which He ordained as the ordinary means of salvation ex opere operato, not man.--Dataclarifier (talk) 18:45, 3 November 2019 (EST)
Secondly, elsewhere on this page you asked, "Where does it say the church can't save?" I responded by saying even the Catholic church does not teach that the church can save. You just dug out church teaching:
The Catholic Church teaches instead that salvation is solely by the grace and justification of Jesus Christ alone by the power of the Holy Spirit through baptism.
To answer your latest posting, you've insisted that the physical work of water baptism is necessary for salvation. Both the Bible and the confused doctrine of men you cite refute you. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 18:55, 3 November 2019 (EST)
You very cleverly distorted, contradicted and falsified the teaching in CCC 819 "Christ's Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation". --Dataclarifier (talk) 19:27, 3 November 2019 (EST)
Read your own posting. It says Christ saves, not the church. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 19:37, 3 November 2019 (EST)
To put it bluntly - baptism does not save. Only the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ saves. All else is another gospel, which is no gospel at all. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 19:02, 3 November 2019 (EST)
To put it bluntly - "baptism saves you now" 1 Peter 3:21. --Dataclarifier (talk) 19:27, 3 November 2019 (EST)
So which is it? the work of Christ or work of a believer who is baptized that saves? RobSDe Plorabus Unum 19:33, 3 November 2019 (EST)
Both: Christ and the baptizer in one body. The sanctifying work of Christ through baptism. "Christ loved the Church and gave himself up for her, that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, that he might present the church to himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish." Ephesians 5:25-27. "He saved us, not because of deeds done by us in righteousness, but in virtue of his own mercy, by the λουτρού water-washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit which he poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that we might be justified by his grace and become heirs in hope of eternal life." Titus 3:5-7. "Except a person be born of water and the Spirit, a person cannot enter the kingdom of God." John 3:5.
--Dataclarifier (talk) 22:22, 3 November 2019 (EST)
Huh? Why is it so difficult to answer a simple question (and for good measure, you toss in washing of water with the word, again). You know good and well that only the shed blood of Jesus and his resurrection brings our salvation. You also know salvation is by the grace of God, and cannot be earned by works. Why can't you just say that? Stop refuting God, and denying God's work, and making the claim that your salvation is dependent on an action on YOUR part. That, is another gospel, which is no gospel at all. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 22:43, 3 November 2019 (EST)
[added later] Why can't you just say that? with the mouth one confesses and is saved. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 08:11, 5 November 2019 (EST)
Three scriptural texts demonstrate that it is Christ himself doing the work of baptism for salvation directly through the members of his Church by what they do in obedience to his will in baptism, which he himself ordained as the ordinary means of salvation.—"Now you are the body of Christ and individually members of it." 1 Corinthians 12:27. "for God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure." Philippians 2:13. "There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call, one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of us all, who is above all and through all and in all." Ephesians 4:4-6. "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the end of the world. Matthew 28:19-10.--Dataclarifier (talk) 22:54, 3 November 2019 (EST) (this edit was prepared ready to post just before discovering at the same time an edit conflict by the following edits by RobSmith below)
Here's a good refutation of the 1 Peter 3:21 citation as meaning you need to be baptized to be saved: [25] --1990'sguy (talk) 22:47, 3 November 2019 (EST)
That is very good. The problem is, it is lost on someone who does not understand what salvation is in the first place.
God does not need our help for anything. God does not need man to interpret what he says. God does not need us to perform a ritual cause Jesus' death and resurrection isn't quite sufficient. God didn't need David to build a house for him. God didn't need Abraham to sleep with Hagar to speed God's promise of a son along. When we do God these 'favors' to help him along, cause God evidently is incapable of performing some tasks, is when we get into trouble.
{inserted later] Another example is Moses: God told him to strike the rock once, but he figured God needed a little help or wasn't clear in his instructions, and in anger gave it a few more whacks.
It is foolishness to speak of baptism when you do not even know what faith, grace, or salvation is. First things first. Let this be a lesson to students. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 23:26, 3 November 2019 (EST)
I was baptized by water and the Spirit, but I didn't do it. Therefore my salvation was not dependent on an action on MY part. You keep insisting that we baptize ourselves and do the work ourselves. No. I did nothing. Jesus did, by washing me with his precious blood in the water of regeneration. Sacramental baptism is done to us and for us by Jesus Christ Himself by water and the Spirit. No Christian, Protestant, Orthodox, Catholic does the work to save himself. None of us baptized ourselves. If you still think baptism is a work I did to myself to be saved you are wrong. I didn't do it. Baptism by water and the Spirit is the supreme grace of God. Pure gift bestowed. No one can earn it for himself, and no one can do it to himself or for himself. It's done to us, not by us. Baptism is not a work of our own salvation. It's the work of Jesus by his blood. --Dataclarifier (talk) 23:38, 3 November 2019 (EST)
Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.” – Baptism now saves you. John 3:5; 1 Peter 3:21. Plain and simple, easy to understand. But you still just don't get it. --Dataclarifier (talk) 23:53, 3 November 2019 (EST)
Ok. Very Good. Let's back up now.
Why do we need salvation? (Note: My question is "Why do we need salvation?", not "Why do we need baptism?"). RobSDe Plorabus Unum 23:48, 3 November 2019 (EST)
Why?
“Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.” – Baptism now saves you. --Dataclarifier (talk) 23:57, 3 November 2019 (EST)
Why do we need salvation?
“Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.” – Baptism now saves you. --Dataclarifier (talk) 23:57, 3 November 2019 (EST)
Why do we need salvation?
God is not willing that any should perish! 2 Peter 3:9. The promise is to you and to your children. Acts 2:39 --Dataclarifier (talk) 00:04, 4 November 2019 (EST)
Does sin have anything to do with it? RobSDe Plorabus Unum 00:00, 4 November 2019 (EST)
Ok, so you told me how to enter the Kingdom of God, but you didn't tell me anything about the need to confess my sins (If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins) Why do I need salvation? What am I being saved from? RobSDe Plorabus Unum 00:14, 4 November 2019 (EST)
The Catholic Church can tell you, all based on the Bible. It's all set forth clearly in the The Catechism of the Catholic Church, Part Three: Life in Christ, Section One: Man's Vocation: Life in the Spirit, Chapter Three: God's Salvation: Law and Grace, Article 2: Grace and Justification, I-IV, numbers 1987-2029 - citing abundant Bible support, Rom 3:22; cf. 6:3-4; Rom 6:8-11; Cf. 1 Cor 12; Jn 15:1-4; Mt 4:17; Rom 3:21-26; Cf. Rom 7:22; Eph 3:16; Rom 6:19, 22; Jn 1:12-18; 17:3; Rom 8:14-17; 2 Pet 1:3-4; 1 Cor 2:7-9; Jn 4:14; 7:38-39; 2 Cor 5:17-18; Rom 12:6-8; Mt 7:20; Rom 8:28-30; Mt 5:48; Cf. 2 Tim 4; Rev 21:2; Mt 16:24.
If you have a teachable spirit, you will have your answers. “Go thou and learn." 1 Corinthians 8:2
--Dataclarifier (talk) 00:45, 4 November 2019 (EST)
(you weren't willing to wait)
I already told you I know it's in there, somewhere. But God's message of salvation has gotten lost among doctrines of men. Do yourself a favor, don't preach on baptism until you can explain what salvation is and why people need it. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 01:23, 4 November 2019 (EST)
Ok, I'll answer for you (since the answer is one or two words and I don't feel like waiting two hours to see you spam the page again with more irrelevant nonsense).
Sin.
Alternatively, some might say the wrath of God, which is equally correct.
For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved. (Romans 10:10, where this whole discussion began). RobSDe Plorabus Unum 00:30, 4 November 2019 (EST)
Proverbs 14:7
“Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.”
Baptism now saves you.
This grace was given to make all men see what is the plan of the mystery of God who created all things; that through the Church the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known to the principalities and powers in the heavenly places. This was according to the eternal purpose which he has realized in Christ Jesus our Lord. Ephesians 3:8-11.
Know how one ought to behave in the household of God, which is the church of God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth. 1 Timothy 3:15
Your interminable argument is not with me but with the doctrine of the Catholic Church. [26] [27]
You cannot win. I have helped you all I can, but you still just don't get it. Now I must attend to far more important matters. --Dataclarifier (talk) 01:28, 4 November 2019 (EST)
Bingo. You got it. My argument is with the Pharisaical traditions of the Catholic church, as Christ's were with the scribes and Pharisees of his day. Making the word of God to no effect, preaching another gospel which is no gospel at all. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 01:47, 4 November 2019 (EST)
Romans 10:9-10, again
if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
  • believe in thine heart - faith.
  • confess with thy mouth - the only action required on your part.

This is true repentance - i.e. a change of heart and change of mind about (a) sin, (b) what God says about sin, (c) God, (d) what God says about Himself. The moment you confess (i.e. vocalize) these spiritual truths from a sincere heart, you become resurrected from the dead and are spiritually born. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 01:08, 4 November 2019 (EST)


Ok. So you deny the authority of scripture. Now all you have is are the doctrines of men. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 22:21, 2 November 2019 (EDT)
All of my citations of scripture prove that I accept the authority of scripture. It is you who have rejected all the evidence cited from the Bible. You have closed your heart to the word of God. That is my final word. --Dataclarifier (talk) 22:30, 2 November 2019 (EDT)
True (all are from scripture). Now go back and re-read 1 Corinthians chapter 2. Then answer the question, Was the gospel preached to Israel in the wilderness? (the term "gospel" is a Greek word which does not appear anywhere in the Old Testament Hebrew). Then re-read Exodus 30-33, and see how (1) Moses saw God, (2) Moses had the mind of Christ, (3) Moses offered himself as a sacrifice for the sin of the people but God rejected his offer, (4) Moses was saved by grace.
ye are not under the law, but under grace.
Now, there are carnal Christians (1 Cor 3:3) and baby Christians (I call them milk and cookie Christians 1 Pet 2:2); then there are meat and potato Christians (Heb 5:14 strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil). Carnal Christians and baby Christians are basically the same thing - they still wrestle with the doctrine of salvation by grace versus law keeping. They think faith is a work or a task that they must perform to attain salvation. But I'm getting way ahead of myself here.
Forget baptism, for now. Answer these questions:
  • What is faith?
  • What is salvation?
  • What is God's grace?
Once we have an understanding of these, then we can discuss baptism. Water baptism does not give anyone an understanding of these key concepts. Spiritual baptism can accelerate the process. But dogged pride, study, and learning can get you there, too. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 00:28, 3 November 2019 (EDT)
Answer these questions above; don't spam the page with own comments. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 07:26, 3 November 2019 (EST)

Dataclarifier: Your inability to address these three questions harkens back to Hebrews chapter 3:

They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways.
For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses.

This is your gospel of salvation based on baptism, they have not known my ways...some, when they heard [the Word of God] did provoke. And that 's what your gospel of infant baptism produces - people who do not know God's word and could care less, and think they are saved because someone performed some magic abracadabra ritual over them at birth - No different than the chosen who told Jesus We be not born of fornication . We be Abraham seed, in their pride thinking they are legitimate heirs of salvation by birthright. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 11:04, 3 November 2019 (EST)


Romans was not addressed to those outside the family of God:
"To all God's beloved in Rome, who are called to be saints. Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ." Rm 1:7
Clarification: The first seven chapters of Romans refers to those outside the family of God; chapter 8 onwards refers to those who are in Christ. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 07:36, 3 November 2019 (EST)
(RobS) "So no, those who are saved by grace shall not be repaid according to their works."
You have just contradicted the Word of God, and condemned yourself.
(He has since moved the edit in which he made this self-condemning assertion, quoted by me here, but he did not remove my directly relevant response, and thus leaving it without a context for the reader to evaluate properly as making any sense.)--Dataclarifier (talk) 16:09, 3 November 2019 (EST)
Then explain the meaning of the parable at Matthew chapter 20 (the parable of the householder). RobSDe Plorabus Unum 07:38, 3 November 2019 (EST)
  • For he will render to every man according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are factious and do not obey the truth, but obey wickedness, there will be wrath and fury. There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, but glory and honor and peace for every one who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek. For God shows no partiality. Rm 2:6-11
Ok, let's digress momentarily. Paul preached a Universal or Catholic gospel (God shows no partiality). The first century was marked by racism (We be Abraham's seed, not born of fornication). People thought they were entitled to God's grace and salvation based on birth. Others, like Peter, accepted lowlife gentile scum as being equals in Christ (Call not thou unclean what God has made clean) yet still had problems sitting down to eat with them. Even Jesus said in the parable of the Greek woman, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel. But Paul clarifies, using Johm 3:16, Whosoever, regardless of race sex, national origin, etc.
You're taking what is a primary Catholic doctrine, that those outside the Covenants of Abraham and David, can be grafted in to the family of God, and perverting it into a universal doctrine of Law, which is no gospel at all. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 09:00, 3 November 2019 (EST)
  • You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. James 2:24
This has been debated to death. James says works are evidence of faith. Nowhere does James say you are saved by works. It's basically a discussion of the practical (James) versus the theoretical (Paul). James is rebuking carnal Christians - people who are Christian in name only - and have not fully put their trust in Christ. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 09:07, 3 November 2019 (EST)
  • Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my recompense, to repay every one for what he has done. Revelation 22:12.
    --Dataclarifier (talk) 01:17, 3 November 2019 (EST)
Yep. To those grafted in, salvation from judgement. To those who reject God's grace, judgement. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 09:07, 3 November 2019 (EST)


We've been over this:
Rom. 4:15 the law worketh wrath
Rom. 5:9 having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him.
RobSDe Plorabus Unum 07:13, 3 November 2019 (EST)

Wrath vs. grace

This point is crucial and needs revisiting.

Those who are under grace are not under wrath. Those who are saved by grace are saved from wrath. This is the doctrine of salvation. To claim that God shall repay all men "according to their works" is not the gospel of grace. It is preaching a gospel of wrath, which is no gospel at all. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 10:32, 4 November 2019 (EST)

A word on pride

It is pride, the original sin, that hinders us and keeps us from the doctrine of grace. Pride makes us believe that there must be something that we can do to aid God in obtaining our salvation. Rather than accept the finished work of Christ, our pride does not let us humble ourselves before the cross. We insert exceptions, "yes, Jesus saves, contingent upon (insert exception, such as church teaching, water baptism, etc etc etc)", rendering the Word of God to no effect through man made church doctrine, changing the unfettered doctrine of grace, which requires us to humble ourselves and put away pride, into a doctrine of law and bring us again under subjection to God's wrath. This is that other gospel Paul warned of, which is no gospel at all. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 10:36, 5 November 2019 (EST)

Dataclarifier says man's word overrides God's word

Above Dataclarifier says,

"The Bible, or Word of God, is not authoritative". Essentially a correct analysis of the argument. It is authoritative, even according to Catholic doctrine, but not by itself alone (The Cathechism of the Catholic Church CCC numbers 74-141).

Essentially, man's word overrides God's Word. This is Pride. RobSLive Free or Die 10:35, 5 June 2020 (EDT)

Debate: Infant baptism

The rest of the debate has been moved to Debate: Infant baptism.

All additional comments directly pertaining to the structure of the main article here and to the sources of information cited in it are welcome here.

All other general comments on the topic of infant baptism not directly pertaining to the structure of this article and to the sources of information cited in it should be directed to Debate: Infant baptism.

General comments posted here on the topic of infant baptism not directly pertaining to the structure of this article and to the sources of information cited in it will be moved to Debate: Infant baptism.

The doctrinal debate postings below have now been persistently resubmitted verbatim five times, after having been moved four times to the Debate page. --Dataclarifier (talk) 13:38, 6 November 2019 (EST)

More evidence those who are under grace are saved from wrath and judgement

  • John 1:12 As many as received him gave he power to become sons of God
  • Luke 11:11 Who among you if your child asks for a fish would give him a snake?

Once we are adopted into God's family (Romans 8:15; this is the real meaning of "catholic" - those outside the covenants of Abraham) we are nolonger under God's wrath (Romans 5:9). We are saved by grace. This is the meaning of salvation by grace, we will not be repaid according to our works. Our works are as filthy rags.

Any other gospel that teaches that God's children, i.e. those adopted into his family, will be repaid according to their works, is no gospel at all. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 17:06, 5 November 2019 (EST)

What happens if you shoot someone on Fifth Avenue? Asking for an orange friend. JohnZ (talk) 17:20, 5 November 2019 (EST)
Well, if you're a child of God, I suppose the same thing would happen that happened to Moses who killed the Egyptian, David who who killed Uzziah, Jeffrey Dahmer who killed 17 gays, or O.J. Simpson who murdered his wife.
Funny, ever think about that? Why did God choose two murderers, David and Moses, to write substantial portions of the Bible (Pentateuch, Psalms, much of Kings and Chronicles, etc)? Why did God choose two murderers to teach us about himself?
I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, And bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent
And I thank him and praise him every minute of every hour of every day for doing it. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 17:43, 5 November 2019 (EST)
I'll spare you my full thoughts on Old Testament God's very stable genius. Seriously, though, are you arguing for:
  1. a kind of Calvinist "once saved, always saved", or
  2. do you actually believe it's possible to lose your golden ticket to Heaven through sufficiently wicked acts?
JohnZ (talk) 19:23, 5 November 2019 (EST)
Once saved, always saved. There was a time I was very skeptical of it, but Calvin convinced me. Anything else is a Gospel of Works, rendering the work of Christ to no effect and making God a liar. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 20:32, 5 November 2019 (EST)
I think King Solomon is one of the best examples, although he probably died miserably and guilt ridden. OTOH, the spirit of God was taken from King Saul, but that was before the spirit without measure was given. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 20:38, 5 November 2019 (EST)
Thanks for a straightforward answer. JohnZ (talk) 21:03, 5 November 2019 (EST)

This should be easy to resolve.

An easy way to resolve this matter is to have a pro-infant babtism section and an anti-infant baptism section.

Giving both perspectives is essentially what was done in the Petrine Primacy article to resolve the conflict.

Why isn't that being done in this article? It seems like such an easy way to resolve this matter.

It seems to me some diplomacy has to be shown by both sides.

I suggest reading these articles on conflict resolution skills and putting them into practice:

https://blog.hubspot.com/service/conflict-resolution-skills

https://www.eaglesflight.com/blog/top-5-skills-needed-to-successfully-resolve-conflicts-in-the-workplace

https://www.helpguide.org/articles/relationships-communication/conflict-resolution-skills.htm

I hope this helps. Wikignome72 (talk) 17:44, 5 November 2019 (EST)

Yes and no. The real problem is Salvation. Look at that article. It's a mess. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 17:48, 5 November 2019 (EST)
It can be resolved. The Petrine Primacy article was resolved. If Wikipedia can have its Protestants, Catholics, Orthodox, etc begin to create an informative article, there is no reason why Conservapedia can't do the same.
It is just a matter of whether the parties geniunely want to resolve the matter.Wikignome72 (talk) 18:48, 5 November 2019 (EST)
Well, looking at the Salvation article, the Intro right now is a big problem - and it's been that way for years evidently. It needs substantial revision. I'm not certain I'm the guy who should begin it (like Peter Strzok, because of my partisan bias). Any help you can give there to get it started would be appreciated. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 18:53, 5 November 2019 (EST)
I have zero time to work on any articles. I am not sure when I will be free again.Wikignome72 (talk) 20:40, 5 November 2019 (EST)

Moses, again

God told Noah, whoever sheds man's blood by man shall his blood be shed before the Mosaic Law. Moses killed the Egyptian, was saved by grace, had the mind of Christ, and saw God.

It's pretty clear those who are saved by grace and have the mind of Christ will not be repaid according to their works. The Law is for those who are not under grace. Any other gospel is no gospel at all. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 13:31, 6 November 2019 (EST)

If you want to discuss any of this, come up here and talk about it. Moses wasn't baptized. Are telling me Moses got tossed into the lake of fire after he saw God? RobSDe Plorabus Unum 01:04, 7 November 2019 (EST)
Dataclarifier: I'll ask one more time: you're a bible scholar. Come here and either affirm or dispute anything I posted in the opening premise. Show some courage, do this in your own words (i.e. the spirit within you) and I'll affirm you are indeed an authority on the doctrine you preach. Right now, you appear to be at odds with both the bible and some aspects of Catholic teaching. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 10:09, 7 November 2019 (EST)

Avoidance

You have said nothing about Helpless babies and sinners. Babies and pagans who have no faith, do not confess faith simply because they do not know and are unable to be saved by faith alone. Your doctrine condemns them ipso facto to an eternal torment in the lake of fire which is the second death (Rev. 20:14-15) simply because they have not the ability nor the opportunity. Your above comments say nothing about infant baptism. That is what this article is about. --Dataclarifier (talk) 14:38, 6 November 2019 (EST)
"Therefore as sin came into the world through one man and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all men sinned—" Romans 5:12. Babies die. All have sinned. "There is none righteous, no not one." Romans 3:10. You teach that salvation is by faith alone. "If you confess with your lips that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For man believes with his heart and so is justified, and he confesses with his lips and so is saved." Romans 10:10-11. Babies who die have no faith, they do not believe in their hearts that God raised Jesus from the dead, they do not confess with their lips, because they cannot confess with their lips, and so they cannot by faith alone be saved. Therefore you condemn them all to the lake of fire simply because they do not have faith, because they are unable to have faith, they do not believe, because they are unable to believe, and they do not confess, because they are unable to confess. --Dataclarifier (talk) 15:15, 6 November 2019 (EST)

Perhaps you don't understand what salvation is, or for that matter the second death. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 16:51, 6 November 2019 (EST)
The whole human race are helpless babies and helpless sinners. You evidently have set a division. What sets you apart from helpless babies and sinners, other than pride? RobSDe Plorabus Unum 16:56, 6 November 2019 (EST)
Does a person's salvation begin before or after they die? Does eternal life begin only after death of the flesh? RobSDe Plorabus Unum 17:02, 6 November 2019 (EST)
Oh, and if you're going to spam the page with blocks of text, consider putting it in Essay: (fill in the blank), and we can discuss it on those Essay talk pages. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 17:07, 6 November 2019 (EST)
Way up there at the start of this discussion you posted:
Dataclarifier: "two links I provided for direct access to the Catechism of the Catholic Church, which affirms your last statement above "Baptism is of the spirit, not of the flesh".
Botomline, if you agree with your own words, I have no idea what any dispute is about. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 17:21, 6 November 2019 (EST)
Or, alternatively, in your fleshly perspective (ignoring Matthew chapter 20 which explains the doctrine of the Kingdom and doctrine of grace pretty well) you think God is some unjust, sadistic meanie who gets his kicks out of shortchanging workers and tossing unbaptized babies into the lake of fire. That's pretty sick, and ridiculous. But that is the Gospel of Wrath you preach. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 18:59, 6 November 2019 (EST)
You teach that salvation is by faith alone. Babies have no faith. "If you confess with your lips that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For man believes with his heart and so is justified, and he confesses with his lips and so is saved." Romans 10:10-11. Babies who are killed and who die have no faith, they do not believe in their hearts that God raised Jesus from the dead, they do not confess with their lips, because they cannot confess with their lips, and so they cannot by faith alone be saved. Therefore you condemn them all to the lake of fire simply because they do not have faith, because they are unable to have faith, they do not believe, because they are unable to believe, and they do not confess, because they are unable to confess. By the requirement of Faith Alone, you think God is some unjust, sadistic meanie who gets his kicks out of tossing unbaptized babies into the lake of fire because they have no faith. That's pretty sick, and ridiculous. But that is the Gospel of Faith Alone you preach. --Dataclarifier (talk) 19:27, 6 November 2019 (EST)
Moreover, the statement in the links provided by me, which you referred to, do not say "Baptism does not save." --Dataclarifier (talk) 19:27, 6 November 2019 (EST)
Babies and pagans who have no faith, do not confess faith simply because they do not know and are unable to be saved by faith alone. It is your doctrine that condemns them ipso facto to an eternal torment in the lake of fire which is the second death (Rev. 20:14-15) simply because they have not the ability nor the opportunity. --Dataclarifier (talk) 19:30, 6 November 2019 (EST)
For the benefit of other readers here, it is evident that you deliberately misrepresented the two links I provided for direct access to the Catechism of the Catholic Church, which affirms your statement "Baptism is of the spirit, not of the flesh" but absolutely denies that salvation is by faith alone (1213-1284 and 1987-2029).
It's pretty simple. Baptism saves the soul. A child can understand that. --Dataclarifier (talk) 19:46, 6 November 2019 (EST)
Are you helpless sinner? What sets you apart from a helpless baby? RobSDe Plorabus Unum 19:54, 6 November 2019 (EST)
All you need is the faith of a child. You don't need bombastic rhetoric, or wisdom and learning. But pride hinders you from making confession with your mouth. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 20:33, 6 November 2019 (EST)
I recall a sermon one time of a preacher who said his kid jumped off the top of a bunk bed and flung himself at the preacher shouting, "Daddy!", knowing his father would catch him. That's all that's needed to be adopted into the family of God. The faith of a child. All else, wisdom, learning, reasoned argument, scholarship, is not required - and much of it is merely a manifestation of pride - i.e. an unsaved nature. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 20:38, 6 November 2019 (EST)
John 16:8 says about the Holy Spirit, "And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment".
God has a history of going out of his way to reach people. Saul of Tarsus is proof of this. Muslims who see visions of Jesus and become Christians (of which there are many[28]) is proof of this. God is seeking people who would be zealous towards Him if converted. The Bible itself says, many are called, but few are chosen.
So the whole "pagans are damned objection" as far as rejecting the salvation by faith alone by Dataclarifier is unreasonable (But I do realize that true faith will have works as per the book of James). As far as the babies issue (or young children issue) and salvation, the Bible clearly says God is a fair judge so we should just leave it at that and let God be the judge.Wikignome72 (talk) 22:01, 6 November 2019 (EST)
Water, throughout the scripture, is a figure for the Word of God. You can't live without water. Water gives life. Scriptural water baptism is baptism by the word, being immersed in the word. Cleansing by water is cleansing by the word. Even Catholic doctrine doers not dispute this. The problem is, Catholic man made doctrine contains many conflicting doctrines, rendering the word of God to no effect. I'm of the opinion that even many church higher-ups will admit this. It stems from two millennium of trying to be all things to all people, different languages, peoples, cultural traditions in far flung geographic locations (Islam and the Koran suffers from the same problem).
No church is God. It's made up of flawed human beings. It's easy to be critical of any church and its teaching (whether Catholic or Protestant), buts what's really needed is compassion. That compassion only comes from the Gospel of Grace. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 22:26, 6 November 2019 (EST)

Faith of child

El Shaddai, a name of God, is taken from Shad, Hebrew for a woman's breast. It's full meaning is something like The All Bountiful One or All Sufficient One, usually translated God Almighty.

While nobody really knows what's going on in an infant newborn's mind, I'm assuming the infant has faith that mommie is going to feed him/her/he/she/it. I'm not saying this is doctrinal, I'm just sayin' based on my own wisdom, learning, and understanding I've come to think this is probably the case. Psalm 82, incidentally, basically says parents stand in the place of God toward their children. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 21:18, 6 November 2019 (EST)

Now, for good measure, I'm going to throw in Hebrews 5:12:
For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.
So now, there is no difference between a PhD in Theology who uses the milk of the word and a helpless baby. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 21:34, 6 November 2019 (EST)
"parents stand in the place of God toward their children" Yes. They save their children by baptism. Just as Paul said Timothy saved those entrusted to him. And James said those who bring back someone from the error of their way save them. And the Church teaches the same, that the faith of the parents and of Mother Church stand in for the faith of the newborn child "while we were helpless" when the child is baptized. The Bible never says that infants were not baptized. Or that the children of believers were not baptized before they came to personal faith in Jesus Christ. Nevertheless, it is still Jesus Christ and his saving blood poured out in the washing of the water of baptism with the word "I baptize you in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit" for the salvation of all who are born again by water and the Spirit who baptizes ex opere operato in sacramental water baptism with the word "I baptize you in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit".
Your doctrine that salvation is only by faith alone, a saving faith in Christ, a faith that you say the newborn infant and baby does not have and cannot confess with their lips unto salvation, the absence of which ipso facto condemns them to eternal torment in the lake of fire because they do not believe with faith in confessing Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Savior because "he who does not believe will be condemned" (Mk 16:16), and condemns them to eternal torment simply because they are incapable of confessing Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Savior.
But while your doctrine of salvation by faith alone in the Lord condemns all babies who have no faith in the Lord when they die and all sinners who never heard the Gospel and do not believe and all grown persons mentally incompetent to understand anything and do not believe and therefore that God is willing that all such souls perish simply because they do not have faith in Jesus Christ, the biblical doctrine that unless one is born again by water and the Spirit one cannot enter the kingdom of God, and that baptism now saves us "while we were helpless" by the water-washing of regeneration and renewal by the Spirit and saves helpless babies and sinners who are incompetent to understand what salvation and faith and sin are, because God is not willing that any should perish. And that is why Jesus commanded to baptize "in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit" to "wash away your sins" and make "a new creature" who is able to come to faith in the Lord and "partake of the divine nature", and why whole households including children were baptized during the first centuries of Christianity. That biblical doctrine is also the doctrine of the Orthodox Church and the Catholic Church and all the Protestant churches that baptize infants for salvation. --Dataclarifier (talk) 00:07, 7 November 2019 (EST)
You just don't get it, do ya? You're just preaching wrath. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 00:12, 7 November 2019 (EST)
No. You preach wrath on all who do not (and cannot) confess with faith that Jesus Christ is their own personal Lord and Savior and be justified by faith alone, which excludes from salvation by faith alone all newborn babies who die and all who have no opportunity to believe and have faith in him simply because they are unable.
The Catholic Church preaches the biblical doctrine of mercy by water baptism of all who are helpless "in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit", including babies, and mercy to those who wished for water baptism but died before being baptized with water and the Spirit, and mercy to those who would have accepted Christian baptism if they had only known that Jesus said, "Except one be born again by water and the Spirit, one cannot enter the kingdom of God." Baptism ex opere operato now saves by the washing of water with the word of prayer. God is merciful to all who are helpless and are brought to him. You damn to the lake of fire all who die without being able to confess Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Savior. --Dataclarifier (talk) 00:32, 7 November 2019 (EST)
You're being a little redundant now. I don't think God or man is hearing you for your much speaking.
Secondly, please stop being so condemning of me. I'm just acting on my faith. (Clarification: when I use the phrase "my faith", I am referring to my personal belief in and trust of God and God's word. I am not referring to any membership or association with an organized church or organized church doctrine). RobSDe Plorabus Unum 00:44, 7 November 2019 (EST)
I condemn a defective and false faith, as did all of Protestantism, Orthodoxy and Catholicism in the 16th century, a faith that they all condemned as an antichrist doctrine contradicting the Bible itself, the credobaptist doctrine of salvation by faith alone to be believed and confessed before participating in the performance of a testimonial symbolic baptism which excludes from salvation all newborns, infants, babies and children in arms who die, simply because they do not believe and do not confess with their lips unto salvation that Jesus Christ died for them as their own personal Lord and Savior and teaches that when they die without believing and confessing this faith alone they are condemned to suffer eternal torment in the lake of fire and have no rest by day or by night. --Dataclarifier (talk) 01:50, 7 November 2019 (EST)
No one believes in God's word as long as they reject this plain and simple-to-understand list of clear biblical passages requiring salvation by water baptism and the Spirit. --Dataclarifier (talk) 02:13, 7 November 2019 (EST)
Show the list to any eight-year-old who has had no Bible training and no exposure to introductory theology and ask her and him what they see and what the words simply mean.
Unless one is regenerated by water and the Spirit, one cannot enter the kingdom of God. John 3:5
Baptism saves you now. 1 Peter 3:21
Go forth and make disciples of all nations, Baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. Matthew 28:19 . . .
. . . and so on all the way to the end of the list.
--Dataclarifier (talk) 02:22, 7 November 2019 (EST)


The thief on the cross who repented was not water baptised, yet Jesus said to him, "Today you will be with me in Paradise." At the same time, I do think people should get baptised AFTER they become a Christian.

Dataclarifier, I believe in the God's word. So you are entirely incorrect in your statement.Wikignome72 (talk) 02:25, 7 November 2019 (EST)

You don't believe in God's word, and I am correct in my statement. You don't believe the Bible. Not as long as you reject what the Bible says is required to enter the kingdom of God. The Thief on the Cross was saved by baptism of desire through the personal word of Jesus because he was unable to receive it but would have if he could have. We also have his word and are required to submit when we are able. If we reject his word we reject him and if we reject him we reject him who sent him. --Dataclarifier (talk) 02:36, 7 November 2019 (EST)
See the article "The Legacy left by Martin Luther, the first Protestant!", by Bob Stanley (thecatholictreasurechest.com) --Dataclarifier (talk) 03:03, 7 November 2019 (EST)
See, there you go with your wrath again. My bible says, "restore such a one" and "a soft word breaketh the bone." RobSDe Plorabus Unum 08:25, 7 November 2019 (EST)

El Shaddai quite literally means, "The Big Boob" "The All Sufficient One" who nourishes us and feeds us. When God said to Abraham, I am thy exceeding great reward, He did not say, "I will give you an exceeding great reward" (a gospel of works). He said, "I" - the Holy Spirit. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 11:46, 12 November 2019 (EST)

The great legacy of the Protestant reformers: A response to Dataclarifiers' "The Legacy left by Martin Luther, the first Protestant!"

Protestantism vs. Catholicism and political corruption

Protestant missionaries and economic and societal development

Harvard University historian Niall Ferguson declared: "Through a mixture of hard work and thrift the Protestant societies of the North and West Atlantic achieved the most rapid economic growth in history."[1]

The article The Surprising Discovery About Those Colonialist, Proselytizing Missionaries published in Christianity Today notes:

In his fifth year of graduate school, Woodberry created a statistical model that could test the connection between missionary work and the health of nations. He and a few research assistants spent two years coding data and refining their methods. They hoped to compute the lasting effect of missionaries, on average, worldwide...

One morning, in a windowless, dusty computer lab lit by fluorescent bulbs, Woodberry ran the first big test. After he finished prepping the statistical program on his computer, he clicked "Enter" and then leaned forward to read the results.

"I was shocked," says Woodberry. "It was like an atomic bomb. The impact of missions on global democracy was huge. I kept adding variables to the model—factors that people had been studying and writing about for the past 40 years—and they all got wiped out. It was amazing. I knew, then, I was on to something really important."

Woodberry already had historical proof that missionaries had educated women and the poor, promoted widespread printing, led nationalist movements that empowered ordinary citizens, and fueled other key elements of democracy. Now the statistics were backing it up: Missionaries weren't just part of the picture. They were central to it...

Areas where Protestant missionaries had a significant presence in the past are on average more economically developed today, with comparatively better health, lower infant mortality, lower corruption, greater literacy, higher educational attainment (especially for women), and more robust membership in nongovernmental associations.

In short: Want a blossoming democracy today? The solution is simple—if you have a time machine: Send a 19th-century missionary."[2]

America's founders were greatly influenced by Protestantism and not Catholicism

America's founders were greatly influenced by Protestantism and not Catholicism. It wasn't until the 1960s that JFK arrived. Is America one of the greatest countries in history? Yes! USA! USA! USA!

Roman Catholic Church, Homosexuality and pederasty

Throughout the 1970s and 1980s, the American Roman Catholic bishops and the Vatican had noted a growing problem with clerical sexual abuse in the U.S.[3] In addition, Ireland and other European countries have experienced problems relating to instances of Roman Catholic priests sexually abusing children.[4]

Catholic League president Bill Donohue declared concerning the scandals of priests molesting minors:

The latest attempt to silence me comes from GLAAD (Gay & Lesbian Alliance Against Defamation), Call to Action and the Interfaith Alliance. The three left-wing organizations have joined hands demanding that the media "ignore Bill Donohue." Their complaint? My telling the truth about the role homosexual priests have played in the abuse scandal.

The data collected by John Jay College of Criminal Justice show that between 1950 and 2002, 81 percent of the victims were male and 75 percent of them were post-pubescent. In other words, three out of every four victims have been abused by homosexuals. By the way, puberty, according to the American Academy of Pediatrics, begins at age 10 for boys.

No problem can be remedied without an accurate diagnosis. And any accurate diagnosis that does not finger the role that homosexuals have played in molesting minors is intellectually dishonest. The cover-up must end. And so must attempts to muzzle my voice. Everything I am saying is what most people already know, but are afraid to say it. It's time for some straight talk.[5]

Bill Donahue published in the New York Times:

The Times continues to editorialize about the "pedophilia crisis", when all along it's been a homosexual crisis. Eighty percent of the victims of priestly sexual abuse are male and most of them are post-pubescent. While homosexuality does not cause predatory behavior, and most gay priests are not molesters, most of the molesters have been gay.[6]

The just shall live by faith: Here RobSmith, 1990sguy and Wikignome72 stand! We can do no other!

As the Apostle Paul himself said, "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast." - Ephesians 2:8-9.Wikignome72 (talk) 04:33, 7 November 2019 (EST)

Amen. Where two or more are gathered in my name, I am there also - that is the body of Christ, the "true church". And we recognize we are all flawed men, but our faith has made us whole. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 08:46, 7 November 2019 (EST)

References

  1. The Protestant Work Ethic: Alive & Well…In China By Hugh Whelchel on September 24, 2012
  2. Christianity Today, The Surprising Discovery About Those Colonialist, Proselytizing Missionaries, January 8, 2014
  3. https://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=26940
  4. http://www.daily49er.com/opinion/our-view-catholic-church-needs-administrative-reform-1.2200659
  5. ATTEMPTS TO CENSOR DONOHUE FAIL.April 1, 2010 by Bill
  6. https://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/03/31/bill-donohue-catholic-sex_n_520187.html

This is ridiculous

Dataclaifier's misuse and misquoting of scripture. He repeatedly cut's and pastes a verse of scripture, then says, "See, the bible says such and such and you are condemned to hell." Well, Mr. Dataclifier, the bible says,

Blessed is he who seizes your infants and dashes them against the rocks.[1]

So there, that's what the bible says about your helpless babies and infants. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 10:26, 7 November 2019 (EST)

"Here I stand, I can do no more" — Sola scriptura response from the whole context of the Bible

There you stand — Sola scriptura response from the whole context of the Bible (this is no spam) — Bible scriptures opposed by all who reject Regenerative Baptism, Infant baptism, and the authority of the Catholic Church:

  • This verse only applies to those who are born of God (or adopted inton his family); sorry, it doesn't apply to you which nullifies the rest of your argument. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 14:59, 7 November 2019 (EST)
  • With our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. Hebrews 10:22
  • The whole church is sanctified by Christ, cleansing her by the washing of water with the word. Ephesians 5:26
  • Be baptized, and wash away your sins. Acts 22:16
  • Be baptized. The promise of salvation is to you and to your children. Acts 2:38 and 2:39
  • Let the children come to me, and do not forbid them, for to such as these belongs the kingdom of God. Luke 18:16
  • This verse has nothing to do with baptism in any context. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 14:59, 7 November 2019 (EST)
  • Verily, verily, I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God as a little child shall not enter it. Luke 18:17
  • Where's your faith of a child? You replace it with doctrines of men. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 14:59, 7 November 2019 (EST)
  • Unless one is regenerated by water and the Spirit, one cannot enter the kingdom of God. John 3:5
  • God is not willing that any should perish. 2 Peter 3:9
  • Take this one to heart - it also speaks directly to those who preach a gospel of wrath and anathema. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 14:59, 7 November 2019 (EST)
  • We are buried with Christ in baptism, in which we are raised again through faith in the working of God, God making us alive together with him. Colossians 2:12 and 2:13
  • To the thirsty I will give water without price from the fountain of the water of life. Revelation 21:6
  • A fountain springing up to eternal life. John 4:14
  • For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—Jews or Greeks, slaves or free—and all were made to drink of one Spirit. 1 Corinthians 12:13
  • Yep. Once you are born again. You don't need to be physically baptized. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 14:59, 7 November 2019 (EST)
  • And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God. 1 Corinthians 6:11 "I baptize you in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit." Matthew 28:19.
  • one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of us all, who is above all and through all and in all. Ephesians 4:56.
  • I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. Matthew 16:18-19
  • It means nothing if you reject God's grace for a doctrine of law and wrath. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 14:59, 7 November 2019 (EST)
  • Obey your leaders and submit to them; for they are keeping watch over your souls, as men who will have to give account. Hebrews 13:17
  • Take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you guardians, to feed the church of the Lord which he obtained with his own blood. Acts 20:28
  • And his gifts were that some should be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers, for the equipment of the saints, for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ; so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the cunning of men, by their craftiness in deceitful wiles. Rather, speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in every way into him who is the head, into Christ, from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by every joint with which it is supplied, makes bodily growth and upbuilds itself in love. Ephesians 4:11-16
    (The scriptures are not mentioned, neither here nor in 1 Corinthians 12:27-38.)
  • speaking the truth in love is key here; a gospel of wrath does not speak the truth in love. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 14:59, 7 November 2019 (EST)
  • For just as the body is one and has many members, and all the members of the body, though many, are one body, so it is with Christ. For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—Jews or Greeks, slaves or free—and all were made to drink of one Spirit. 1 Corinthians 12:12-13
  • Now you are the body of Christ and individually members of it. And God has appointed in the Church first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then workers of miracles, then healers, helpers, administrators, speakers in various kinds of tongues. 1 Corinthians 12:27-38
    (The scriptures are not mentioned, neither here nor in Ephesians 4:11-16.)
  • Right. Get baptized in the spirit and this will apply. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 14:59, 7 November 2019 (EST)
  • I commend you because you remember me in everything and maintain the traditions even as I have delivered them to you. 1 Corinthians 11:2
  • So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word or by letter. 2 Thessalonians 2:15
  • Wow! Where is the word "baptism" or "water baptism" in this verse? RobSDe Plorabus Unum 14:59, 7 November 2019 (EST)
  • Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a workman who has no need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. 2 Timothy 2:15
  • Yep. Let's begin - That which is flesh is flesh. That which is spirit is spirit. God is a spirit....These words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 14:59, 7 November 2019 (EST)
  • And account the forbearance of our Lord as salvation. So also our beloved brother Paul wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, speaking of this as he does in all his letters. There are some things in them hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other scriptures. You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, beware lest you be carried away with the error of lawless men and lose your own stability. 2 Peter 3:15-17
  • It's clear what you are trying to say here. Go ahead, blame the Catholic Epistles of Paul for Protestantism. But who is rightly dividing the word of truth when Jesus (not Paul) said, That which is flesh is flesh, that which is spirit is spirit. You yourself claim Catholic doctrine teaches that baptism is not of the flesh. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 14:59, 7 November 2019 (EST)
  • You then, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus, and what you have heard from me before many witnesses entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also. 2 Timothy 2:1-2
    (often cited by many Churches as support for apostolic succession)
  • I am the true vine, and my Father is the vinedresser: Every branch of mine that bears no fruit, he takes away, and every branch that does bear fruit he prunes, that it may bear more fruit. You are already clean by the word which I have spoken to you. Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me. I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in me, and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing. If a man does not abide in me he is cast forth as a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire and burned. John 15:1-6
  • Clean by the word. Hmmm. It doesn't say "clean by baptism" or "clean by water." Kinda shoots holes in your whole argument. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 14:59, 7 November 2019 (EST)
  • For he will render to every man according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are factious and do not obey the truth, but obey wickedness, there will be wrath and fury. There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, but glory and honor and peace for every one who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek. For God shows no partiality. Romans 2:6-11
  • Go back and learn about grace and salvation before you preach on baptism. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 14:59, 7 November 2019 (EST)
  • You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. James 2:24
  • justified. Justification is neither grace nor salvation. It comes as a result of salvation and obtaining God's grace. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 14:59, 7 November 2019 (EST)
  • For it is impossible to restore again to repentance those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they then commit apostasy, since they crucify the Son of God on their own account and hold him up to contempt. Hebrews 6:4-6
  • Taste of the Lord and see that he is good. Your entire rendition of scripture appears to be that you have yet to taste of the Lord. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 14:59, 7 November 2019 (EST)
  • He who is not with me is against me, and he who does not gather with me scatters. Therefore I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven. Matthew 12:30-31
  • Yep. And a gospel of wrath comes awfully close to blasphemy. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 14:59, 7 November 2019 (EST)
  • If any one sees his brother committing what is not a mortal sin, he will ask, and God will give him life for those whose sin is not mortal. There is sin which is mortal; I do not say that one is to pray for that. All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin which is not mortal. 1 John 5:16-17
  • Like so many other verses you cite, if you are not baptized in the spirit, this verse is meaningless. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 14:59, 7 November 2019 (EST)
  • My brethren, if any one among you wanders from the truth and some one brings him back, let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins. James 5:19-20
  • So, what is the difference between soul and spirit? And which is saved? RobSDe Plorabus Unum 14:59, 7 November 2019 (EST)
  • I have yet many things to say to you, but you cannot hear them now. When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all truth; for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things to come. He will glorify me, for he will take what is mine and declare it to you. John 16:12-14
  • Yep. And the Spirit of truth comes when you are born of the spirit. That which is flesh is flesh, that which is spirit is spirit. Baptism is of the spirit, not of the flesh. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 14:59, 7 November 2019 (EST)
  • And I will pray the Father, and he will give you another Counselor, to be with you for ever, even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him; you know him, for he dwells with you, and will be in you. John 14:16-17
  • Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen. Matthew 28:19-20
  • Do you not know that you (plural) are God's temple and that God's Spirit dwells in you (plural)? If anyone destroys God's temple God will destroy him. For God's temple is holy, and that temple you (plural) are. 1 Corinthians 3:16-17
  • So again, tell me the difference between soul and spirit. James spoke about saving a soul. Jesus spoke of being born of the spirit. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 14:59, 7 November 2019 (EST)
  • For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. Therefore he who resists the authority resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. Romans 13:1-2
  • Be subject for the Lord's sake to every human institution. 1 Peter 2:13
  • So then you are no longer strangers and sojourners, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, in whom the whole structure is joined together and grows into a holy temple in the Lord; in whom you also are built into it for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit. Ephesians 2:19-22
  • if I am delayed, you may know how one ought to behave in the household of God, which is the Church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth. 1 Timothy 3:15
  • Children it is the last hour, and as you have heard that Antichrist is coming, so now many Antichrists have come; therefore we know that it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out, that it might be plain that they all are not of us. 1 John 2:18-29
  • How many years do I have to serve in Purgatory cause the work of Christ is insufficient to purge me of my sins? This is the doctrine of Antichrist. By their fruits ye shall know them. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 14:59, 7 November 2019 (EST)
  • If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. But if he will not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every word may be confirmed by the evidence of two or three witnesses. If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the Church; and if he refuses to listen even to the Church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector. Truly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. Matthew 18:15-19
  • Where do I begin with this one (which you quote so often)? How about this snippet: a tax collector is a collaborator with Roman authorities whom you are commanded to be subjection to. I think you are not rightly dividing the word of truth by not delivering proper context. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 14:59, 7 November 2019 (EST)
  • Any one who goes beyond and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God; he who abides in the doctrine has both the Father and the Son. If any one comes to you and does not bring this doctrine, do not receive him into the house or give him any greeting; for he who greets him shares his wicked work. 2 John 9-11
  • Amen. The Gospel of Grace, not the gospel of wrath. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 14:59, 7 November 2019 (EST)
  • As for a man who is factious, after admonishing him once or twice, have nothing more to do with him, knowing that such a person is perverted and sinful; he is self-condemned. Titus 3:10-11
  • Jesus seems to have gone the extra mile for sinners. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 14:59, 7 November 2019 (EST)
  • Yet in like manner these men in their dreamings defile the flesh, reject authority, and revile the glorious ones. Jude 8
  • These are grumblers, malcontents, following their own passions, loud-mouthed boasters, flattering people to gain advantage. Jude 16
  • Whoever rejects Jesus and does not receive his sayings has a judge; the word that Jesus has spoken will be his judge on the last day. John 12:4712:48
  • Ok, now you are finally get nearer to the Gospel of Grace and the meaning of salvation. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 14:59, 7 November 2019 (EST)
  • He who is of God hears the words of God; the reason why you do not hear them is that you are not of God. John 8:47
    Except a man be born again of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. Be baptized and wash away your sins. Baptism saves us now, by water and the blood.—this is the word of God.
  • Hmmm. I cited Romans 10:9 at the top of this page; how come it is not the article yet? Perhaps you didn't hear the word of God? RobSDe Plorabus Unum 14:59, 7 November 2019 (EST)
  • I warned those who sinned before and all the others, and I warn them now while absent, as I did when present on my second visit, that if I come again I will not spare them 2 Corinthians 13:2
  • There is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. Therefore he who resists the authority resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. Romans 13:1-2
  • Wow. A promise to send me to hell if I resist your teaching. Thanks. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 14:59, 7 November 2019 (EST)
  • He who despises the word brings destruction on himself. When anyone turns away from hearing the word of God, even his prayer is an abomination. Proverbs 13:13 and 28:9
  • This is so tragic to witness, on the one hand a blessing is promised to those who hunger and thirst after righteousness (Matt 5:6), while on the hand Brother Dataclarifer is being so hard hearted and stiff-necked preaching wrath as a way to salvation. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 15:33, 7 November 2019 (EST)

Bring forth the scriptures that say "baptism cannot save"

  • Bring forth the scripture that explicitly states "baptism does not save, baptism cannot save".
    Bring forth the scripture that explicitly states "the Church does not save, the Church cannot save", or that "membership in the Church does not save".
    Bring forth the scripture that explicitly states "membership in the Church eternally assures salvation" (which Catholic doctrine also rejects).
    Bring forth here on this page Chapter and verse, with words "church", "membership", "baptism" (cannot, does not) "save", "salvation".
    Show the Bible passage that explicitly says in any form "born again by faith."
    You can't. I know, because I looked, and tried to find it. "Baptism cannot save"—"The church cannot save"—"Born again by faith alone" (babies who die have no faith). It can't be found. It's not in the Bible. And if it's not in the Bible, the principle of sola scriptura refutes it totally.
    So if you believe in salvation by faith alone you don't believe the Bible. It's as simple as that. --Dataclarifier (talk) 13:23, 7 November 2019 (EST)
    By the way — The Catholic Church does teach that the Church saves. CCC 849 "The missionary mandate. “Having been divinely sent to the nations that she might be ‘the universal sacrament of salvation,’ the Church, in obedience to the command of her founder and because it is demanded by her own essential universality, strives to preach the Gospel to all men.” [AG 7; cf. Heb 11:6; 1 Cor 9:6] (AG is the Vatican II document Ad Gentes) --Dataclarifier (talk) 13:23, 7 November 2019 (EST)
You have clearly demonstrated repeatedly that you do not believe the Bible, because like the original Anabaptists you refuse to believe the whole context of all the scriptures cited here above and used by Protestants and Orthodox and Catholics against them to no avail. If you chop up this one as you did before and contradict even one of these Bible passages, you will prove your opposition to the Bible and enmity to the truth. "Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth" John 17:17.
You will not hear from me again. --Dataclarifier (talk) 13:23, 7 November 2019 (EST)
Really? The bible says Blessed his he who seizes your infants and dashes them against the rocks.[1] Do you believe that? Better yet, are you going to act on your faith and practice it? RobSDe Plorabus Unum 13:36, 7 November 2019 (EST)
Dataclarifier, this is a very unreasonable request. I showed you Ephesians 2:8-9 which explicitly states that one is saved by faith and not by works (and I added that the Book of James says that true faith will have works).
Now in desperation you say: Bring forth the scriptures that say "baptism cannot save".
This is like saying bring forth the Scriptures that say singing songs at church cannot save. Bring forth the Scriptures that say a women having long hair cannot save. Show me the Scriptures that say praying consistently cannot save. This is not a reasonable approach to formulating sound doctrine. Formulating sound doctrine is best formed by using relevant verses that provide the most clarity and using proper Bible exegesis. Wikignome72 (talk) 21:45, 9 November 2019 (EST)
Dataclarifier, Define El Shaddai, and refute that babies have no faith. Or that the faith of child is not necessary to be saved. Or that the faith of Abraham is not necessary for salvation.
Hint: When an infant opens its arms to recieve its mother's breast it is displaying faith. Faith is neither an intellectual exercise nor a 'work' to be performed. It is the simple trust of a child in a parent. RobSDe Plorabus Unum
"Simple trust of a child in a parent" is not the conscious awareness and repentance of sin and faith in Jesus Christ as personal Lord and Savior you teach as necessary for salvation (Romans 10:9-10). Your doctrine that salvation is only by faith alone, a saving faith in Christ, a faith that you say the newborn infant and baby does not have and cannot confess with their lips unto salvation, the absence of which ipso facto condemns them to eternal torment in the lake of fire because they do not believe with faith in confessing with their lips Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Savior because "he who does not believe will be condemned" (Mark 16:16), and condemns them to eternal torment simply because they are incapable of confessing Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Savior.
Your doctrine of salvation by faith alone in the Lord condemns to wrath all babies who have no faith in the Lord Jesus Christ when they die, and all sinners who never heard the Gospel and do not believe, and all grown persons mentally incompetent to understand anything and do not believe, and therefore teaches that God is willing that all such souls perish simply because they do not have faith in Jesus Christ. In contradiction of this doctrine, the biblical doctrine proclaims that unless one is born again by water and the Spirit one cannot enter the kingdom of God, and that baptism now saves us "while we were helpless" by the water-washing of regeneration and renewal by the Spirit and saves helpless babies and sinners who are incompetent to understand what salvation and faith and sin are, because God is not willing that any should perish. And that is why Jesus commanded to baptize "in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit" to "wash away your sins" and make "a new creature" who is able to come to faith in the Lord and "partake of the divine nature", and why whole households including children were baptized during the first centuries of Christianity. That biblical doctrine is also the doctrine of the Orthodox Church and the Catholic Church and all the Protestant churches that baptize infants for salvation.
No. You preach wrath on all who do not (and cannot) confess with faith that Jesus Christ is their own personal Lord and Savior and be justified by faith alone, which excludes from salvation by faith alone all newborn babies who die and all who have no opportunity to believe and have faith in him simply because they are unable.
The Catholic Church preaches the biblical doctrine of mercy by water baptism of all who are helpless "in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit", including babies, and mercy to those who wished for water baptism but died before being baptized with water and the Spirit, and mercy to those who would have accepted Christian baptism if they had only known that Jesus said, "Except one be born again by water and the Spirit, one cannot enter the kingdom of God." Baptism ex opere operato now saves by the washing of water with the word of prayer. God is merciful to all who are helpless and are brought to him. You damn to the lake of fire all who die without being able to confess with their lips faith in Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Savior.
You object that I condemn you for your faith. I condemn a defective and false faith, as did all of Protestantism, Orthodoxy and Catholicism in the 16th century, a faith that they all with one accord condemned as an antichrist doctrine contradicting the Bible itself, the credobaptist doctrine of salvation by faith alone to be believed and confessed before participating in the performance of a testimonial symbolic baptism which excludes from salvation all newborns, infants, babies and children in arms who die, simply because they do not believe and do not confess with their lips unto salvation that Jesus Christ died for them as their own personal Lord and Savior and teaches that when they die without believing and confessing this faith alone they are condemned to suffer eternal torment in the lake of fire and have no rest by day or by night.
No one believes in God's word as long as they reject the plain and simple-to-understand list of clear biblical passages requiring salvation by water baptism and the Spirit. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by [[User:{{{1}}}|{{{1}}}]] [[User talk:{{{1}}}|(talk)]]
You're just rambling on now and not making any sense. Abraham did not confess Jesus with his lips. Neither did Moses. Abraham and Moses must be hell, huh? RobSDe Plorabus Unum 05:46, 17 November 2019 (EST)
In your alternative universe, we are commanded to have the faith of Abraham - which landed him in hell anyways. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 06:33, 17 November 2019 (EST)
Your whole doctrine can be boiled down to this - The sacrifice of God's own Son is not enough to save you. Your blood is still upon your own head. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 06:49, 17 November 2019 (EST)
You misrepresent facts - I never said babies cannot or do not have faith. I said the exact opposite. A child at its mother's breast has faith and love toward its parent, that the parent will love and nurture it. It is this faith that saves the child, and it is that faith of a child that you must have to be adopted into God's family, i.e. "saved". That fact also refers to life in the flesh. Salvation is now, not contingent upon death. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 06:56, 17 November 2019 (EST)
By wisdom they knew not God - once again your ramblings prove the truth of God's word. Faith is all that's necessary, not your so-called "wisdom" in your endless ramblings. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 07:00, 17 November 2019 (EST)
These words I speak unto you - they are spirit, and they are life. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 07:11, 17 November 2019 (EST)
Your own words, near top of this page:
The issue is salvation. And what is required for salvation. The answer is metanoia - repentance - a change of heart and change of mind. A change of heart and mind in your attitude toward God, sin, and what God says about sin. ....
And I should have included this part up front: remainder of Romans 10:9-10, "For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. In all three examples above the "I will" part came out of the mouth.
Please explain to our readers how an infant is capable of this requirement of salvation "required for salvation" which you yourself have defined as necessary to be saved. According to the Bible, all who are not saved are damned to the eternal torment of the lake of fire. You require "metanoia" of a newborn infant who has died, to already have, before death (and after death the judgment), to have before death "a change of heart and change of mind in your attitude toward God, sin, and what God says about sin"—you said "The issue is salvation. And what is required for salvation. The answer is metanoia - repentance - a change of heart and change of mind. A change of heart and mind in your attitude toward God, sin, and what God says about sin." If this is required to be saved, if the "I will" part comes out of the mouth, please explain to our readers how an infant who does not know how to speak is capable of this requirement of "metanoia - repentance - a change of heart and change of mind. A change of heart and mind in your attitude toward God, sin, and what God says about sin.". You made no exception. Your "requirement" ipso facto mercilessly condemns them to hell, and afterward to the lake of fire, simply because they can't do what you insist is the absolute "requirement of salvation" from the wrath of God. --Dataclarifier (talk) 12:15, 17 November 2019 (EST)
Strong meat belongeth to those who are of full age. Unfortunately, you are neither feeding on, nor preaching, the milk of the gospel. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 13:19, 17 November 2019 (EST)
And now explain—according to the requirement of a metanoic change of heart and change of mind—how the milk of the gospel of salvation is given to newborns and infants who cannot understand speech or comprehend what is preached and tragically happen to die before they can. --Dataclarifier (talk) 17:13, 17 November 2019 (EST)
By faith. Psalm 82 says, Ye are gods. A parent stands in the place of God. A nursing infant has the faith of a child. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 17:51, 17 November 2019 (EST)
You said "The issue is salvation. And what is required for salvation. The answer is metanoia - repentance - a change of heart and change of mind. A change of heart and mind in your attitude toward God, sin, and what God says about sin." Ask a newborn what it thinks of God, sin, and what God says about sin. Please explain how an infant who does not know how to speak or understand what is good or bad is capable of this conscious choice of fulfilling what you say is the requirement of "metanoia - repentance - a change of heart and change of mind. A change of heart and mind in your attitude toward God, sin, and what God says about sin.". --Dataclarifier (talk) 18:06, 17 November 2019 (EST)
Let's look at several passages from John, mostly chapter 10:
  • these words I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life
  • My sheep hear My voice;
  • I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them in as well, and they will listen to My voice. (this refers to the gentile church as fully articulated in the Catholic Epistles of Paul).
  • No one can snatch them out of My hand. ("No one", presumably not even the sinner).
  • “Is it not written in your Law: ‘I have said you are gods’? If he called them gods to whom the word of God came—and the Scripture cannot be broken— (refer back to earlier discussion on John 1:27, No man hath seen God at anytime, and Exodus 33:11, The Lord spoke to Moses face to face)
  • then what about the One whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world? (also in John is the word became flesh).
This obviously is only a partial discussion. But to refute or dispute any of this, you have to compare spiritual with spiritual. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 18:24, 17 November 2019 (EST)
You said, "Salvation is by grace. You must have the mind of Christ, without which no man can see God (or see the Kingdom of God). It's pretty simple. It's not rocket science. God never intended it to be a scholarly exercise. It's gotta be simple enough for a child to understand."
No newborn infant is capable of this understanding if the infant dies shortly after birth.
You said, "You must have the mind of Christ, without which no man can see God (or see the Kingdom of God). . . . It's gotta be simple enough for a child to understand."
According to your own doctrine, in your own words, "You must have the mind of Christ, without which no man can see God (or see the Kingdom of God)"
A helpless newborn infant, baby, child in arms that cannot walk or understand the mind of Christ "without which no man can see God" (according to your own words) does not have cognitive ability to understand the gospel simple enough for a child to understand, does not "have the mind of Christ", cannot "confess with the lips" (Romans 10:9), and therefore cannot fulfill your requirement for salvation,
"what is required for salvation. The answer is metanoia - repentance - a change of heart and change of mind. A change of heart and mind in your attitude toward God, sin, and what God says about sin."
Your doctrine requires this to be saved.
A newborn baby and infant, a child in arms, is utterly incapable of being able to fulfill what you yourself say is "required for salvation. . .repentance - a change of heart and change of mind. A change of heart and mind in [the infant's] attitude toward God, sin, and what God says about sin." A newborn infant who dies shortly after birth is incapable of "changing its mind" of "changing its heart" or understanding anything intelligent before it dies. According to "what is required for salvation", that is, the requirement of your own doctrine, this newborn who died did not fulfill the "requirement for salvation...metanoia - repentance - a change of heart and change of mind. A change of heart and mind in your attitude toward God, sin, and what God says about sin."
Mainstream Protestant, Orthodox and Catholic doctrine instead, more mercifully based on the authority of the Bible itself according to the very Word of God ("baptism saves you now"), faithfully baptizes helpless infants "while we were yet helpless" for their salvation, because Jesus himself says, "Except one be regenerated by water and the Spirit, one cannot enter the kingdom of God", and "by the washing of water with the word" saves them "in virtue of his own mercy, by the water-washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit, which he poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that we may be justified by his grace and become heirs in hope of eternal life." John 3:5; Ephesians 5:25-27; Titus 3:5.(Baptism of desire and Baptism of blood are covered in the main article.)--Dataclarifier (talk) 20:28, 17 November 2019 (EST)
Then explain these two verses:
  • the faith of a child, and
  • Ye are gods
RobSDe Plorabus Unum 20:21, 17 November 2019 (EST)
Not necessary. A newborn infant is incapable of your requirement: A helpless newborn infant, baby, child in arms that cannot walk or understand the mind of Christ "without which no man can see God" (according to your own words) does not have cognitive ability to understand the gospel simple enough for a child to understand, does not "have the mind of Christ", cannot "confess with the lips" (Romans 10:9), and therefore cannot fulfill your requirement for salvation,
"what is required for salvation. The answer is metanoia - repentance - a change of heart and change of mind. A change of heart and mind in your attitude toward God, sin, and what God says about sin."
Your doctrine requires this to be saved.
A newborn baby and infant, a child in arms, is utterly incapable of being able to fulfill what you yourself say is "required for salvation. . .repentance - a change of heart and change of mind. A change of heart and mind in [the infant's] attitude toward God, sin, and what God says about sin." --Dataclarifier (talk) 20:28, 17 November 2019 (EST)
Like newborn infants, long for the pure spiritual milk, that by it you may grow up into salvation— 1 Peter 2:2
says nothing of water baptism What your doctrine is distinctly lacking is, a desire for pure spiritual milk. Your doctrine is grounded and focused on condemnation - the threat of hell (which of course, is no gospel at all). RobSDe Plorabus Unum 20:36, 17 November 2019 (EST)
(A) You can't tell me what salvation is.
(B) You can't tell me how to find salvation.
(C) All you preach is condemnation, wrath, and judgement - which is no gospel at all. And you base it on the doctrines of men. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 20:42, 17 November 2019 (EST)
Illustration: "A helpless newborn infant, baby, child in arms that cannot walk or understand the mind of Christ "without which no man can see God" does not have cognitive ability to understand." Revert back to the scripture, quoted twice now:
the world by wisdom knew not God.
The Bible specifically says you cannot know God by your cognitive abilities. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 20:56, 17 November 2019 (EST)
And if you think that sounds crazy, you are just exercising Pride - the original sin. God has chosen the foolish things of this world to confound the wise. Ye must become as little children. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 20:59, 17 November 2019 (EST)
Praise God! You're getting baptized in the Spirit now! Today, if you will hear his voice, harden not your hearts... RobSDe Plorabus Unum 21:06, 17 November 2019 (EST)

Cruel doctrine

A newborn infant cannot fulfill your requirement for salvation according to your own words,
"what is required for salvation. The answer is metanoia - repentance - a change of heart and change of mind. A change of heart and mind in your attitude toward God, sin, and what God says about sin."
Your requirement of metanoia with a change of mind and heart and a conscious understanding of all these things "so simple a child can understand" condemns to hell and the lake of fire every uncomprehending baby that cannot understand and has died within an hour of birth, simply because it had no personal conscious faith in Jesus Christ as personal Lord and Savior and did not understand and come to "metanoia - repentance - a change of heart and change of mind. A change of heart and mind in your attitude toward God, sin, and what God says about sin"—what you say (in your own words) "is required for salvation".
The Catholic Church condemns such a monstrous doctrine of cruelty, the legalistic requiring of a helpless newborn what the child is utterly incompetent to do and cannot fulfill, and by holding to a false doctrine condemned as "antichrist" deliberately depriving them of the salvation of their souls by the water-washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit when they are infants and most at risk of death.
Whenever possible, since the first century, the Christian Church east and west baptizes by regeneration through water baptism all infants brought to the "laver of regeneration" because they were conceived in the original sin of Adam, since in Adam all die, and death passed to all, since all have sinned, and there is none righteous, no not one. Infants are baptized by water and the Spirit without your requirement of conscious understanding and metanoia and a change of heart and mind in their attitude toward God, sin and what God says about sin. The Church freely baptizes the uncomprehending infant for salvation unto justification, freely, as an act of mercy commanded by the Lord himself (Matthew 28:19-20; Mark 16:16) precisely because newborn infants and babies have no capacity for what you have said is required for salvation, and simply because at this time in their lives they cannot personally resist or place any personal obstacle in the way of the grace of the sacrament "poured out upon" them.
In stark contrast to your requirement of metanoia, a change of mind and a change of heart in the newborn's attitude toward God, sin, and what God says about sin, in stark contrast to that requirement, all the Church really requires is the simple act of "the washing of water with the word", which ex opere operato in the very doing of the act ordained by Christ saves them "in virtue of his own mercy, by the water-washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit, which he poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that we may be justified by his grace and become heirs in hope of eternal life" because Jesus himself said, "Except one be regenerated by water and the Spirit, one cannot enter the kingdom of God". Ephesians 5:25-27; Titus 3:5; John 3:5.
--Dataclarifier (talk) 00:06, 18 November 2019 (EST)

They do in their heart alway err, and have not known my ways
My sheep hear my voice.
RobSDe Plorabus Unum 00:15, 18 November 2019 (EST)

Amen! If you won't hear the Bible, there is no hope for you. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by User:Dataclarifier (talk)

Again, condemnation. That's all you preach. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 01:22, 18 November 2019 (EST)
Let me give you one clue: salvation is the exact opposite of condemnation.
There is therefore no condemnation to them who are in Christ
I notice you end your latest post with more condemnation: "Rejection of the Word of God". Are you in Christ? RobSDe Plorabus Unum 01:32, 18 November 2019 (EST)

I can't let this subheading go - calling the Gospel of Grace cruel - without an appropriate scriptural response.

Romans 2:4: Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?

Think about it. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 21:22, 2 December 2019 (EST)

I've posted the word of God, below:

Authoritative scripture
  • He who despises the word brings destruction on himself. When anyone turns away from hearing the word of God, even his prayer is an abomination. Proverbs 13:13 and 28:9
  • Water, here in spiritual language, mean "the word". RobSDe Plorabus Unum 09:11, 18 November 2019 (EST)
  • He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. Mark 16:16
  • Note: the verse does not say "not baptized."
"Redun. See above. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 09:11, 18 November 2019 (EST)
  • This is he who came by water and blood, Jesus Christ, not with the water only but with the water and the blood. 1 John 5:6
  • Again, water = word, unless you're speaking of the amniotic sack, which likewise shoots holes in your whole theory. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 09:11, 18 November 2019 (EST)
  • There are three witnesses, the Spirit, the water, and the blood; and these three agree. 1 John 5:8
  • Jesus saves us by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit. Titus 3:5
  • Go forth and make disciples of all nations, Baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. Matthew 28:19
  • baptizing them with the word = immersing them in the word. These words I speak unto you, they are spirit and they are life. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 09:11, 18 November 2019 (EST)
  • With our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. Hebrews 10:22
  • evil conscience. There is therefore no condemnation to them that are in Christ. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 09:11, 18 November 2019 (EST)
  • The whole church is sanctified by Christ, cleansing her by the washing of water with the word. Ephesians 5:26
  • Right. Only Christ washes away sins, not you. Be immersed in the word. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 09:11, 18 November 2019 (EST)
  • Be baptized. The promise of salvation is to you and to your children. Acts 2:38 and 2:39
  • Be immersed in the word.
  • Let the children come to me, and do not forbid them, for to such as these belongs the kingdom of God. Luke 18:16
  • Historically, Roman Catholic doctrine inserts this verse here to pitch a gospel of works, which is no gospel at all.
  • Verily, verily, I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God as a little child shall not enter it. Luke 18:17
  • Read this verse and study it. He is speaking to adults, not children. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 09:11, 18 November 2019 (EST)
  • Unless one is regenerated by water and the Spirit, one cannot enter the kingdom of God. John 3:5
  • regenerated by water = word
  • While a message of hope, in this context it is being used by the poster as a message of condemnation. Beware ye scribes and Pharisees. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 09:11, 18 November 2019 (EST)

  • We are buried with Christ in baptism, in which we are raised again through faith in the working of God, God making us alive together with him. Colossians 2:12 and 2:13
  • Here, the poster faces a real problem; (a) he argues that infant water baptism is figurative, while (b) also quoting baptism saves you now, but then (c) denies salvation in the flesh and claims it only applies to an afterlife. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 09:11, 18 November 2019 (EST)
Let's break it down:
  • buried with Christ in baptism - obvious use of figurative language if you are speaking of water baptism;
  • in which we are raised again through faith - in spiritual language we are resurrected to life through faith;
  • in the working of God - the finished work of Christ on the cross (John 19:30, Hebrews 4:10)
  • God making us alive together with him - the proper interpretation of 1 Peter 3:21, baptism saves you now.
What also may be helpful is Hebrews 4:2 - the word preached did not profit them (Israel in the wilderness), not being mixed with faith in them that heard it; to reiterate, the word not mixed with faith led to condemnation and judgement.
  • faith cometh by hearing
  • the faith of a child - Jesus is specifically speaking to unsaved adults, not children, as you repeatedly misuse these verses as core to your doctrine;
  • He that has ears to hear, let him hear, just make sure it is mixed with faith, i.e. trust in God's word (the faith of a child; lay down the wisdom of this world). RobSDe Plorabus Unum 09:53, 18 November 2019 (EST)

  • To the thirsty I will give water without price from the fountain of the water of life. Revelation 21:6
  • A fountain springing up to eternal life. John 4:14
  • For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—Jews or Greeks, slaves or free—and all were made to drink of one Spirit. 1 Corinthians 12:13

  • For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. Galatians 3:27
  • put on Christ - a kippurim or atonement - the blood of Christ, not H20. Abel offered a blood sacrifice. Cain offered a bloodless sacrifice, and was rejected. Sorry to use a sledge hammer, but you spam whole pages preaching that a bloodless sacrifice (H20) can save. Ye must be born from above. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 10:48, 18 November 2019 (EST)

Any preaching on salvation that ignores these verses is a good example of Cafeteria Christianity and ofconfirmation bias.
The Body of Christ, the Savior of the world
  • Jesus said to them again, "Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you." John 20:21
  • And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son as the Savior of the world. 1 John 4:14
  • I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. Matthew 16:18-19
  • Obey your leaders and submit to them; for they are keeping watch over your souls, as men who will have to give account. Hebrews 13:17
  • Take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you guardians, to feed the church of the Lord which he obtained with his own blood. Acts 20:28
  • And his gifts were that some should be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers, for the equipment of the saints, for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ; so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the cunning of men, by their craftiness in deceitful wiles. Rather, speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in every way into him who is the head, into Christ, from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by every joint with which it is supplied, makes bodily growth and upbuilds itself in love. Ephesians 4:11-16
    (The scriptures are not mentioned, neither here nor in 1 Corinthians 12:27-38.)
  • For just as the body is one and has many members, and all the members of the body, though many, are one body, so it is with Christ. For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—Jews or Greeks, slaves or free—and all were made to drink of one Spirit. 1 Corinthians 12:12-13
  • Now you are the body of Christ and individually members of it. And God has appointed in the Church first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then workers of miracles, then healers, helpers, administrators, speakers in various kinds of tongues. 1 Corinthians 12:27-38
    (The scriptures are not mentioned, neither here nor in Ephesians 4:11-16.)
  • I commend you because you remember me in everything and maintain the traditions even as I have delivered them to you. 1 Corinthians 11:2
  • So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word or by letter. 2 Thessalonians 2:15
  • Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a workman who has no need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. 2 Timothy 2:15
  • And account the forbearance of our Lord as salvation. So also our beloved brother Paul wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, speaking of this as he does in all his letters. There are some things in them hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other scriptures. You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, beware lest you be carried away with the error of lawless men and lose your own stability. 2 Peter 3:15-17
  • You then, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus, and what you have heard from me before many witnesses entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also. 2 Timothy 2:1-2
    (often cited by many Churches as support for apostolic succession)
  • I am the true vine, and my Father is the vinedresser: Every branch of mine that bears no fruit, he takes away, and every branch that does bear fruit he prunes, that it may bear more fruit. You are already clean by the word which I have spoken to you. Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me. I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in me, and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing. If a man does not abide in me he is cast forth as a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire and burned. John 15:1-6
  • For he will render to every man according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are factious and do not obey the truth, but obey wickedness, there will be wrath and fury. There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, but glory and honor and peace for every one who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek. For God shows no partiality. Romans 2:6-11
  • You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. James 2:24
  • For it is impossible to restore again to repentance those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they then commit apostasy, since they crucify the Son of God on their own account and hold him up to contempt. Hebrews 6:4-6
  • He who is not with me is against me, and he who does not gather with me scatters. Therefore I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven. Matthew 12:30-31
  • If any one sees his brother committing what is not a mortal sin, he will ask, and God will give him life for those whose sin is not mortal. There is sin which is mortal; I do not say that one is to pray for that. All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin which is not mortal. 1 John 5:16-17
  • My brethren, if any one among you wanders from the truth and some one brings him back, let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins. James 5:19-20
  • I have yet many things to say to you, but you cannot hear them now. When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all truth; for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things to come. He will glorify me, for he will take what is mine and declare it to you. John 16:12-14
  • And I will pray the Father, and he will give you another Counselor, to be with you for ever, even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him; you know him, for he dwells with you, and will be in you. John 14:16-17
  • Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen. Matthew 28:19-20
  • Do you not know that you (plural) are God's temple and that God's Spirit dwells in you (plural)? If anyone destroys God's temple God will destroy him. For God's temple is holy, and that temple you (plural) are. 1 Corinthians 3:16-17
  • For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. Therefore he who resists the authority resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. Romans 13:1-2
  • Be subject for the Lord's sake to every human institution. 1 Peter 2:13
  • So then you are no longer strangers and sojourners, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, in whom the whole structure is joined together and grows into a holy temple in the Lord; in whom you also are built into it for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit. Ephesians 2:19-22
  • know how one ought to behave in the household of God, which is the Church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth. 1 Timothy 3:15
  • Children it is the last hour, and as you have heard that Antichrist is coming, so now many Antichrists have come; therefore we know that it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out, that it might be plain that they all are not of us. 1 John 2:18-29
  • If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. But if he will not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every word may be confirmed by the evidence of two or three witnesses. If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the Church; and if he refuses to listen even to the Church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector. Truly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. Matthew 18:15-19

Authority

  • There is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. Therefore he who resists the authority resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. Romans 13:1-2
  • Now here the argument is that Matthew 16:18 instituted an executive authority in a Pope and Roman curia or bureaucracy; whereas in context this "authority" "instituted by God", which we are commanded to be in subjection to and obey, can just as easily be applied to an apartment house manager or homeowners association. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 12:55, 18 November 2019 (EST)
  • He who despises the word brings destruction on himself. When anyone turns away from hearing the word of God, even his prayer is an abomination. Proverbs 13:13 and 28:9
  • Any one who goes beyond and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God; he who abides in the doctrine has both the Father and the Son. If any one comes to you and does not bring this doctrine, do not receive him into the house or give him any greeting; for he who greets him shares his wicked work. 2 John 9-11
  • Doctrine of Christ. What is the doctrine of Christ? Begin at Exodus 33 (actually, you could even begin earlier). Explain, not using fleshly wisdom, as is your habit. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 13:01, 18 November 2019 (EST)
  • As for a man who is factious, after admonishing him once or twice, have nothing more to do with him, knowing that such a person is perverted and sinful; he is self-condemned. Titus 3:10-11
  • More condemnation. Where is the Good News of the Gospel of Salvation and saving grace? RobSDe Plorabus Unum 13:08, 18 November 2019 (EST)
  • Yet in like manner these men in their dreamings defile the flesh, reject authority, and revile the glorious ones. Jude 8
  • These are grumblers, malcontents, following their own passions, loud-mouthed boasters, flattering people to gain advantage. Jude 16
Rejection of the Word of God
  • Whoever rejects Jesus and does not receive his sayings has a judge; the word that Jesus has spoken will be his judge on the last day. John 12:4712:48
  • He who is of God hears the words of God; the reason why you do not hear them is that you are not of God. John 8:47
    Except a man be born again of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. Be baptized and wash away your sins. Baptism saves us now, by water and the blood.—this is the word of God.
  • I warned those who sinned before and all the others, and I warn them now while absent, as I did when present on my second visit, that if I come again I will not spare them 2 Corinthians 13:2
  • He who despises the word brings destruction on himself. When anyone turns away from hearing the word of God, even his prayer is an abomination. Proverbs 13:13 and 28:9
    --Dataclarifier (talk) 00:45, 18 November 2019 (EST)
  • Take heed how you hear; the measure you give will be the measure you get, and still more will be given you. Mark 4:24 —The preceding unsigned comment was added by [[User:{{{1}}}|{{{1}}}]] [[User talk:{{{1}}}|(talk)]]
  • Grace (See Matt chap 20, the parable of the householder). RobSDe Plorabus Unum 18:49, 18 November 2019 (EST)
  • To him who has will more be given, and he will have abundance; but from him who has not, even what he has will be taken away. Matthew 13:12; Mark 4:25
    --Dataclarifier (talk) 18:27, 18 November 2019 (EST)
  • Law and judgement, for those not in (adopted into) God's family. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 18:49, 18 November 2019 (EST)
when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God. 2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified (ahem, not water baptism)....4 And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power: - Paul
RobSDe Plorabus Unum 19:12, 18 November 2019 (EST)
Hearing, they hear not; seeing, they see not. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 01:22, 18 November 2019 (EST)

:Dataclarifer: Answer the question I asked way long ago, which you seemed to answer affirmatively yet hedged a little bit later: Was the gospel preached to Israel in the wilderness? Your answer determines whether or not you reject the Word of God; if you say "No", all the crap you posted about rejecting the Word of God will come upon you (per your own words). If you say "yes," we can move forward with this discussion. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 01:44, 18 November 2019 (EST)

For you, my friend, salvation is a real nail-biter - cause you don't know whether or not you are saved. You have to wait til you die (after you jump thru a bunch of hoops in the flesh) and face judgement. Evidently you haven't read who faces judgement, nor accepted the simple truth who is saved from judgement. Again, by admitting you face judgement, you condemn yourself.
There is therefore no condemnation to them that are in Christ
Moving on. Why would somebody reject (or "neglect") so great a salvation? Perhaps to justify sin? RobSDe Plorabus Unum 02:06, 18 November 2019 (EST)
"But they could not withstand the wisdom and the spirit with which he spoke." Acts 6:10.
"[Persons] who think they will attain salvation on account of the merits of Christ alone without applying His merits or seeking them and exercising them for the benefit of both themselves and others, sin by presumption. James 2:14-26; Luke 12:41-48; 19:12-26; Matthew 25."
(from the Conservapedia article Presumption.) --Dataclarifier (talk) 00:34, 19 November 2019 (EST)
You said—
For you, my friend, salvation is a real nail-biter - cause you don't know whether or not you are saved. You have to wait til you die (after you jump thru a bunch of hoops in the flesh) and face judgement. Evidently you haven't read who faces judgement, nor accepted the simple truth who is saved from judgement. Again, by admitting you face judgement, you condemn yourself.
There is therefore no condemnation to them that are in Christ
.
You cited the first part of Paul's Christian doctrine in Romans 8:1, but carefully omitted to include the second part of the verse, which is conditional: "who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit", the same Holy Spirit that is the divine Author of the Bible without any exception, for "ALL scripture is inspired by God and is profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction..., the same Holy Spirit who through Peter says, "Baptism now saves you". As he says elsewhere: "inflicting vengeance upon those who do not know God and upon those who do not obey the Gospel of our Lord Jesus", the same Jesus who said, "Except a man be born again by water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God", who said, "Why do you call me Lord, Lord, and not do what I say?"
Perhaps the Word of the Lord Himself will persuade you, as it finally persuaded me, that the Baptist doctrine of eternal assurance is a dangerously presumptuous error (especially when I also found out that it was founded by those who disobeyed those who were over them in the Lord Heb. 13:17, and went out from the church they had belonged to 1 John 2:18-19, and taught a doctrine different from the one they had originally received Gal. 1:6-9):
1 Corinthians 10:12 "Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall."
2 Peter 3:17 "beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness."
Ezekiel 18:24 "But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die."
Romans 11:19-22 "Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in. Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off." (boldface emphasis added)
Hebrews 6:4-8, 11-12 "For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God: But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned. ... And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end: That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises."
1 Peter 2:15-16 " For so is the will of God, that with well doing ye may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men: As free, and not using your liberty for a cloke of maliciousness, but as the servants of God."
2 Peter 2:18-22 "For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error. While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage. For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire."
Jude 3-4, 8, 12-13, 16-19 "Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints. For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ. ... Likewise also these filthy dreamers defile the flesh, despise authority, and speak evil of dignities. ... These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots; Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever. ... These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaketh great swelling words, having men's persons in admiration because of advantage. But, beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ; How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts. These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit."
Jude 8 and 16-19 was seen as especially applicable to Martin Luther because of his polemic against the hierarchy of the Catholic Church, his rejection of their authority, and his doctrine of Christian freedom and unconditional salvation; see his pamphlet On the Babylonian Captivity of the Church and the Catholic document of Pope Leo X, the papal bull Exsurge Domini Condemning the Errors of Martin Luther.
1 Thessalonians 4:3-8 "For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication: That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour; Not in the lust of concupiscence, even as the Gentiles which know not God: That no man go beyond and defraud his brother in any matter: because that the Lord is the avenger of all such, as we also have forewarned you and testified. For God hath not called us unto uncleanness, but unto holiness. He therefore that despiseth, despiseth not man, but God, who hath also given unto us his holy Spirit."
Matthew 7:21-23; 25:14-46 "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." ... "For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods. And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one; to every man according to his several ability; and straightway took his journey. Then he that had received the five talents went and traded with the same, and made them other five talents. And likewise he that had received two, he also gained other two. But he that had received one went and digged in the earth, and hid his lord's money. After a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and reckoneth with them. And so he that had received five talents came and brought other five talents, saying, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me five talents: behold, I have gained beside them five talents more. His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord. He also that had received two talents came and said, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me two talents: behold, I have gained two other talents beside them. His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord. Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed: And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine. His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed: Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury. Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents. For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath. And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal." (He does not ask them what they believed; he does not ask them if they abstained from alcoholic drinks, read the Bible, prayed, and went to church.)
James 2:14-26 and 1 John 3:17-18 "What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way? For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also." ... "But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him? My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth."
Compare Romans 8:1 with 1 John 3:4-10.
"There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." (Yet those Christians who were saved by faith, but afterward act unrighteously by freely practicing sin are condemned.)
"Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin. Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother." (boldface emphasis added)
See Luke 13:6-9; 19:12-26.
"He spake also this parable; A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard; and he came and sought fruit thereon, and found none. Then said he unto the dresser of his vineyard, Behold, these three years I come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and find none: cut it down; why cumbereth it the ground? And he answering said unto him, Lord, let it alone this year also, till I shall dig about it, and dung it: And if it bear fruit, well: and if not, then after that thou shalt cut it down." ... "He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return. And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them, Occupy till I come. But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying, We will not have this man to reign over us. And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom, then he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading. Then came the first, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained ten pounds. And he said unto him, Well, thou good servant: because thou hast been faithful in a very little, have thou authority over ten cities. And the second came, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained five pounds. And he said likewise to him, Be thou also over five cities. And another came, saying, Lord, behold, here is thy pound, which I have kept laid up in a napkin: For I feared thee, because thou art an austere man: thou takest up that thou layedst not down, and reapest that thou didst not sow. And he saith unto him, Out of thine own mouth will I judge thee, thou wicked servant. Thou knewest that I was an austere man, taking up that I laid not down, and reaping that I did not sow: Wherefore then gavest not thou my money into the bank, that at my coming I might have required mine own with usury? And he said unto them that stood by, Take from him the pound, and give it to him that hath ten pounds. (And they said unto him, Lord, he hath ten pounds.) For I say unto you, That unto every one which hath shall be given; and from him that hath not, even that he hath shall be taken away from him."
This is the contrasting doctrine of "conditional security" which is dependent on "good works" as necessary to retain the free gift of unmerited salvation. Romans 2:3-13.
" To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good" Romans 2:7-10 KJV (boldface emphasis added).
There are Evangelical Protestant Christian online sites which present the following Biblical texts as opposing unconditional eternal security.
Two of these Protestant online sites list more references than are presented here:
Matthew 6:15; 10:22-32; 19:21-35
Luke 12:41-46
John 15:4-6, 10
1 Corinthians 6:9-11; 15:1-2
Galatians 4:9; 5:1-5, 19-20; 6:8-9
Ephesians 5:5-6
Colossians 1:21-23
1 Thessalonians 5:21-22
Hebrews 3:6, 14; 10:26-29
James 5:19-20
2 Peter 2:20-22; 3:17
1 John 2:1-29
2 John 8
Revelation 2:4-7, 10, 25-36; 3:1-5
This is the contrasting doctrine of "conditional salvation" which depends on personal perseverance in heroically living a virtuous life pleasing to God, actively avoiding even the appearance of evil and striving to remain faithful to the Christian calling even unto death, so as not to lose salvation and forfeit the unmerited free gift of eternal life—the argument that if salvation cannot be lost, there would be no warnings in the New Testament to Christians to remain faithful, to avoid sin and error, and to persevere to the end lest they be found wanting and be condemned with the unrighteous. St. Paul himself said,
"Not that I had already attained this or am already perfect; but I press on to make it my own, because Christ Jesus has made me his own. Brethren, I do not consider that I have made it my own; but one thing I do, forgetting what lies behind and straining forward to what lies ahead, I press on toward the mark for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus. Let those of us who are "perfect" be thus minded; and if in anything you are otherwise minded, God will reveal that also to you. Only let us hold true to what we have attained." Philippians 3:12-16.
(See multiple commentaries on Philippians 3:13.)
"Do you not know that in a race all the runners contend, but only one receives the prize? So run that you may obtain it. Every man striving for mastery exercises self-control in all things. They do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable crown. Therefore, I do not run aimlessly, I do not box as one beating the air; but I control my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified." 1&nsbp;Corinthians 9:24-27.
(See multiple commentaries on 1 Corinthians 9:27.)
--Dataclarifier (talk) 00:05, 19 November 2019 (EST)
How come you can never answer a simple scriptural question, rather than spamming the page with verses of condemnation for the unsaved? You do not speak or preach the Gospel of Grace. All you do is preach a gospel of works and condemnation -which is no gospel at all. I'll pray for you, but more importantly, I pray for the people you mislead. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 00:55, 19 November 2019 (EST)

The issue of "issues"

Perhaps we need to do a section on the issue of "issues"

  • Moses tapped the rock and water issued forth.
  • Moses' name literally means drawn out or (more accurately analogous or synonymous with) issue (a coming forth)
  • The woman with the issue of blood
  • These words that I speak unto you (the issue of my mouth), they are spirit and they are life.

I'm only opening the can here, but the issue of water through out scripture (for example, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water) runs throughout scripture. A study of this issue will prove Dataclarifier's use of "water" is always, entirely fleshly and natural, and not based upon any spiritual truth. The natural man (and mind) cannot understand the things of God. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 10:29, 18 November 2019 (EST)

an issue is a flowing. Just as water flowed forth to sustains natural life in the flesh, the Spirit flows forth to give life. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 12:35, 18 November 2019 (EST)
Leviticus 17:11 - the life of the flesh is in the blood
Psalm 4:23 - Keep thy heart with all diligence; for out of it are the issues of life.
Note: no mention of water. It is the Spirit that gives life. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 13:50, 18 November 2019 (EST)
John 3:5 "Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." 1 Peter 3:21 "Baptism doth save you now". Titus 3:5-7 "He saved us, not because of deeds done by us in righteousness, but in virtue of his own mercy, by the λουτρού water-washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit which he poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that we might be justified by his grace and become heirs in hope of eternal life."
--Dataclarifier (talk) 00:37, 19 November 2019 (EST)
Again, you miss the point: God did not make the word with his hands, he spoke it into existence by the issue of his mouth. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 11:46, 22 November 2019 (EST)
"For you, my friend, salvation is a real nail-biter - cause you don't know whether or not you are saved."
True. Even St. Paul did not know with certainty: Philippians 3:10-16 (Compare John 15:4-6.)
"Therefore let any one who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall. 1 Corinthians 10:12.
--Dataclarifier (talk) 19:22, 18 November 2019 (EST)
If you are such a scholar, answer two simple questions from Hebrews:
  1. Was the gospel preached to Israel in the wilderness?
  2. Are all believers priests?
And I'd be careful about boasting of wisdom - it is a manifestation of pride - the sin of Lucifer. Better re-read Matthew 23 carefully [29] Only a sincere and repentant heart can remove the blinders. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 11:00, 22 November 2019 (EST)
Hmmm, no response to two simple questions on scriptural content in two days, the first question being asked a month ago. You're loosing your credentials real fast as a knowledgeable person of the scriptures.
I donated my Strong's Concordance to the county jail sometime ago cause I don't need it anymore. I've been immersed (baptized) in the spirit long enough and God has given me the power of discernment.
Unless you eat the body of The Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in yourselves.
This is an hard saying. Who can hear it?
Water baptism only cleanses the outside of the cup, but inward is still filled with all manner of uncleanness. Consuming the Word - being immersed in the Word to where it becomes the very fiber of your being - one no longer needs study helps and reference books to cut n paste lame arguments mixed with the doctrines of men to argue for a gospel of works, capped off with scriptural citations of condemnation for those without salvation.
Only the blood of Christ saves, not water and spam, as you claim. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 18:32, 23 November 2019 (EST)

A personal testimony

I lost my mother at 12. She was a devout Catholic woman. I do not doubt at all that she is in paradise with the Lord despite all her rosaries, vain repetition, praying to saints, etc. My own personal road to salvation was a longer road. But I did first hear the Word of God in the Roman Catholic Church. The book of Hebrews is my favorite book - it just sings to me, as does Isaiah. I love reading Hebrews in one sitting, and would recommend it to anybody.

As a young altar boy, I recall hearing in Hebrews that we all are priests. When I asked the priest afterward, why does the Word of God conflict with what I learn in religion class, he just joked and laughed, and never gave a satisfactory answer to my childish faith. I'm not the first catholic to be warned off of God's word. The church has just picked up too much extraneous non-scriptural baggage over two millennia, which isn't really surprising. The same thing is occurring even in many much younger Protestant sects. I guess this is what is meant by regeneration, renewal, and revival, which is a neverending process. But faith in the Word cuts through all the junk, so long as it's spoken, and heard.

Feel free to contact me on my user page if I can ever help in understanding scripture. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 01:48, 19 November 2019 (EST)

  • You say "The book of Hebrews is my favorite book - it just sings to me, as does Isaiah. I love reading Hebrews in one sitting, and would recommend it to anybody."
    This claim needs examination. --Dataclarifier (talk) 04:58, 19 November 2019 (EST)
Hebrews "Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled έρραντισμένοι from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed λελουμένοι with pure water." Hebrews 10:22 (Greek Orthodox text, Byzantine Majority text, Textus Receptus)
a true heart in full assurance of faith
Why don't you expound a little bit on this text (Note: if babies have no cognitive skills, they hardly have full assurance of faith in infant baptism).
While you are at it, expound on having our hearts sprinkled έρραντισμένοι from an evil conscience, since apparently babies have no cognitive skills to have a conscience.
RobSDe Plorabus Unum 11:26, 22 November 2019 (EST)

variant textual reading ῥεραντισμένοι rherantismenoi having been sprinkled clean (Nestle, Westcott and Hort, Tischendorf texts)
variant textual reading λελουσμένοι lelousmenoi having been washed, having bathed entirely the whole person (Nestle, Westcott and Hort, Tischendorf texts)
Apparently you didn't see this when you read Hebrews again and again.
The Greek word έρραντισμένοι errantismenoi "aspersions" (with water) is from ρατισμός rhantismos aspersion.
The Greek word λελουμένοι leleoumenoi "(many we) washed" is from λούω lŏuō wash, cleanse.
See the interlinear text of Hebrews 10:22 (Nestle, Westcott and Hort, Tischendorf).
See multiple commentaries on Hebrews 10:22. —"the terms body and water after hearts and blood certainly suggest a direct reference to baptism. And such definite allusion is in keeping with references elsewhere to the beginning of the Christian life (see Acts 2:38; Acts 22:16; Romans 6:3, 4; 1 Corinthians 12:13; Galatians 3:27; Colossians 2:12; 1 Peter 3:21)"
Compare multiple translations of Hebrews 10:22.
--Dataclarifier (talk) 04:29, 19 November 2019 (EST)

You do not fear. All of the following scriptures were addressed by Paul to believers in the churches, not to unbelievers:
"Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God." 2 Corinthians 7:1
"Submitting yourselves to one another in the fear of God." Ephesians 5:21
"Servants, be obedient to them that are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in singleness of your heart, as unto Christ; Not with eye-service, as men-pleasers; but as the servants of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart; With good will doing service, as to the Lord, and not to men: Knowing that whatsoever good thing any man doeth, the same shall he receive of the Lord, whether he be bond or free." Ephesians 6:5-8
"Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling." Philippians 2:12
"Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear." 1 Timothy
"Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it." Hebrews 4:1
"Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear: For our God is a consuming fire." Hebrews 12:28-29
"And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear" 1 Peter 1:17
"Fear God" 1 Peter 2:17
"While they behold your chaste conversation coupled with fear." 1 Peter 3:15
"And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants and the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth." Revelation 11:18
"Fear God, and give glory to him" Revelation 14:7
"Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest." Revelation 15:4
"And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great." Revelation 19:5 (the wicked do not praise God, only those that fear him, his servants)
"There is no fear of God before their eyes"—"They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. Their throat is an open sepulcher; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips: Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness: Their feet are swift to shed blood: Destruction and misery are in their ways: And the way of peace have they not known: There is no fear of God before their eyes. Romans 3:18, 3:12-18
Paul did not write this last passage about believing Christians who truly fear God, but only about the wicked and unbelieving: There is no fear of God before their eyes. You have ridiculed the fear of Christians, who love God and fear to offend him and reverently and fearfully trust in his mercy, as I and St. Paul and all those who obeyed him in the fear of the Lord.
You have no fear of God. There is no fear of God before your eyes. That is the attitude of the wicked who boast against God that they have no need to fear his judgment. This is evident in your consistently blatant defiant rejection and twisting of the words of Scripture against the plain words of Scripture as being against the word of Jesus Christ himself about water "Except a man be born again of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God." "Baptism saves you now." "If he refuses to hear the Church, let him be unto you as a publican and a pagan" (unclean).
"Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my recompense, to repay every one for what he has done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end. Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and that they may enter the city by the gates."
You have consistently proven here and elsewhere on Conservapedia that you are not the one to help anyone understand scripture (Cafeteria Christianity, Confirmation bias). You have demonstrated that you are no biblical scholar. You have no competent knowledge of the Greek New Testament and its vocabulary and syntax and semantic import in context both immediate and within the whole. You have been badly misled (Mark 12:24) by Specious reasoning which cancels the word of God 2 Peter 3:15-18. You disobeyed those who were over you in the Lord Hebrews 13:17. You "went out from us" 1 John 2:18-19. And you teach a different gospel from the one you had received Galatians 1:6-9. There is no fear of God before your eyes, because of the false, condemned doctrine of Eternal security and salvation by "faith alone", a sin of presumption which the Bible itself condemns James 2:12-26 (and in all of the scriptures cited above about fearing God).
"Ask, and it will be given you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you." If you really desire to do the will of God, you will return to the truth of the Gospel of the Lord. James 5:19-20.
--Dataclarifier (talk) 03:26, 19 November 2019 (EST)
That which is flesh is flesh; that which is spirit is spirit. The flesh profiteth nothing.
You still don't know he difference between natural and spiritual.
The natural man cannot understand the things of God.
You do not understand the difference between spiritual baptism and water baptism.
RobSDe Plorabus Unum 10:45, 22 November 2019 (EST)

Making disciples: Matthew 28:19-20 - Baptism, then doctrine of faith

Jesus makes quite clear that disciples are made by the procedure that he himself ordained:
(1) baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit
(2) teaching them to observe all that he commanded his apostles. He explicitly stated, "Except one is regenerated of water and the Spirit, one cannot enter the kingdom of God."
This is fully in keeping with references elsewhere to the beginning of the Christian life (see Acts 2:38; Acts 22:16; Romans 6:3, 4; 1 Corinthians 12:13; Galatians 3:27; Colossians 2:12; 1 Peter 3:21).
Whole households were first baptized, and then devoted themselves to the apostles' teaching and fellowship, to the eucharistic breaking of the bread, and to the prayers. Sixteen centuries of Christian doctrine established the apostolic tradition, grounded in the Bible and the preaching of the Gospel, of baptizing all who were to be made disciples, including all newborn infants of baptized and believing Christian parents, teaching them the saving necessity of producing by their professed faith in which they are raised the fruits of good works and living lives of moral purity, the purpose for which God created them in Christ, and that without producing the fruits of good works of mercy for those in need they would be condemned to the outer darkness. (Mark 16:15-16)
Then the Anabaptists and Baptists rejected this by preaching salvation by faith alone (which the Bible condemns), and in response to this doctrine they were condemned as heretics by the whole Christian world, Protestant, Orthodox, Catholic,

  • for their unbiblical and non-Christian man-made doctrine of refusal to obey the command of the Lord (Luke 6:46; John 14:23-24) by their refusal to make infants disciples of the kingdom of God through (1) the saving regeneration of their souls by baptism, and then after baptism (2) raising them up in the teaching of the apostles and the breaking of bread and the prayers,
  • condemned them for their denial of the unmerited grace of the saving power of God in the sacraments of baptism and eucharist by their heretical teaching that these are legal ordinances of symbolic ceremony only,
  • and for their condemnation of the apostolic Christian doctrine of regenerative baptism,
  • because they made salvation dependent solely on the human work of listening, comprehending, understanding and then publicly confessing faith in Christ as their personal Lord and Savior in order to be saved, an act no infant is capable of performing, thus deliberately withholding from them rebirth to new life which would make them each "a new creature".

The choice is clear: either to believe what the Bible clearly says about water baptism "which now saves you", or to reject what it says in order to hold to the sixteenth century four hundred year old man-made tradition of salvation by faith alone which the Bible condemns.

--Dataclarifier (talk) 16:20, 19 November 2019 (EST)

You can't make a disciple until you saved. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 10:41, 22 November 2019 (EST) -- In Jesus' words, your subheading here would make readers a twofold follower of hell (Matt 23:15). RobSDe Plorabus Unum 18:59, 23 November 2019 (EST)
The bottom line is, you do not preach Christ saves, you preach water baptism saves. You preach doctrines of men and a gospel of works - which is no gospel at all. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 11:34, 22 November 2019 (EST)
You are essentially a Pharisee who preaches, Ye must be circumcised. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 11:36, 22 November 2019 (EST)

Matthew 23:36 - You blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and the plate, that the outside also may be clean.

Again, the Word of Jesus shoots your entire errant doctrine to smithereens. The word is quick and powerful. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 19:04, 23 November 2019 (EST)

Baptism cleanses from sin and saves us now. Ephesians 5:26-27; Acts 22:16; 1 Peter 3:21; John 3:3-5. And after Baptism, if we sin, we can confess our sins and be cleansed from all unrighteousness. 1 John 1:9; James 5:16. The Word of God. --Dataclarifier (talk) 13:44, 24 November 2019 (EST)
Only the blood of Jesus cleanses us. Read your bible. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 13:54, 24 November 2019 (EST)
I cited the Bible.
Baptism cleanses from sin and saves us now. Ephesians 5:26-27; Acts 22:16; 1 Peter 3:21; John 3:3-5. And after Baptism, if we sin, we can confess our sins and be cleansed from all unrighteousness. 1 John 1:9; James 5:16. The Word of God. --Dataclarifier (talk) 14:24, 24 November 2019 (EST)
You are not citing the bible. You are cut n pasting passages and citations that have nothing to do with the subject at hand. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 14:29, 24 November 2019 (EST)
The subject is the grace of salvation. Each of the passages cited testifies to salvation in Christ by the unmerited grace of baptism. Baptism cleanses from sin and saves us now. Ephesians 5:26-27; Acts 22:16; 1 Peter 3:21; John 3:3-5. And after Baptism, if we sin, we can confess our sins and be cleansed from all unrighteousness by Christ. 1 John 1:9; James 5:16. --Dataclarifier (talk) 14:38, 24 November 2019 (EST)
Ok, good. Now tell me what Grace is. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 14:52, 24 November 2019 (EST)
"Grace" χάρις in the New Testament is the gracious gift of Godgratifying graciousness: favor, the divine influence upon the heart (even of an infant), and its reflection in the life. The unmerited gift of salvation in Christ by his blood poured out upon us (Titus 3:6) through the water-washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit (Titus 3:5), because "This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth." That is why Baptism cleanses from sin and saves us now. Ephesians 5:26-27; Acts 22:16; 1 Peter 3:21; John 3:3-5. And after Baptism, if we sin, we can confess our sins and be cleansed from all unrighteousness. 1 John 1:9; James 5:16. --Dataclarifier (talk) 15:08, 24 November 2019 (EST)
  • "his blood poured out upon us"
This is your own construct. Nowhere does the scripture say "poured out upon us". It says "poured out for us. Even if meant to say 'atonement', it still is only symbolic. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 16:37, 26 November 2019 (EST)
"poured out upon us" (Titus 3:6 interlinear) ού εξεχεεν έφ’ ήμάς πλουσίως --Dataclarifier (talk) 02:52, 30 November 2019 (EST)
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;

7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

(A) God's mercy and grace is shed upon us;

(B) If you care to cite this verse, then dump your gospel of works, "Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy (grace)...." RobSDe Plorabus Unum 10:32, 30 November 2019 (EST)

This verse is illustrative of your ceaseless misreading and misinterpretation of scripture. No, the scripture is not a random collection of words that you can extract three or four words here and there to support an errant doctrine. Let's examine the full context here:

5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his [the Father's] mercy he [the Father] saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

6 Which he [the Father] shed on us abundantly through [his Son] Jesus Christ our Saviour;

7 That being justified by his [the Father's] grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

These same three lines introduce two doctrines: (1) the Gospel of Grace, and (2) eterenal life, which you have studiously avoided any serious discussion of. There is no reference to water baptism, at all, in this context or any of the three verse. It is the Father's mercy and grace shed upon us by the blood of his Son, Jesus Christ. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 15:21, 30 November 2019 (EST)

Comparison with Islam

Infant baptism is essentially no different than Muslims who whisper "There is One God but Allah, and Mohammad is his Prophet" into the ears of babies and infants. [30] In both cases, it leads to rejection of the redeeming sacrifice of Christ and points to a Gospel of Works. In the case of Islam, it recognizes a baby or infant cannot make a choice and commit to a solemn pledge. In fact, it is my firm belief that much of Roman Catholicism doctrine in the preaching of infant baptism was motivated by a desire to resist pressures of Islamic conversion in the Mediterranean world over the past millennia. A doctrine of infant baptism provides a justification for resistance to Islam and supposed path of repentance for those who weakened and took the oath to Allah (the First Pillar of Islam is in fact an oath, and a rejection of Christ).

In both cases, it is brainwashing of youth that claims God uses a merit system (Gospel of Works) and rejection of salvation in Christ. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 10:36, 22 November 2019 (EST)

"Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the water-washing λουτρού of regeneration παλιγγενεσίας, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; that being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life." Titus 3:5-7. "Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born γεννηθή regenerated of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God." John 3:5. --Dataclarifier (talk) 14:17, 24 November 2019 (EST)
Your spamming redundant links again. Just answer, What is grace? RobSDe Plorabus Unum 14:25, 24 November 2019 (EST)
The unmerited salvation of Christ in baptism, and afterward in forgiveness by confession of our sins.--Dataclarifier (talk) 14:32, 24 November 2019 (EST)
I will rephrase:
Grace is the unmerited salvation of Christ in baptism, and afterward the unmerited grace of salvation through forgiveness by confession of our sins. --Dataclarifier (talk) 14:45, 24 November 2019 (EST)
Baptism cleanses from sin and saves us now. Ephesians 5:26-27; Acts 22:16; 1 Peter 3:21; John 3:3-5. And after Baptism, if we sin, we can confess our sins and be cleansed from all unrighteousness. 1 John 1:9; James 5:16. The Word of God. --Dataclarifier (talk) 14:53, 24 November 2019 (EST)
Ok good. Let's zero in on this right here: First clean the inside of the cup and the plate, I assume refers to confession and repentance, would you agree? RobSDe Plorabus Unum 15:00, 24 November 2019 (EST)
[Parenthetical Not to derail a good ongoing discussion, which I hope you answer above, but let expound momentarily: while repentance is a change of heart or change of mind, it cannot remain in your head, It must be spoken with your mouth. Sin must be admitted by the issue of your words. Catholic confession recognized this loooong before Sigmund Freud ever admired the the psychological wellbeing that comes from it.]
"Grace" χάρις in the New Testament is the gracious gift of Godgratifying graciousness: favor, the divine influence upon the heart (even of an infant), and its reflection in the life. The unmerited gift of salvation in Christ by his blood poured out upon us through the water-washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit, because "This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth." That is why Baptism cleanses from sin and saves us now. Ephesians 5:26-27; Acts 22:16; 1 Peter 3:21; John 3:3-5. And after Baptism, if we sin, we can confess our sins and be cleansed from all unrighteousness. 1 John 1:9; James 5:16. --Dataclarifier (talk) 15:07, 24 November 2019 (EST)
Baptism "cleanses the inside of the cup and the plate" even of a newborn baby defiled by the sin of Adam Romans 5:6-19. --Dataclarifier (talk) 15:15, 24 November 2019 (EST)
Your requirement of repentance, a change of heart or change of mind, which must be spoken with the mouth, and admitted by the issue of words, excludes from the possibility of salvation all newborns, infants, and children in arms who die, who are incapable of understanding, let alone competent to express repentance, a change of heart or change of mind, which must be spoken with the mouth, and admitted by the issue of words, especially since "there is none righteous, no not one", and "all have sinned". The regeneration of baptism by water and the Spirit for these "while we were helpless" saves them now. That is the unmerited grace of salvation in Christ through the gracious gift of baptism "in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit". --Dataclarifier (talk) 15:25, 24 November 2019 (EST)
Everywhere you have denied a spiritual interpretation of biblical texts, and have placed a natuiral interpretation followed up by citations of condemnation for those who are in the flesh (i.e. not spiritually born). You have never defined salvation, grace, or eternal life. You can't answer a simple question that any bible student could answer, or at least show curiosity about - Was the gospel preached to Israel in the wilderness?
So now I'm going to do a hard rendition of your misuse of scripture and demonstrate to readers following this discussion where it leads, using John 8:38-45, interspersed with my comments:
38 I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father.

39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.

  • Fully expounded by Paul in Romans and Galatians.

40 But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.

41 Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.

  • Denial of the spiritual, and these would-be heirs of salvation emphasis on the natural.

42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

  • I chose the Book of John way back at the start of this discussion, beginning at Chapter 1 verse 27, which leads you back to Exodus chapter 33 and the Gospel of Grace - "and the scripture cannot be broken"

43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.

44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

  • Your insistence upon placing a natural or fleshly interpretation on the term "water" at every juncture, is the same misuse of scripture that Nazis and neo-Nazis use in interpreting this scripture, claiming that Jesus called Jews "children of the devil." It is those whose foundation of faith is a belief that a ritual ceremony performed over them at birth made them heirs of salvation, whom Jesus referred to as children of the devil.

45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.

Jesus clearly teaches that spiritual birth is not by natural birth or any family tradition. Being lucky enough to be born into a family tradition that honors God entitles you to nothing. The blessings of Abraham, and being an heir of salvation, are not bestowed by a ritual ceremony, such as circumcision or baptism, at natural birth. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 17:01, 26 November 2019 (EST)

RobS's position, simplified

1. We are saved by faith, not by works (Ephesians 2:8-9, Romans 3:28, also, grace and works cannot be mixed because then the "grace" is no longer, by definition, grace according to Romans 11:6)

2. Water Baptism is a physical act one must physically perform and is therefore a work.

3. Requiring water Baptism would contradict the scriptures that say we are saved by grace and NOT works.

[31] [32] [33] [34] [35] [36] [37] Here's another useful link: [38] Shobson20 (talk) 21:26, 25 November 2019 (EST)

RobS, I am just throwing 2 cents in here. I have no desire to get involved in a long, drawn-out debate with Dataclarifier, I just thought I'd give you extra resources. Shobson20 (talk) 21:39, 25 November 2019 (EST)

Thanks. Couldn't have simplified it better myself. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 16:34, 26 November 2019 (EST)
Let me add a qualifier. I am not expounding a Protestant doctrine - quite the opposite. I speak as a Roman Catholic who was baptized at birth whom was chosen to be an heir of salvation, but only after I renounced any claim to eternal life based upon errant doctrine. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 17:05, 26 November 2019 (EST)
Above is a false summary statement "Water Baptism is a physical act one must physically perform and is therefore a work." No, it isn't. No baptized person is self-baptized. The one who is baptized does not perform the work. It is a grace, a totally unmerited gift bestowed, that no one can perform for himself, it can't be earned. It is done to the baptized, not done by the baptized. --Dataclarifier (talk) 07:39, 27 November 2019 (EST)
There are two mutually exclusive doctrines about what is required for salvation:
either to (A)—
  • Be brought helpless to the laver of salvation (Romans 5:6; Titus 3:5), regenerated by Baptism by water and the Spirit (or by blood, being killed because of Christ, or by an unconscious inner hidden desire to do the whole will of God which would include being baptized as ordained by God for salvation if they knew of its necessity).
—No one is excluded from Baptism unto salvation, including newborns, babies, children in arms who cannot talk or walk, who die before they understand anything, the mentally incompetent, and the ignorant who are unaware of the necessity of being baptised (no one is self-baptized).
—(if able) Believe in the Resurrection of the dead.
—(if able) As far as possible learn to do good works pleasing to the Father with faith in Christ.
—(if able) Believe that God will reward every one according to their works.
"For he will render to every man according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are factious and do not obey the truth, but obey wickedness, there will be wrath and fury." Romans 2:6-8
Compare Apostles' Creed, Nicene Creed, Athanasian Creed.
or to (B)—
  • Personally decide to hear the Gospel, understand, acknowledge sin, repent, accept Jesus Christ as risen from the dead and publicly profess Him as personal Lord and Savior.
–Good works are not required to be saved by faith alone.
–All who do not believe because they have never heard or accepted the Gospel, newborns, babies, children in arms who cannot talk or walk, who die before they understand anything, the mentally incompetent, and the ignorant, are not saved if they do not believe with faith and publicly confess with their mouth that Jesus Christ is risen and accept him as their personal Lord and Savior.
Compare Traditionalism.
--Dataclarifier (talk) 07:55, 27 November 2019 (EST)
We Recovering Catholics have a joke, "The Roman Catholic Church thinks they got God captured in a box" - which Dataclarifier just artfully established. For those not in the know, let me explain: every Roman Catholic church has a 'tabernacle' where previously consecrated, unused communion hosts are stored. I'm not here to discuss transubstantiation, but I will relay what my brother, who was a seminarian, told me about his conversion: he said that at the age of 8 he wondered if everytime he took a crap, he lost Jesus. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 12:36, 27 November 2019 (EST)
I had the same question when I first accepted Catholic doctrine in the Bible. When the host ceases to be the recognizable form of bread (fifteen minutes at most) the Real presence of Christ Jesus departs, avoiding defilement, while his Spirit remains in the heart and soul. The priest explains this when anyone asks. If he didn't ask, he didn't want to. "If you want to, you'll find a way, If you don't you'll find an excuse." (people who doubt have a right to know—if they really want to)--Dataclarifier (talk) 18:13, 27 November 2019 (EST)
So my brother was right - you poop out Christ every 24 hours, hence the necessity of daily communion. I never noticed this until he pointed it out to me. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 23:00, 27 November 2019 (EST)
What the Bible says is plain and clear. What Jesus said is plain and clear.

  • "Why do you not understand what I say? It is because you cannot bear to hear my word." John 8:43. "He who is of God hears the words of God; the reason why you do not hear them is that you are not of God." John 8:47.
Amazing. I posted the full context of John 8:43 above where Jesus explains the faith of Abraham is what determines your salvation, and not a ritual ceremony at birth. Mr. Dataclarfier then, who likes to accuse people of "Cafeteria Christianity", ignores the context of John chapter 8 and posts it in support of his errant doctrine. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by User:RobSmith (talk)
Then babies who die are damned because they don't express with their mouth the faith of Abraham and confess with their lips that Jesus Christ is their personal Lord and Savior. But the one true God is not willing that any should perish. Jesus saves us by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit.
Amazing. I posted the full context of John 3:3-5 above where Jesus explains that baptism of water and the Spirit is necessary and determines your salvation. Titus 3:5 --Dataclarifier (talk) 18:04, 27 November 2019 (EST)
No, Mr. Dataclifier, the scripture is not a smorgasbord of loosely meaningless verses you can pick and choose like at a cafeteria in support of an errant doctrine. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 17:03, 27 November 2019 (EST)
Scripture is not meaningless. All of it in context is true. But some twist its meaning to their own destruction by ignoring and contradicting chosen selected parts as unworthy of belief. 2 Peter 3:15-18. --Dataclarifier (talk) 18:17, 27 November 2019 (EST)
Stop ignoring my scriptural questions, then. Whom was Jesus speaking to when he said Ye are of your father the devil, and why did he say that? RobSDe Plorabus Unum 23:00, 27 November 2019 (EST)



Hey Dataclarifier! Stop ignoring me! Come up here and answer this question before you ramble on with more nonsense.RobSDe Plorabus Unum 07:44, 28 November 2019 (EST)


You're repeating yourself, RobS has already answered your "proof texts" many times. Shobson20 (talk) 11:23, 27 November 2019 (EST)
Not by might, not by power, [not by spam and misusing scripture] but by my Spirit, saith the Lord. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 12:36, 27 November 2019 (EST)
You're going to have to do better than cite sites of commentaries that claim scripture says what it does not say by reinterpreting it with facile interpretations of words in a way that violates their actual semantical content and by contradicting what the Bible plainly says and use scripture against itself in order to speciously pretend to have any credibility—in addition to just simply and plainly contradicting the Bible by saying the Bible is contradictory by speciously pitting the simple faith of Abraham against the words of Jesus who established the necessity of baptism by water and the Spirit as necessary for salvation.
Jesus said, "Except a man be regenerated by water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God."
Peter said, "Baptism saves you now."
"Jesus saves us by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit."
Jesus said, "He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned."
Jesus said, "He who does not love me does not keep my words; and the word which you hear is not mine but the Father's who sent me."
I believe Him. I believe what he said. I believe the Bible. You do not.
--Dataclarifier (talk) 18:04, 27 November 2019 (EST)

My pastor recently gave more than one sermon on water baptism leading up to several people getting baptized. He was adamant that people should get water baptised and that they would be being disobedient to God if they didn't. In short, if you don't get baptised and you have an opportunity to get baptised, then you have a bad attitude. But he did concede that the thief on the cross who repented did go to heaven without being water baptised of course.

Next, one of my favorite courses in college was Logic 101. I also very much enjoyed the computer classes that I took also. And using logical reasoning, I could immediately tell that Dataclarifier was wrong about this matter: Does Mark 16:16 teach that baptism is necessary for salvation?. The author of the article was correct when he wrote: In order for this verse to teach that baptism is necessary for salvation, a third statement would be necessary, viz., “He who believes and is not baptized will be condemned” or “He who is not baptized will be condemned.” But, of course, neither of these statements is found in the verse.

In addition, the Bible teaches that faith without works is dead (Epistle of James). In short, true faith will produce works. If you have faith, then you will want to get baptised and will get baptised. On the other hand, the Bible clearly teaches that one is saved by faith and not by works lest any man should boast (Paul's letter to the Ephesians). This is such a simple concept. If you don't get it, it is because you don't want to get it.

Also, nowhere in the New Testament is infant baptism taught.

And then there is church history.

Consider:

"Tertullian is the earliest to reference to the practice of infant baptism. He advised against it.

The Apostolic Tradition’s description of the ceremony of baptism shows that it was designed for those who were old enough to take an active part.

In fact, the confession of faith was so integral to baptism that, if a person could not confess the faith themselves, parents or someone else in the family would speak on their behalf.

A century after Tertullian, Cyprian advocated for infant baptism, although for many years this remained the exception to the rule of full immersion. Infant baptism did not become routine until the fifth and sixth centuries."[39]Conservative (talk) 18:40, 27 November 2019 (EST)

Objections to Jesus' requirement of water baptism are fundamentally (pun intended) based on the erroneous belief that Catholicism teaches that the doctrine of regenerative baptism infallibly secures salvation eternally, infallibly, irrevocably for infants who grow to adulthood and that it cannot for any reason be rescinded or cancelled because of sin—therefore, no one baptized as an infant can lose their salvation.
That is not Catholic doctrine. It isn't biblical doctrine.
See Eternal security (salvation) "once saved, always saved". The New Testament repeatedly warns believers that they can lose the grace of salvation!
According to the doctrine of regenerative baptism of infants (which is nowhere condemned in the Bible) one is saved now by baptism, and that afterward, as they mature and come to increasing growth in their conscious grasp of the supernaturally infused baptismal faith by the supernatural help of the grace of baptism in their souls, they can rebelliously turn away from faith in Christ, and lose the grace of salvation unto eternal life that God the Holy Spirit poured into the soul with the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Spirit and be condemned. "He who believes and is baptized will be saved, but he who does not believe will be damned." (Failure to believe afterward.) The Church warns her baptized children and adult converts, in complete agreement with the Bible, that the sin of presumption in believing they can now go ahead and freely sin with impunity because they are baptized is mortally fatal, and that purposely sinning kills the grace of salvation in the soul.
It is not Catholic or Bible doctrine that baptism permanently secures eternal salvation. Salvation is an eternal gift of unmerited grace as long as one remains faithful to God (Ezekiel 18). It is also not Bible doctrine that faith alone saves infallibly and irrevocably. Salvation by regenerative baptism can be lost by sin. Salvation by faith alone can be lost. If this is unclear, I will post all the warnings in the New Testament that say we must persevere in grace (of baptism) to the end to be saved. --Dataclarifier (talk) 19:56, 27 November 2019 (EST)
Let me get one step ahead of you: [40] [41] [42] [43] [44] [45] These are old canards. People much wiser than us have been debating them for a long time. Also, no, I do not think that Catholics believe that baptism is eternal security, nor do the people on the Gotquestions website. But Catholics do think it's necessary to get to Heaven as one of their 7 Sacraments. Shobson20 (talk) 20:38, 27 November 2019 (EST)
Dataclarifier is hardly an expert on scripture, as has been aptly demonstrated across the three pages he spams. He can't answer the most rudimentary questions of scripture. When asked, "What is salvation?", he claim's "baptism is salvation." When asked, "What is grace?", he claims "baptism is an 'act of grace." RobSDe Plorabus Unum 23:00, 27 November 2019 (EST)
SHobson's declaration that "Catholics do think [baptism] is necessary to get to Heaven as one of their 7 Sacraments", doesn't follow from even the most obvious evidence. Matrimony is one of the seven sacraments. So being married is "necessary to get to heaven"? VargasMilan (talk) Thursday, 01:34, 28 November 2019 (EST)
Dataclarifier's argument is essentially that baptism is an admission ticket to compete in a gospel of works. In neither context - baptism at birth or judgement at death - is the blood of Christ necessary, or a guarantee, of salvation. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 07:55, 28 November 2019 (EST)

The blood of Christ—Catechism of the Catholic Church 1225 (boldface emphasis added

"1225 In his Passover Christ opened to all men the fountain of Baptism. He had already spoken of his Passion, which he was about to suffer in Jerusalem, as a "Baptism" with which he had to be baptized. The blood and water that flowed from the pierced side of the crucified Jesus are types of Baptism and the Eucharist, the sacraments of new life. From then on, it is possible "to be born of water and the Spirit" in order to enter the Kingdom of God.
See where you are baptized, see where Baptism comes from, if not from the cross of Christ, from his death. There is the whole mystery: he died for you. In him you are redeemed, in him you are saved."

Titus 3:5 Greek λουτρού "water-washing"
There you have the blood of Christ in baptism which saves us now. --Dataclarifier (talk) 08:30, 28 November 2019 (EST)

Meaningless, cause in the end you state that "your blood is upon your own head."
Now go back upstairs and answer about children of the devil. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 09:57, 28 November 2019 (EST)
Salvation [46]. Grace [47]. Abundant scripture provided. There it is. --Dataclarifier (talk) 01:39, 28 November 2019 (EST)
Topical Bible: Salvation [48] Grace [49]. There it is. --Dataclarifier (talk) 01:48, 28 November 2019 (EST)
That is not what I asked - at all. Any fool can do a Google search and post a link. I have asked probably a dozen times "What is salvation?" because of your misuse of scripture, I want to hear your explanation in your own words (remember, words = spirit per the scripture). Above you posted a rather obtuse statement that the "Spirit of Christ" is contained in a communion host. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 07:21, 28 November 2019 (EST)
Is there a difference between "salvation" and "redemption"? Or are they same and only seem different depending on the different contexts in which they happen to appear? VargasMilan (talk) Thursday, 01:45, 28 November 2019 (EST)
Redemption is a 'buying back' from sin and bondage, which yes, is a form of salvation. Salvation per see however is much more than just liberation from bondage. It refers to a present and future tense also, being saved from relapsing into the bondage of sin in this world, and being saved from the wrath of God and judgement in law.RobSDe Plorabus Unum 07:44, 28 November 2019 (EST)
"being saved from relapsing into the bondage of sin in this world, and being saved from the wrath of God and judgement in law."? There are those who reject the doctrine of Irresistible Grace and Eternal Security as a heresy, based on the Bible, primarily the Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church. See the following:
The doctrine of Irresistible Grace and Eternal Security is rejected not only by the Catholics and the Orthodox but also by notable Protestant groups such as Free Will Baptists, Assemblies of God, and Churches of Christ, and all who agree with the doctrine of Arminianism.
"saved from relapsing"?Groups that oppose this doctrine of Irresistible Grace and Eternal Security support their views on the basis of the following texts, among others:
1 Corinthians 10:12 "Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall."
2 Peter 3:17 "beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness."
Ezekiel 18:24 "But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die."
Romans 11:19-22 "Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in. Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off." (boldface emphasis added)
--Dataclarifier (talk) 08:51, 28 November 2019 (EST)
Right here is where a discussion on Grace should take place. But you've shown no interest or inclination to do so after a month of spamming you redundant postings and links about your man-made gospel for the past month. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 11:48, 28 November 2019 (EST)
This is the contrasting doctrine of "conditional salvation" which depends on personal perseverance in heroically living a virtuous life pleasing to God, actively avoiding even the appearance of evil and striving to remain faithful to the Christian calling even unto death, so as not to lose salvation and forfeit the unmerited free gift of eternal life—the argument that if salvation cannot be lost, there would be no warnings in the New Testament to Christians to remain faithful, to avoid sin and error, and to persevere to the end lest they be found wanting and be condemned with the unrighteous. St. Paul himself said,
"Not that I had already attained this or am already perfect; but I press on to make it my own, because Christ Jesus has made me his own. Brethren, I do not consider that I have made it my own; but one thing I do, forgetting what lies behind and straining forward to what lies ahead, I press on toward the mark for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus. Let those of us who are "perfect" be thus minded; and if in anything you are otherwise minded, God will reveal that also to you. Only let us hold true to what we have attained." Philippians 3:12-16.
(See multiple commentaries on Philippians 3:13.)
"Do you not know that in a race all the runners contend, but only one receives the prize? So run that you may obtain it. Every man striving for mastery exercises self-control in all things. They do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable crown. Therefore, I do not run aimlessly, I do not box as one beating the air; but I control my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified." 1 Corinthians 9:24-27.
(See multiple commentaries on 1 Corinthians 9:27.)
--Dataclarifier (talk) 09:11, 28 November 2019 (EST)
Looked in my Strong's; can't find "conditional salvation."
More spam and more doctrines of men.
Quit screwing around and answer, Who was Jesus speaking to when he said 'Ye are of your father the devil'", and why did he say that. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 10:07, 28 November 2019 (EST)
I did however find this in John chapter 8, again, which you either misquote, misuse, or refuse to address:
36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.
Don't see any conditions there. And don't see any reference whatsoever to baptism, either. I do see Jesus saying you have to have the faith of Abraham to not be a child of the devil, and Abraham was never baptized. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 10:39, 28 November 2019 (EST)
Now comes the next typical Roman Catholic response, "Oh, Jesus didn't really mean what he said," it takes the Vicar of Christ on earth to set both God and us straight. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 10:53, 28 November 2019 (EST)
St. Paul has an even better answer:
"after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds: To them who by patient continuance in well-doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life; But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God." Romans 2:5-11.
This includes the truth that "Except a man be born again by water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God." John 3:3-5. "baptism doth also now save us". 1 Peter 3:21.
It's very simple: every newborn, infant, child in arms that is baptized is saved: every older child and adult who is baptized and continues in righteousness pleasing to God is saved: as for those who are baptized "the blood of Jesus Christ cleanseth us from all sin", and "if we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." 1 John 1:7, 9.
--Dataclarifier (talk) 11:27, 28 November 2019 (EST)
Absolutely pointless. Answer a simple question: Whom was Jesus speaking to, and Why? RobSDe Plorabus Unum 11:54, 28 November 2019 (EST)

Okay oaky oaky, I am going to say it. And I can say this, because (A) I have a Roman Catholic background, (B) I've spent nearly a lifetime studying this question, and (C) I've prayed with God over it many times.

Your utter ignorance of the Bible, and willingness to misuse it and misquote it, explains why most hardcore Nazis of the holocaust era came from Roman Catholic backgrounds and not Protestant. It is the net result of replacing the Word of God with doctrines of men, a focus on the fleshly and natural interpretation, and ignorance of spiritual truth. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 12:30, 28 November 2019 (EST)

Rob, you honor me, truly! "Blessed are you when men revile you and persecute you and utter all kinds of evil against you falsely on my account. Rejoice and be glad, for your reward is great in heaven, for so men persecuted the prophets who were before you." Matthew 5:11-12.
--Dataclarifier (talk) 15:12, 28 November 2019 (EST)
I will not stop defending the word of God and being an apologist for the Bible.--Dataclarifier (talk) 15:29, 28 November 2019 (EST)
Looks like we're still in John chapter 8, verse 37, My word is not in you. Per your own word, go eat a few communion wafers and maybe you can get Jesus to hang out with you for 15 or 30 minutes. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 19:27, 28 November 2019 (EST)

Law and Works

Law and Works
Romans 3:31 "Do we then overthrow the law by this faith? By no means! On the contrary, we uphold the law."
Romans 13:8 "Owe no one anything, except to love one another; for the one who loves another has fulfilled the law."
1 John 3:17 "How does God’s love abide in anyone who has the world’s goods and sees a brother or sister in need and yet refuses help?"
Revelation 2:5 "Remember then from what you have fallen; repent, and do the works you did at first. If not, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place, unless you repent."
Revelation 2:26 "To everyone who conquers and continues to do my works to the end, I will give authority over the nations;"
Revelation 3:2 "Wake up, and strengthen what remains and is at the point of death, for I have not found your works perfect in the sight of my God."
Revelation 3:15 "‘I know your works; you are neither cold nor hot. I wish that you were either cold or hot.", 3:17 "For you say, ‘I am rich, I have prospered, and I need nothing.’ You do not realize that you are wretched, pitiable, poor, blind, and naked."
Revelation 20:12 "And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Also another book was opened, the book of life. And the dead were judged according to their works, as recorded in the books."
Revelation 22:12 " ‘See, I am coming soon; my reward is with me, to repay according to everyone’s work."
James 2:17 "So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead."
James 2:24 "You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone."
James 2:26 "For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is also dead."
Matthew 7:19 "Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire."
Matthew 7:21 "Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord’, will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only one who does the will of my Father in heaven."
John 15:2 "He removes every branch in me that bears no fruit. Every branch that bears fruit he prunes to make it bear more fruit."
Matthew 25:30 "As for this worthless slave, throw him into the outer darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."
John 3:3 "Jesus answered him, ‘Very truly, I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God without being born from above.’ "
John 3:5 "Jesus answered, ‘Very truly, I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit."
Luke 6:46 " ‘Why do you call me “Lord, Lord”, and do not do what I tell you?’ "
Titus 3:5 "he saved us, not because of any works of righteousness that we had done, but according to his mercy, through the water of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit."
Ephesians 2:10 "For we are what he has made us, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand to be our way of life."
--Dataclarifier (talk) 14:58, 28 November 2019 (EST)

Talk page is becoming repetitive and non-productive at this point

The talk page is becoming repetitive and non-productive at this point. If something is not hammered out, I don't see the article being unlocked anytime soon. Conservative (talk) 01:33, 29 November 2019 (EST)

I am guessing Andy would prefer the parties work out something (non-infant baptism section, infant baptism section, etc.) rather than endless contention and repetition.
If the parties are not going to work something out, then let the parties move on and work on other articles. Nothing productive is happening at this point. Conservative (talk) 01:38, 29 November 2019 (EST)
I think we've established, via Dataclarifier's own words, his doctrine and will make readers a twofold follower of hell. That is positive, in a sense. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 11:02, 29 November 2019 (EST)

Dataclarifier's post on my talk page

Earliest historical mention of infant baptism: A.D. 185

The earliest explicit mention of infant baptism is found A.D. 185 in Irenaeus, Against Heresies, Book II, Chapter 22:4.[1]

For He came to save all through means of Himself — all, I say, who through Him are born again to God — infants, and children, and boys, and youths, and old men. He therefore passed through every age, becoming an infant for infants, thus sanctifying infants; a child for children, thus sanctifying those who are of this age, being at the same time made to them an example of piety, righteousness, and submission; a youth for youths, becoming an example to youths, and thus sanctifying them for the Lord. (boldface emphasis added)
This born again is a direct reference to John 3:3-5:
3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
King James Bible (KJV)

The Greek New Testament word for "man" here in John is τις tis "anyone".[2]

See interlinear text of John 3:5. No human being is excluded. Age is not mentioned.

2 things

1. I don't think Irenaeus quote is an an explicit water baptism quote. Historical analysis, which is part of Bible exegesis, is often a spectrum of certainty from 0 to 100 percent. And I don't think a slam dunk case can be made for water baptism using the Irenaeus quote. It's not clear what specifically Irenaeus is declaring here.

After all is said and done, I just leave it to God who is going to be saved before they reach and age where it can be argued they can make decision concerning salvation.

Personally, I do believe in the doctrines related to the implications of origin sin.

I do believe in various matters related to the doctrine of total depravity (See: Matthew 7:11/Luke 11:13 and Total depravity - is it biblical? and Total depravity - Theopedia and The Breadth Of A Hair: John Wesley On Total Depravity.

And as far as Calvinism vs. Arminianism, I know this is true: "John Wesley and Charles Finney were great men of God who took the Arminian position. John Calvin and Charles Spurgeon were great men of God who took the Calvinist position. It is not stupid or immoral or faithless to take either position."[50]

Zondervan Academic states:

Tertullian is the earliest to reference to the practice of infant baptism. He advised against it.

The Apostolic Tradition’s description of the ceremony of baptism shows that it was designed for those who were old enough to take an active part.

In fact, the confession of faith was so integral to baptism that, if a person could not confess the faith themselves, parents or someone else in the family would speak on their behalf.

A century after Tertullian, Cyprian advocated for infant baptism, although for many years this remained the exception to the rule of full immersion. Infant baptism did not become routine until the fifth and sixth centuries.[3]

references

2. As far as John 3:3-5, it is very clear that the first birth of water that Jesus was referring to when talking to Nicodemus is that every person has the first/physical birth which involves the breaking of the water.

Namely, this:

The bursting of the amniotic sac of a mother just prior to childbirth is the birth of "water." We often say of this event, "Her water broke!" Notice in v.6 Jesus reinforces this interpretation when He says, "That which is born of the flesh is flesh," thus linking water with flesh. The flesh-birth is from below; the spiritual, from above."[51]Conservative (talk) 13:16, 15 December 2019 (EST)

regarding Zondervan addition by Conservative to segment Tertullian, On Baptism: A.D. 200

. . . —Thank you. --Dataclarifier (talk) 12:11, 15 December 2019 (EST)

My reply

Today and henceforth, I decided to focus like a laser beam on some off wiki goals I set for myself.
I will briefly say that you and RobSmith have not exactly been paragons of the dialectical method or civil discourse when trying to come up with a infant baptism article. And early on, you wanted to lock the page so no dissenting views could be added. As a result of these two matters, Andy locked the page. I will briefly add that for a short period, I was sucked into the internet drama and responded to your attack on Martin Luther (personally, I think Luther was mixed bag theologically, etc., but obviously being a Protestant, I have some respect for Luther).
Right now and henceforth, except for replying to you, because of off wiki promises I made to people and other matters, I am being strict when it comes to meeting my goals and in time/project management. So I am being strict when it comes to using the internet constuctively. And right now, I have no desire to engage in any internet drama. I wish you and RobSmith had worked something out, but like they say, "If wishes were fishes, we would all have a fry".
If you want the infant baptism article edited and unlocked, the parties of you, RobSmith, 1990sguy, VargasMilan, Shobson20 and Andy Schlafly are going to have to work something out. Conservative (talk) 13:34, 15 December 2019 (EST)
I wish I had more person time to devote to matters outside of the scope of commitments I previously made to people, but this isn't the case. And if I break my promises to people, they are going to be justifiably mad at me. Sometimes it is hard to say no to requests people ask of you, but sometimes this has to be done.Conservative (talk) 13:59, 15 December 2019 (EST)

Response to "I don't think Irenaeus quote is an explicit water baptism quote."

I only reported a documented opinion of experts: an impressive number of them do think it is in fact an explicit water baptism quote.

See Church Fathers - Infant Baptism and Early Teachings on Infant Baptism and Infant Baptism.

Irenaeus [A.D. 189] Against Heresies, Book II, chapter 22—[A.D. 190] Fragment 34

In addition, there is also the list of scholarly academic sources pro and con under Infant baptism#External links.
With respect. --Dataclarifier (talk) 06:43, 21 December 2019 (EST)

There is no mention (above) by Conservative of the following acknowledgement in the article that not all are convinced by Irenaeus quote:

"Those who firmly hold to and maintain the credobaptist doctrine of "believer's baptism" see no evidence of infant baptism in these statements quoted from Irenaeus or in John 3:3-5. "

--Dataclarifier (talk) 08:28, 21 December 2019 (EST)

I just now added a new section for the article with names, quote boxes, and documentation links: Protestant commentaries 1555–1895 in support of infant baptism: Matthew 28:19-20 --Dataclarifier (talk) 13:52, 22 December 2019 (EST)
With addition of R. C. Sproul the new section is expanded: Protestant commentaries 1555–2014 in support of infant baptism: Matthew 28:19-20 --Dataclarifier (talk) 08:32, 24 December 2019 (EST)

Comment on page

This entire page is built upon a premise that scholarship has replaced God's word. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 11:54, 30 January 2020 (EST)

Intro

This whole run-on sentence:

"Schaff says the only opponent of infant baptism among the fathers is the eccentric and schismatic Tertullian, of North Africa, and that the very manner of Tertullian’s opposition proves as much in favor of infant baptism as against it because he meets it not as an innovation, but as a prevalent custom"

is confusing and should probably be reworked. Further, it might not even belong in the Intro. Who is Schaff? Who is Tertullian? My Bible has no Book of Schaff or Book of Tertullian to reference. RobSTrump 2Q2Q 12:44, 27 June 2020 (EDT)

Burning at the stake, Biblical pretext for

This article still retains a See also link to Burning at the stake, Biblical pretext for. That mainspace article has been moved to Burning at the stake, although a Redirect still exists. The mainspace Burning at the stake itself is a controversial article, and thus far the consensus appears to Keep it. However the link here appears to further an argument that a Biblical pretext for burning at the stake exists for those who reject the doctrine of Infant baptism.

I am inclined to both leave the Redirect 'as is' in the See alsos, and not delete the Redirect yet until this article itself is cleaned up. What do others think? RobSFree Kyle! 12:25, 20 October 2020 (EDT)