Debate: Infant baptism

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This is a Debate page. All comments on Infant baptism not directly pertaining to the structure of that article and to the sources of information cited in it have been moved here.


Contents

"Helpless" babies and sinners - Ephesians 2:11-16 and Romans 5:12-19; Romans 5:6-11 and 8:31-39; 2 Timothy 2:13 and 2 Corinthians 1:19-22 and John 10:35

Consider the argument that Jesus died to save the helpless and powerless who have no faith, "having no hope and without God in the world" Ephesians 2:11-16 and Romans 5:12-19.
No one is more helpless than the unborn, newborn, infant, baby, or child in arms who cannot walk, and has no conscious faith and no conscious hope βρέφη brephe (Luke 18:15).
Compare Romans 5:6-11 and 8:31-39
Yet Jesus says, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a man be born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter the kingdom of God."
Taken all together within the context of the whole of the Bible and together with the fact that God cannot contradict Himself, and that scripture cannot be broken, infant baptism is supported by the Bible.
Compare 2 Timothy 2:13; 2 Corinthians 1:19-22; John 10:35.
The word "faith" does not appear in any of these passages. Infants without faith and hope and God are helpless, and God saves them "while they are still helpless" by baptism with water and the word (Ephesians 5:26).
Peace be with you. --Dataclarifier (talk) 01:53, 23 October 2019 (EDT)

After careful reflection and consideration, I have decided it would be useful to adapt the comments immediately above into a brief separate article: Helpless babies and sinners.
--Dataclarifier (talk) 09:14, 23 October 2019 (EDT)
What is salvation?
And please, make your response simple enough that an 8 year old child can understand. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 12:01, 23 October 2019 (EDT)
Let me help you. First, I see you left out the context of Ephesians:
2:8 By grace are ye saved, through faith, and that not of you own; it is a gift from God. - no conditions are placed on grace, other than acceptance. A pardon must be accepted to be valid.
But you are citing it in your second reference,
Romans 5:15: But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man - again, a gift with no conditions.
So grace is a free gift of God - with no conditions (i.e. such as baptism). And salvation is by grace.
The only condition for salvation is acceptance of the gift. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 13:48, 23 October 2019 (EDT)
Your argument seems to be that salvation is some future event, after life in the flesh. To discuss any of this, you need to (1) define salvation; (2) explain why salvation is not for the here and now. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 14:00, 23 October 2019 (EDT)
Salvation is eternal life instead of death, given by baptism now. Simple.
The gift of unmerited salvation which gives eternal life is directly bestowed by the regeneration of baptism (Titus 3:5) "which saves you now" (1 Peter 3:21) ex opere operato, through the ministry of others not of themselves "on behalf of Christ" (2 Corinthians 5:18), on behalf of the same Lord Jesus Christ who does the actual work of the sacrament himself through his blood (1 Peter 1:2), in accordance with the established doctrinal condition demanded by the Lord Jesus Christ himself, "Except a man (Gr τις tis "anyone") be born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter the kingdom of God." John 3:5. This is the free gift of God—with the condition that the Lord himself laid down to be saved. Jesus sanctifies and cleanses "by the washing of water with the word" (Ephesians 5:26). He commanded baptism in Matthew 28:19.
"Why do you call me, Lord, Lord, and do not do what I command?" (Luke 6:46; Matthew 7:21; John 15:10).
Jesus does this from love for a purpose (John 3:17; Ephesians 1:5; Matthew 28:19).
Salvation is the rescue of the soul, by the cleansing blood of Christ on the cross (1 John 1:7) through the washing of water with the word, that the soul might be born again (regenerated) by water and the Spirit, saved from the everlasting ruin of sin, saved for "good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them." (Romans 2:7; 1 John 3:7; James 2:24). Babies saved by the salvation of baptism grow up to serve the Lord by the power of the grace bestowed through salvation by regeneration, by the washing of water with the word, born again by water and the Spirit, buried with him in baptism—saved from the wrath to come on those who are not cleansed of their sin (1 John 3:10; 2 Corinthians 7:1; Revelation 20:15; 22:14-15). The essence of salvation, and the result of salvation, bestowed on the helpless sinner is a partaking of the divine nature (2 Peter 1:4) by the everlasting life of God in Christ Jesus poured out on the helpless soul (Romans 5:6) by "water and the Spirit", and the eucharist, which bestows the "life that now is and is to come" 1 Timothy 4:8.
Read the article Did Jesus or the apostles heal everyone because of their faith? - Let Us Reason Ministries (letusreason.org).
--Dataclarifier (talk) 03:10, 27 October 2019 (EDT)
Ok. A rather full, complete response. Now, When does salvation begin?
And you know my next question, Can a person loose their salvation? Is God's promise of salvation limited? Can "salvation by baptism" be lost? RobSDe Plorabus Unum 12:46, 27 October 2019 (EDT)
Salvation begins with baptism. See the Catechism of the Catholic Church, 1213-1284 and 1987-2029. God loves the whole world so much (John 3:16-17) that he is "not willing that any should perish" 2 Peter 3:9. The doctrine that salvation can be lost, that it can be rescinded, revoked and forfeited by mortal sin, is covered in the article Eternal security (salvation). Abundant supporting Bible passages regarding the danger of losing salvation are listed and quoted there. It is also already adequately covered here in this article Infant baptism. From your question above, you either forgot the material covered in the article here, which fully answers your question, or you did not actually read it. If you did read it, please read it again. (1&nbap; Peter 3:15)
(by the way, you misspelled "lose", as in lost. "loose" is to release, set free, unfasten.)
--Dataclarifier (talk) 17:22, 27 October 2019 (EDT)
Baptism does not save. The blood of Jesus saves. And eternal life does not mean eternal life, I suppose; God must be a liar, then. And you nullify the doctrine of grace and and death of Jesus if you think mortal sin can undo the work of Christ.
Who needs Jesus? and what did he die for? if we are still judged by our works (being baptized) or mortal sins? Grace, I suppose is non-existent. And when God promised eternal life, it wasn't contingent on God's sacrifice of his Son, but still on your own works is what you are preaching.
This people worships me with their lips, but their heart is far from me, teaching as commandments the doctrines of men
See also Mark chapter 7: “You have a fine way of rejecting the commandment of God in order to establish your tradition!....13 thus making void the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And many such things you do.”
Let me point out the obvious error - without shedding of blood there is no remission. Baptism is by water, not of blood. You are offering a bloodless sacrifice of your works, rejecting the work of Christ, to establish your own tradition.. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 17:43, 27 October 2019 (EDT)
1 Peter 3:21 "baptism doth also now save us." —You deny this.
John 3:5 "Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born (regenerated) of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." —You contradict this.
Hebrews 10:26 "if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins."
2 Peter 2:20 "For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning." —You deny this.
2 Peter 3:17 "beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness." —You deny this warning.
1 Corinthians 10:12 "Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall." —You deny this danger.
2 John 8 "Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward."
1 Timothy 6:3 "If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;" 1 Timothy 6:4 "He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings" 1 Timothy 6:5 "Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself."
2 Timothy 2:14 "Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers."
Titus 3:9 "But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain."
Titus 3:10 "A man that is an heretic after the first and second admonition reject;"
Titus 3:11 "Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself."
Mark 7:9 "Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition."
Rob, you deny scripture for the sake of your tradition. I stand by the Bible. Baptism saves by the blood of Christ. And Christian believers must be careful not to lose their reward. James 5:19-20.
Semper Fi ! --Dataclarifier (talk) 18:56, 27 October 2019 (EDT)
It is the blood of Christ that saves, not water baptism. Eternal life means eternal life. While we yet sinners (helpless), Christ died. There is nothing you can do to save your self, other than faith in the finished work of Christ. For by grace are ye saved, not baptism. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 19:12, 27 October 2019 (EDT)
1 Peter 3:21 "baptism doth also now save us."
John 3:5 "Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born (regenerated) of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."
I will not debate this further. It is evident you contradict the Bible. A perfect example of Confirmation bias and Fallacy of invincible ignorance. I will die before I ever deny the word of Jesus Christ.
--Dataclarifier (talk) 19:33, 27 October 2019 (EDT)
One flaw: I asked What is salvation? You responded with church doctrine and church tradition, Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 19:49, 27 October 2019 (EDT)
The Bible says "baptism now saves us." That's salvation. Clearly, no debate. --Dataclarifier (talk) 20:07, 27 October 2019 (EDT)
Without shedding of blood there is no remission. I suspect the problem is you do not under stand what salvation is.
Lean what salvation is first, then we'll talk about being immersed in the word, or baptism in the spirit (same thing). RobSDe Plorabus Unum 20:12, 27 October 2019 (EDT)

Salvation

Let's go back to John 3:3,5. Jesus first says,

Except a man be born again, he cannot see the Kingdom of God.

In verse 5 he says.

Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God.

So, what is the difference between "seeing" the Kingdom of God, and "entering" the Kingdom of God? Moses saw the Promised Land, but did not enter. Was Moses saved? RobSDe Plorabus Unum 20:25, 27 October 2019 (EDT)


Ok, let's go to the next level, which only the Spirit of God can reveal:

John 1:27 No man hath seen God at any time
Exodus 33:11 The Lord spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh to his friend

Now, being immersed in the spirit, reconcile for me these two passages, and I'll believe that you are not unskillful in the word of God. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 22:41, 27 October 2019 (EDT)

we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
But we have the mind of Christ.
So, to restate: No (natural) man hath seen God at any time... Moses had the mind of Christ enabling him to speak with the Lord face to face.
Exodus 33:13: Now therefore, I pray thee, if I have found grace in thy sight, shew me now thy way, that I may know thee, that I may find grace in thy sight
Salvation is by grace. You must have the mind of Christ, without which no man can see God (or see the Kingdom of God)
It's pretty simple. It's not rocket science. God never intended it to be a scholarly exercise. It's gotta be simple enough for a child to understand. Just remember, That which is flesh is flesh, that which is spirit is spirit. Baptism is of the spirit, not of the flesh. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 03:46, 28 October 2019 (EDT)


Fundamental Salvation
For the benefit of other readers here, it is evident that you did not read the two links I provided for direct access to the Catechism of the Catholic Church, which affirms your last statement above "Baptism is of the spirit, not of the flesh" (1213-1284 and 1987-2029).
It's pretty simple. Baptism saves the soul. A child can understand that.
You asked me to answer the question, "What is salvation?" I gave you my answer from the Bible. The Bible answer to the question "What is salvation?" is set forth fully in the Catechism of the Catholic Church as a reiteration of all that the Bible says. The Catechism defines salvation from scripture alone, using abundant citations and quotations from scripture, with literal conclusions from scripture, drawn from the common understanding of the Church Fathers east and west, who based all they said on the literal sense of scripture, the sensus fidelium, sensus plenior and sensus Christianorum of Christianity, faithfully expressing "the mind of Christ", so that what you rejected as "traditions of men" is in fact the teaching of scripture, "and the scripture cannot be broken" (John 10:35; Mark 12:24; 1 Corinthians 15:34).
I can say this because I am primarily and fundamentally a Bible apologist, who just happens to be Catholic. I was raised a Baptist. I know the Bible. I am 72 years old and I have read it cover to cover 82 times since before the age of 12 when I finally "went forward and accepted Jesus as my personal Lord and Savior" and was baptized by full immersion at Grace Baptist Church (Conservative Baptist) in Des Moines, Iowa, in the spring of 1959. Shortly afterward I was appointed by the pastor as one of the "youth conversion counsellors" of newly baptized young teen converts and made one of the leaders of our Youth Group, and actively joined "Youth for Christ". Years later, as an adult, by fervent prayer, and by my knowledge of scripture and history and finding out by careful investigation what Catholicism and Orthodoxy actually teaches (which is not what I had been told they teach), at age 33 the Lord Jesus led me to embrace the Catholic Church as the most biblically faithful Church on the face of the earth. I held to three fundamental scripture passages:
Galatians 1:6-9; 1 John 2:18-19; and John 14:16-17 with John 16:12-14.
I looked for a church that did not come out of another church and teach a doctrine different from the church it came out of. Only one church qualified historically and scripturally. People asked me, "How can you do that?" I said, "Because I believe the Bible. Let me show you." I stand on the firm foundation of the doctrine of the Bible which includes all "authority established by God" (Romans 13:1-10; Hebrews 13:17; 1 Peter 2:13-17). The established Church has "the mind of Christ".
Rejection of scripture written by men who were sent by the Lord, is rejection of the word of the Lord who was sent by the Father, and rejection of the word of the Lord who was sent by God is rejection of the Lord who sent Him (Luke 10:16; Matthew 10:40; Luke 9:48; John 13:20; 12:48). The full context of the teaching of the Bible itself according to the whole of the first sixteen centuries of consistent Christian understanding of salvation through the blood of Christ alone, poured out by the Holy Spirit of Christ (Romans 8:9-11) in baptism with water (1 John 5:6; 1 Corinthians 6:11; Revelation 1:5), was the reason the whole Christian Church, Catholic, Orthodox and mainstream Protestant together, guided by the Holy Spirit (John 14:16 and 26; 16:13-14; Matthew 28:19-20), condemned the credobaptism doctrine of the Anabaptists and Baptists as a doctrine of Satan himself. What they say I say with them. This is my final answer. You will not hear from me again on this page.
Proverbs 28:9 — also 18:1; 20:3; 22:10; 26:12; 27:3; 30:5.
--Dataclarifier (talk) 13:42, 28 October 2019 (EDT)

Was the gospel preached to Israel in the wilderness?

Very well. Was the gospel preached to Israel in the wilderness? Hebs: 4:2 RobSDe Plorabus Unum 13:59, 28 October 2019 (EDT)
Erroneous links have been corrected. My sincerest apology for access error. --Dataclarifier (talk) 16:52, 28 October 2019 (EDT)
So, was the gospel preached to Israel in wilderness?
Remember, death reigned from Adam to Moses (Rom. 5:14). Are you arguing that Law gave life? Or was the gospel preached to Israel in the wilderness?
RobSDe Plorabus Unum 17:23, 28 October 2019 (EDT)
[1] [2] [3] --Dataclarifier (talk) 18:08, 28 October 2019 (EDT)
So, I'll take that as being affirmative. The gospel was indeed preached to Israel in the wilderness. What gospel was preached? the gospel of grace? the gospel of salvation? the gospel of the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ? RobSDe Plorabus Unum 18:25, 28 October 2019 (EDT)
It wasn't affirmative. If you had read the links I provided you would have seen the answer was not affirmative. --Dataclarifier (talk) 18:45, 30 October 2019 (EDT)
I took it as affirmative when you re-posted my link to Hebrews 4:2 above, and a quotation from some Pascal teaching. Yes or no, Was the gospel preached to Israel in the wilderness? Use scripture to support your claims, not Pharisaical traditions. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 18:59, 30 October 2019 (EDT)


Two clues:
Exodus 33:12: And Moses said unto the Lord, See, thou sayest unto me, Bring up this people: and thou hast not let me know whom thou wilt send with me.
John 5:39: Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. Also,
Luke 24:44 These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.
So what are we to conclude? The Gospel of salvation by grace was preached to Israel in the wilderness before the Law of Moses was given. But they could not enter in because of disbelief. Because of rejection of God's grace, and God's salvation, they were given Law. And the Law cannot give life. The Law cannot save.
Salvation is by grace, through faith. Baptism (other than spiritual baptism), i.e. baptism in the flesh, had nothing to do with it.
If you want to dispute this, show me where Moses preached water baptism? RobSDe Plorabus Unum 21:24, 28 October 2019 (EDT)
[4] [5] [6] [7] [8] [9] [10] [11] [12] [13] [14] [15] [16] [17]
--Dataclarifier (talk) 23:59, 28 October 2019 (EDT)
The law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.
So, you cited a bunch of texts from the Law of Moses; but that doesn't answer the question. You haven't provided anything to answer What is salvation?, or an understanding of grace. All you've done is post Mosaic Law and church doctrine.
That which is flesh is flesh. That which is spirit is spirit.
The natural man cannot understand the things of God.
You're proving the truth of the Word of God by evading a simple question, clinging to Law and church doctrine, and ignoring the gospel of grace. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 00:26, 29 October 2019 (EDT)
[18] [19] [20] [21] [22] [23]--Dataclarifier (talk) 00:40, 29 October 2019 (EDT)
More church doctrine, rendering the word of God to no effect.
IOWs, Moses set before the people a choice between God's Law and God's grace. The people chose Law (and their carcasses fell in the wilderness).
Rom. 7:10: And the commandment, which was to bring life, I found to bring death.
Rom. 4:15: For the law brings wrath
Rom. 8:6: to be carnally minded [the natural man] is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
Rom. 5:9 having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him.
You're just preaching wrath and law, not the gospel of life, peace, and grace. A gospel of works, 'which is no gospel at all (Gal. 1:7).
The early Apostles had this debate, Ye must be circumcised, the same as "ye must be physically baptized." Circumcision is of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter (Rom. 2:29). RobSDe Plorabus Unum 01:08, 29 October 2019 (EDT)
Oh, and there is no "going forth unto the nations" if you don't know what the gospel of salvation by grace is. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 01:12, 29 October 2019 (EDT)
The flesh profiteth nothing. Let me be more specific - baptism in the flesh profiteth nothing. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 12:04, 29 October 2019 (EDT)
  • I'm with Rob on this, Baptism isn't what saves a person, the blood of Jesus Christ is. When the scriptures talk about being born in water and in spirit, being born in water is referring to being physically born (there is water in the mother's womb), and being born in spirit refers to being born again. DMorris (talk) 20:44, 8 November 2019 (EST)

Regenerative salvation by water and the Spirit: water baptism saves

Although I said above that I would not be heard again on this page, I thought it would be useful to the reader to have a summary of what the word of God says (see the article):

  • Unless one is regenerated by water and the Spirit, one cannot enter the kingdom of God. John 3:5
  • Baptism saves you now. 1 Peter 3:21
  • Go forth and make disciples of all nations, Baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. Matthew 28:19
  • This is he who came by water and blood, Jesus Christ, not with the water only but with the water and the blood. 1 John 5:6
  • There are three witnesses, the Spirit, the water, and the blood; and these three agree. 1 John 5:8
  • Jesus saves us by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit. Titus 3:5
  • With our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. Hebrews 10:22
  • The whole church is sanctified by Christ, cleansing her by the washing of water with the word. Ephesians 5:26
  • Be baptized, and wash away your sins. Acts 22:16
  • Be baptized. The promise of salvation is to you and to your children. Acts 2:38 and 2:39
  • Let the children come to me, and do not forbid them, for to such as these belongs the kingdom of God. Luke 18:16
  • Verily, verily, I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God as a little child shall not enter it. Luke 18:17
  • God is not willing that any should perish. 2 Peter 3:9
  • We are buried with Christ in baptism, in which we are raised again through faith in the working of God, God making us alive together with him. Colossians 2:12 and 2:13
  • To the thirsty I will give water without price from the fountain of the water of life. Revelation 21:6
  • A fountain springing up to eternal life. John 4:14
  • Whoever rejects Jesus and does not receive his sayings has a judge; the word that Jesus has spoken will be his judge on the last day. John 12:4712:48
  • He who is of God hears the words of God; the reason why you do not hear them is that you are not of God. John 8:47
    Except a man be born again of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. Be baptized and wash away your sins. Baptism saves us now, by water and the blood.
  • He who despises the word brings destruction on himself. When anyone turns away from hearing the word of God, even his prayer is an abomination. Proverbs 13:13 and 28:9

The word of the Lord. Thanks be to God.
--Dataclarifier (talk) 18:25, 29 October 2019 (EDT)

  • That which is flesh is flesh, that which is spirit is spirit
  • God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth
  • they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
Water baptism is of the flesh. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 18:50, 29 October 2019 (EDT)
No, it is not. It is of God. The Bible itself says that God the Holy Spirit baptizes through water. Christian baptism is not of the flesh. It was established by Jesus Himself as necessary to enter the kingdom of God. Christian water baptism is the work of God who baptizes with water and the Spirit together to regenerate life. It is not man who baptizes, and water alone devoid of the sanctifying Spirit of God is not Christian baptism. By the regeneration (γεννεθή gennethe) of baptism of water and the Spirit a person is enabled by the Spirit of God to worship God in spirit and in truth and given the power to please God.
According to the Bible Christian Baptism is a divinely ordained union of the operation "of water and the Spirit" together in God by the blood of Christ who alone sanctifies us, having cleansed us by the washing of water with the word. Christian Baptism is not a water ritual empty of the Spirit and totally separated from the blood of Christ. Food itself is made holy by prayer 1 Timothy 4:5. So water is made holy with the word. To speak of Christian Baptism as if it is merely a symbolic ritual of the flesh alone, utterly devoid of the sanctifying power of the Holy Spirit Himself directly applying the saving blood of Christ to the soul, is not to speak of Christian Baptism at all.
"God is Spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and in truth." True. God also is material flesh incarnate—"And you...he has now reconciled in his body of flesh by his death, in order to present you holy and blameless and irreproachable before him, provided that you continue in the faith, stable and steadfast, not shifting from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which has been preached to every creature under heaven"–for "the word became flesh and dwelt among us", the Holy Spirit descended and remained upon him at baptism, and we have an altar from which those who serve the Jewish Tabernacle have no right to eat. (John 4:24; Colossians 1:21-23; John 1:14; Hebrews 13:10.)
The belief that God can not, does not, will not work his grace of salvation through the instrument of material water in union with the spiritual word of God by the power of the Holy Spirit is similar to the doctrine of Docetism which held that the purity of God the Word, the Son of the Father, could not personally defile himself by becoming incarnate human flesh, because it is impossible that pure spirit can ever interact with impure matter, "having flesh and bones". His appearance was only a symbolic vision, not the personal reality of Himself, so that it was impossible that Jesus could really shed his blood, die on the cross, be dead, and actually rise from the dead. God has no need whatever for any material means of effecting salvation. John refuted this in the first words of his Gospel (John 1:1-18). Credobaptism absolutely denies, repudiates and condemns the claim that God ever would or ever could work salvation directly through any kind of proper material ministry of Christian Baptism by water and the Spirit, which he himself ordained in John 3:3-5 and Matthew 28:19-20 ex opere operato. God waits helplessly for man to open the door of his heart by faith so that the Lord might come in to him. The doctrine of salvation by faith alone is totally dependent on the willing cooperation of man who must first know and understand and believe before God can save him. Infants cannot do that. By this reasoning salvation by faith is a work of man, and baptism is not the cause of spiritual regeneration because it is only a legal ordinance of water without the power of the Spirit.
Consistently, on the basis of sacred scripture, and because of scripture, the catholic and orthodox Christian Church east and west has condemned as a heresy the doctrine that baptism has no power from God, that Jesus did not establish the sacrament of baptism as the ordinary means of salvation by water and the Spirit, and that salvation is sola fide without any need for works of mercy, condemning also as a heresy the doctrine that eternal life once received by faith alone cannot be lost, rescinded, revoked, or forfeited by sin and apostasy, the doctrine of eternal security.
This entire Talk page, and the debate represented on it by myself and RobS above, is to my thinking an excellent companion article to Infant baptism. RobS has vigorously argued and persistently defended the doctrine of credobaptism and salvation sola fide. I count it a privilege to have contributed as clearly as possible without misrepresentation or distortion the Catholic doctrine of regenerative baptism unto everlasting life by the saving power of the blood of Jesus Christ alone, by reasoning based on the Bible. To all who read this page, thank you, and may God richly bless you and guide you into the fullness of truth. Amen. --Dataclarifier (talk) 04:59, 30 October 2019 (EDT)

Were any Old Testament figures saved by grace or baptism?

1 Cor. 10:4 all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
Exodus 33: And the LORD said unto Moses, I will do this thing also that thou hast spoken: for thou hast found grace in my sight
Behold, there is a place by me, and thou shalt stand upon a rock RobSDe Plorabus Unum 12:49, 30 October 2019 (EDT)
Next question: Was Job saved? Were Zachariah and Elisabeth saved? Were Simeon and Anna (Luke 2) saved? Was David saved? and Solomon (relates to the question of Eternal security, as well)? And a real tuff one, was Manassah saved?
We know Abraham was saved (Gal 3:6, Rom 4:3) long before there ever was a Law of Moses or doctrine of baptisms. We know righteous Abel was saved, as well, because he understood the necessity of a blood sacrifice.
So the gospel of salvation by grace has been preached since the beginning, long before the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ took place in fulfillment of the scriptures. But we see some could not enter in, because of disbelief (lack of faith).
The Law (or "the letter") killeth. Grace gives life. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 14:51, 30 October 2019 (EDT)
"So the gospel of salvation by grace has been preached since the beginning, long before the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ took place in fulfillment of the scriptures." You say they were already saved before any of this took place.
Either you have done away with the need for Christ by the credobaptist doctrine of salvation by faith alone sola fide, or you have confirmed the doctrine of "baptism of desire" by which all those "spirits in prison" were freed by the preaching of Christ himself because of their hope which waited (they were forced to wait) for his baptism of them in fulfillment of their desire for salvation 1 Peter 3:18-21. Catechism of the Catholic Church, 1260
"Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity."
Hebrews 11:39-40 says most explicitly,
"And all these, though well attested by their faith, did not receive what was promised, since God had foreseen something better for us, that apart from us they should not be made perfect.
They had to wait, because they had not yet been saved by the blood of Jesus Christ and had not yet been born again of water and the Spirit.
--Dataclarifier (talk) 16:04, 30 October 2019 (EDT)
Was Abraham saved?
Rom 4: 1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness, etc.
Cite scripture for your response, not church tradition, church doctrine, Catholic catechism, or any other teaching of man. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 16:12, 30 October 2019 (EDT)
I did cite scripture. My response each time was solidly based on scripture. Church doctrine supports scripture. You reject fundamental parts of the Bible and twist its meaning for the sake of your credobaptist tradition, "a tradition of men", which the vast body of all Christianity in the sixteenth century, solidly based on scripture (on the whole context of the entire Bible), denounced as a Satanic heresy based on violation of the Bible itself. Cafeteria Christianity#Proof texts. And I will not reject Christian doctrine based for over sixteen centuries on the whole context of the Bible and the "mind of Christ" in the sensus fidelium, sensus plenior, sensus Christianorum in all of the passages of the Bible I have cited all down through this page. I am heedful of the warning of Peter 1 Peter 3:15-18. However much you press me to do so, I will not deny Christ. --Dataclarifier (talk) 16:38, 30 October 2019 (EDT)
You haven't answered the question: Was Abraham saved? RobSDe Plorabus Unum 17:15, 30 October 2019 (EDT)

What have we learned from our father, Abraham?

Abraham was instructed to take his son, thine only son, and kill him. Not wavering in faith, Abraham never doubted that God would resurrect him somehow to fulfill God's promise to multiply Abraham's seed as the stars of the sky. Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned (or imputed) unto him as righteousness.

Rom 5: 1 Having been declared righteous, then, by faith, we have peace toward God through our Lord Jesus Christ,
2 through whom also we have the access by the faith into this grace in which we have stood

Where was Abraham ever baptized? before the law of baptisms was ever was given (Leviticus, and elsewhere)? Abraham was circumcised, but circumcision is of the heart, not of the flesh. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 17:39, 30 October 2019 (EDT)


I see you've avoided answering this key New Testament question (Romans chapter 4 and Galatians) now for 4 days. Here's the Answer:
Abraham was saved by belief (faith) in the resurrection. He was justified by his faith, and saved from wrath, and saved from the works of the Law. Abraham was a blood washed, born again Christian. We also now by faith have access into this same grace.
Maybe now you can understand the verses referring to before the foundations of the earth were laid, or In the beginning was the word. or from everlasting to everlasting, or I am Alpha and Omega, or predestined and foreordained, or there is no new thing under the sun.
Do not avoid this question - it is foundational to any man of faith.
Faith is quite simple - it is trust. Trust in God. Trust in God's word. Trust in God over our own understanding and reasoned judgements.
To rely on ourselves, rather than accept God, God's word, and God's teaching, is pride - what St. Valentine and the Catholic church call original sin. It was the sin of Lucifer - making himself out to be God. It was the sin of Adam - rejecting God to worship and serve the creature more than the Creator. It is the sin of everyone who rejects the Gospel of Grace in favor of a doctrine of Law, that by welldoing you can earn your standing with God. God see's rejection of the sacrifice of his son as pride. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 08:14, 3 November 2019 (EST)

Exodus chapter 33

1 Cor. 10:4 all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
Exodus 33: And the LORD said unto Moses, I will do this thing also that thou hast spoken: for thou hast found grace in my sight
Behold, there is a place by me, and thou shalt stand upon a rock RobSDe Plorabus Unum 12:49, 30 October 2019 (EDT)
God also told Moses, "My face you shall not see, for no one can see my face and live" (Exodus 33:18-23). Moses and Aaron, Nadab and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel went up on the mountain, and they did see the God of Israel up on the top of the peak, but only from a distance, not up close (Exodus 24:9-11). Abuse of the statement that Moses talked with God "face to face" has been competently answered by qualified biblical scholars as a Semitic expression of intimate friendship of communion, not a pre-incarnate appearance of Jesus face to face, nor a direct visual encounter of the Beatific vision. These scholars also explain that the "gospel" preached to Israel in the wilderness of Sanai was not the Christian revelation, but the good news in the law revealed to Moses explaining the rewards of obedience "if you obey my word". That message included the promise of a Prophet to come.
In answer to the challenge of reconciling Moses and John – Take a look at the commentaries on Deuteronomy 5:4 "The LORD spoke with you face to face at the mountain, out of the midst of fire." Their answer is mine also. Moses beheld the presence of the Lord, and spoke with Him "face to face", but he did not see the face of God. The scholars have explained all this. I agree with them. The challenge to reconcile Moses and John has been met and answered already. Their response is my response as well. This makes me and them "competent to explain" the scriptures according to "the mind of Christ".
That's your response?
  • Mark 7:13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 15:58, 30 October 2019 (EDT)
God didn't mean what he said, or he was too stupid to clarify himself. He needed human scholars and teachers to set it straight, huh? RobSDe Plorabus Unum 15:59, 30 October 2019 (EDT)
He said, "Except a man be born again of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God." It is you who make the word of God of no effect through your credobaptist tradition. That is why credobaptists in the sixteenth century were condemned by Protestants and Catholics for abuse of the scriptures. Documented anathemas against credobaptism go all the way back to the 3rd century. And Protestants agreed.
Conservative Christian historians and apologists are mindful of this statement by John Eck addressed to Martin Luther, in the year 1521:[1]
"...there is no one of the heresies which have torn the bosom of the church, which has not derived its origin from the various interpretation of the Scripture. The Bible itself is the arsenal whence each innovator has drawn his deceptive arguments. It was with biblical texts that Pelagius and Arius maintained their doctrines. Arius, for instance, found the negation of the eternity of the Word—an eternity which you admit, in this verse of the New Testament—Joseph knew not his wife till she had brought forth her first-born son; and he said, in the same way that you say, that this passage enchained him. When the fathers of the council of Constance condemned this proposition of John HussThe church of Jesus Christ is only the community of the elect, they condemned an error; for the church, like a good mother, embraces within her arms all who bear the name of Christian, all who are called to enjoy the celestial beatitude."[2]
(Compare the article on Hypocrites.) --Dataclarifier (talk) 16:59, 30 October 2019 (EDT)
Did God speak to Moses face to face, as a man speaketh to his friend (Martin Luther has nothing to do with this question). The answer is a simple 'yes' or 'no'.
The next question is: Are there contradictions in the bible? Is the bible inviolate? (Here, scholars, church teaching, and church tradition can't help you. Your response is entirely dependent on your faith). RobSDe Plorabus Unum 17:11, 30 October 2019 (EDT)
The Pentecostal article below is a rebuttal of your position, and is presented here as my response. Jesus saved many people without their faith. That includes babies, Old Testament saints, and all pagans who never had opportunity to hear the Gospel, who would have accepted baptism by water and the Spirit if they had known of its necessity.
"Here, scholars, church teaching, and church tradition can't help you." Devout scholars, church teaching, and church tradition do help. But you refuse to accept it (John 10:25-26). Your refusal is a clear example of classic Confirmation bias. All of the centuries-old consistent understanding of the Bible by all of Christendom based on the Bible is held in contempt by you. Even when presented with an abundance of scripture alone which demolishes the house of credobaptist doctrine as clearly opposed to the Bible, you reject it. Matthew 23:38. I had thought that you were a person of honest Christian integrity dedicated to the truth of the Bible. From the way you worded some of your answers I believe that you actually refused on principle to read the authoritative Bible texts and sources linked for immediate access which contradict credobaptism. Look at the article on Enmity.
Some of the people who read this page when I showed it to them said you were being sarcastic, and are someone who always has to have the "last word" no matter what is said. They told me I was wasting all my time and energy on this page in a pointless exercise of unending futility. They said if you ever change your mind, it won't be because of me. They said just leave it to the Lord and he will deal with you.
I have been patient with you, and firm. I am also grateful. Because of your challenges I have carefully re-read the Bible like the long-ago Beroeans of Acts 17:11, and the fruit of all this is that I have gained a much deeper insight to what it was like for Jesus to debate with the scribes and Sadducees and Pharisees who refused to listen to him even when he cited the scriptures. And I have an even deeper and more loving appreciation of Him as a true man, both fully human and fully God. The result of this research was the abundance of Bible texts cited in context all down this page which clearly support the doctrine of regenerative baptism against credobaptism "salvation by faith alone sola fide". I had constant recourse to the help of Strong's Exhaustive Concordance with its Hebrew and Greek dictionaries of the Old and New Testaments. I will have no more to do with you, as Paul advised Titus 3:10. --Dataclarifier (talk) 18:17, 30 October 2019 (EDT)
So, I'm taking your response to mean (a) the bible has contradictions, and (b) the bible is not inviolate.
Is that correct? I don't want to put words in your mouth.
I never once used the term "credobaptism". The word does not appear anywhere in the bible, as I understand and/or are familiar with it (look it up in Strong's if you don't believe me). It is entirely your invention in this discussion. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 18:43, 30 October 2019 (EDT)
Lastly, your posting below is simply more church doctrine from somewhere irrelevant to this discussion. Spamming the page has not helped any of your arguments; it's more reminiscent of Christ's warnings about other Pharisaical teachings: they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 18:51, 30 October 2019 (EDT)
'Let your answers be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil.' (Matt 5:37) - affirming what is, and what is not, the Word of God. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 19:38, 30 October 2019 (EDT)
One final comment: God is not an intellectual exercise.
  • He catcheth the crafty in their craftiness
  • I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent. Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
I learned from Catholic catechism that 7 years of age is the "age of reason;" by 10 I had it figured out and left the church. God's teaching must be simple enough for a child to understand.
I can appreciate the teaching of the Catholic church. At the age of 8, as an altar boy, I recall a high mass on Easter Sunday, where me, the priest, and 3 other altar boys sat down at the beginning of the mass. I wanted to rise up and perform the service, but the priest signaled to me to remain seated. The Gospel reading that day was from Hebrews, chapter 10:12 stood out to emphasize the point and symbolism: "when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down". All else is extraneous. For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his. (Heb 4:10). "It is finished (John 19:39). I'm grateful to the Catholic church for having taught me God's word, but all the calisthenics and hand-washing is extraneous. The message is simple. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 00:45, 31 October 2019 (EDT)

Back to Exodus 33 (I love this chapter). So, what is the Gospel? Again, it must be simple enough for a child to understand. For expedience sake, I'm going to thumbnail and encapsulate it in John 15:13: Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends

Disclaimer: we all know it's much more but for expedience sake I'm using this verse.

Now, we have to back up momentarily to Exodus 32 (verse 10-32 for complete context). Verse 31-32 Moses says Oh, this people have sinned a great sin, and have made them gods of gold. Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin--; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written.

This is the Spirit of Christ speaking. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 12:56, 1 November 2019 (EDT)

"The Church cannot save" is not in the Bible; "Baptism does not save" is not in the Bible; "Born again by faith" is not in the Bible

  • There are 80 listings in Strong's under CHURCH έκκλησία ekklesia.
    There is in the New Testament of the Bible no direct statement in any form anywhere that explicitly states that the Church cannot save (you, anyone), that salvation is not in the Church, or that membership in the Church cannot save (you, anyone).
    A search online at Topical Bible: church and Topical Bible: Church: Membership In does not produce any passages under the key words "church" or "church membership" that teach any form of the doctrine that the Church cannot save, as repeatedly and persistently asserted here on this page.
    You won't find it. I've looked.
    Look at 100 Bible Verses about Church Membership.
    It may be that what is meant in reality by the assertion that membership in a church cannot save is that church membership alone cannot guarantee salvation. The Catholic Church agrees. According to Catholic doctrine it is possible to lose the saving grace of one's baptismal salvation through loss of faith or by falling away from Christ into apostasy away from the body of the Church, which is his body, the temple of the Spirit. But it can be restored, through the Sacrament of Penance and Reconciliation (Confession) to a member of the Church having the ministry of reconciliation (2 Corinthians 5:18-20).
Cite chapter and verse in the New Testament that says explicitly that "no church can save" or that "salvation is not from the church" or "salvation is not found in the church (any church)" or that "the church cannot save you" (and never did) or that "church membership cannot save" (you, anyone). The passage must have the word "church" as used frequently in denials of its necessity for salvation on this page.
Cite chapter and verse in the New Testament that says explicitly that "baptism does not save" (us, you, anyone) "now" or that "baptism cannot save you" (us, anyone) and never has, and never did or that "salvation is not through baptism" or that " membership in the body of Christ by baptism into Christ cannot save" (us, you, anyone) or that "baptism is not for infants and babies" or that "babies should not be baptized until they can confess faith in Jesus". The passage must have the key word "baptism" as used frequently in denials of its necessity for salvation on this page, and in the case of babies "infant baptism" or "baptized infants" together with the key words "must not", "cannot", "forbidden", "false", "unnecessary".
  • The phrase "born again by faith in the word of God", "born again by faith in the Lord", "born again by faith", is not found in the New Testament.
    Look at 100 Bible Verses about Being Born Again (openbible.info).
    Being saved by faith is proclaimed.
    Being born of God is proclaimed.
    Being born by the washing of regeneration is proclaimed.
    Being saved by the blood of Christ is proclaimed.
    But no passage of scripture has the explicit phrase "born by faith" or "born again by faith". The term "born again" is not found together with the term "faith" in any text of the Bible. The term "born again" is not found together with the term "saved" in any passage of the Bible.
  • See the main page of this article under "Regenerate" in John 3:3-5: Greek γεννηθή gennethe. The Greek text of the New Testament itself teaches regenerative baptism, which has been absolutely denied on this page by the frequent and persistent assertion that baptism is unnecessary for salvation and does not save because it opposes salvation by faith alone sola fide. The plain and obvious reality of γεννηθή gennethe as spiritual regeneration of the soul from death to life is directly asserted as truth without any recourse to Church doctrine or tradition or academic scholarship and exegesis. It's solely what the Bible says, plain and simple. See the interlinear text of John 3:3 and John 3:4 and John 3:5. Anyone who says Jesus is wrong, by actually saying γεννηθή gennethe by water and the Spirit is not regeneration unto life, opposes the word of the Lord. Whether knowingly or unknowingly doing so makes no difference. It is a falsehood. Denial contradicts the Bible and puts no faith in Jesus' word as truth. That alone condemns as not of God the point of view that "the washing of water with the word" Ephesians 5:26, baptism with water consecrated by the word of God, can not, does not, never has, and never will save by regeneration unto eternal life, by joining the baptized to the very body of Jesus Christ himself as a living member of his body in whom is no sin.
  • Bring forth the scripture that explicitly states "baptism does not save, baptism cannot save", "the Church does not save, the Church cannot save", and "membership in the Church does not save", or that "membership in the Church eternally assures salvation" (which Catholic doctrine also rejects)—Chapter and verse, with words "church", "membership", "baptism" (cannot, does not) "save", "salvation". Show the Bible passage that explicitly says in any form "born again by faith." (You can't. I know, because I looked, and tried to find it. "Baptism cannot save"—"The church cannot save"—"Born again by faith alone" (babies who die have no faith). It can't be found. It's not in the Bible.)
If you cannot find such passages in the Bible to support the assertions made here about salvation by faith alone—salvation without the necessity of baptismal rebirth by water and the Spirit with the word of God and "working out your own salvation" by sustaining Corporal and spiritual works of mercy (Philippians 2:12-13; Ephesians 2:8-10)—if you cannot find such passages in the Bible, then it is undeniable proof that the doctrine you have been defending here on this page is not of God. It's not in the Bible. If not, then it either comes from the flesh alone, or from some other place, not from God. In any case it absolutely opposes the truth of the Gospel of salvation through γεννηθή gennethe regeneration by water and the Spirit with the word of God and is rightly condemned as a false gospel teaching "another Jesus" qualifying for Paul's anathema. Maranatha (2 Corinthians 11:4; 1 Corinthians 16:22). It is a rejection of the obedience that Jesus commanded in Matthew 18:15-20, the obedience of faith in the Church he built, his body and the temple of the Holy Spirit, the church gathered in the name of the Lord.
James 5:20.
--Dataclarifier (talk) 19:39, 1 November 2019 (EDT)
More spam. Answer a simple question: Was Abraham saved? RobSDe Plorabus Unum 23:48, 1 November 2019 (EDT)
I have a problem with this mode of argument. Some people don't know that the word "Trinity" is not in the Bible. But to say so in isolation of the fact that the doctrine is at least discussed in the Bible would be captious to say the least toward a learning audience.
The words "nature" and "procession" are in the Bible, but not "procession of nature". Are we to assume that if the Trinity doctrine is that the Son and the Holy Spirit proceed from the Father not just in name, nor as creation that it's somehow embarrassing that "procession of nature" "is not in the Bible."? That's what your mode of argument suggests. VargasMilan (talk) Saturday, 16:30, 2 November 2019 (EDT)
'Trinity' is what you call a teaching aid. Some call it a doctrine. I prefer to call it an 'aspect' of God. Calling it a doctrine can create more problems than it's worth. But I'm sure I'll get arguments in Christian circles. OTOH, Abu Musab Zarqawi's group was called the Group for Monotheism and Jihad, and they refer to Christians and messianic Shiites as polytheists. So I think my POV is still a ways off for mainstream Christian churches to stop teaching non-biblical doctrines, which they won't until the beheaders are at the door.
Trust the Word. It's self explanatory. It doesn't need these short-cut mechanisms to give people an excuse to ignore reading the Word. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 01:09, 3 November 2019 (EDT)


  1. Eck's statement here is supremely appropriate in light of Luther's refusal to submit to the judgment of the Church, the emperor Charles V, and the Pope, and the teaching of Paul in Romans 13:1-5.
  2. Martin Luther. Life of Luther (Luther by Martin Luther).

Let Us Reason Ministries - a Pentecostal refutation of sola fide - "Did Jesus or the apostles heal everyone because of their faith?"

Introduction to Pentecostal article reproduced below

– The article below is an outstanding response to the credobaptist doctrine of "believer's baptism" as the only way of salvation. We ourselves in our own helpless weakness do not even know how to pray, like helpless infants in their weakness who have no faith (see Helpless babies and sinners). We are all like newborn babies who need the Holy Spirit to intercede for us in the regenerative baptism of water and the Spirit unto new life. "Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness, for we do not know how to pray as we ought, but the Spirit intercedes for us with sighs and groanings too deep for words."

The following Pentecostal article is here quoted in full from Let Us Reason Ministries (letusreason.org)
--Dataclarifier (talk) 19:34, 30 October 2019 (EDT)


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Did Jesus or the apostles heal everyone because of their faith?

We hear many teach that every time Jesus healed a person he said "According to YOUR faith, be it unto you," as if God always waits to enact His miraculous power by our faith. But this is not accurate, and one simply has to read all the Scriptures on healing and not focus on certain ones to understand this.

I believe in God's supernatural healing , Our God is one who does miracles. Today we hear that it only takes faith for the Lord to answer our prayer.What If one is not healed by faith, does it means they are a failure, because they did not exercise the faith that God needed in order to react. Jesus When Jesus was physically on earth he healed everyone that asked Him, But he also healed those who did not ask Him.

Luke 6:19: “And the whole multitude sought to touch Him, for power went out from Him and healed them all.”

Luke 9:11: “But when the multitudes knew it, they followed Him; and He received them and spoke to them about the kingdom of God, and healed those who had need of healing.”

Yet when we look carefully Jesus healed as many people that had no faith, than did. Sometimes he required faith, other times he did not. They were healed by His grace and mercy because of His love and most importantly to show the people who He is. Matt 14:14 :“And when Jesus went out He saw a great multitude; and He was moved with compassion for them, and healed their sick.”

So many brought friends and loved ones out to be healed. Matt 15:30:: “Then great multitudes came to Him, having with them the lame, blind, mute, maimed, and many others; and they laid them down at Jesus' feet, and He healed them.”

Healings were done in numerous ways. There were times Jesus responded to the faith of another person who asked on behalf of the one who needed healing.

Matt. 8:5-10 It was the faith of the centurion that healed his own servant. If we apply this today those who have enough faith for their own healing can apply it to everyone else to be healed.

Mk.5:35-43 The daughter of Jairus was healed from the fathers faith and asking.

The paralytic was carried by his friends to Jesus and “When Jesus saw their faith” (for their friend) He pronounced his sins forgiven first and then healed him (Mark 2:2-12).

Lk.17:11-19 Jesus healed all 10 lepers but only one obeyed showing that he was the only one to possess true saving faith.

Jesus healed people from the ultimate sickness of sin, death. In Jn.11 Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead, certainly it wasn’t Lazarus’ faith that raised himself, he was dead, neither did anyone else believe it could occur then. It was done so they could believe he was their Messiah (also Lk. 8:54). Other examples are in John 18:10, when Peter cut of the ear of Malchus, Jesus healed him without any faith from anyone.

Lk.8:26-39 The demoniac of Gadarene was healed without asking before he was capable of expressing his faith.

The Bible records Jesus doing just as many miracles without anyone exercising faith then with their faith. Jesus performed miracles with disbelief among the disciples.

Of the 35 miracles recorded in the Gospel accounts the faith of the recipient is exercised in only 10 of the accounts. Healing of the lame man (Jn.5:1-9) the cleansing of a leper (Mt.8:2-4) healing a mans withered hand (Mt.9:2-8) the healing of the man born blind (Jn.9:1-7) healing the blindness of Bartemaeus (Mt.20:29-34) The women who had a blood flow (Mt.9:20-22; Mk.5:24-34) Peter who walked on water to Jesus (Mt.14:24-33) the miraculous catching of the fish (Lk.5:1-11) and the second miraculous catch (Jn.21:1-11) The cleansing of the 10 lepers of which only one had faith (Lk.17:11-19).

Jesus did not indiscriminately heal ALL the people ALL of the time, but It was those God willed to be healed that were healed.

While he required faith for some he did not require it for all. In John 5:1-15: (v.3) multitudes were gathered at the pool of Bethsaida to be healed, Jesus did not call everyone forward, He picked only one person to be healed, a blind and lame man. Jesus initiated a conversation and asked the man at the pool of Bethsaida if he wanted to be made well. His answer was that there was no one to carry him to the pool, believing that if he entered the water he would be healed. The man with the infirmity was healed by God’s grace. He had no faith in Jesus; he didn’t even know it was Jesus who healed him until later (v.12-13).

In John 9 we find a blind man who did not ask to be healed, but was picked to be healed out of many others. This also was God’s grace. When Jesus saw the man blind from birth responding to His disciples’ inquiry, He healed him without his asking. It was not about their faith as much as it is about His will. Everyone Jesus WILLED to be healed was healed, 100%. This is the basis for a healing from a biblical frame of reference. He did not only heal those who had faith, He often picked those who had no faith.

Matt 13:13-15: "Therefore I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. "And in them the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled, which says: 'Hearing you will hear and shall not understand, and seeing you will see and not perceive; For the hearts of this people have grown dull. Their ears are hard of hearing, and their eyes they have closed, lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, lest they should understand with their hearts and turn, so that I should heal them.'

Because they did not understand Jesus did not heal them. What did they not understand? His teaching and who He was, they did not repent.

True supernatural healings do not always require faith it’s bestowed in mercy by the providence of God. The healings that are from God are always 100% successful, without any relapses, and are almost always immediate. False and psychological healings require physical contact, they can have relapses, and do not heal organic disorders and are not usually immediate. “Faith healers” claim you must keep your faith for your healing or the devil will come and steal it. Nowhere are God's healings spoken of in this way. Real miracles are under God's control with or without the use of man; false miracles always come by mans hands, and are done by their own dictates.

The Bible records Jesus doing many miracles in the absence of anyone exercising faith than with faith present. This is very significant considering the current teaching of faith being necessary for ones healing.

The Apostles healing ministry

After Jesus physically left earth and the apostles were leaders of the church, they were commissioned with the gospel and authority to do as Jesus did.

Acts 3:2-6: “And a certain man lame from his mother's womb was carried, whom they laid daily at the gate of the temple which is called Beautiful, to ask alms from those who entered the temple; who, seeing Peter and John about to go into the temple, asked for alms. And fixing his eyes on him, with John, Peter said, "Look at us." So he gave them his attention, expecting to receive something from them. Then Peter said, "Silver and gold I do not have, but what I do have I give you: In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, rise up and walk."

The man at the Gate beautiful was not seeking healing but money, he had no faith. John and Peter might of walked by this man a number of times to the temple but on this certain day they were moved to raise him up from his sick bed.

Miracles through the apostles became widespread outside of Israel to the Gentiles.

In 1 Timothy 5:23 Paul had Timothy to take wine for medicinal purposes. Lack of Faith was not the problem. 2 Timothy 4:20 says: “Trophemus I left in Miletus sick.” Trophemus a companion of Paul was left as Paul went on ministering, he did not encourage him to have faith to be healed. In Philippians 2:26, 30 mentions Epaphroditus as a devoted servant of the Lord; he became sick and stayed that way for some time and almost died. We see their prayers were answered by God’s will and in his timing. All Christians should pray for God to heal when it is needed.

In 2 Corinthians 12:9-10 Paul had a thorn in the flesh In Vv.9-10 Paul laments “Concerning this thing I pleaded with the Lord three times that it might depart from me. And He said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for My strength is made perfect in weakness.” God denied Paul to be healed for a reason. So to say everyone must be healed because of what Jesus did on the cross is wrong, the gospel is primarily about forgiveness of sin.

There is now a teaching inside the church that our cup of communion heals. Jesus said “This is My blood...which is shed for many for the remission of sins” (Matthew 26:28). Notice He said for sin. This is an ordinance that physically is to remind us of the actual crucifixion event. We are told it is “the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin” (1 John 1:7). The Bible states that without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sin, not healing for sickness. Revelation 1:5: “To Him who loved us and washed us from our sins in His own blood.” It is always our sin we are promised to be healed from. Now the question arises: “since sickness is from sin,” if our sin is forgiven we should not be sick? The Bible does not teach we have or can obtain sinless perfection in this life, so why should we think we would be free of sicknesses? Even death is from sin -- if we believe communion heals absolutely then those who take it would never physically die. We die because we are not cured physically from our sickness of sin until the day of resurrection.

We are currently forgiven and cleansed by the blood in a legal sense but not in a completed physical sense. This is reserved for the day of our resurrection when corruptible will become incorruptible. It is only then sin will be dealt the deathblow and we will live forever in an immortal physical body. We are presently clothed in Christ’s righteousness because we have faith in him who fulfilled the law, and is our substitute. One day we will personally be made righteous and what He accomplished will be fully applied to our body, not just our spirit. Rom.8:15 we live in a fallen world until the time of restoration. When one teaches all must be healed now they must ignore the context of the greater portion of Scripture. The faith teachers are not dividing the word correctly. They teach by faith we can today obtain everything scripture says. They apply blessings what will only take place millennial to us now.

Divine health so that you are never to be sick is not the teaching of Scripture; it is divine healing that is taught, it is in God’s hand when and how one would be healed. Real faith trusts him, is patient and perserveres.

Copyright (c) 2012 No portion of this site is to be copied or used unless kept in its original format in the way it appears. Articles can be reproduced in portions for ones personal use, any other use is to have the permission of the author first. Thank You.

What can I say? Someone, I don't know who, has salvation confused with physical healing. Oh boy, talk about the road of deception.... RobSDe Plorabus Unum 21:29, 30 October 2019 (EDT)
You didn't read it. It says
We are told it is “the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin” (1 John 1:7). The Bible states that without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sin, not healing for sickness. Revelation 1:5: “To Him who loved us and washed us from our sins in His own blood.” It is always our sin we are promised to be healed from.
--Dataclarifier (talk) 00:35, 31 October 2019 (EDT)
So? I don't quite follow how you connect the dots between this being either some affirmation or refutation of something or other. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 01:14, 31 October 2019 (EDT)
.....Still waiting to hear how you are going to connect the dots between Jesus' healing miracles and infant baptism.... RobSDe Plorabus Unum 15:30, 31 October 2019 (EDT)
"Attention all hands: Now hear this!"
"All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me." Matthew 28:18
"And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son as the Savior of the world." 1 John 4:16.
"As the Father has sent me, even so I send you." John 20:21. "If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven." John 20:23.
"I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven." Mt 16:18-19
"if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector Truly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven." Matthew 18:17b-18
"Be subject to every human institution" 1 Peter 2:13.
"Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God. Therefore he who resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment." Romans 13:1-3.
"So then brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter." 2 Thessalonians 2:15.
"Obey your leaders and submit to them; for they are keeping watch over your souls, as men who will have to give account. Let them do this joyfully, and not sadly, for that would be of no advantage to you." Hebrews 13:17.
"I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and turning to a different gospel—not that there is another gospel, but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to that which we preached to you, let him be accursed. As we have said before, so now I say again, If any one is preaching to you a gospel contrary to that which you received, let him be accursed." Galatians 1:6-9.
"Children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have come; therefore we know that it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out, that it might be plain that they all are not of us." 1 John 2:18-19
"And I will pray the Father, and he will give you another Counselor, to be with you for ever, even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him; you know him, for he dwells with you, and will be in you." John 14:16-17
"I have yet many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come. He will glorify me, for he will take what is mine and declare it to you." John 16:12-14].
I was taught as a Baptist to be faithful to the Bible as the Word of God. As a faithful Baptist heeding all the scriptures above and based on the Bible I obeyed and accepted that the Catholic Church had to be the one true Church. It was the only Church not founded by people who disobeyed those over them, and left and went out from them, and taught a doctrine different from the gospel they had been taught by the Church that they left.
It is the authoritative binding doctrine of the established Christian Church that has always connected the dots between Jesus' healing miracles and infant baptism and teaches to this day that "Baptism … now saves you" 1 Peter 3:21.
I accept the doctrine and interpretation of the established binding authority of the apostolic tradition of the Christian Church in connecting them.
Read the new Section below. "The Biblical Basis for Infant Baptism - Connecting the Dots between salvation and infant baptism - Protestant and Catholic"
--Dataclarifier (talk) 07:57, 1 November 2019 (EDT)
I think you nailed it right there, which you've said twice now. Are you accepting Christ's teaching or Church teaching? Are you looking to Christ for salvation or membership in a body? Sorry to dig in so personal, but churches, church membership, and church teaching do not save. Only Christ saves. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 12:38, 1 November 2019 (EDT)
Both. Christ's teaching is Church Teaching, and Church Teaching is Christ's Teaching.
--Dataclarifier (talk) 01:27, 3 November 2019 (EST)
It takes faith to make a statement like that - faith in the church, not faith in God.RobSDe Plorabus Unum 10:11, 3 November 2019 (EST)
Where does the Bible say that the Church does not save? --Dataclarifier (talk) 02:50, 3 November 2019 (EST)
Numerous places. Now most people would begin with Acts 4:12, or reiterate over and over again, Only Jesus Only Jesus. but I'm going to ask, were any of the 7 Churches in Asia in the Book of Revelation made whole and complete, as the scripture promised? Secondly, Look at yourself - by your very question you are asking if salvation can be found in man, and not in Christ. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 10:07, 3 November 2019 (EST)

Gal 1:6-9

  • I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and turning to a different gospel—not that there is another gospel, but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to that which we preached to you, let him be accursed. As we have said before, so now I say again, If any one is preaching to you a gospel contrary to that which you received, let him be accursed.
So, you appear to be deserting the gospel of grace. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 11:56, 1 November 2019 (EDT)
By grace are ye saved, through faith, not of works.
If we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to that which we preached to you, let him be accursed.

It ain't rocket science, and spamming the page to hide your embarrassment don't help. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 12:01, 1 November 2019 (EDT)

Like Paul, I am not ashamed of the Gospel of Christ.
I was taught as a Baptist to be faithful to the Bible as the Word of God. As a faithful Baptist heeding all the scriptures I have cited above, and based on the Bible alone sola scriptura, I obeyed and accepted that the Catholic Church had to be the one true Church. "Catholic" means universal, for all people of all places in every time to the day of judgment. It was the only Church not founded by people who had disobeyed those over them, and left and went out from them, and taught a doctrine different from the gospel they had been taught by the Church that they left, and denied that the Holy Spirit had remained for ever with the leadership of that Church, saying that Christ who remained to the end of the world had not remained, saying that He had departed and was no longer with that Church. The Catholic Church was founded by Jesus Christ Himself as His Bride, remaining with her to the end of the world as the vessel and channel of the grace of God given to the whole world as the body of Christ Himself, sent as He was sent, as the Savior of the world, baptizing. The Church is the "Temple of the Spirit", "built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, in whom the whole structure is joined together and grows into a holy temple in the Lord, in whom you also are built into it for a dwelling-place of God in the Spirit" (1 Peter 2:4-5; 1 Corinthians 3:16-17; Ephesians 2:19-22). "He cannot deny himself" (2 Timothy 2:11-13). To depart from the Church is deserting the gospel of grace. The grace of salvation comes from Christ alone through the Catholic Church he founded and sent out into the whole world as "the pillar and ground of truth" (1 Timothy 3:15), "that through the Church the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known to the principalities and powers in the heavenly places" (Ephesians 3:10). --Dataclarifier (talk) 12:44, 1 November 2019 (EDT)
If you have to work to earn grace, it ain't grace. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 13:05, 1 November 2019 (EDT)
Church membership is not salvation. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 13:09, 1 November 2019 (EDT)
Grace is bestowed by Christ through his body the Church and those baptized into him are saved. The Catholic Church saves as the one sent by God. The Church saves because Jesus is God in her as her head and the Holy Spirit dwells in her as the temple of God and it is he who sanctifies her and is the source of salvation, because God is in her at work in her members as members of the body of Christ himself, both to will and to work for his good pleasure (Philippians 2:12-13). --Dataclarifier (talk) 13:12, 1 November 2019 (EDT)
Look, spamming the page with pious sounding rhetoric saves no one. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 13:19, 1 November 2019 (EDT)
The church saves? I don't think even Catholic doctrine teaches that. You're bordering on speaking anathema. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 13:21, 1 November 2019 (EDT)
Catholic doctrine "teaches that" in the Catechism of the Catholic Church, 836-837.
836 "All men are called to this catholic unity of the People of God. . . . And to it, in different ways, belong or are ordered: the Catholic faithful, others who believe in Christ, and finally all mankind, called by God's grace to salvation."
837 "Fully incorporated into the society of the Church are those who, possessing the Spirit of Christ, accept all the means of salvation given to the Church together with her entire organization, and who - by the bonds constituted by the profession of faith, the sacraments, ecclesiastical government, and communion - are joined in the visible structure of the Church of Christ, who rules her through the Supreme Pontiff and the bishops. Even though incorporated into the Church, one who does not however persevere in charity is not saved. He remains indeed in the bosom of the Church, but 'in body' not 'in heart.'"
You clearly don't know what you're talking about. --Dataclarifier (talk) 01:37, 3 November 2019 (EST)
I clearly have the power of discernment - of separating the Word of God from the doctrines of men. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 14:36, 3 November 2019 (EST)
Amputating a few words from Philippians doesn't help you.
Let's look at the context from which you abuse Phillipians:
  • 5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus
We already discussed what it means to have the mind of Christ - that part you left out. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 15:39, 1 November 2019 (EDT)

The Biblical Basis for Infant Baptism - Connecting the Dots between salvation and infant baptism - Protestant and Catholic

The teaching of Scripture

"When we look carefully at the teaching of Scripture, we see that the sign of the covenant was applied to infants prior to Christ, and presumably continued to be applied to them when Jesus changed it to baptism." —James W. Scott, The Orthodox Presbyterian Church

Protestant

Article by James W. Scott Orthodox Presbyterian Church (OPC) The Biblical Basis for Infant Baptism

Many evangelical, Bible-believing Christians believe that baptism should be reserved for those who make a profession of faith. They point to the clear teaching in the Bible that converts should be baptized (see, for example, Matt. 28:19; Acts 2:37–38; 8:12; 18:8). The baptism warranted in the Bible by precept and example, they say, is believer’s baptism.

But wait a minute! The ordinary practice in baptistic churches has no more direct biblical support than the practice in churches that baptize infants. In both groups of churches, those who are converted from outside the church are baptized as new believers. That kind of “believers’ baptism” is not at issue. What is at issue is what to do with those who are born and raised within the church. Should they be baptized as infants or should their baptism be withheld until they make their own profession of faith?

Neither practice has explicit biblical support. There is no example of anyone born to Christian parents being baptized in the New Testament at any age, and no precept addresses their specific situation. The time and circumstances that are appropriate for baptizing such children must be inferred from general biblical teaching concerning baptism.

Let us once and for all disabuse ourselves of the notion that what goes on in baptistic churches has direct biblical warrant. It is only inferred from Scripture, as is our practice. (The question of immersion—the “mode” of baptism—is treated in an earlier article and will not be discussed here, though it is equally important in baptistic thinking.)

The Baptistic View of Baptism

Those who advocate believer’s baptism insist that infant baptism is not baptism at all (even if the infant is immersed). This is because they have a different understanding of baptism. In their view, baptism is principally a testimony given by the person baptized, first in word and then symbolically in water. Since an infant cannot give a testimony, a genuine infant baptism is an impossibility. However, the Bible nowhere portrays baptism as the testimony of the person baptized. Passages that link faith to baptism (such as Acts 8:12; 18:8) simply show that faith, publicly professed, is a necessary condition for baptism. Indeed, it is appropriate to include a statement of faith in the baptismal ceremony. However, a baptism itself (the application of water, with accompanying words) is a statement by God (through the church) to and about the person being baptized, not a statement by that person. The person baptized is the recipient of baptism from a minister of Jesus Christ, acting in his name (Matt. 28:18–20; cf. Acts 2:37–42; 8:16; 35–38).

Once we recognize that faith is a condition for baptism, and that baptism itself is not a demonstration of faith by the person baptized, the question can be asked, Whose faith is required? As we look now at the relevant biblical teaching, we will see that the faith of parents fully suffices for the baptism of their children.

Baptism and Discipleship

When Jesus instituted Christian baptism, he instructed his disciples to “make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them ... [and] teaching them to observe all that I commanded you” (Matt. 28:19–20). Baptism, then, begins the discipling process, which continues throughout one’s life. Everyone recognizes that the children of believers should be taught to observe the commandments of Jesus (see Eph. 6:1–3, 4). But this passage indicates that they should be baptized first.

On the Day of Pentecost, those who were converted by the preaching of Peter “were baptized; and there were added [to the church] that day about three thousand souls” (Acts 2:41). They then received instruction “in the apostles’ teaching” and participated fully in the life of the church (vs. 42). Again we see that baptism marks one’s entrance into the church, into the fellowship of the saints. But what about the children of these converts? Were they baptized and included in the church fellowship? Baptists want to leave children unbaptized but include them in the life of the church, but that is not the biblical pattern.

Children of Abraham

In order to understand the proper place of children in the church, it is necessary to understand that the church consists of those who have received the promise of spiritual blessing that was originally given to Abraham. The third chapter of Galatians spells this out carefully, concluding, “If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s offspring, heirs according to promise” (Gal. 3:29). This means that the covenant that God made with Abraham remains in effect today (in its “new covenant” form, of course). Otherwise, we could not be Abraham’s offspring, receiving what was promised to him and his descendants. The Abrahamic covenant (Gen. 12:1–3; 15:1–7; 17:1–14) was confirmed to his son Isaac (Gen. 26:1–5, 23–24) and his grandson Jacob (Gen. 28:10–15; cf. 48:15–16; 50:24). It continued with the nation of Israel (Ex. 2:24; 6:2–8), for whom the Law of Moses was added (as the Mosaic or “old” covenant) until the time of Christ (Gal. 3:17–19), in whom the promises given to Abraham were fulfilled (vss. 16, 22–28).

After Abraham exercised faith in God’s covenant promises (Gen. 15:6), the Lord added the rite of circumcision to the covenant arrangement (Gen. 17:9–14). He received “the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he [already] had while uncircumcised” (Rom. 4:11). Because Abraham was righteous (his sins were forgiven) as the result of his faith, he was circumcised as a sign given by God that sealed that righteousness. Physical, outward circumcision signified spiritual, inward cleansing of the heart (Ezek. 44:7; Rom. 2:28–29), a spiritual reality for Abraham and all his true, believing descendants.

Not only Abraham, but all males in his household, were to be circumcised. Henceforth, all males were to be circumcised as eight-day-old infants, throughout the generations of the covenant community (Gen. 17:12–13). Circumcision marked one’s entrance into the covenant community; without it, one was to be “cut off from his people” (vs. 14).

This was God’s way of signifying that the promises given to faithful Abraham extended also to his children (and anyone else who came under and accepted his authority). Some of those, like his son Ishmael, left the covenant community and renounced the faith of Abraham. Others in Israel’s sorry history remained in the covenant community, but did not share the faith of Abraham. A remnant, however, by the grace of God, remained faithful.

The Foundation of the Abrahamic Covenant is faith - believing that whatsoever He promised [the resurrection of Isaac] He was able to deliver. At the end of this page you argue faith (i.e. believing that whatsoever God promises he is able to deliver) isn't necessary, only love. You're preaching bunkum. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 14:32, 3 November 2019 (EST)

A New Covenant Sign

Into the circumcised community was born Jesus, in whom the promise of spiritual blessing for all peoples of the world would be fulfilled (Gal. 3:8–9, 14). The line of physical descent from Abraham reached its climax in the person of Jesus (vss. 16, 19). After him, only spiritual descent mattered (vss. 7–9, 25–26). Converts would no longer be incorporated into the nation of Israel.

Consequently, a covenant sign that focused on physical descent through the male line was no longer appropriate. A new sign of the covenant was needed—one that all people, whether Jew or Gentile, male or female, could receive. As we have seen, water baptism was instituted by Jesus as the new sign of entrance into the community of faith. Essentially, then, baptism replaced circumcision.

The change from circumcision to baptism is reflected in Acts 8:12, where we read that Samaritans were being baptized, “men and women alike.” There is no reason to point out that people of both genders were now receiving the sign of the covenant, except to contrast it with the old sign of the covenant. Implied in this contrast is the fact that baptism had replaced circumcision.

Spiritual Circumcision

There were Judaizers in the church who wanted Gentile converts to be circumcised and to follow the whole Mosaic law. But in various epistles, Paul insisted that Christians not only had nothing to gain from circumcision and Judaism, but actually had everything to lose! Writing to the Colossians, he declared that Christians were complete in Christ and should not look to Judaism or any other religion to supplement their faith (Col. 2:8–23). His statements specifically about circumcision and baptism (vss. 11–12) deserve close attention.

Christians have no need for physical circumcision, Paul indicates, because “in Him”—that is, as part of their spiritual union with Christ—they have already been “circumcised with a circumcision made without hands” (vs. 11). That is, they have already received that inward circumcision, that spiritual cleansing of the heart, that is effected by the Holy Spirit. In Romans 2:28–29, Paul refers to this as inward circumcision, “which is of the heart, by the Spirit.”

This spiritual circumcision, Paul continues, consists of “the removal of the body of the flesh” (Col. 2:11). But what is “the body of the flesh”? An important textual variant here reads “the body of the sins of the flesh” (NKJV). In either case, another contrast with circumcision is in view. Physical circumcision removes a small piece of flesh. But spiritual circumcision, figuratively speaking, removes or puts off the whole body of sinful flesh, that is, “our old self,” “our body of sin” that has been “done away with” (Rom. 6:6). When the Spirit cleanses the heart, the whole weight of sin is removed, and the sinful flesh is renounced.

This spiritual cleansing, Paul continues, is effected by “the circumcision of Christ” (Col. 2:11). Since this verse has all along been speaking of the spiritual experience of the sinner, “the circumcision of Christ” must likewise be something in Christian experience, not something in the life of Jesus (i.e., his death, as baptistic writers suppose). It is the spiritual circumcising that belongs to Christ—“the circumcision done by Christ” (NIV) or simply “Christian circumcision.” The Judaizers were insisting on the physical circumcision set forth in the Law of Moses; Paul was upholding the spiritual circumcision of Christ.

Paul’s opponents might well have agreed that an inward cleansing was in order. However, they would have insisted that this be signified by physical circumcision. But Paul indicates that that is not necessary, for the Christian has already been “buried with Him” [that is, Christ] in baptism (Col. 2:12; cf. Rom. 6:4–5). Physical circumcision has nothing to add. A new sign, baptism, has been received.

Finally, Christians have been “raised up with Him through faith in the working of God” (Col. 2:12). “We have been buried with Him through baptism into death, in order that as Christ was raised from the dead ... we too might walk in newness of life” (Rom. 6:4). What do the Judaizers have to offer in comparison with that? We are already complete in Christ (Col. 2:10)!

It is part of the teaching of Colossians 2:11–12, then, that baptism has replaced circumcision for the covenant community. The Abrahamic covenant is fulfilled in the new covenant, and circumcision has been replaced by baptism as the sign and seal of the righteousness of faith.

Children in the Church

Under the Abrahamic covenant, those who were born within the covenant community received the sign of the covenant as infants. Because the Abrahamic covenant remains in effect, but with the sign of it having been changed, it follows that those who are born within the covenant community should be baptized as infants, just as they were formerly circumcised as infants. They should be baptized at the start of the discipling process, as outlined by Jesus.

If there are any doubts as to the “fitness” of infants to be raised as disciples of Jesus, he himself dispelled them. When children were brought to Jesus by their parents for his blessing, the disciples tried to brush them aside (Mark 10:13–16). But Jesus said, “Permit the children to come to Me ... for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these.” These children included babies (Luke 18:15); Jesus “took them in His arms and began blessing them” (Mark 10:16).

Some would say that Jesus welcomed them just to teach adults a lesson (see Luke 18:17). But if infants do not qualify for the kingdom of God, then how can adults qualify by being like them? There is no lesson for adults to learn unless Jesus welcomes the infants of believers into his kingdom. That kingdom, today, is essentially the church (Matt. 16:18–19). Since people are visibly received into the church by baptism, it follows that infants are to be received into the kingdom of God by baptism.

Faith and Baptism

As we have seen, circumcision under the Abrahamic covenant was applied to infants on the basis of parental faith (Gen. 17; Rom. 4:11). Since we today are part of that covenant through faith in Christ, the new sign of the covenant, water baptism, should likewise be applied to infants on the basis of parental faith.

That theological conclusion is confirmed by the accounts in the book of Acts which reveal that whole households were commonly baptized on the basis of the faith of the head of the household. These accounts are examined in some detail in the article “Saving Faith and Infant Baptism,” in the April 1992 issue of New Horizons, but it will be helpful to summarize the argument here.

The most detailed and informative account is that of the Philippian jailer (Acts 16:30–34). “Believe in the Lord Jesus,” he was told, “and you shall be saved, you and your household” (vs. 31; cf. 11:14). Accordingly, the gospel was preached “to him together with all who were in his house” (vs. 32). In response, he “believed in God with his whole household” (vs. 34), whereupon “he was baptized, he and all his household” (vs. 33).

The key word in this passage is “with.” It signifies accompaniment. When Luke says that the jailer heard the gospel and believed with his household, the implication is that everyone in his household went along with him. Any older household members, such as his wife, evidently became believers, too. But any young children went along with their father, following his lead with whatever limited understanding that they had.

This crucial distinction between “with” and “and” (regrettably obscured by some translations) is clear in similar passages in Acts: 1:14; 3:4; 4:27; 5:1; 10:2; 14:13; 15:22; 21:5. In each case, “with” introduces those who follow the lead of others and join with them in their activity, however actively or passively. In Acts 21:5, for example, Paul is escorted to the harbor by all the men in the church at Tyre, “with wives and children,” which no doubt included a number of small infants. In the household baptism passages, the head of the house always believes “with” his household, but he and they are baptized. Just as the heads of households escorted Paul to the harbor “with” infants who were only passive participants, so also heads of households were baptized “with” whatever infants were in their families.

Some would argue that there may not have been any infants in these households mentioned in Acts. However, household baptism was evidently a common practice in the apostolic church (see also 1 Cor. 1:16). It must have happened thousands of times, often including infants.

You and Your Children

Paul’s promise to the Philippian jailer, that salvation would come to his whole house if he believed in Jesus, was no different from what Peter told three thousand adult converts at Pentecost. The promise of the Holy Spirit, Peter said, was “for you and your children, and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God shall call to Himself” (Acts 2:39). These converts had just been called by the Lord into fellowship with himself, and many other adults (then “far off”) would be called in the future, but the children of these converts formed a third category: they were called into fellowship with Christ together with their parents (or even merely one parent: see 1 Cor. 7:14). Such is the grace of God to the children of believers! We can only infer that the children of the first Christian converts were baptized, brought up in the Christian faith (see Eph. 6:1–4; Col. 3:20–21), and, whenever it pleased the Lord, given the Holy Spirit promised to them.

Conclusion

When we look carefully at the teaching of Scripture, we see that the sign of the covenant was applied to infants prior to Christ, and presumably continued to be applied to them when Jesus changed it to baptism. And when we look closely at the household baptisms described in Acts, there can be little doubt but that infants were commonly baptized in the apostolic church. They were baptized then, and they should be baptized now, on the basis of God’s promise to bless the children of believers. The faith of a parent qualifies a child to be baptized and raised as a disciple of Jesus. He welcomed them into his kingdom, and so should we.

—James W. Scott

Catholic

Article by Dave Armstrong A Quick Ten-Step Refutation of Sola Scriptura

1. Sola Scriptura Is Not Taught in the Bible

Catholics agree with Protestants that Scripture is a “standard of truth”—even the preeminent one—but not in a sense that rules out the binding authority of authentic apostolic Tradition and the Church. The Bible doesn’t teach that. Catholics agree that Scripture is materially sufficient. In other words, on this view, every true doctrine can be found in the Bible, if only implicitly and indirectly by deduction. But no biblical passage teaches that Scripture is the formal authority or rule of faith in isolation from the Church and Tradition. Sola scriptura can’t even be deduced from implicit passages.

Bingo. Right here. Jesus said Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
Jesus also said, Thus you nullify the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And you do many things like that."
Commentary: There are two Gospels (one "which is no Gospel at all" as Paul says), they are a Gospel of Grace, and Gospel of Law (alternatively, "A Gospel of Works" or a "Gospel of Wrath"). Rejecting the authority of scripture (i.e., "The Word of God") turns the Gospel into a Gospel of Works (such as in Buddhism, Islam, Mormonism, Roman Catholicism and host of other teachings).
What does the scripture teach us? That Israel received the Gospel in the wilderness, and rejected it for a Gospel of Works (i.e., the Mosaic Law). The Law cannot save one from the wrath of God.
What further does the scripture teach us? That Israel was called out of Egypt, that God called out a people unto himself, that these people were eyewitnesses to God's mighty power when they saw God destroy their enemies who were pursuing them, when God parted the sea, they witnessed the plagues of Egypt and how they were immune. In the end, they still rebelled and bowed to worship the Golden Calf.
Such are those who reject the Gospel of Grace for the traditions of men and a gospel of law or works, which is no gospel at all. You cannot earn your way into God's family. I know that in me dwelleth no good thing. They that are in the flesh cannot please God. Ye must be spiritually born. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 12:18, 1 November 2019 (EDT)

2. The “Word of God” Refers to Oral Teaching Also

“Word” in Holy Scripture often refers to a proclaimed, oral teaching of prophets or apostles. What the prophets spoke was the word of God regardless of whether or not their utterances were recorded later as written Scripture. So for example, we read in Jeremiah:

“For twenty-three years . . . the word of the Lord has come to me and I have spoken to you again and again . . . ‘But you did not listen to me,’ declares the Lord. . . . Therefore the Lord Almighty says this: ‘Because you have not listened to my words. . . .’” (Jer. 25:3, 7-8 [NIV]).

This was the word of God even though some of it was not recorded in writing. It had equal authority as writing or proclamation-never-reduced-to-writing. This was true also of apostolic preaching. When the phrases “word of God” or “word of the Lord” appear in Acts and the epistles, they almost always refer to oral preaching, not to Scripture. For example:

“When you received the word of God which you heard from us, you accepted it not as the word of men but as what it really is, the word of God” (1 Thess. 2:13).

If we compare this passage with another, written to the same church, Paul appears to regard oral teaching and the word of God as synonymous:

“Keep away from any brother who is living in idleness and not in accord with the tradition that you received from us” (2 Thess. 3:6).

3. Tradition Is Not a Dirty Word

Protestants often quote the verses in the Bible where corrupt traditions of men are condemned (e.g., Matt. 15:2–6; Mark 7:8–13; Col. 2:8). Of course, Catholics agree with this. But it’s not the whole truth. True apostolic Tradition also is endorsed positively. This Tradition is in total harmony with and consistent with Scripture.

4. Jesus and Paul Accepted Non-Biblical Oral and Written Traditions

Protestants defending sola scriptura will claim that Jesus and Paul accepted the authority of the Old Testament. This is true, but they also appealed to other authority outside of written revelation. For example:

a. The reference to “He shall be called a Nazarene” cannot be found in the Old Testament, yet it was “spoken by the prophets” (Matt. 2:23). Therefore, this prophecy, which is considered to be “God’s word,” was passed down orally rather than through Scripture.
b. In Matthew 23:2–3, Jesus teaches that the scribes and Pharisees have a legitimate, binding authority based “on Moses’ seat,” but this phrase or idea cannot be found anywhere in the Old Testament. It is found in the (originally oral) Mishnah, which teaches a sort of “teaching succession” from Moses on down.
c. In 1 Corinthians 10:4, Paul refers to a rock that “followed” the Jews through the Sinai wilderness. The Old Testament says nothing about such miraculous movement. But rabbinic tradition does.
d. “As Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses” (2 Tim. 3:8). These two men cannot be found in the related Old Testament passage (Ex. 7:8ff.) or anywhere else in the Old Testament.

5. The Apostles Exercised Authority at the Council of Jerusalem

In the Council of Jerusalem (Acts 15:6–30), we see Peter and James speaking with authority. This Council makes an authoritative pronouncement (citing the Holy Spirit) that was binding on all Christians:

“For it has seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things: that you abstain from what has been sacrificed to idols and from blood and from what is strangled and from unchastity” (Acts 15:28–29).

In the next chapter, we read that Paul, Timothy, and Silas were traveling around “through the cities,” and Scripture says that

“they delivered to them for observance the decisions which had been reached by the apostles and elders who were at Jerusalem” (Acts 16:4).

6. Pharisees, Sadducees, and Oral, Extrabiblical Tradition

Christianity was derived in many ways from the Pharisaical tradition of Judaism. The Sadducees, on the other hand, rejected the future resurrection of the soul, the afterlife, rewards and retribution, demons and angels, and predestinarianism. The Sadducees also rejected all authoritative oral teaching and essentially believed in sola scriptura. They were the theological liberals of that time. Christian Pharisees are referred to in Acts 15:5 and Philippians 3:5, but the Bible never mentions Christian Sadducees. The Pharisees, despite their corruptions and excesses, were the mainstream Jewish tradition, and both Jesus and Paul acknowledge this. So neither the orthodox Old Testament Jews nor the early Church was guided by the principle of sola scriptura.

7. Old Testament Jews Did Not Believe in Sola Scriptura

To give two examples from the Old Testament itself:

a. Ezra, a priest and scribe, studied the Jewish law and taught it to Israel, and his authority was binding under pain of imprisonment, banishment, loss of goods, and even death (cf. Ezra 7:26).
b. In Nehemiah 8:3, Ezra reads the Law of Moses to the people in Jerusalem. In verse 7 we find thirteen Levites who assisted Ezra and helped the people to understand the law. Much earlier, we find Levites exercising the same function (cf. 2 Chr. 17:8–9).

So the people did indeed understand the law (cf. Neh. 8:8, 12), but not without much assistance—not merely upon hearing. Likewise, the Bible is not altogether clear in and of itself but requires the aid of teachers who are more familiar with biblical styles and Hebrew idiom, background, context, exegesis and cross-reference, hermeneutical principles, original languages, etc. The Old Testament, then, teaches about a binding Tradition and need for authoritative interpreters, as does the New Testament (cf. Mark 4:33–34; Acts 8:30–31; 2 Pet. 1:20; 3:16).

8. Ephesians 4 Refutes the Protestant “Proof Text”

“All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work” (2 Tim. 3:16–17).

This passage doesn’t teach formal sufficiency which excludes a binding, authoritative role for Tradition and Church.

Protestants extrapolate onto the text what isn’t there. If we look at the overall context of this passage, we can see that Paul makes reference to oral Tradition three times (cf. 2 Tim. 1:13–14; 2:2; 3:14). And to use an analogy, let’s examine a similar passage:

“And his gifts were that some should be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers, to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the cunning of men, by their craftiness in deceitful wiles. Rather, speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in every way into him who is the head, into Christ” (Eph. 4:11–15).

If 2 Timothy 3 proves the sole sufficiency of Scripture, then, by analogy, Ephesians 4 would likewise prove the sufficiency of pastors and teachers for the attainment of Christian perfection. In Ephesians 4, the Christian believer is equipped, built up, brought into unity and mature manhood, and even preserved from doctrinal confusion by means of the teaching function of the Church. This is a far stronger statement of the perfecting of the saints than 2 Timothy 3, yet it does not even mention Scripture.

So if all non-scriptural elements are excluded in 2 Timothy, then, by analogy, Scripture would logically have to be excluded in Ephesians. It is far more reasonable to recognize that the absence of one or more elements in one passage does not mean that they are nonexistent. The Church and Scripture are both equally necessary and important for teaching.

9. Paul Casually Assumes That His Passed-Down Tradition Is Infallible and Binding

If Paul wasn’t assuming that, he would have been commanding his followers to adhere to a mistaken doctrine. He writes:

“If any one refuses to obey what we say in this letter, note that man, and have nothing to do with him, that he may be ashamed” (2 Thess. 3:14).
“Take note of those who create dissensions and difficulties, in opposition to the doctrine which you have been taught; avoid them” (Rom. 16:17).

He didn’t write about “the pretty-much, mostly, largely true but not infallible doctrine which you have been taught.”

10. Sola Scriptura Is a Circular Position

When all is said and done, Protestants who accept sola scriptura as their rule of faith appeal to the Bible. If they are asked why one should believe in their particular denominational teaching rather than another, each will appeal to “the Bible’s clear teaching.” Often they act as if they have no tradition that guides their own interpretation.

This is similar to people on two sides of a constitutional debate both saying, “Well, we go by what the Constitution says, whereas you guys don’t.” The U.S. Constitution, like the Bible, is not sufficient in and of itself to resolve differing interpretations. Judges and courts are necessary, and their decrees are legally binding. Supreme Court rulings cannot be overturned except by a future ruling or constitutional amendment. In any event, there is always a final appeal that settles the matter.

But Protestantism lacks this because it appeals to a logically self-defeating principle and a book that must be interpreted by human beings. Obviously, given the divisions in Protestantism, simply “going to the Bible” hasn’t worked. In the end, a person has no assurance or certainty in the Protestant system. They can only “go to the Bible” themselves and perhaps come up with another doctrinal version of some disputed doctrine to add to the list. One either believes there is one truth in any given theological dispute (whatever it is) or adopts a relativist or indifferentist position, where contradictions are fine or the doctrine is so “minor” that differences “don’t matter.”

But the Bible doesn’t teach that whole categories of doctrines are “minor” and that Christians freely and joyfully can disagree in such a fashion. Denominationalism and divisions are vigorously condemned. The only conclusion we can reach from the Bible is what we call the “three-legged stool”: Bible, Church, and Tradition are all necessary to arrive at truth. If you knock out any leg of a three-legged stool, it collapses.

—Dave Armstrong

Reiteration - Bible texts: Regenerative Baptism


  • Whoever rejects Jesus and does not receive his sayings has a judge; the word that Jesus has spoken will be his judge on the last day. John 12:4712:48
  • He who is of God hears the words of God; the reason why you do not hear them is that you are not of God. John 8:47
    Except a man be born again of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. Be baptized and wash away your sins. Baptism saves us now, by water and the blood.
  • He who despises the word brings destruction on himself. When anyone turns away from hearing the word of God, even his prayer is an abomination. Proverbs 13:13 and 28:9
  • I warned those who sinned before and all the others, and I warn them now while absent, as I did when present on my second visit, that if I come again I will not spare them 2 Corinthians 13:2

--Dataclarifier (talk) 06:34, 1 November 2019 (EDT)

Churchiness and pious sounding rhetoric do not save. Only the spirit of God through Christ saves.
What is so difficult about affirming this simple truth? RobSDe Plorabus Unum 15:54, 1 November 2019 (EDT)
It's not difficult. (You didn't mention the blood of Christ.) Except a man be born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. Jn 3:5. He saves us, not because of deeds done by us in righteousness, but in virtue of his mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal by the Holy Spirit. Tt 3:5.
What is so difficult about affirming this simple truth? --Dataclarifier (talk) 14:31, 2 November 2019 (EDT)
You are right: Only the spirit of God through Christ saves us. The Bible says that only the spirit of God through Christ saves us by the washing of water with the word, by the washing of regeneration and renewal by the Holy Spirit. Ephesians 5:25-27; Titus 3:5
What is so difficult about affirming this simple truth of the Bible? --Dataclarifier (talk) 15:24, 2 November 2019 (EDT)
washing of water with the word. Here, water is used figuratively. The word cleanses when you are immersed in it. Below you deny the authority of the Word. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 22:27, 2 November 2019 (EDT)
What is your authority for saying the word water in this text is used figuratively? The biblical author doesn't say it is either figurative or that it is a figurative image of being immersed in the study of the scriptures of the Lord. --Dataclarifier (talk) 22:38, 2 November 2019 (EDT)
Ok then, try taking a bath with words. You can either shout at the dirt or rip pages out of a bible to scrub yourself.
To be carnally minded is death. To be spiritually minded is life and peace. This is obviously spiritual language (but the carnal mind cannot understand). RobSDe Plorabus Unum 23:54, 2 November 2019 (EDT)
Ye must have the mind of Christ. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 00:02, 3 November 2019 (EDT)
According to 1 Timothy 4:4-5 food received with thanksgiving is actually consecrated (made sacred, holy) by the word of God and prayer. It is the same with water consecrated for baptism by the words "I baptize you in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit." What is your proof from the text of Titus that the washing of regeneration is figurative? All you offered in answer was an absurdity with sarcasm and insult. You have not demonstrated or proved that "the washing" is figurative and that it cannot possibly involve water.
--Dataclarifier (talk) 01:00, 3 November 2019 (EST).
Dataclarifier says:
I will not let this one pass. You are either totally ignorant of New Testament Greek, or you are an outrageously blatant liar!
In any case, you have totally falsified the meaning of this text of the Bible. By clearly doing so, you have completely disqualified yourself as a Bible Christian, by your denying of the authority of the Word of the Lord: —the word λουτροῦ loutrou "washing". (Your interpretation is an illicit eisegetical error, not a genuine exegesis.)
Commentary on RobS interpretation. This is not a case of a simple mistake or misunderstanding; it has serious consequences for those who believe him, and believe others who teach the same error of false interpretation. Such a man cannot be trusted with the Word of God. His words are proven incompetent and worthless. He has testified against himself. The evidence is irrefutable. Any persistence in manifest error after it is demonstrated beyond any possible remaining doubt ipso facto exposes undeniable dishonesty, an unmistakable lack of integrity, a spirit resistant to plain truth even when the truth is obvious, irrefutable and clearly evident.
The Greek word here in Titus 3:5 — λουτροῦ loutrou "[the] washing" — means "a washing, a bath, a cleansing bath (of water, not the vessel), water for washing, washing". It doesn't mean anything else. The word is used twice in the New Testament (Ephesians 5:26; Titus 3:5), and has been used for more than a thousand years by ecclesiastical writers to the time of the Reformation, as a synonymous figure of speech for "baptism", "the bath of regeneration" ("washing", a bath, figurative, baptism)—the word "washing" itself in Titus 3:5, λουτροῦ loutrou (a cleansing bath of water, washing) is not figurative.
The Greek word for "regeneration" here in Titus 3:5 — παλιγγενεσία paliggenesia — means "rebirth", "renovation", "restoration", "regeneration". Commonly, however, παλιγγενεσία paliggenesia denotes the restoration of a thing to its pristine state, its renovation, as the renewal or restoration of life after death.
Greek dictionary λουτρόν loutron "[the] washing"
Greek dictionary παλιγγενεσία paliggenesia "regeneration"
Titus 3:5 — interlinear text
Titus 3:5 — multiple versions
Titus 3:5 — multiple commentaries representing the scholarship you reject. The word "figurative" is not used in any of the commentaries on this passage, Protestant, Catholic, Orthodox. The παλιγγενεσία paliggenesia "regeneration" is not figurative rebirth, but actual spiritual rebirth, affecting the being of the one baptized, a genuine conversion of the nature of the one who has been baptized.
—"Seeing, then, that God has saved us by His own act, independently of any work of ours, we ask, How has He effected this? The words we are here considering give the answer to the question. The Greek should be rendered, “by the laver of regeneration,” &c. Then, by means of the laver of regeneration, &c, has God put us into a state of salvation. In other words, He has effected this by means of “baptism” (for the laver here can only signify the baptismal font, and is called the laver of regeneration because it is the vessel consecrated to the use of that sacrament), whereby, in its completeness as a sacrament, the new life in Christ is conveyed."
--Dataclarifier (talk) 01:00, 3 November 2019 (EST)
Huh? Your loosing me. The text says washing with the word. It does not say washing and the word.
It is the same meaning James gives in his exhortation at:
if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like a man beholding himself in a mirror: for he beholdeth himself, and goeth away, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.
This is what is meant by cleansing with the word. The Word is a mirror into ourselves. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 06:56, 3 November 2019 (EST)
Palengenesia, regeneration or renewal, is found by rejection of traditions of men and embracing the Word of God. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 15:25, 3 November 2019 (EST)

Analysis

The argument seems to be:

  • The Bible, or Word of God, is not authoritative;
  • Salvation is dependent upon church membership;
  • While baptism qualifies a person for adoption into God's family, it is no guarantee; salvation still must be earned by good works, or at least the sacrificial death of Jesus is insufficient to cleanse one of certain sins.

.RobSDe Plorabus Unum 05:57, 2 November 2019 (EDT)

(To see an unbroken copy of the response that follows without addition of inserted opposing comments click here.)

Scriptural support for the analysis

All of the following scriptures from the Bible, or Word of God, are authoritative.
  • Unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. Jn 3:5
  • He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. Mk 16:16
  • I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. Mt 16:18-19
  • Obey your leaders and submit to them; for they are keeping watch over your souls, as men who will have to give account. He 13:17
  • Take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you guardians, to feed the church of the Lord which he obtained with his own blood. Ac 20:28
  • And his gifts were that some should be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers, for the equipment of the saints, for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ; so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the cunning of men, by their craftiness in deceitful wiles. Rather, speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in every way into him who is the head, into Christ, from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by every joint with which it is supplied, makes bodily growth and upbuilds itself in love. Ep 4:11-16 (The scriptures are not mentioned, neither here nor in 1 Corinthians 12:27-38.)
  • For just as the body is one and has many members, and all the members of the body, though many, are one body, so it is with Christ. For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—Jews or Greeks, slaves or free—and all were made to drink of one Spirit. 1 Co 12:12-13
  • Now you are the body of Christ and individually members of it. And God has appointed in the Church first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then workers of miracles, then healers, helpers, administrators, speakers in various kinds of tongues. 1 Co 12:27-38 (The scriptures are not mentioned, neither here nor in Ephesians 4:11-16.)
  • Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a workman who has no need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. 2 Tm 2:15
  • And account the forbearance of our Lord as salvation. So also our beloved brother Paul wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, speaking of this as he does in all his letters. There are some things in them hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other scriptures. You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, beware lest you be carried away with the error of lawless men and lose your own stability. 2 Pt 3:15-17
  • You then, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus, and what you have heard from me before many witnesses entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also. 2 Tm 2:1-2 (often cited as support for apostolic succession)
  • I am the true vine, and my Father is the vinedresser: Every branch of mine that bears no fruit, he takes away, and every branch that does bear fruit he prunes, that it may bear more fruit. You are already clean by the word which I have spoken to you. Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me. I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in me, and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing. If a man does not abide in me he is cast forth as a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire and burned. Jn 15:1-6
  • For he will render to every man according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are factious and do not obey the truth, but obey wickedness, there will be wrath and fury. There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, but glory and honor and peace for every one who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek. For God shows no partiality. Rm 2:6-11
  • You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. James 2:24
  • For it is impossible to restore again to repentance those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they then commit apostasy, since they crucify the Son of God on their own account and hold him up to contempt. He 6:4-6
  • He who is not with me is against me, and he who does not gather with me scatters. Therefore I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven. Mt 12:30-31
  • If any one sees his brother committing what is not a mortal sin, he will ask, and God will give him life for those whose sin is not mortal. There is sin which is mortal; I do not say that one is to pray for that. All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin which is not mortal. 1 Jn 5:16-17
  • My brethren, if any one among you wanders from the truth and some one brings him back, let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins. James 5:19-20
  • I have yet many things to say to you, but you cannot hear them now. When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all truth; for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things to come. He will glorify me, for he will take what is mine and declare it to you. Jn 16:12-14
  • And I will pray the Father, and he will give you another Counselor, to be with you for ever, even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him; you know him, for he dwells with you, and will be in you. Jn 14:16-17
  • Do you not know that you (plural) are God's temple and that God's Spirit dwells in you (plural)? If anyone destroys God's temple God will destroy him. For God's temple is holy, and that temple you (plural) are. 1 Co 3:16-17
  • So then you are no longer strangers and sojourners, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, in whom the whole structure is joined together and grows into a holy temple in the Lord; in whom you also are built into it for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit. Ep 2:19-22
  • if I am delayed, you may know how one ought to behave in the household of God, which is the Church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth. 1 Tm 3:15
  • Children it is the last hour, and as you have heard that Antichrist is coming, so now many Antichrists have come; therefore we know that it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out, that it might be plain that they all are not of us. 1 Jn 2:18-29
  • If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. But if he will not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every word may be confirmed by the evidence of two or three witnesses. If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the Church; and if he refuses to listen even to the Church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector. Truly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
  • Any one who goes beyond and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God; he who abides in the doctrine has both the Father and the Son. If any one comes to you and does not bring this doctrine, do not receive him into the house or give him any greeting; for he who greets him shares his wicked work. 2 Jn 9-11
  • As for a man who is factious, after admonishing him once or twice, have nothing more to do with him, knowing that such a person is perverted and sinful; he is self-condemned. Tt 3:10-11
  • Yet in like manner these men in their dreamings defile the flesh, reject authority, and revile the glorious ones. Jude 8
  • These are grumblers, malcontents, following their own passions, loud-mouthed boasters, flattering people to gain advantage. Jude 16 —The preceding unsigned comment was added by User:Dataclarifier (talk)
Your citation to Romans 2 here is out of place. Paul is speaking to the unsaved, to those under Law, not under grace. The first seven chapters of Romans is all spoken to those outside the family of God.
What does it mean to be in Christ? (Romans chapter 8 and elsewhere: there is therefore no condemnation to those who are in Christ. This stands in stark contrast to those under condemnation in Romans 2, he will render to every man according to his works. To be saved means to be saved from the wrath of the Law.
I should leave it at that, however this doctrine is supported by the parable of the householder who went to hire labourers in his field (Matt 20). They all got the same pay, whether they worked one hour or all day. The Kingdom of God is like unto the householder who shortchanged the guys who labored all day and paid the bum stragglers the same amount. So no, those who are saved by grace shall not be repaid according to their works.
"So no, those who are saved by grace shall not be repaid according to their works."
You have just contradicted the Word of God, and condemned yourself.
  • For he will render to every man according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are factious and do not obey the truth, but obey wickedness, there will be wrath and fury. There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, but glory and honor and peace for every one who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek. For God shows no partiality. Rm 2:6-11
  • You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. Jm 2:24 (context James 2:12-26.) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by User:Dataclarifier (talk)


It's a gospel of grace, not of works. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 22:51, 2 November 2019 (EDT)
I place my comments here because by context they belong here. You've strung together various verses; most are spoken to the people of God. Roman 2:6 is spoken to lost sinners - people apart from God. By removing my post from its proper context, you are preaching a doctrine of men, rendering the word of God to no effect. 07:19, 3 November 2019 (EST)
I place my original response here because by context it belongs here as my original response to your assertion, but you chose to omit it. You've rejected a fundamental statement of the word of God, rendering the word of God to no effect by your tradition. --Dataclarifier (talk) 16:40, 3 November 2019 (EST)
Let's be clear about who teaches what.
The Catholic Church has utterly condemned the Pelagian "gospel of salvation by works". The Church absolutely condemns the idea that salvation can be earned. It can't. Works make faith complete, just as St. James teaches. "Faith without works is dead. You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.
Anyone who says the Catholic Church teaches that salvation must be earned knows nothing, and is seriously guilty of misrepresenting Catholic doctrine with a gross falsehood against the truth.
Anyone who says that the Catholic Church teaches that Jesus does not save by his blood in baptism through the Catholic Church is guilty of seriously misrepresenting Catholic doctrine with a gross falsehood against the truth.
The Catholic Church teaches instead that salvation is
solely by the grace and justification of Jesus Christ alone by the power of the Holy Spirit through the sacrament of baptism ex opere operato.
Proof of this is set forth clearly in the The Catechism of the Catholic Church, Part Three: Life in Christ, Section One: Man's Vocation: Life in the Spirit, Chapter Three: God's Salvation: Law and Grace, Article 2: Grace and Justification, I-IV, numbers 1987-2029 - citing abundant Bible support, Rom 3:22; cf. 6:3-4; Rom 6:8-11; Cf. 1 Cor 12; Jn 15:1-4; Mt 4:17; Rom 3:21-26; Cf. Rom 7:22; Eph 3:16; Rom 6:19, 22; Jn 1:12-18; 17:3; Rom 8:14-17; 2 Pet 1:3-4; 1 Cor 2:7-9; Jn 4:14; 7:38-39; 2 Cor 5:17-18; Rom 12:6-8; Mt 7:20; Rom 8:28-30; Mt 5:48; Cf. 2 Tim 4; Rev 21:2; Mt 16:24. --Dataclarifier (talk) 18:24, 3 November 2019 (EST)
You're a day late and dollar short. You're already on record claiming that a work - physical baptism - is necessary for salvation. That's what this whole discussion has been about. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 18:36, 3 November 2019 (EST)
God does the work of salvation in baptism through the power of the Holy Spirit in sacramental water baptism which He ordained as the ordinary means of salvation ex opere operato, not man.--Dataclarifier (talk) 18:45, 3 November 2019 (EST)
Secondly, elsewhere on this page you asked, "Where does it say the church can't save?" I responded by saying even the Catholic church does not teach that the church can save. You just dug out church teaching:
The Catholic Church teaches instead that salvation is solely by the grace and justification of Jesus Christ alone by the power of the Holy Spirit through baptism.
To answer your latest posting, you've insisted that the physical work of water baptism is necessary for salvation. Both the Bible and the confused doctrine of men you cite refute you. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 18:55, 3 November 2019 (EST)
You very cleverly distorted, contradicted and falsified the teaching in CCC 819 "Christ's Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation". --Dataclarifier (talk) 19:27, 3 November 2019 (EST)
Read your own posting. It says Christ saves, not the church. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 19:37, 3 November 2019 (EST)
To put it bluntly - baptism does not save. Only the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ saves. All else is another gospel, which is no gospel at all. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 19:02, 3 November 2019 (EST)
To put it bluntly - "baptism saves you now" 1 Peter 3:21. --Dataclarifier (talk) 19:27, 3 November 2019 (EST)
So which is it? the work of Christ or work of a believer who is baptized that saves? RobSDe Plorabus Unum 19:33, 3 November 2019 (EST)
Both: Christ and the baptizer in one body. The sanctifying work of Christ through baptism. "Christ loved the Church and gave himself up for her, that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, that he might present the church to himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish." Ephesians 5:25-27. "He saved us, not because of deeds done by us in righteousness, but in virtue of his own mercy, by the λουτρού water-washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit which he poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that we might be justified by his grace and become heirs in hope of eternal life." Titus 3:5-7. "Except a person be born of water and the Spirit, a person cannot enter the kingdom of God." John 3:5.
--Dataclarifier (talk) 22:22, 3 November 2019 (EST)
Huh? Why is it so difficult to answer a simple question (and for good measure, you toss in washing of water with the word, again). You know good and well that only the shed blood of Jesus and his resurrection brings our salvation. You also know salvation is by the grace of God, and cannot be earned by works. Why can't you just say that? Stop refuting God, and denying God's work, and making the claim that your salvation is dependent on an action on YOUR part. That, is another gospel, which is no gospel at all. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 22:43, 3 November 2019 (EST)
[added later] Why can't you just say that? with the mouth one confesses and is saved. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 08:11, 5 November 2019 (EST)
Three scriptural texts demonstrate that it is Christ himself doing the work of baptism for salvation directly through the members of his Church by what they do in obedience to his will in baptism, which he himself ordained as the ordinary means of salvation.—"Now you are the body of Christ and individually members of it." 1 Corinthians 12:27. "for God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure." Philippians 2:13. "There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call, one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of us all, who is above all and through all and in all." Ephesians 4:4-6. "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the end of the world. Matthew 28:19-10.--Dataclarifier (talk) 22:54, 3 November 2019 (EST) (this edit was prepared ready to post just before discovering at the same time an edit conflict by the following edits by RobSmith below)
Here's a good refutation of the 1 Peter 3:21 citation as meaning you need to be baptized to be saved: [24] --1990'sguy (talk) 22:47, 3 November 2019 (EST)
That is very good. The problem is, it is lost on someone who does not understand what salvation is in the first place.
God does not need our help for anything. God does not need man to interpret what he says. God does not need us to perform a ritual cause Jesus' death and resurrection isn't quite sufficient. God didn't need David to build a house for him. God didn't need Abraham to sleep with Hagar to speed God's promise of a son along. When we do God these 'favors' to help him along, cause God evidently is incapable of performing some tasks, is when we get into trouble.
{inserted later] Another example is Moses: God told him to strike the rock once, but he figured God needed a little help or wasn't clear in his instructions, and in anger gave it a few more whacks.
It is foolishness to speak of baptism when you do not even know what faith, grace, or salvation is. First things first. Let this be a lesson to students. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 23:26, 3 November 2019 (EST)
I was baptized by water and the Spirit, but I didn't do it. Therefore my salvation was not dependent on an action on MY part. You keep insisting that we baptize ourselves and do the work ourselves. No. I did nothing. Jesus did, by washing me with his precious blood in the water of regeneration. Sacramental baptism is done to us and for us by Jesus Christ Himself by water and the Spirit. No Christian, Protestant, Orthodox, Catholic does the work to save himself. None of us baptized ourselves. If you still think baptism is a work I did to myself to be saved you are wrong. I didn't do it. Baptism by water and the Spirit is the supreme grace of God. Pure gift bestowed. No one can earn it for himself, and no one can do it to himself or for himself. It's done to us, not by us. Baptism is not a work of our own salvation. It's the work of Jesus by his blood. --Dataclarifier (talk) 23:38, 3 November 2019 (EST)
Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.” – Baptism now saves you. John 3:5; 1 Peter 3:21. Plain and simple, easy to understand. But you still just don't get it. --Dataclarifier (talk) 23:53, 3 November 2019 (EST)
Ok. Very Good. Let's back up now.
Why do we need salvation? (Note: My question is "Why do we need salvation?", not "Why do we need baptism?"). RobSDe Plorabus Unum 23:48, 3 November 2019 (EST)
Why?
“Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.” – Baptism now saves you. --Dataclarifier (talk) 23:57, 3 November 2019 (EST)
Why do we need salvation?
“Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.” – Baptism now saves you. --Dataclarifier (talk) 23:57, 3 November 2019 (EST)
Why do we need salvation?
God is not willing that any should perish! 2 Peter 3:9. The promise is to you and to your children. Acts 2:39 --Dataclarifier (talk) 00:04, 4 November 2019 (EST)
Does sin have anything to do with it? RobSDe Plorabus Unum 00:00, 4 November 2019 (EST)
Ok, so you told me how to enter the Kingdom of God, but you didn't tell me anything about the need to confess my sins (If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins) Why do I need salvation? What am I being saved from? RobSDe Plorabus Unum 00:14, 4 November 2019 (EST)
The Catholic Church can tell you, all based on the Bible. It's all set forth clearly in the The Catechism of the Catholic Church, Part Three: Life in Christ, Section One: Man's Vocation: Life in the Spirit, Chapter Three: God's Salvation: Law and Grace, Article 2: Grace and Justification, I-IV, numbers 1987-2029 - citing abundant Bible support, Rom 3:22; cf. 6:3-4; Rom 6:8-11; Cf. 1 Cor 12; Jn 15:1-4; Mt 4:17; Rom 3:21-26; Cf. Rom 7:22; Eph 3:16; Rom 6:19, 22; Jn 1:12-18; 17:3; Rom 8:14-17; 2 Pet 1:3-4; 1 Cor 2:7-9; Jn 4:14; 7:38-39; 2 Cor 5:17-18; Rom 12:6-8; Mt 7:20; Rom 8:28-30; Mt 5:48; Cf. 2 Tim 4; Rev 21:2; Mt 16:24.
If you have a teachable spirit, you will have your answers. “Go thou and learn." 1 Corinthians 8:2
--Dataclarifier (talk) 00:45, 4 November 2019 (EST)
(you weren't willing to wait)
I already told you I know it's in there, somewhere. But God's message of salvation has gotten lost among doctrines of men. Do yourself a favor, don't preach on baptism until you can explain what salvation is and why people need it. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 01:23, 4 November 2019 (EST)
Ok, I'll answer for you (since the answer is one or two words and I don't feel like waiting two hours to see you spam the page again with more irrelevant nonsense).
Sin.
Alternatively, some might say the wrath of God, which is equally correct.
For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved. (Romans 10:10, where this whole discussion began). RobSDe Plorabus Unum 00:30, 4 November 2019 (EST)
Proverbs 14:7
“Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.”
Baptism now saves you.
This grace was given to make all men see what is the plan of the mystery of God who created all things; that through the Church the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known to the principalities and powers in the heavenly places. This was according to the eternal purpose which he has realized in Christ Jesus our Lord. Ephesians 3:8-11.
Know how one ought to behave in the household of God, which is the church of God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth. 1 Timothy 3:15
Your interminable argument is not with me but with the doctrine of the Catholic Church. [25] [26]
You cannot win. I have helped you all I can, but you still just don't get it. Now I must attend to far more important matters. --Dataclarifier (talk) 01:28, 4 November 2019 (EST)
Bingo. You got it. My argument is with the Pharisaical traditions of the Catholic church, as Christ's were with the scribes and Pharisees of his day. Making the word of God to no effect, preaching another gospel which is no gospel at all. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 01:47, 4 November 2019 (EST)
Romans 10:9-10, again
if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
  • believe in thine heart - faith.
  • confess with thy mouth - the only action required on your part.

This is true repentance - i.e. a change of heart and change of mind about (a) sin, (b) what God says about sin, (c) God, (d) what God says about Himself. The moment you confess (i.e. vocalize) these spiritual truths from a sincere heart, you become resurrected from the dead and are spiritually born. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 01:08, 4 November 2019 (EST)

Point one of the analysis

Point one of the analysis. From the Bible itself we see that the Bible must be "rightly divided" and interpreted by the "leaders" and "guardians of the flock" so that we are not "carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the cunning of men, by their craftiness in deceitful wiles".
In my youth, age 8-14, I sometimes asked my Grace Baptist pastor to confirm what I thought I understood from my Bible reading because what I found in reading it surprised me and I wanted to check my conclusions from my reading of the Bible alone, and he corrected my errors of understanding, because there were other parts of the Bible I either hadn't read or had forgotten and had failed to take into account, and from age 15-17 Pastor Archie Veltman, Southtown Baptist, Des Moines.
More than the Bible alone was needed. That's why we have Sunday School teachers to guide and interpret the Bible for the children. Even sola scriptura Christians need more than the Bible alone. That's why pastoral guardians of the congregation are needed and appointed to preach doctrine to their flocks, ostensibly so they won't go astray as a result of their personal reading of the Bible. Paul's listings in Ephesians 4:11-16 and 1 Corinthians 12:27-28 do not mention the Bible as necessary for the upbuilding of the body of Christ. The Bible is authoritative, but it is insufficient of itself alone, without guidance in understanding. That's why we have need of "Bible lesson" materials, and seminaries of pastoral Bible training for future pastors and Christian educators. The overwhelming multitude of online Bible commentary sites and Christian apologetics sites by sola scriptura Bible Christians is proof that even they acknowledge that the Bible itself, by itself, is not solely authoritative. Still, the scriptures can be twisted (KJV "wrested") by unprincipled men to their destruction and the destruction of those who follow them 1 Pt 3:15-18.
Your analysis, above, concluded that the argument is "The Bible, or Word of God, is not authoritative". Essentially a correct analysis of the argument. It is authoritative, even according to Catholic doctrine, but not by itself alone (The Cathechism of the Catholic Church CCC numbers 74-141). Whether Independent, Protestant, Orthodox or Catholic, the Bible is always interpreted by the differing Christian groups according to particular doctrinal principles not written in the Bible. For example, no text of the Bible says, "The Bible (Scripture) is the sole rule of faith for the man of God." It says rather that "the scriptures are useful / profitable". 2 Timothy 3:13-17
"while evil men and impostors will go on from bad to worse, deceivers and deceived. But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have firmly believed, knowing from whom you learned it and how from childhood you have been acquainted with the sacred writings which are able to instruct you for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work."
It does not say "the sacred writings which are able to instruct you for salvation through faith alone".
It does not say "All scripture is inspired by God as the sole rule of faith".
It does not say that faith alone is enough, but it says that the scriptures make us "equipped for every good work". "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them." Ep 2:10
James says "You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone." James 2:24.
Martin Luther contradicted this doctrine. He said James is a "strawy epistle" and that he found nothing of the Gospel in it, and removed it to an appendix of uninspired writings in his German Bible.
The Bible is profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, but works are necessary, since a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. The Bible is authoritative, but not by itself alone. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by User:Dataclarifier (talk)
I can speak freely because I am from a devout Catholic background. While I have embraced the teachings of Luther, Wesley, and even Calvin, I'm the first guy to get offended when my Protestant brethren trash talk the Catholic church. I am Catholic in the true sense as articulated in the Epistolen Katholika (I used to like tweeking Lutherans by explaining to them how they really are Catholic).
Anywho, IMO, the Catholic bureaucracy is kinda like the Deep State of organized Christianity. It's become corrupted with the doctrines of men. They have watered down the Word of God. But I can attest, the Word is still there, cause I heard it and learned it from an early age. I had to go through a period of detox as all bible believing Catholics do, of separating man made church doctrine from the Word of God to understand God's message. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 23:23, 2 November 2019 (EDT)
Interesting - my neighbor lady stopped by while I was working on this, and I tried to explain to her what I was doing. I've known her only as a Christian, but she seemed to understand the issue and arguments, so I asked her, "Are you Catholic" and she said yes. Without prompting she said, "You can only be baptized after you become a believer" and laughed at the notion that it could be otherwise.
I suspect bible believing Catholics are way larger in number than most people suspect - maybe even larger in number than regular Roman Catholic church attendees in the United States. Simply because someone abandons the Roman church teaching (i.e. doctrines of men making the Word of God of no effect) doesn't automatically make them Protestant or even accepted by Protestants since birth. Secular Jews and Messianic Jews go through a similar identity crisis. Most are like myself, we embrace the label of Christian or bible believing Catholic, and reject the label of being religious or adhering to the doctrines of men. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 15:02, 3 November 2019 (EST)
What's happened to the Roman church is nothing new; see 2 Chronicles 34:14-15. The Word of God was lost in the House of the Lord. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 15:12, 3 November 2019 (EST)

Point two of the analysis

Point two of the analysis. From the Bible we see that Christians are "baptized into the body of Christ" and that "just as the body is one and has many members, so it is with Christ"—"you are the body of Christ and individually members of it. And God has appointed in the Church" several ministries, among them the "guardians of the flock to feed the Church of God which he obtained with his own blood". The members of the Church are all "baptized into Christ", "For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body". "If a man does not remain in me, he is cast forth as a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire and burned." "And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire." Rv 20:15
Your analysis, above, concluded that the argument is "Salvation is dependent upon church membership". The Bible supports that argument, as seen above in the passages cited from the Bible alone. But church membership is much broader than being legally listed on the church rolls of membership in a particular Christian congregation. According to Catholic doctrine all who are baptized by water and the Spirit with the word are members of the body of Christ, and united to the Catholic Church, even if imperfectly, without being aware of it (The Catechism of the Catholic Church CCC numbers 830-848). Membership in the body of Christ himself extends even beyond the visible boundaries of the Catholic Church, embracing all who have been baptized into his body "unwilling that any should perish" 2 Pt 3:9.
"Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it...Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience—those too may achieve eternal salvation" CCC 846, 847.
And as seen above in the passages cited from the Bible alone, those who do not abide in the body of Christ are cast out and burned.

Point three of the analysis

Point three of the analysis. From the Bible we see that even if a person is baptized into the body of Christ and believes, subsequent loss of belief and falling away (παραπίπτω parapipto "apostasy") from Christ afterward will condemn them to hell (Hebrews 6:7-8; John 15:6), unless someone brings them back to repentance (James 5:19-20; The Catechism of the Catholic Church CCC numbers 811-870 and 1422-1470.). "You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone", "For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so faith apart from works is dead." "For he will render to every man according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life." Rm 2:6
We also see from the Bible in the words of Jesus himself "every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. And whoever says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but whoever speaks against the Holy spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come." It is evident from the word of Jesus himself that his sacrificial death of infinite and eternal value is insufficient to cleanse this mortal sin of blasphemous and irredeemable unrepentance.
Your analysis, above, concluded that the argument is "While baptism qualifies a person for adoption into God's family, it is no guarantee; salvation still must be earned by good works, or at least the sacrificial death of Jesus is insufficient to cleanse one of certain sins." The Bible supports this argument, as seen above in the passages cited from the Bible alone. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by User:Dataclarifier (talk)
Holy Spirit = Word of God. This is why tampering with the Holy Spirit is so risky, adding to, taking away, or nullifying. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 23:48, 2 November 2019 (EDT)

conclusion: the analysis of the argument is supported sola scriptura

Your analysis of the argument is a fairly accurate summary, with some minor provisions added for clarification. Every point set out as the essential argument in the analysis is found in the Bible
(a) Scripture is authoritative when properly interpreted but insufficient of itself alone
(b) Salvation is dependent on being united to Jesus Christ and abiding in the one body of his Church as a member of his body
(c) Baptism unites the baptized to the body of Christ as a member of his own body built into the temple of the Spirit, but without good works as the sustaining fruit of salvation the member bears no fruit and is lost (cast forth), and the sacrificial death of Jesus is insufficient to cleanse one of unrepented sins and of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.
The Bible supports all of these points of the analysis. What remains is the question of whether or not to accept the analysis sola scriptura, based on all of the scriptural support for it cited here. Use the principle of "Scripture interprets scripture" without disregarding any part of scripture cited here in support of the three points of analysis.
Jesus said to the lawyer (to an expert in the Law of Moses), "What is written in the law? How do you read it?" Lk 10:25-28
He also said, "My teaching is not mine, but his who sent me; if any man's will is to do his will, he shall know whether the teaching is from God or whether I speak on my own authority." Jn 7:16-17
"Ask, and it will be given you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For every one who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened." Mt 7:7-8
"Let the evildoer still do evil, and the filthy still be filthy, and the righteous still do right, and the holy still be holy. Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my recompense, to repay every one for what he has done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end. Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and that they may enter the city by the gates." Rv 22:11-14
--Dataclarifier (talk) 14:00, 2 November 2019 (EDT)

Objections

Ok. So you deny the authority of scripture. Now all you have is are the doctrines of men. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 22:21, 2 November 2019 (EDT)
All of my citations of scripture prove that I accept the authority of scripture. It is you who have rejected all the evidence cited from the Bible. You have closed your heart to the word of God. That is my final word. --Dataclarifier (talk) 22:30, 2 November 2019 (EDT)
True (all are from scripture). Now go back and re-read 1 Corinthians chapter 2. Then answer the question, Was the gospel preached to Israel in the wilderness? (the term "gospel" is a Greek word which does not appear anywhere in the Old Testament Hebrew). Then re-read Exodus 30-33, and see how (1) Moses saw God, (2) Moses had the mind of Christ, (3) Moses offered himself as a sacrifice for the sin of the people but God rejected his offer, (4) Moses was saved by grace.
ye are not under the law, but under grace.
Now, there are carnal Christians (1 Cor 3:3) and baby Christians (I call them milk and cookie Christians 1 Pet 2:2); then there are meat and potato Christians (Heb 5:14 strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil). Carnal Christians and baby Christians are basically the same thing - they still wrestle with the doctrine of salvation by grace versus law keeping. They think faith is a work or a task that they must perform to attain salvation. But I'm getting way ahead of myself here.
Forget baptism, for now. Answer these questions:
  • What is faith?
  • What is salvation?
  • What is God's grace?
Once we have an understanding of these, then we can discuss baptism. Water baptism does not give anyone an understanding of these key concepts. Spiritual baptism can accelerate the process. But dogged pride, study, and learning can get you there, too. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 00:28, 3 November 2019 (EDT)
Answer these questions above; don't spam the page with own comments. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 07:26, 3 November 2019 (EST)

Dataclarifier: Your inability to address these three questions harkens back to Hebrews chapter 3:

They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways.
For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses.

This is your gospel of salvation based on baptism, they have not known my ways...some, when they heard [the Word of God] did provoke. And that 's what your gospel of infant baptism produces - people who do not know God's word and could care less, and think they are saved because someone performed some magic abracadabra ritual over them at birth - No different than the chosen who told Jesus We be not born of fornication . We be Abraham seed, in their pride thinking they are legitimate heirs of salvation by birthright. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 11:04, 3 November 2019 (EST)


Romans was not addressed to those outside the family of God:
"To all God's beloved in Rome, who are called to be saints. Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ." Rm 1:7
Clarification: The first seven chapters of Romans refers to those outside the family of God; chapter 8 onwards refers to those who are in Christ. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 07:36, 3 November 2019 (EST)
(RobS) "So no, those who are saved by grace shall not be repaid according to their works."
You have just contradicted the Word of God, and condemned yourself.
(He has since moved the edit in which he made this self-condemning assertion, quoted by me here, but he did not remove my directly relevant response, and thus leaving it without a context for the reader to evaluate properly as making any sense.)--Dataclarifier (talk) 16:09, 3 November 2019 (EST)
Then explain the meaning of the parable at Matthew chapter 20 (the parable of the householder). RobSDe Plorabus Unum 07:38, 3 November 2019 (EST)
  • For he will render to every man according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are factious and do not obey the truth, but obey wickedness, there will be wrath and fury. There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, but glory and honor and peace for every one who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek. For God shows no partiality. Rm 2:6-11
Ok, let's digress momentarily. Paul preached a Universal or Catholic gospel (God shows no partiality). The first century was marked by racism (We be Abraham's seed, not born of fornication). People thought they were entitled to God's grace and salvation based on birth. Others, like Peter, accepted lowlife gentile scum as being equals in Christ (Call not thou unclean what God has made clean) yet still had problems sitting down to eat with them. Even Jesus said in the parable of the Greek woman, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel. But Paul clarifies, using Johm 3:16, Whosoever, regardless of race sex, national origin, etc.
You're taking what is a primary Catholic doctrine, that those outside the Covenants of Abraham and David, can be grafted in to the family of God, and perverting it into a universal doctrine of Law, which is no gospel at all. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 09:00, 3 November 2019 (EST)
  • You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. James 2:24
This has been debated to death. James says works are evidence of faith. Nowhere does James say you are saved by works. It's basically a discussion of the practical (James) versus the theoretical (Paul). James is rebuking carnal Christians - people who are Christian in name only - and have not fully put their trust in Christ. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 09:07, 3 November 2019 (EST)
  • Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my recompense, to repay every one for what he has done. Revelation 22:12.
    --Dataclarifier (talk) 01:17, 3 November 2019 (EST)
Yep. To those grafted in, salvation from judgement. To those who reject God's grace, judgement. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 09:07, 3 November 2019 (EST)


We've been over this:
Rom. 4:15 the law worketh wrath
Rom. 5:9 having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him.
RobSDe Plorabus Unum 07:13, 3 November 2019 (EST)

Wrath vs. grace

This point is crucial and needs revisiting.

Those who are under grace are not under wrath. Those who are saved by grace are saved from wrath. This is the doctrine of salvation. To claim that God shall repay all men "according to their works" is not the gospel of grace. It is preaching a gospel of wrath, which is no gospel at all. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 10:32, 4 November 2019 (EST)

Love more than faith is necessary for salvation

After almost 73 years of life, and almost 61 of them believing in Jesus, I am convinced that it is not faith finally that saves, but genuine love in the soul, inclining toward God, in response to the gift of his grace; with the opposite of love, selfishness in the soul, inclining away from God, in response to the offering presence of the gift of his grace which is rejected.

"And this is the judgment, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For everyone who does evil hates the light, and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. But he who does what is true comes to the light, that it may be clearly seen that his deeds have been wrought in God."

The Bible testifies that even infants not yet born are capable of love or hatred toward God, who looks on the heart, and sees what no one on earth can see. That's what I put in the main article:

According to the Bible, even infants and those in the womb are able to praise God or go astray from him by sin. See the following:
Job 31:18; Psalm 8:2; Psalm 139:16; Isaiah 49:1; Jeremiah 1:5; Matthew 21:16; Luke 1:41; Luke 18:15; Acts 2:39; Acts 17:27; 2 Peter 3:9; compare Psalm 58:3; Ezekiel 18:4; Romans 9:13.

St. James testified that even the demons believe in God, and they tremble, because they did not love God, but rebelled and fell. The Letter to the Hebrews says

"The word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and spirit, of joints and marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart. And before him no creature is hidden, but all are open and laid bare to the eyes of him with whom we have to do."

If any one wants to do His will, you will come to know the truth. And God will deal with you, for he is unwilling that any should perish. The more that those who love God come to know of his will in all things the more they willingly seek to fulfill it. This includes coming to faith in God, reading the scriptures, seeking his true Church to be able to worship with his people, and obeying whatever he has revealed to be most pleasing to him in conduct and belief and devotion of worship. Not every human being has such ability or mental capacity for understanding. It has been said that there is no one so blind as one who will not see, lest they change. Nevertheless, he who has ears to hear will hear, and to him who has will more be given. And those who do not understand or know him he will love until within the depths of their soul known only to him they accept or reject his calling, "in the hope that they might feel after him and find him."

"The Spirit of the Lord filleth the whole world." Wisdom 1:7
"hope does not disappoint us, because God's love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us."
A final note from me on this page. I recommend to anyone willing to inquire after the truth and is able to do so, to watch the EWTN program with Marcus Grodi, "The Journey Home". He interviews people who were Catholic and left and preached and witnessed against Catholicism and then came back to the Catholic Church based on the Bible, and people who had never been Catholic and were fervently anti-Catholic based on the Bible, who were later convinced to change their minds, by their growing knowledge of the Bible and the discrepancies between it and what they had been taught, and by the result of their prayer for guidance to God, prompting them to obey the Bible, check the facts, and find out what the Church actually teaches, instead of what they had been erroneously told it teaches, to take instruction and join the Catholic Church as the living body of Christ having the fullness of the Gospel of God.
At the age of 12, when I "went forward to accept Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior", I silently prayed, "Lord, if you ever show me truth that even totally overthrows what I think is the truth, then help me to drop that and cling to what you give me." I testify to every reader of this page that the Lord granted my prayer in full.
I commend every reader here to the grace of the Holy Spirit and to the prayerful intercession of St. Jude, the patron of lost causes and impossible cases, and of St. Mary the Mother of Jesus, that you will come to know the loving truth of God and always seek to do his will, no matter what it may be. Amen.
--Dataclarifier (talk) 19:58, 2 November 2019 (EDT)
Dataclarifier, the Bible is clear that people are saved through faith. Ephesians 2:8: "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast."
I do realize that true faith will have works, but ultimately it is through faith that one is saved.
I think there is a lot of unnecessary friction on this page because you don't want to accept this matter.Wikignome72 (talk) 10:53, 4 November 2019 (EST)
Amother important concept is that "God is a fair judge" as per Psalm 7:11. Therefore, the unbaptised thief on the cross went to heaven (Jesus told the thief on the cross who repented that "Today you will see me in paradise"). I do think that an obedient Christian with a good attitude will want to get baptised, yet the notion that the thief on the cross did not go to heaven when Jesus clearly said He was going to heaven, is an unreasonable idea.Wikignome72 (talk) 10:59, 4 November 2019 (EST)


A word on pride

It is pride, the original sin, that hinders us and keeps us from the doctrine of grace. Pride makes us believe that there must be something that we can do to aid God in obtaining our salvation. Rather than accept the finished work of Christ, our pride does not let us humble ourselves before the cross. We insert exceptions, "yes, Jesus saves, contingent upon (insert exception, such as church teaching, water baptism, etc etc etc)", rendering the Word of God to no effect through man made church doctrine, changing the unfettered doctrine of grace, which requires us to humble ourselves and put away pride, into a doctrine of law and bring us again under subjection to God's wrath. This is that other gospel Paul warned of, which is no gospel at all. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 10:36, 5 November 2019 (EST)


Suggestion

Rather than spamming talk pages, you could take your essays and place them in articles such as Essay:Analysis (or some such tile), place them in Category:Essays, and even if there is no objection from other editors, provide a link from the main article to the Essay.

Then, if people wish to debate your Essay, it can be done on that Essay talk page, rather than clogging up the mainspace article talk page. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 14:24, 4 November 2019 (EST)

Answer: You should have heeded your own advice here from the beginning and linked your own objections and arguments to an Essay page, instead of persisting in your argument ad nihilo, as you did with your own voluminously redundant spamming (a term you used for all of my answers to your interminable objections)—instead of limiting your comments on the Talk page to a simple, clearly stated "point-counterpoint" basic doctrinal expression. I stand on the authority of the Bible. My doctrinal position is Catholic precisely because of the Bible. The Catholic Church was not founded in the beginning by anyone other than Jesus. The orthodox catholic Church was not founded by those who disobeyed their leaders, and went out from them, and taught a different gospel than the one they had been given and had received at first, and then claimed (in contradiction of the promises of Jesus) that Jesus had not remained with the Church he had personally founded, claiming that the Holy Spirit was not leading into all truth the shepherding leadership of the guardians of the Church they went out from. The Bible points by the irrefutable ordinary evidence of documented history itself that the true Church must be the Catholic and Orthodox Church, so that on the infallible basis of the promises of the New Testament in the words of Jesus and Paul and John that she would be led into all truth for ever, therefore, whatever doctrine she dogmatically proposes for belief must be the truth—a factual, historically-attested conclusion based entirely on the infallible words of the Bible. John 14:16-17; 16:12-13; Matthew 28:18-20; 1 John 2:18-19; Galatians 1:6-9, I directed you and the other readers of the Talk page to links that access actual Catholic doctrine solidly rooted in scripture. You spurned it with contempt. You just don't get it. I believe you will not stop. You even tracked me down to continue your mocking contempt on my talk page, with a hypocritical suggestion that you yourself did not follow (Fallacy of Special pleading – "The other form of special pleading involves simply ignoring evidence unfavorable to one's position. One engaged in this form of special pleading concentrates only on one aspect of an issue, or a subset of aspects favorable to the person making the claim."). I will not respond again. You have totally convinced me it would be pointless and futile. I have much more important concerns than dignifying your apparently intransigent and unending obstinant persistence against an answer adequately expressed with substantial backing from the Bible and consistently reiterated as true doctrine. I am a Bible apologist, who happens to be Catholic. I know the scriptures. I have access to twenty centuries of Greek linguistic scholarship and Bible scholarship and textual critical analysis that supports the truth of the Bible, Orthodox, Catholic and Protestant. I stand by them. You dismiss them. Your answers and objections on Talk:Infant baptism have overwhelmingly characterized you as apparently not knowing the Bible, apparently not knowing the Greek New Testament text, apparently unable to understand the simple, plain and obvious meaning of the abundant texts of accurately translated Bible versions in Greek and English, and when answered with the actual words of scripture that clearly demonstrate to anyone, even an eight-year-old, from the basis of sola scriptura (scripture interpreting scripture with the words of scripture alone), all cited and quoted in context, that your doctrinal position has no backing and is opposed to the word of God, you still persist in contradicting them! Seventeen centuries of Christian knowledge and understanding of the Bible regarding salvation and faith and works from the end of the first century through the Reformation into the end of the eighteenth century stand solidly against your opposition to infant baptism, and they utterly reject with one united voice the arguments of the credobaptist "Believer's baptism only" position as "giving heed to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons through the pretensions of liars whose consciences are seared." That is why in the sixteenth century the Anabaptists were condemned by all of the Christian world, Orthodox, Catholic, Protestant. I worked in health care, "hands-on", for 42 years after I returned home "back in the world" 1976 to Iowa. My own 91-year-old mother who is astonishingly healthy (How I know!), a very astute and intelligent, clear-headed and very well-informed former Lutheran, and later former Baptist, who became Catholic shortly after I did, along with my father, advised me stop responding to your taunts and "puerile" attempts at provocation, to simply let you "rant and rave". You cannot win. Acts 5:39. I will not answer any further edits from you. If you do I will not respond. If you disrupt my answer here with inserted commentary as you did on Talk:Infant baptism I will delete it. I entrust you to God as the One Who will fully deal with you according to His Mercy and Justice. Do not contact me again. --Dataclarifier (talk) 01:48, 5 November 2019 (EST)
coulda woulda shoulda. Wikis are about collaborative editing. My suggestion is a way for you to preserve your hard wok in full for easy access by the public.
Good luck with your Gospel of Wrath. You are going to need it. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 07:29, 5 November 2019 (EST)
Oh, and let these scriptures burn into your consciousness:
He hath made foolish the wisdom of the wise.
He catcheth the crafty in their own craftiness.
The word of God is quick and powerful....
A word spoken in due season, how sweet it is.
RobSDe Plorabus Unum 07:41, 5 November 2019 (EST)
No matter what, it's a good idea to be concise on talk pages. I also don't think RobS has done anything deserving of cutting off all communication with you, other than the crime of persistently disagreeing with you (which is bound to happen on a wiki with multiple theological viewpoints). --1990'sguy (talk) 08:03, 5 November 2019 (EST)
It's actually a gentle disagreement; I think he thinks he'll be heard for his much talking, whereas the Word of God is quick and powerful. Trust the Word. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 08:22, 5 November 2019 (EST)
  • instead of limiting your comments on the Talk page to a simple, clearly stated "point-counterpoint" basic doctrinal expression - HA! Read the page! What planet are you from? Anyone can see I responded to 20-30 and 50 lines of text with 1 or 2 clearly stated, concise lines of scriptural doctrines.
  • they think they shall be heard for their much speaking
  • The Word of God is quick and powerful.

Have faith, my friend. Put your faith in the word, not in the doctrines of men. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 12:29, 6 November 2019 (EST)

Interesting point

What's interesting that has been overlooked in this lengthy discussion is, Dataclarifier comes from a Protestant upbringing and left it at an early age for the Roman Catholic church, and I was raised devout Catholic (attended Catholic school, my mother taught at a Catholic, my eldest brother was a Seminarian) and left it at an early age to embrace Protestant doctrines. From this, I take as fact that both Catholic and Protestant churches have failed miserably to teach God's message to their own children.

This is not surprising. IMO it underscores the truth that God will hold each individual to account, and a person's relationship with God is personal, not based on communal ties. We can get distracted in the hunt for "the true church," when we really need know God individually and personally. In our discussion, I thought I got Dataclarifier to agree with me, that the Church does not save, Jesus Christ alone can save. Both our own personal testimonies are that the church failed both of us miserably when we both were young, naive, impressionable, and most vulnerable. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 09:45, 5 November 2019 (EST)


Dataclarifier, the Bible is clear that people are saved through faith. Ephesians 2:8: "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast."
I do realize that true faith will have works, but ultimately it is through faith that one is saved.
I think there is a lot of unnecessary friction on this page because you don't want to accept this matter.Wikignome72 (talk) 10:53, 4 November 2019 (EST)
Amother important concept is that "God is a fair judge" as per Psalm 7:11. Therefore, the unbaptised thief on the cross went to heaven (Jesus told the thief on the cross who repented that "Today you will see me in paradise"). I do think that an obedient Christian with a good attitude will want to get baptised, yet the notion that the thief on the cross did not go to heaven when Jesus clearly said He was going to heaven, is an unreasonable idea.Wikignome72 (talk) 10:59, 4 November 2019 (EST)

More evidence those who are under grace are saved from wrath and judgement

  • John 1:12 As many as received him gave he power to become sons of God
  • Luke 11:11 Who among you if your child asks for a fish would give him a snake?

Once we are adopted into God's family (Romans 8:15; this is the real meaning of "catholic" - those outside the covenants of Abraham) we are nolonger under God's wrath (Romans 5:9). We are saved by grace. This is the meaning of salvation by grace, we will not be repaid according to our works. Our works are as filthy rags.

Any other gospel that teaches that God's children, i.e. those adopted into his family, will be repaid according to their works, is no gospel at all. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 17:06, 5 November 2019 (EST)

What happens if you shoot someone on Fifth Avenue? Asking for an orange friend. JohnZ (talk) 17:20, 5 November 2019 (EST)
Well, if you're a child of God, I suppose the same thing would happen that happened to Moses who killed the Egyptian, David who who killed Uzziah, Jeffrey Dahmer who killed 17 gays, or O.J. Simpson who murdered his wife.
Funny, ever think about that? Why did God choose two murderers, David and Moses, to write substantial portions of the Bible (Pentateuch, Psalms, much of Kings and Chronicles, etc)? Why did God choose two murderers to teach us about himself?
I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, And bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent
And I thank him and praise him every minute of every hour of every day for doing it. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 17:43, 5 November 2019 (EST)
I'll spare you my full thoughts on Old Testament God's very stable genius. Seriously, though, are you arguing for:
  1. a kind of Calvinist "once saved, always saved", or
  2. do you actually believe it's possible to lose your golden ticket to Heaven through sufficiently wicked acts?
JohnZ (talk) 19:23, 5 November 2019 (EST)
Once saved, always saved. There was a time I was very skeptical of it, but Calvin convinced me. Anything else is a Gospel of Works, rendering the work of Christ to no effect and making God a liar. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 20:32, 5 November 2019 (EST)
I think King Solomon is one of the best examples, although he probably died miserably and guilt ridden. OTOH, the spirit of God was taken from King Saul, but that was before the spirit without measure was given. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 20:38, 5 November 2019 (EST)
Thanks for a straightforward answer. JohnZ (talk) 21:03, 5 November 2019 (EST)

This should be easy to resolve.

An easy way to resolve this matter is to have a pro-infant babtism section and an anti-infant baptism section.

Giving both perspectives is essentially what was done in the Petrine Primacy article to resolve the conflict.

Why isn't that being done in this article? It seems like such an easy way to resolve this matter.

It seems to me some diplomacy has to be shown by both sides.

I suggest reading these articles on conflict resolution skills and putting them into practice:

https://blog.hubspot.com/service/conflict-resolution-skills

https://www.eaglesflight.com/blog/top-5-skills-needed-to-successfully-resolve-conflicts-in-the-workplace

https://www.helpguide.org/articles/relationships-communication/conflict-resolution-skills.htm

I hope this helps. Wikignome72 (talk) 17:44, 5 November 2019 (EST)

Yes and no. The real problem is Salvation. Look at that article. It's a mess. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 17:48, 5 November 2019 (EST)
It can be resolved. The Petrine Primacy article was resolved. If Wikipedia can have its Protestants, Catholics, Orthodox, etc begin to create an informative article, there is no reason why Conservapedia can't do the same.
It is just a matter of whether the parties geniunely want to resolve the matter.Wikignome72 (talk) 18:48, 5 November 2019 (EST)
Well, looking at the Salvation article, the Intro right now is a big problem - and it's been that way for years evidently. It needs substantial revision. I'm not certain I'm the guy who should begin it (like Peter Strzok, because of my partisan bias). Any help you can give there to get it started would be appreciated. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 18:53, 5 November 2019 (EST)
I have zero time to work on any articles. I am not sure when I will be free again.Wikignome72 (talk) 20:40, 5 November 2019 (EST)

Problem with Talk:Infant baptism

(The following comments were originally posted on Andy Schlafly's talk page. The post is copied here as a relevant part of the debate.)

Andy, RobS on the Talk:Infant baptism page is beginning to be a real problem. I tried to be patient but it's getting out of hand. Please take a look and see if the Talk page too should be locked. I'm not certain one way or the other, but I don't think he is posting any thing useful anymore, just repeating the same argument. It ceases to be an example of vigorous debate. The whole page has become bloated. I tried to be fair and answer every objection. It seems to be utterly counterproductive. If you do lock it, it will remain an example of debate on the issue. As before I trust your judgment. I'm not going back to look. Quite frankly it's been hard on my bloodpressure. Peace be with you. Michael Heart. --Dataclarifier (talk) 01:58, 3 November 2019 (EST)

I'll take a look but the general policy is to leave talk pages unlocked. You don't have to respond there and everyone knows that a talk page is merely a discussion that typically contains different viewpoints. Thanks.--Andy Schlafly (talk) 10:58, 3 November 2019 (EST)
Michael, you seem to have a tenuous relationship with the truth. I called you out on this in January, here, where you had falsely claimed that your user page had been vandalized, and that you had arranged for it to be locked.
And now you claim (4 sections above) that the infant baptism article has been vandalized. Aside from a notice from Andy that it has been locked, and a very few edits today by Wikignome72, who, as an admin, can blow past any locks, the page has 331 revisions, every one of them by you.
So now the discussion has, not surprisingly, moved to the talk page, and it is a very lively and robust discussion. And you now want that locked? That's not the way things are done on talk pages. Perhaps you would rather do your writing on a blog someplace, that lets you control comments from other people. I believe there are services on the internet, such as "blogspot", that let you do that. You might want to contact one of the User:Conservative people about doing that. But that isn't how things are done on talk pages on an open wiki. Especially now that the locking of the article pages has moved everything to the talk page.
SamHB (talk) 11:29, 3 November 2019 (EST)
Michael, the above rant is by a user who has been repeatedly blocked. Your edits are very welcome here and please ignore the rude tone above. Thanks.--Andy Schlafly (talk) 11:35, 3 November 2019 (EST)
Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that there is anything that Dataclarifier should or should not do. I think the robust discussion on the talk page is fine, and none of it bothers me. I apologize for anything that was considered rude. SamHB (talk) 21:05, 3 November 2019 (EST)

I don't think the talk page should be locked. CP has editors of different theological viewpoints, and inability to reconcile those different viewpoints shouldn't be an excuse to stop discussion of them. And to be fair, the vast majority of the text on the talk page are comments from Dataclarifier, which is fine, but because of that, it's not fair to put all the blame on RobS for the long text on the talk page. --1990'sguy (talk) 15:08, 3 November 2019 (EST)

And spamming a talk page is not discussion. Neither is removing other people's comments to remove them from context. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 15:37, 3 November 2019 (EST)
In fact, the mainspace "Infant baptism" page should also be unlocked -- there was zero edit warring on it, so Dataclarifier didn't even have a reason for requesting protection. --1990'sguy (talk) 15:52, 3 November 2019 (EST)
He's put a lot of work into all his stuff. Most of his postings on talk really belong in Essay space if he doesn't want to be interrupted by argument or refutation. Many of these discussions then could be held on an Essay space talk page.
His basic argument is that infant baptism brings salvation, yet he's never defined what salvation is despite repeated requests. Consequently, the discussion strays off into numerous other topics. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 17:08, 3 November 2019 (EST)
A link could even be made from Infant baptism to his Essays. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 17:13, 3 November 2019 (EST)

Andy, I'm more grateful than I can express for your remark above regarding my edits. (I do disregard the rude tone of the "rant".) I had come back to mention that I discovered that other sites on infant baptism and other related "hot-button" topics have talk pages that have been archived one, two, three, even eight times, full of comments and venom responding to their topics. Accordingly, I withdraw my request that Talk:Infant baptism be locked, so that there will be more opportunity for others to speak up and further enliven the debate. Eventually I suppose an archive will be necessary. I am absenting myself from that Talk page. It just means that I won't be available to be baited any more, and will no longer be anyone's favorite target. That may put out the fire. (Just take a look at my own talk page, at the remarks made at the bottom by RobSmith's "Suggestion", and my final definitive answer in response: User talk:Dataclarifier#Suggestion.) Pax vobis --Dataclarifier (talk) 03:43, 5 November 2019 (EST)

The mainspace "Infant baptism" page should be unprotected. There was absolutely no edit warring, and Dataclarifier dominated the page's edit history. --1990'sguy (talk) 07:59, 5 November 2019 (EST)
Dataclarifier, you wrote: "Quite frankly it's been hard on my blood pressure."
You should keep in mind that if people want to find answers to an issue, there are tons of resources on the internet plus God gives wisdom/answers to those who humbly seek Him. So if you see a page or two on the internet that you want to change, but cannot do so to your satisfaction, its certainly not the end of the world and certainly not worth getting your blood pressure up over. Wikignome72 (talk) 15:35, 5 November 2019 (EST)
Per RobSmith "Suggestion" on my talk page, I just created Debate: Infant baptism and moved into it most (not all) of the debate on the Talk:Infant baptism page, leaving intact on the original talk page at infant baptism the comments re the article, its structure and sources of information cited there, and posted a note redirecting all general comments on the topic to Debate: Infant baptism. I did the same on my own talk page. By the way, the blood pressure response was unexpected, and is entirely physiological and involuntary. I was surprised that it happened. I think my creation of the new debate page will be more useful. (I don't intend to contribute anything more to it.) --Dataclarifier (talk) 18:34, 5 November 2019 (EST)
(The "final definitive answer" that I posted on RobSmith's "Suggestion" entry on my Talk page, has also been included in the move of the debate from the Talk:Infant baptism page to Debate: Infant baptism. --Dataclarifier (talk) 22:11, 5 November 2019 (EST) - )
I was suggesting you place the original two lengthy sections on Protestantism versus Catholicism in one Article Essay space, minus the intervening comments, to preserve the original research. It just needs an appropriate title. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 23:03, 5 November 2019 (EST)
For example: Essay: Differing perspectives on infant baptism. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 01:25, 6 November 2019 (EST)

Remarks reposted on Talk:Infant baptism moved here below

More evidence those who are under grace are saved from wrath and judgement

  • John 1:12 As many as received him gave he power to become sons of God
  • Luke 11:11 Who among you if your child asks for a fish would give him a snake?

Once we are adopted into God's family (Romans 8:15; this is the real meaning of "catholic" - those outside the covenants of Abraham) we are nolonger under God's wrath (Romans 5:9). We are saved by grace. This is the meaning of salvation by grace, we will not be repaid according to our works. Our works are as filthy rags.

Any other gospel that teaches that God's children, i.e. those adopted into his family, will be repaid according to their works, is no gospel at all. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 17:06, 5 November 2019 (EST)

What happens if you shoot someone on Fifth Avenue? Asking for an orange friend. JohnZ (talk) 17:20, 5 November 2019 (EST)
Well, if you're a child of God, I suppose the same thing would happen that happened to Moses who killed the Egyptian, David who who killed Uzziah, Jeffrey Dahmer who killed 17 gays, or O.J. Simpson who murdered his wife.
Funny, ever think about that? Why did God choose two murderers, David and Moses, to write substantial portions of the Bible (Pentateuch, Psalms, much of Kings and Chronicles, etc)? Why did God choose two murderers to teach us about himself?
I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, And bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent
And I thank him and praise him every minute of every hour of every day for doing it. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 17:43, 5 November 2019 (EST)
I'll spare you my full thoughts on Old Testament God's very stable genius. Seriously, though, are you arguing for:
  1. a kind of Calvinist "once saved, always saved", or
  2. do you actually believe it's possible to lose your golden ticket to Heaven through sufficiently wicked acts?
JohnZ (talk) 19:23, 5 November 2019 (EST)
Once saved, always saved. There was a time I was very skeptical of it, but Calvin convinced me. Anything else is a Gospel of Works, rendering the work of Christ to no effect and making God a liar. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 20:32, 5 November 2019 (EST)
I think King Solomon is one of the best examples, although he probably died miserably and guilt ridden. OTOH, the spirit of God was taken from King Saul, but that was before the spirit without measure was given. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 20:38, 5 November 2019 (EST)
Thanks for a straightforward answer. JohnZ (talk) 21:03, 5 November 2019 (EST)

This should be easy to resolve.

An easy way to resolve this matter is to have a pro-infant babtism section and an anti-infant baptism section.

Giving both perspectives is essentially what was done in the Petrine Primacy article to resolve the conflict.

Why isn't that being done in this article? It seems like such an easy way to resolve this matter.

It seems to me some diplomacy has to be shown by both sides.

I suggest reading these articles on conflict resolution skills and putting them into practice:

https://blog.hubspot.com/service/conflict-resolution-skills

https://www.eaglesflight.com/blog/top-5-skills-needed-to-successfully-resolve-conflicts-in-the-workplace

https://www.helpguide.org/articles/relationships-communication/conflict-resolution-skills.htm

I hope this helps. Wikignome72 (talk) 17:44, 5 November 2019 (EST)

Yes and no. The real problem is Salvation. Look at that article. It's a mess. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 17:48, 5 November 2019 (EST)
It can be resolved. The Petrine Primacy article was resolved. If Wikipedia can have its Protestants, Catholics, Orthodox, etc begin to create an informative article, there is no reason why Conservapedia can't do the same.
It is just a matter of whether the parties geniunely want to resolve the matter.Wikignome72 (talk) 18:48, 5 November 2019 (EST)
Well, looking at the Salvation article, the Intro right now is a big problem - and it's been that way for years evidently. It needs substantial revision. I'm not certain I'm the guy who should begin it (like Peter Strzok, because of my partisan bias). Any help you can give there to get it started would be appreciated. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 18:53, 5 November 2019 (EST)
I have zero time to work on any articles. I am not sure when I will be free again.Wikignome72 (talk) 20:40, 5 November 2019 (EST)

More postings on Talk:Infant baptism moved here

The following post was submitted by RobSmith on Talk:Infant baptism 6 Nov. 2019. It has been moved here, along with RobSmith comment posted same date on User talk:Dataclarifier. Both are reproduced here verbatim.

The postings

RobSmith comment posted same date 6 Nov 2019 on User talk:Dataclarifier

Note spamming a page with multiple redundant links (such as here with 4 redundant links to Debate: Infant baptism, lowers you Google ranking. Google will penalize you for redundant links. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 11:08, 6 November 2019 (EST)
I said LINK, NOT POSTING. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 11:55, 6 November 2019 (EST)
Example: Infant baptism, Infant baptism, Infant baptism, Infant baptism on the same page LOWERS your Google ranking, and makes it harder for people to ever find the page. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 11:57, 6 November 2019 (EST)

The redundant post at Talk:Infant baptism 6 Nov.

More evidence those who are under grace are saved from wrath and judgement

*John 1:12 As many as received him gave he power to become sons of God

  • Luke 11:11 Who among you if your child asks for a fish would give him a snake?

Once we are adopted into God's family (Romans 8:15; this is the real meaning of "catholic" - those outside the covenants of Abraham) we are nolonger under God's wrath (Romans 5:9). We are saved by grace. This is the meaning of salvation by grace, we will not be repaid according to our works. Our works are as filthy rags.

Any other gospel that teaches that God's children, i.e. those adopted into his family, will be repaid according to their works, is no gospel at all. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 17:06, 5 November 2019 (EST)

What happens if you shoot someone on Fifth Avenue? Asking for an orange friend. JohnZ (talk) 17:20, 5 November 2019 (EST)
Well, if you're a child of God, I suppose the same thing would happen that happened to Moses who killed the Egyptian, David who who killed Uzziah, Jeffrey Dahmer who killed 17 gays, or O.J. Simpson who murdered his wife.
Funny, ever think about that? Why did God choose two murderers, David and Moses, to write substantial portions of the Bible (Pentateuch, Psalms, much of Kings and Chronicles, etc)? Why did God choose two murderers to teach us about himself?
I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, And bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent
And I thank him and praise him every minute of every hour of every day for doing it. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 17:43, 5 November 2019 (EST)
I'll spare you my full thoughts on Old Testament God's very stable genius. Seriously, though, are you arguing for:
  1. a kind of Calvinist "once saved, always saved", or
  2. do you actually believe it's possible to lose your golden ticket to Heaven through sufficiently wicked acts?
JohnZ (talk) 19:23, 5 November 2019 (EST)
Once saved, always saved. There was a time I was very skeptical of it, but Calvin convinced me. Anything else is a Gospel of Works, rendering the work of Christ to no effect and making God a liar. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 20:32, 5 November 2019 (EST)
I think King Solomon is one of the best examples, although he probably died miserably and guilt ridden. OTOH, the spirit of God was taken from King Saul, but that was before the spirit without measure was given. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 20:38, 5 November 2019 (EST)
Thanks for a straightforward answer. JohnZ (talk) 21:03, 5 November 2019 (EST)

This should be easy to resolve.

An easy way to resolve this matter is to have a pro-infant babtism section and an anti-infant baptism section.

Giving both perspectives is essentially what was done in the Petrine Primacy article to resolve the conflict.

Why isn't that being done in this article? It seems like such an easy way to resolve this matter.

It seems to me some diplomacy has to be shown by both sides.

I suggest reading these articles on conflict resolution skills and putting them into practice:

https://blog.hubspot.com/service/conflict-resolution-skills

https://www.eaglesflight.com/blog/top-5-skills-needed-to-successfully-resolve-conflicts-in-the-workplace

https://www.helpguide.org/articles/relationships-communication/conflict-resolution-skills.htm

I hope this helps. Wikignome72 (talk) 17:44, 5 November 2019 (EST)

Yes and no. The real problem is Salvation. Look at that article. It's a mess. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 17:48, 5 November 2019 (EST)
It can be resolved. The Petrine Primacy article was resolved. If Wikipedia can have its Protestants, Catholics, Orthodox, etc begin to create an informative article, there is no reason why Conservapedia can't do the same.
It is just a matter of whether the parties geniunely want to resolve the matter.Wikignome72 (talk) 18:48, 5 November 2019 (EST)
Well, looking at the Salvation article, the Intro right now is a big problem - and it's been that way for years evidently. It needs substantial revision. I'm not certain I'm the guy who should begin it (like Peter Strzok, because of my partisan bias). Any help you can give there to get it started would be appreciated. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 18:53, 5 November 2019 (EST)
I have zero time to work on any articles. I am not sure when I will be free again.Wikignome72 (talk) 20:40, 5 November 2019 (EST)

Reposting repeated at Talk:Infant baptism moved here verbatim

More evidence those who are under grace are saved from wrath and judgement
  • John 1:12 As many as received him gave he power to become sons of God
  • Luke 11:11 Who among you if your child asks for a fish would give him a snake?

Once we are adopted into God's family (Romans 8:15; this is the real meaning of "catholic" - those outside the covenants of Abraham) we are nolonger under God's wrath (Romans 5:9). We are saved by grace. This is the meaning of salvation by grace, we will not be repaid according to our works. Our works are as filthy rags.

Any other gospel that teaches that God's children, i.e. those adopted into his family, will be repaid according to their works, is no gospel at all. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 17:06, 5 November 2019 (EST)

What happens if you shoot someone on Fifth Avenue? Asking for an orange friend. JohnZ (talk) 17:20, 5 November 2019 (EST)
Well, if you're a child of God, I suppose the same thing would happen that happened to Moses who killed the Egyptian, David who who killed Uzziah, Jeffrey Dahmer who killed 17 gays, or O.J. Simpson who murdered his wife.
Funny, ever think about that? Why did God choose two murderers, David and Moses, to write substantial portions of the Bible (Pentateuch, Psalms, much of Kings and Chronicles, etc)? Why did God choose two murderers to teach us about himself?
I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, And bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent
And I thank him and praise him every minute of every hour of every day for doing it. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 17:43, 5 November 2019 (EST)
I'll spare you my full thoughts on Old Testament God's very stable genius. Seriously, though, are you arguing for:
  1. a kind of Calvinist "once saved, always saved", or
  2. do you actually believe it's possible to lose your golden ticket to Heaven through sufficiently wicked acts?
JohnZ (talk) 19:23, 5 November 2019 (EST)
Once saved, always saved. There was a time I was very skeptical of it, but Calvin convinced me. Anything else is a Gospel of Works, rendering the work of Christ to no effect and making God a liar. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 20:32, 5 November 2019 (EST)
I think King Solomon is one of the best examples, although he probably died miserably and guilt ridden. OTOH, the spirit of God was taken from King Saul, but that was before the spirit without measure was given. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 20:38, 5 November 2019 (EST)
Thanks for a straightforward answer. JohnZ (talk) 21:03, 5 November 2019 (EST)
This should be easy to resolve.

An easy way to resolve this matter is to have a pro-infant babtism section and an anti-infant baptism section.

Giving both perspectives is essentially what was done in the Petrine Primacy article to resolve the conflict.

Why isn't that being done in this article? It seems like such an easy way to resolve this matter.

It seems to me some diplomacy has to be shown by both sides.

I suggest reading these articles on conflict resolution skills and putting them into practice:

https://blog.hubspot.com/service/conflict-resolution-skills

https://www.eaglesflight.com/blog/top-5-skills-needed-to-successfully-resolve-conflicts-in-the-workplace

https://www.helpguide.org/articles/relationships-communication/conflict-resolution-skills.htm

I hope this helps. Wikignome72 (talk) 17:44, 5 November 2019 (EST)

Yes and no. The real problem is Salvation. Look at that article. It's a mess. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 17:48, 5 November 2019 (EST)
It can be resolved. The Petrine Primacy article was resolved. If Wikipedia can have its Protestants, Catholics, Orthodox, etc begin to create an informative article, there is no reason why Conservapedia can't do the same.
It is just a matter of whether the parties geniunely want to resolve the matter.Wikignome72 (talk) 18:48, 5 November 2019 (EST)
Well, looking at the Salvation article, the Intro right now is a big problem - and it's been that way for years evidently. It needs substantial revision. I'm not certain I'm the guy who should begin it (like Peter Strzok, because of my partisan bias). Any help you can give there to get it started would be appreciated. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 18:53, 5 November 2019 (EST)
I have zero time to work on any articles. I am not sure when I will be free again.Wikignome72 (talk) 20:40, 5 November 2019 (EST)
Moses, again

God told Noah, whoever sheds man's blood by man shall his blood be shed before the Mosaic Law. Moses killed the Egyptian, was saved by grace, had the mind of Christ, and saw God.

It's pretty clear those who are saved by grace and have the mind of Christ will not be repaid according to their works. The Law is for those who are not under grace. Any other gospel is no gospel at all. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 13:31, 6 November 2019 (EST)

Faith of child

El Shaddai, a name of God, is taken from Shad, Hebrew for a woman's breast. It's full meaning is something like The All Bountiful One or All Sufficient One, usually translated God Almighty.

While nobody really knows what's going on in an infant newborn's mind, I'm assuming the infant has faith that mommie is going to feed him/her/he/she/it. I'm not saying this is doctrinal, I'm just sayin' based on my own wisdom, learning, and understanding I've come to think this is probably the case. Psalm 82, incidentally, basically says parents stand in the place of God toward their children. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 21:18, 6 November 2019 (EST)

Now, for good measure, I'm going to throw in Hebrews 5:12:
For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.
So now, there is no difference between a PhD in Theology who uses the milk of the word and a helpless baby. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 21:34, 6 November 2019 (EST)
"parents stand in the place of God toward their children" Yes. They save their children by baptism. Just as Paul said Timothy saved those entrusted to him. And James said those who bring back someone from the error of their way save them. And the Church teaches the same, that the faith of the parents and of Mother Church stand in for the faith of the newborn child "while we were helpless" when the child is baptized. The Bible never says that infants were not baptized. Or that the children of believers were not baptized before they came to personal faith in Jesus Christ. Nevertheless, it is still Jesus Christ and his saving blood poured out in the washing of the water of baptism with the word "I baptize you in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit" for the salvation of all who are born again by water and the Spirit who baptizes ex opere operato in sacramental water baptism with the word "I baptize you in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit".
Your doctrine that salvation is only by faith alone, a saving faith in Christ, a faith that you say the newborn infant and baby does not have and cannot confess with their lips unto salvation, the absence of which ipso facto condemns them to eternal torment in the lake of fire because they do not believe with faith in confessing Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Savior because "he who does not believe will be condemned" (Mk 16:16), and condemns them to eternal torment simply because they are incapable of confessing Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Savior.
But while your doctrine of salvation by faith alone in the Lord condemns all babies who have no faith in the Lord when they die and all sinners who never heard the Gospel and do not believe and all grown persons mentally incompetent to understand anything and do not believe and therefore that God is willing that all such souls perish simply because they do not have faith in Jesus Christ, the biblical doctrine that unless one is born again by water and the Spirit one cannot enter the kingdom of God, and that baptism now saves us "while we were helpless" by the water-washing of regeneration and renewal by the Spirit and saves helpless babies and sinners who are incompetent to understand what salvation and faith and sin are, because God is not willing that any should perish. And that is why Jesus commanded to baptize "in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit" to "wash away your sins" and make "a new creature" who is able to come to faith in the Lord and "partake of the divine nature", and why whole households including children were baptized during the first centuries of Christianity. That biblical doctrine is also the doctrine of the Orthodox Church and the Catholic Church and all the Protestant churches that baptize infants for salvation. --Dataclarifier (talk) 00:07, 7 November 2019 (EST)
You just don't get it, do ya? You're just preaching wrath. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 00:12, 7 November 2019 (EST)
No. You preach wrath on all who do not (and cannot) confess with faith that Jesus Christ is their own personal Lord and Savior and be justified by faith alone, which excludes from salvation by faith alone all newborn babies who die and all who have no opportunity to believe and have faith in him simply because they are unable.
The Catholic Church preaches the biblical doctrine of mercy by water baptism of all who are helpless "in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit", including babies, and mercy to those who wished for water baptism but died before being baptized with water and the Spirit, and mercy to those who would have accepted Christian baptism if they had only known that Jesus said, "Except one be born again by water and the Spirit, one cannot enter the kingdom of God." Baptism ex opere operato now saves by the washing of water with the word of prayer. God is merciful to all who are helpless and are brought to him. You damn to the lake of fire all who die without being able to confess Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Savior. --Dataclarifier (talk) 00:32, 7 November 2019 (EST)
You're being a little redundant now. I don't think God or man is hearing you for your much speaking.
Secondly, please stop being so condemning of me. I'm just acting on my faith. (Clarification: when I use the phrase "my faith", I am referring to my personal belief in and trust of God and God's word. I am not referring to any membership or association with an organized church or organized church doctrine). RobSDe Plorabus Unum 00:44, 7 November 2019 (EST)
I condemn a defective and false faith, as did all of Protestantism, Orthodoxy and Catholicism in the 16th century, a faith that they all condemned as an antichrist doctrine contradicting the Bible itself, the credobaptist doctrine of salvation by faith alone to be believed and confessed before participating in the performance of a testimonial symbolic baptism which excludes from salvation all newborns, infants, babies and children in arms who die, simply because they do not believe and do not confess with their lips unto salvation that Jesus Christ died for them as their own personal Lord and Savior and teaches that when they die without believing and confessing this faith alone they are condemned to suffer eternal torment in the lake of fire and have no rest by day or by night. --Dataclarifier (talk) 01:50, 7 November 2019 (EST)
Why would "newborns, infants, babies and children in arms" suffer the second death? Presumably they didn't sin mortally, did they? VargasMilan (talk) Thursday, 09:22, 7 November 2019 (EST)
No one believes in God's word as long as they reject this plain and simple-to-understand list of clear biblical passages requiring salvation by water baptism and the Spirit. --Dataclarifier (talk) 02:13, 7 November 2019 (EST)
Show the list to any eight-year-old who has had no Bible training and no exposure to introductory theology and ask her and him what they see and what the words simply mean.
Unless one is regenerated by water and the Spirit, one cannot enter the kingdom of God. John 3:5
Baptism saves you now. 1 Peter 3:21
Go forth and make disciples of all nations, Baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. Matthew 28:19 . . .
. . . and so on all the way to the end of the list.
--Dataclarifier (talk) 02:22, 7 November 2019 (EST)


The thief on the cross who repented was not water baptised, yet Jesus said to him, "Today you will be with me in Paradise." At the same time, I do think people should get baptised AFTER they become a Christian.

Dataclarifier, I believe in the God's word. So you are entirely incorrect in your statement.Wikignome72 (talk) 02:25, 7 November 2019 (EST)

You don't believe in God's word, and I am correct in my statement. You don't believe the Bible. Not as long as you reject what the Bible says is required to enter the kingdom of God. The Thief on the Cross was saved by baptism of desire through the personal word of Jesus because he was unable to receive it but would have if he could have. We also have his word and are required to submit when we are able. If we reject his word we reject him and if we reject him we reject him who sent him. --Dataclarifier (talk) 02:36, 7 November 2019 (EST)
See the article "The Legacy left by Martin Luther, the first Protestant!", by Bob Stanley (thecatholictreasurechest.com) --Dataclarifier (talk) 03:03, 7 November 2019 (EST)
See, there you go with your wrath again. My bible says, "restore such a one" and "a soft word breaketh the bone." RobSDe Plorabus Unum 08:25, 7 November 2019 (EST)

The great legacy of the Protestant reformers: A response to Dataclarifiers' "The Legacy left by Martin Luther, the first Protestant!"

Protestantism vs. Catholicism and political corruption

Protestant missionaries and economic and societal development

Harvard University historian Niall Ferguson declared: "Through a mixture of hard work and thrift the Protestant societies of the North and West Atlantic achieved the most rapid economic growth in history."[1]

The article The Surprising Discovery About Those Colonialist, Proselytizing Missionaries published in Christianity Today notes:

In his fifth year of graduate school, Woodberry created a statistical model that could test the connection between missionary work and the health of nations. He and a few research assistants spent two years coding data and refining their methods. They hoped to compute the lasting effect of missionaries, on average, worldwide...

One morning, in a windowless, dusty computer lab lit by fluorescent bulbs, Woodberry ran the first big test. After he finished prepping the statistical program on his computer, he clicked "Enter" and then leaned forward to read the results.

"I was shocked," says Woodberry. "It was like an atomic bomb. The impact of missions on global democracy was huge. I kept adding variables to the model—factors that people had been studying and writing about for the past 40 years—and they all got wiped out. It was amazing. I knew, then, I was on to something really important."

Woodberry already had historical proof that missionaries had educated women and the poor, promoted widespread printing, led nationalist movements that empowered ordinary citizens, and fueled other key elements of democracy. Now the statistics were backing it up: Missionaries weren't just part of the picture. They were central to it...

Areas where Protestant missionaries had a significant presence in the past are on average more economically developed today, with comparatively better health, lower infant mortality, lower corruption, greater literacy, higher educational attainment (especially for women), and more robust membership in nongovernmental associations.

In short: Want a blossoming democracy today? The solution is simple—if you have a time machine: Send a 19th-century missionary."[2]

America's founders were greatly influenced by Protestantism and not Catholicism

America's founders were greatly influenced by Protestantism and not Catholicism. It wasn't until the 1960s that JFK arrived. Is America one of the greatest countries in history? Yes! USA! USA! USA!

Roman Catholic Church, Homosexuality and pederasty

Throughout the 1970s and 1980s, the American Roman Catholic bishops and the Vatican had noted a growing problem with clerical sexual abuse in the U.S.[3] In addition, Ireland and other European countries have experienced problems relating to instances of Roman Catholic priests sexually abusing children.[4]

Catholic League president Bill Donohue declared concerning the scandals of priests molesting minors:

The latest attempt to silence me comes from GLAAD (Gay & Lesbian Alliance Against Defamation), Call to Action and the Interfaith Alliance. The three left-wing organizations have joined hands demanding that the media "ignore Bill Donohue." Their complaint? My telling the truth about the role homosexual priests have played in the abuse scandal.

The data collected by John Jay College of Criminal Justice show that between 1950 and 2002, 81 percent of the victims were male and 75 percent of them were post-pubescent. In other words, three out of every four victims have been abused by homosexuals. By the way, puberty, according to the American Academy of Pediatrics, begins at age 10 for boys.

No problem can be remedied without an accurate diagnosis. And any accurate diagnosis that does not finger the role that homosexuals have played in molesting minors is intellectually dishonest. The cover-up must end. And so must attempts to muzzle my voice. Everything I am saying is what most people already know, but are afraid to say it. It's time for some straight talk.[5]

Bill Donahue published in the New York Times:

The Times continues to editorialize about the "pedophilia crisis", when all along it's been a homosexual crisis. Eighty percent of the victims of priestly sexual abuse are male and most of them are post-pubescent. While homosexuality does not cause predatory behavior, and most gay priests are not molesters, most of the molesters have been gay.[6]

The just shall live by faith: Here RobSmith, 1990sguy and Wikignome72 stand! We can do no other!

As the Apostle Paul himself said, "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast." - Ephesians 2:8-9.Wikignome72 (talk) 04:33, 7 November 2019 (EST)

Amen. Where two or more are gathered in my name, I am there also - that is the body of Christ, the "true church". And we recognize we are all flawed men, but our faith has made us whole. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 08:46, 7 November 2019 (EST)

References

  1. The Protestant Work Ethic: Alive & Well…In China By Hugh Whelchel on September 24, 2012
  2. Christianity Today, The Surprising Discovery About Those Colonialist, Proselytizing Missionaries, January 8, 2014
  3. https://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=26940
  4. http://www.daily49er.com/opinion/our-view-catholic-church-needs-administrative-reform-1.2200659
  5. ATTEMPTS TO CENSOR DONOHUE FAIL.April 1, 2010 by Bill
  6. https://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/03/31/bill-donohue-catholic-sex_n_520187.html

This is ridiculous

Dataclaifier's misuse and misquoting of scripture. He repeatedly cut's and pastes a verse of scripture, then says, "See, the bible says such and such and you are condemned to hell." Well, Mr. Dataclifier, the bible says,

Blessed is he who seizes your infants and dashes them against the rocks.[1]

So there, that's what the bible says about your helpless babies and infants. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 10:26, 7 November 2019 (EST)

"Here I stand, I can do no more" — Sola scriptura response from the whole context of the Bible

There you stand — Sola scriptura response from the whole context of the Bible — Bible scriptures opposed by all who reject Regenerative Baptism, Infant baptism, and the authority of the Catholic Church:

  • I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. Matthew 16:18-19
  • Obey your leaders and submit to them; for they are keeping watch over your souls, as men who will have to give account. Hebrews 13:17
  • Take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you guardians, to feed the church of the Lord which he obtained with his own blood. Acts 20:28
  • And his gifts were that some should be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers, for the equipment of the saints, for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ; so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the cunning of men, by their craftiness in deceitful wiles. Rather, speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in every way into him who is the head, into Christ, from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by every joint with which it is supplied, makes bodily growth and upbuilds itself in love. Ephesians 4:11-16
    (The scriptures are not mentioned, neither here nor in 1 Corinthians 12:27-38.)
  • For just as the body is one and has many members, and all the members of the body, though many, are one body, so it is with Christ. For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—Jews or Greeks, slaves or free—and all were made to drink of one Spirit. 1 Corinthians 12:12-13
  • Now you are the body of Christ and individually members of it. And God has appointed in the Church first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then workers of miracles, then healers, helpers, administrators, speakers in various kinds of tongues. 1 Corinthians 12:27-38
    (The scriptures are not mentioned, neither here nor in Ephesians 4:11-16.)
  • I commend you because you remember me in everything and maintain the traditions even as I have delivered them to you. 1 Corinthians 11:2
  • So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word or by letter. 2 Thessalonians 2:15
  • Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a workman who has no need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. 2 Timothy 2:15
  • And account the forbearance of our Lord as salvation. So also our beloved brother Paul wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, speaking of this as he does in all his letters. There are some things in them hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other scriptures. You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, beware lest you be carried away with the error of lawless men and lose your own stability. 2 Peter 3:15-17
  • You then, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus, and what you have heard from me before many witnesses entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also. 2 Timothy 2:1-2
    (often cited by many Churches as support for apostolic succession)
  • I am the true vine, and my Father is the vinedresser: Every branch of mine that bears no fruit, he takes away, and every branch that does bear fruit he prunes, that it may bear more fruit. You are already clean by the word which I have spoken to you. Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me. I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in me, and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing. If a man does not abide in me he is cast forth as a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire and burned. John 15:1-6
  • For he will render to every man according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are factious and do not obey the truth, but obey wickedness, there will be wrath and fury. There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, but glory and honor and peace for every one who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek. For God shows no partiality. Romans 2:6-11
  • You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. James 2:24
  • Once again, you have justification confused with salvation. The verse does not read, a man is saved by works and not faith alone as you repeatedly imply. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 10:02, 9 November 2019 (EST)
  • For it is impossible to restore again to repentance those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they then commit apostasy, since they crucify the Son of God on their own account and hold him up to contempt. Hebrews 6:4-6
  • He who is not with me is against me, and he who does not gather with me scatters. Therefore I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven. Matthew 12:30-31
  • If any one sees his brother committing what is not a mortal sin, he will ask, and God will give him life for those whose sin is not mortal. There is sin which is mortal; I do not say that one is to pray for that. All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin which is not mortal. 1 John 5:16-17
  • My brethren, if any one among you wanders from the truth and some one brings him back, let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins. James 5:19-20
  • I have yet many things to say to you, but you cannot hear them now. When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all truth; for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things to come. He will glorify me, for he will take what is mine and declare it to you. John 16:12-14
  • And I will pray the Father, and he will give you another Counselor, to be with you for ever, even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him; you know him, for he dwells with you, and will be in you. John 14:16-17
  • Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen. Matthew 28:19-20
  • Do you not know that you (plural) are God's temple and that God's Spirit dwells in you (plural)? If anyone destroys God's temple God will destroy him. For God's temple is holy, and that temple you (plural) are. 1 Corinthians 3:16-17
  • For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. Therefore he who resists the authority resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. Romans 13:1-2
  • Be subject for the Lord's sake to every human institution. 1 Peter 2:13
  • So then you are no longer strangers and sojourners, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, in whom the whole structure is joined together and grows into a holy temple in the Lord; in whom you also are built into it for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit. Ephesians 2:19-22
  • if I am delayed, you may know how one ought to behave in the household of God, which is the Church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth. 1 Timothy 3:15
  • Children it is the last hour, and as you have heard that Antichrist is coming, so now many Antichrists have come; therefore we know that it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out, that it might be plain that they all are not of us. 1 John 2:18-29
  • If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. But if he will not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every word may be confirmed by the evidence of two or three witnesses. If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the Church; and if he refuses to listen even to the Church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector. Truly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. Matthew 18:15-19
  • Any one who goes beyond and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God; he who abides in the doctrine has both the Father and the Son. If any one comes to you and does not bring this doctrine, do not receive him into the house or give him any greeting; for he who greets him shares his wicked work. 2 John 9-11
  • As for a man who is factious, after admonishing him once or twice, have nothing more to do with him, knowing that such a person is perverted and sinful; he is self-condemned. Titus 3:10-11
  • Yet in like manner these men in their dreamings defile the flesh, reject authority, and revile the glorious ones. Jude 8
  • These are grumblers, malcontents, following their own passions, loud-mouthed boasters, flattering people to gain advantage. Jude 16
  • Whoever rejects Jesus and does not receive his sayings has a judge; the word that Jesus has spoken will be his judge on the last day. John 12:4712:48
  • He who is of God hears the words of God; the reason why you do not hear them is that you are not of God. John 8:47
    Except a man be born again of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. Be baptized and wash away your sins. Baptism saves us now, by water and the blood.—this is the word of God.
  • I warned those who sinned before and all the others, and I warn them now while absent, as I did when present on my second visit, that if I come again I will not spare them 2 Corinthians 13:2
  • There is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. Therefore he who resists the authority resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. Romans 13:1-2
  • He who despises the word brings destruction on himself. When anyone turns away from hearing the word of God, even his prayer is an abomination. Proverbs 13:13 and 28:9

Bring forth the scriptures that say "baptism cannot save"

  • Bring forth the scripture that explicitly states "baptism does not save, baptism cannot save".
    Bring forth the scripture that explicitly states "the Church does not save, the Church cannot save", or that "membership in the Church does not save".
    Bring forth the scripture that explicitly states "membership in the Church eternally assures salvation" (which Catholic doctrine also rejects).
    Bring forth here on this page Chapter and verse, with words "church", "membership", "baptism" (cannot, does not) "save", "salvation".
    Show the Bible passage that explicitly says in any form "born again by faith."
    You can't. I know, because I looked, and tried to find it. "Baptism cannot save"—"The church cannot save"—"Born again by faith alone" (babies who die have no faith). It can't be found. It's not in the Bible. And if it's not in the Bible, the principle of sola scriptura refutes it totally.
    So if you believe in salvation by faith alone you don't believe the Bible. It's as simple as that. --Dataclarifier (talk) 13:23, 7 November 2019 (EST)
    By the way — The Catholic Church does teach that the Church saves. CCC 849 "The missionary mandate. “Having been divinely sent to the nations that she might be ‘the universal sacrament of salvation,’ the Church, in obedience to the command of her founder and because it is demanded by her own essential universality, strives to preach the Gospel to all men.” [AG 7; cf. Heb 11:6; 1 Cor 9:6] (AG is the Vatican II document Ad Gentes) --Dataclarifier (talk) 13:23, 7 November 2019 (EST)
You have clearly demonstrated repeatedly that you do not believe the Bible, because like the original Anabaptists you refuse to believe the whole context of all the scriptures cited here above and used by Protestants and Orthodox and Catholics against them to no avail. If you chop up this one as you did before and contradict even one of these Bible passages, you will prove your opposition to the Bible and enmity to the truth. "Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth" John 17:17.
You will not hear from me again. --Dataclarifier (talk) 13:23, 7 November 2019 (EST)
Dataclarifier, this is a very unreasonable request. I showed you Ephesians 2:8-9 which explicitly states that one is saved by faith and not by works (and I added that the Book of James says that true faith will have works).
Now in desperation you say: Bring forth the scriptures that say "baptism cannot save".
This is like saying bring forth the Scriptures that say singing songs at church cannot save. Bring forth the Scriptures that say a women having long hair cannot save. Show me the Scriptures that say praying consistently cannot save. This is not a reasonable approach to formulating sound doctrine. Formulating sound doctrine is best formed by using relevant verses that provide the most clarity and using proper Bible exegesis. Wikignome72 (talk) 14:13, 7 November 2019 (EST)
It's not enough for you to find Scriptural interpretations and push them downhill towards others for them to deal with. You have to roll those that miss the mark back uphill or at least to help others do the same. Not to ignore others' refutations and repeat rolling down the same interpretations or to suddenly disappear. That kind of spamming ends up not solving any problem. VargasMilan (talk) Friday, 00:36, 8 November 2019 (EST)
The Gospel of John, chapter 3, states "Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God".
One apostle thought that there were two kinds of baptisms: the baptism of repentence and the baptism of the Holy Spirit, and that the second supersedes the old. I agree, but think either type of baptism are public dedications and purifications.
I also think "born of water" is the baptism of repentence. If it's not being used because it's superseded, the intentions are included in the new baptism in the form of a renunciation of a person's past misdeeds ("of the flesh"). This assumes being "born of the Spirit" is accepting the mantle of the Holy Spirit ("of the Spirit").
Finally I think one is "born" of water or the Spirit when one either determines to repent or to become a disciple of Christ, respectively, and that either baptism is a public ceremony of commitment of the dedication and purification of the "birth" that had already begun. VargasMilan (talk) Friday, 02:43, 8 November 2019 (EST)
Infant baptism? If infants can be dedicated to being raised in a certain religious order, why shouldn't they be able to be dedicated to the Father, Son and Holy Spirit? VargasMilan (talk) Friday, 03:13, 8 November 2019 (EST)
He's asking to prove a negative. His entire gospel is, "You better do, or else...", "Unless ye be circumcised....", topped off with a little pride of birthright "We be born not of fornication, we be baptized with water at birth." This of coarse carries no grace or teaches no one of grace toward others, or shares the mercy of God. It is faithless, claiming the promises of God as a birthright without repentance or faith. Now, he's gonna throw words like "faith", repentance", or "grace" back into his doctrine, changing the immutable gospel of grace back into a gospel of works, reigning down the anathema of Paul (Galatians 1:6-9). A person can try to hide from this gospel of works and the anathema of God by saying, "Not me. It is church doctrine", but God holds each one of us to account individually. A murderer can't blame his parents. Your own words, or spirit, condemn you.
But there is a way out - the gospel of grace. Put away pride (the pride of your imaginary birthright), change (i.e. repentance, IOWs abandon your gospel of works), and join the workers in the field an hour before sunset. Your reward is the same as those who have been working since 7:00 A.M. Isn't that wonderful!
Remember, My ways are not your ways, and my thoughts are not your thoughts. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 09:49, 8 November 2019 (EST)
Once a person gets to the place where they are thankful that they will not be repaid according to their works - this is the meaning of true repentance and finding salvation. Babies, infants, children, and even kids into their teens for the most part don't have a dirty conscience for all the dirty deeds they've done unto others or faithlessness (pride) they have toward God. Speaking as one who grew up under this teaching I can say this - the doctrine of infant baptism is a manifestation of pride. It teaches that one is adopted into God's family as a matter of birthright and that there is no need for faith (faith cometh by hearing - there is no need to hear God's Word), and there is no need for repentance (except under Law, where trespasses then are divided into felony and misdemeanor classes, mortal and venereal sin, etc), and flushes the free gift of God down the toilet. It is pride - the original sin (Proverbs: these 7 things doth the Lord hate, and #1 on the list is pride). Pride says "I don't need you God, I'll win my own salvation by my own works." RobSDe Plorabus Unum 10:21, 8 November 2019 (EST)
But it's dedicated Christian parents who love (a love first infused in them by Christ) as well as hold up a stricter standard (raising the child as a disciple) through which God infuses motions toward justice to the character of their baptized infant before the child has free will—the means of fighting original sin from the beginning[, but which can only be achieved with God's help]. One added benefit of this is that they won't despair as much about whether they have a big enough capacity to fight actual sin later on in life. VargasMilan (talk) Friday, 11:08, 8 November 2019 (EST) VargasMilan (talk) Friday, 11:55, 8 November 2019 (EST) (clarification added in brackets)
Humbling yourself before God is the only way to seek repentance from original sin - pride - the sin of Lucifer rejecting God to worship and serve the creature (himself) which Adam likewise, by free will, decided to follow. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 11:33, 8 November 2019 (EST)
True catholics - those outside the covenants God made with Abraham - ought to understand the spirit of grace and adoption more than anyone. That is what the Catholic Epistles of Paul teaches. We have no claim by birthright to anything, and we should be thankful that God, by his grace, is willing to share what is his with us.
The problem with the Roman church's tradition is no different than the Jews who rejected Christ - pride in their traditions which caused them to reject the gospel of grace and cling to Law as a means to salvation. Wherefore, their carcasses fell in the wilderness. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 12:01, 8 November 2019 (EST)
Continuing...
He came unto his own, his own received him not... Jesus told his own they needed to repent and hear the Word of God. They told Jesus they didn't have to, because they were heirs of salvation (the promises made to Abraham) by birthright (we be Abraham's seed). Jesus told them you omit the finer points - judgment, mercy, and faith. Proud in their traditions, which brought the blessings of God and prosperity on their forebears, they didn't need faith in God or to hear his Word anymore. So, having prepared a great feast, God sent his servants out unto the highways and byways to pick up all the vagabond homeless stragglers (catholics) and come fill the places he prepared for them.
Meantime, those who thought they were entitled to God's salvation by some ritual ceremony preformed on them at birth (circumcision), rejected faith, as we've heard over and over again in the above preaching.
Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing the Word of God. By rejecting faith as necessary for salvation, we reject hearing the Word of God. Then to justify this doctrine, passages of the Word of God are cut and pasted to re-constitute a doctrine of Law, which of coarse always ends with some wrathful statement such as "ye shall be cast into the lake of fire."
God is love. God is spirit. Learning or experiencing these truths has nothing to do with water baptism, which is only symbolic. Salvation is not brought about by learning the teachings or traditions of the elders. It only comes by hearing the Word of God, which circumcision and infant baptism disposes of the need to hear. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 16:25, 8 November 2019 (EST)

What is the diffence between original sin and actual sin?

Romans 5:14-16:

Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam.
[H]e is a type of Him who was to come. But the free gift is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many. And the gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned; for on the one hand the judgment arose from one transgression resulting in condemnation, but on the other hand the free gift arose from many transgressions resulting in justification.
This is a key verse. Elsewhere Paul says the law cannot give life. IOWs, the Spirit of Christ was in Moses, i.e. the doctrine of salvation by grace, as outlined in Exodus chapter 33 and Hebrew chapter 4, for the gospel was preached unto us as well as unto them [Israel in the wilderness]. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 09:48, 9 November 2019 (EST)
Ancient world

St. Augustine (413-426 A.D.) The City of God, Book 14

Chap. 1. That the disobedience of the first man would have plunged all men into the endless misery of the second death, had not the grace of God rescued many

We have already stated in the preceding books that God, desiring not only that the human race might be able by their similarity of nature to associate with one another, but also that they might be bound together in harmony and peace by the ties of relationship, was pleased to derive all men from one individual, and created man with such a nature that the members of the race should not have died, had not the two first (of whom the one was created out of nothing, and the other out of him) merited this by their disobedience; for by them so great a sin was committed, that by it the human nature was altered for the worse, and was transmitted also to their posterity, liable to sin and subject to death. And the kingdom of death so reigned over men, that the deserved penalty of sin would have hurled all headlong even into the second death, of which there is no end, had not the undeserved grace of God saved some therefrom. And thus it has come to pass, that though there are very many and great nations all over the earth, whose rites and customs, speech, arms, and dress, are distinguished by marked differences, yet there are no more than two kinds of human society, which we may justly call two cities, according to the language of our Scriptures. The one consists of those who wish to live after the flesh, the other of those who wish to live after the spirit; and when they severally achieve what they wish, they live in peace, each after their kind.

Chap. 3. That the sin is caused not by the flesh, but by the soul, and that the corruption contracted from sin is not sin but sin’s punishment

But if any one says that the flesh is the cause of all vices and ill conduct, inasmuch as the soul lives wickedly only because it is moved by the flesh, it is certain he has not carefully considered the whole nature of man. For “the corruptible body, indeed, weigheth down the soul.”[1] Whence, too, the apostle, speaking of this corruptible body, of which he had shortly before said, “though our outward man perish,”[2] says, “We know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: if so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up in life.”[3] We are then burdened with this corruptible body; but knowing that the cause of this burdensomeness is not the nature and substance of the body, but its corruption, we do not desire to be deprived of the body, but to be clothed with its immortality. For then, also, there will be a body, but it shall no longer be a burden, being no longer corruptible. At present, then, “the corruptible body presseth down the soul, and the earthly tabernacle weigheth down the mind that museth upon many things,” nevertheless they are in error who suppose that all the evils of the soul proceed from the body.

Virgil, indeed, seems to express the sentiments of Plato in the beautiful lines, where he says:

A fiery strength inspires their lives,
An essence that from heaven derives,
Though clogged in part by limbs of clay
And the dull "vesture of decay";[4]

but though he goes on to mention the four most common mental emotions,—desire, fear, joy, sorrow,—with the intention of showing that the body is the origin of all sins and vices, saying:

Hence wild desires and grovelling fears,
And human laughter, human tears,
Immured in dungeon-seeming nights
They look abroad, yet see no light,[5]

yet we believe quite otherwise. For the corruption of the body, which weighs down the soul, is not the cause but the punishment of the first sin; and it was not the corruptible flesh that made the soul sinful, but the sinful soul that made the flesh corruptible. And though from this corruption of the flesh there arise certain incitements to vice, and indeed vicious desires, yet we must not attribute to the flesh all the vices of a wicked life, in case we thereby clear the devil of all these, for he has no flesh. For though we cannot call the devil a fornicator or drunkard, or ascribe to him any sensual indulgence (though he is the secret instigator and prompter of those who sin in these ways), yet he is exceedingly proud and envious. And this viciousness has so possessed him, that on account of it he is reserved in chains of darkness to everlasting punishment. Now these vices, which have dominion over the devil, the apostle attributes to the flesh, which certainly the devil has not. For he says “hatred, variance, emulations, strife, envying” are the works of the flesh; and of all these evils pride is the origin and head, and it rules in the devil though he has no flesh. For who shows more hatred to the saints? who is more at variance with them? who more envious, bitter, and jealous? And since he exhibits all these works, though he has no flesh, how are they works of the flesh, unless because they are the works of man, who is, as I said, spoken of under the name of flesh? For it is not by having flesh, which the devil has not, but by living according to himself,—that is, according to man,—that man became like the devil. For the devil too, wished to live according to himself when he did not abide in the truth; so that when he lied, this was not of God, but of himself, who is not only a liar, but the father of lies, he being the first who lied, and the originator of lying as of sin.


  1. Wisdom 9:15
  2. II Cor. 4:16.
  3. II Cor. 5:1-4
  4. Æneid. bk. 6, ll. 730-32
  5. Ibid., 733, 734
Medieval world

Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologica
Part I-II
Discussion 81

Article 1: The Apostle says (Rom. 5:12): "By one man sin entered into this world, and by sin death." Nor can this be understood as denoting imitation or suggestion, since it is written (Wis. 2:24): "By the envy of the devil, death came into this world." It follows therefore that through origin from the first man sin entered into the world.

I answer that, According to the Catholic Faith we are bound to hold that the first sin of the first man is transmitted to his descendants, by way of origin. For this reason children are taken to be baptized soon after their birth, to show that they have to be washed from some uncleanness. The contrary is part of the Pelagian heresy, as is clear from Augustine in many of his books.

In endeavoring to explain how the sin of our first parent could be transmitted by way of origin to his descendants, various writers have gone about it in various ways. For some, considering that the subject of sin is the rational soul, maintained that the rational soul is transmitted with the semen, so that thus an infected soul would seem to produce other infected souls. Others, rejecting this as erroneous, endeavored to show how the guilt of the parent's soul can be transmitted to the children, even though the soul be not transmitted, from the fact that defects of the body are transmitted from parent to child—thus a leper may beget a leper, or a gouty man may be the father of a gouty son, on account of some seminal corruption, although this corruption is not leprosy or gout. Now since the body is proportionate to the soul, and since the soul's defects redound into the body, and vice versa, in like manner, say they, a culpable defect of the soul is passed on to the child, through the transmission of the semen, albeit the semen itself is not the subject of the guilt.

But all these explanations are insufficient. Because, granted that some bodily defects are transmitted by way of origin from parent to child, and granted that even some defects of the soul are transmitted in consequence, on account of a defect in the bodily habit, as in the case of idiots begetting idiots; nevertheless the fact of having a defect by the way of origin seems to exclude the notion of guilt, which is essentially something voluntary. Wherefore granted that the rational soul were transmitted, from the very fact that the stain on the child's soul is not in its will, it would cease to be a guilty stain binding its subject to punishment; for, as the Philosopher says (Ethic. iii, 5), "no one reproaches a man born blind; one rather takes pity on him."

Therefore we must explain the matter otherwise by saying that all men born of Adam may be considered as one man, inasmuch as they have one common nature, which they receive from their first parents; even as in civil matters, all who are members of one community are reputed as one body, and the whole community as one man. Indeed Porphyry says (Praedic., De Specie) that "by sharing the same species, many men are one man." Accordingly the multitude of men born of Adam, are as so many members of one body. Now the action of one member of the body, of the hand for instance, is voluntary not by the will of that hand, but by the will of the soul, the first mover of the members. Wherefore a murder which the hand commits would not be imputed as a sin to the hand, considered by itself as apart from the body, but is imputed to it as something belonging to man and moved by man's first moving principle. In this way, then, the disorder which is in this man born of Adam, is voluntary, not by his will, but by the will of his first parent, who, by the movement of generation, moves all who originate from him, even as the soul's will moves all the members to their actions. Hence the sin which is thus transmitted by the first parent to his descendants is called "original," just as the sin which flows from the soul into the bodily members is called "actual." And just as the actual sin that is committed by a member of the body, is not the sin of that member, except inasmuch as that member is a part of the man, for which reason it is called a "human sin"; so original sin is not the sin of this person, except inasmuch as this person receives his nature from his first parent, for which reason it is called the "sin of nature," according to Eph. 2:3: We . . . were by nature children of wrath.

Discussion 82

Article 1: Actual sin is an inordinateness of an act: whereas original sin, being the sin of nature, is an inordinate disposition of nature, and has the character of fault through being transmitted from our first parent, as stated above (Q. 81, A. 1). Now this inordinate disposition of nature is a kind of habit, whereas the inordinate disposition of an act is not: and for this reason original sin can be a habit, whereas actual sin cannot.

Part III

Discussion 1

Article 4: Whether God became incarnate in order to take away actual sin, rather than to take away original sin?

It is written (Jn. 1:29): "Behold the Lamb of God, behold Him Who taketh away the sins [Vulg.: 'sin'] of the world."

I answer that, It is certain that Christ came into this world not only to take away that sin which is handed on originally to posterity, but also in order to take away all sins subsequently added to it; not that all are taken away (and this is from men's fault, inasmuch as they do not adhere to Christ, according to Jn. 3:19: "The light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than the light"), but because He offered what was sufficient for blotting out all sins. Hence it is written (Rom. 5:15-16): "But not as the offense, so also the gift . . . For judgment indeed was by one unto condemnation, but grace is of many offenses unto justification."

Moreover, the more grievous the sin, the more particularly did Christ come to blot it out. But "greater" is said in two ways: in one way "intensively," as a more intense whiteness is said to be greater, and in this way actual sin is greater than original sin; for it has more of the nature of voluntary, as has been shown (FS, Q[81], A[1]). In another way a thing is said to be greater "extensively," as whiteness on a greater superficies [surface] is said to be greater; and in this way original sin, whereby the whole human race is infected, is greater than any actual sin, which is proper to one person. And in this respect Christ came principally to take away original sin, inasmuch as "the good of the race is a more Divine thing than the good of an individual," as is said in the Ethic. i, 2.

Discussion 107: Justification of the ungodly means remission of sins: who can be baptized?

Whether for the justification of the ungodly is required a movement of the free-will?
Objection 1: It would seem that no movement of the free-will is required for the justification of the ungodly.
For we see that by the sacrament of Baptism, infants and sometimes adults are justified without a movement of their free-will: hence Augustine says (Confess. iv) that when one of his friends was taken with a fever, "he lay for a long time senseless and in a deadly sweat, and when he was despaired of, he was baptized without his knowing, and was regenerated"; which is effected by sanctifying grace. Now God does not confine His power to the sacraments. Hence He can justify a man without the sacraments, and without any movement of the free-will.
Reply to Objection 1: Infants are not capable of the movement of their free-will; hence it is by the mere infusion of their souls that God moves them to justice. Now this cannot be brought about without a sacrament; because as original sin, from which they are justified, does not come to them from their own will, but by carnal generation, so also is grace given them by Christ through spiritual regeneration. And the same reason holds good with madmen and idiots that have never had the use of their free-will. But in the case of one who has had the use of his free-will and afterwards has lost it either through sickness or sleep, he does not obtain justifying grace by the exterior rite of Baptism, or of any other sacrament, unless he intended to make use of this sacrament, and this can only be by the use of his free-will. And it was in this way that he of whom Augustine speaks was regenerated, because both previously and afterwards he assented to the Baptism.

VargasMilan (talk) Friday, 09:05, 8 November 2019 (EST)

Free will isn't so much of a matter of "Should I run this stop sign?" or "Should I buy a Snickers bar or Hershey's?" It is matter of choosing to serve God or serve self (worshiping and serving the creature more than Creator). It's a decision we make every morning when the foot first hits the floor.
What is the purpose of existence? That choice is made daily by free will, to serve God or to serve man (self, career, etc). The hand was created to serve God, yet Eve put forth her hand to serve the lust of the eyes (self). By this exercise of free will to worship and serve the creature more than the Creator, death (or separation) came upon all. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 10:43, 8 November 2019 (EST)
RobS please tell us what you mean by "seeking repentance from original sin", as it doesn't seem to "originate" in ourselves. VargasMilan (talk) Saturday, 19:04, 9 November 2019 (EST)
Recognizing our flawed nature and wanting to do something about. There are three paths one can take: (1) reject God, become an atheist, and think you can improve yourself or work out your own salvation (in this sense, salvation does not refer to the hereafter. Salvation begins the moment a person is spiritually born). Rejection of God is just Pride, or original sin coming to full fruition. (2) Hear the word of God but never do anything about it. These people a genuinely serious about wanting salvation from sin (in this life) but don't quite trust or believe God that he is serious about his promises. It's a lack of faith. Again, faith is not an intellectual doctrine that must be fully comprehended or a work to perform. It is the faith of child that is necessary. IOWs, adults might have some unlearning to do about the "wisdom of this world" to have faith in God and his promise of salvation (from sin, in this life. A gigantic Satanic lie is that salvation is just a promise of an afterlife). (3) Have the faith of child and accept God for who he is, and believe what God says about you and sin is true. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 19:40, 9 November 2019 (EST)
Thank you. As able I'll digest the rest your comments and try to make an intelligent contribution of my own of some sort. VargasMilan (talk) Saturday, 19:59, 9 November 2019 (EST)
(ec)Let me go back to point (2) cause it ties in directly with much teaching on infant baptism. The premise as articulated is that, water baptism sprinkled over your forehead at birth or any age guarantees you a place in the afterlife, provided you don't blow it. Leaving aside a discussion of eternal security for now, let's focus on that vague promise that still is dependent on you and not the finished work of Jesus on the cross. Salvation begins the moment one is adopted into God's family - salvation from sin. And this is attested to throughout the entire scripture - beginning with the laws about cleansing the leper. Citations are too numerous to reiterate here (begin with Lev 23 if your interested). But the leper, those cast outside the camp or city wall and picking rags out the city dump at Gehenna, needed to present themselves to the priest for readmission into the body or congregation. The priest stood between them and the rest of the camp, between life and death. If the priest approved all their ritual cleansing, they were saved from fires of Gehenna and re-entered the family God. Christ now is our High Priest and advocate who admits us into eternal life and fellowship with God.
Oh, and thanks for your posting from Civitas Dei. It's been many years and I enjoyed rereading those passages. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 20:03, 9 November 2019 (EST)

Additional relevant debate copied from Talk:Infant baptism

The issue is salvation. And what is required for salvation. The answer is metanoia - repentance - a change of heart and change of mind. A change of heart and mind in your attitude toward God, sin, and what God says about sin. Ritual cleansing cannot satisfy God.
Here's the Express drive-thru scriptural interpretation:
  • Satan defied God and when he said "I will exalt myself..."
  • Jesus provided the way for salvation when he said "Father, let this cup pass, nevertheless Thy will, not my will..."
  • In the proverb of the Prodigal son, which is a metaphor for all unsaved humanity, the prodigal son said, "I will return to house of my father...." (i.e. metanoia or repentance, a change of heart and mind toward his father) without any ritual cleansing on his part. When he arrived, he was clothed by his father. Only the blood of Jesus saves;.
And I should have included this part up front: remainder of Romans 10:9-10, "For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. In all three examples above the "I will" part came out of the mouth. Salvation is not dependent upon any action (or "work") by us. "It is finished", as Jesus said. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 17:20, 7 October 2019 (EDT)
Dataclarifier, Define El Shaddai, and refute that babies have no faith. Or that the faith of child is not necessary to be saved. Or that the faith of Abraham is not necessary for salvation.
Hint: When an infant opens its arms to recieve its mother's breast it is displaying faith. Faith is neither an intellectual exercise nor a 'work' to be performed. It is the simple trust of a child in a parent. RobSDe Plorabus Unum
"Simple trust of a child in a parent" is not the conscious awareness and repentance of sin and faith in Jesus Christ as personal Lord and Savior you teach as necessary for salvation (Romans 10:9-10). Your doctrine that salvation is only by faith alone, a saving faith in Christ, a faith that you say the newborn infant and baby does not have and cannot confess with their lips unto salvation, the absence of which ipso facto condemns them to eternal torment in the lake of fire because they do not believe with faith in confessing with their lips Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Savior because "he who does not believe will be condemned" (Mark 16:16), and condemns them to eternal torment simply because they are incapable of confessing Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Savior.
Your doctrine of salvation by faith alone in the Lord condemns to wrath all babies who have no faith in the Lord Jesus Christ when they die, and all sinners who never heard the Gospel and do not believe, and all grown persons mentally incompetent to understand anything and do not believe, and therefore teaches that God is willing that all such souls perish simply because they do not have faith in Jesus Christ. In contradiction of this doctrine, the biblical doctrine proclaims that unless one is born again by water and the Spirit one cannot enter the kingdom of God, and that baptism now saves us "while we were helpless" by the water-washing of regeneration and renewal by the Spirit and saves helpless babies and sinners who are incompetent to understand what salvation and faith and sin are, because God is not willing that any should perish. And that is why Jesus commanded to baptize "in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit" to "wash away your sins" and make "a new creature" who is able to come to faith in the Lord and "partake of the divine nature", and why whole households including children were baptized during the first centuries of Christianity. That biblical doctrine is also the doctrine of the Orthodox Church and the Catholic Church and all the Protestant churches that baptize infants for salvation.
No. You preach wrath on all who do not (and cannot) confess with faith that Jesus Christ is their own personal Lord and Savior and be justified by faith alone, which excludes from salvation by faith alone all newborn babies who die and all who have no opportunity to believe and have faith in him simply because they are unable.
The Catholic Church preaches the biblical doctrine of mercy by water baptism of all who are helpless "in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit", including babies, and mercy to those who wished for water baptism but died before being baptized with water and the Spirit, and mercy to those who would have accepted Christian baptism if they had only known that Jesus said, "Except one be born again by water and the Spirit, one cannot enter the kingdom of God." Baptism ex opere operato now saves by the washing of water with the word of prayer. God is merciful to all who are helpless and are brought to him. You damn to the lake of fire all who die without being able to confess with their lips faith in Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Savior.
You object that I condemn you for your faith. I condemn a defective and false faith, as did all of Protestantism, Orthodoxy and Catholicism in the 16th century, a faith that they all with one accord condemned as an antichrist doctrine contradicting the Bible itself, the credobaptist doctrine of salvation by faith alone to be believed and confessed before participating in the performance of a testimonial symbolic baptism which excludes from salvation all newborns, infants, babies and children in arms who die, simply because they do not believe and do not confess with their lips unto salvation that Jesus Christ died for them as their own personal Lord and Savior and teaches that when they die without believing and confessing this faith alone they are condemned to suffer eternal torment in the lake of fire and have no rest by day or by night.
No one believes in God's word as long as they reject the plain and simple-to-understand list of clear biblical passages requiring salvation by water baptism and the Spirit. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by [[User:{{{1}}}|{{{1}}}]] [[User talk:{{{1}}}|(talk)]]
You're just rambling on now and not making any sense. Abraham did not confess Jesus with his lips. Neither did Moses. Abraham and Moses must be hell, huh? RobSDe Plorabus Unum 05:46, 17 November 2019 (EST)
In your alternative universe, we are commanded to have the faith of Abraham - which landed him in hell anyways. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 06:33, 17 November 2019 (EST)
Your whole doctrine can be boiled down to this - The sacrifice of God's own Son is not enough to save you. Your blood is still upon your own head. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 06:49, 17 November 2019 (EST)
You misrepresent facts - I never said babies cannot or do not have faith. I said the exact opposite. A child at its mother's breast has faith and love toward its parent, that the parent will love and nurture it. It is this faith that saves the child, and it is that faith of a child that you must have to be adopted into God's family, i.e. "saved". That fact also refers to life in the flesh. Salvation is now, not contingent upon death. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 06:56, 17 November 2019 (EST)
By wisdom they knew not God - once again your ramblings prove the truth of God's word. Faith is all that's necessary, not your so-called "wisdom" in your endless ramblings. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 07:00, 17 November 2019 (EST)
These words I speak unto you - they are spirit, and they are life. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 07:11, 17 November 2019 (EST)
Your own words, near top of this section:
The issue is salvation. And what is required for salvation. The answer is metanoia - repentance - a change of heart and change of mind. A change of heart and mind in your attitude toward God, sin, and what God says about sin. ....
And I should have included this part up front: remainder of Romans 10:9-10, "For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. In all three examples above the "I will" part came out of the mouth.
Please explain to our readers how an infant is capable of this requirement of salvation "required for salvation" which you yourself have defined as necessary to be saved. According to the Bible, all who are not saved are damned to the eternal torment of the lake of fire. You require "metanoia" of a newborn infant who has died, to already have, before death (and after death the judgment), to have before death "a change of heart and change of mind in your attitude toward God, sin, and what God says about sin"—you said "The issue is salvation. And what is required for salvation. The answer is metanoia - repentance - a change of heart and change of mind. A change of heart and mind in your attitude toward God, sin, and what God says about sin." If this is required to be saved, if the "I will" part comes out of the mouth, please explain to our readers how an infant who does not know how to speak is capable of this requirement of "metanoia - repentance - a change of heart and change of mind. A change of heart and mind in your attitude toward God, sin, and what God says about sin.". You made no exception. Your "requirement" ipso facto mercilessly condemns them to hell, and afterward to the lake of fire, simply because they can't do what you insist is the absolute "requirement of salvation" from the wrath of God. --Dataclarifier (talk) 12:15, 17 November 2019 (EST)
Strong meat belongeth to those who are of full age. Unfortunately, you are neither feeding on, nor preaching, the milk of the gospel. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 13:19, 17 November 2019 (EST)
And now explain—according to the requirement of a metanoic change of heart and change of mind—how the milk of the gospel of salvation is given to newborns and infants who cannot understand speech or comprehend what is preached and tragically happen to die before they can. --Dataclarifier (talk) 17:13, 17 November 2019 (EST)
By faith. Psalm 82 says, Ye are gods. A parent stands in the place of God. A nursing infant has the faith of a child. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 17:51, 17 November 2019 (EST)
You said "The issue is salvation. And what is required for salvation. The answer is metanoia - repentance - a change of heart and change of mind. A change of heart and mind in your attitude toward God, sin, and what God says about sin." Ask a newborn what it thinks of God, sin, and what God says about sin. Please explain how an infant who does not know how to speak or understand what is good or bad is capable of this conscious choice of fulfilling what you say is the requirement of "metanoia - repentance - a change of heart and change of mind. A change of heart and mind in your attitude toward God, sin, and what God says about sin.". --Dataclarifier (talk) 18:06, 17 November 2019 (EST)
Let's look at several passages from John, mostly chapter 10:
  • these words I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life
  • My sheep hear My voice;
  • I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them in as well, and they will listen to My voice. (this refers to the gentile church as fully articulated in the Catholic Epistles of Paul).
  • No one can snatch them out of My hand. ("No one", presumably not even the sinner).
  • “Is it not written in your Law: ‘I have said you are gods’? If he called them gods to whom the word of God came—and the Scripture cannot be broken— (refer back to earlier discussion on John 1:27, No man hath seen God at anytime, and Exodus 33:11, The Lord spoke to Moses face to face)
  • then what about the One whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world? (also in John is the word became flesh).
This obviously is only a partial discussion. But to refute or dispute any of this, you have to compare spiritual with spiritual. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 18:24, 17 November 2019 (EST)
You said, "Salvation is by grace. You must have the mind of Christ, without which no man can see God (or see the Kingdom of God). It's pretty simple. It's not rocket science. God never intended it to be a scholarly exercise. It's gotta be simple enough for a child to understand."
No newborn infant is capable of this understanding if the infant dies shortly after birth.
You said, "You must have the mind of Christ, without which no man can see God (or see the Kingdom of God). . . . It's gotta be simple enough for a child to understand."
According to your own doctrine, in your own words, "You must have the mind of Christ, without which no man can see God (or see the Kingdom of God)"
A helpless newborn infant, baby, child in arms that cannot walk or understand the mind of Christ "without which no man can see God" (according to your own words) does not have cognitive ability to understand the gospel simple enough for a child to understand, does not "have the mind of Christ", cannot "confess with the lips" (Romans 10:9), and therefore cannot fulfill your requirement for salvation,
"what is required for salvation. The answer is metanoia - repentance - a change of heart and change of mind. A change of heart and mind in your attitude toward God, sin, and what God says about sin."
Your doctrine requires this to be saved.
A newborn baby and infant, a child in arms, is utterly incapable of being able to fulfill what you yourself say is "required for salvation. . .repentance - a change of heart and change of mind. A change of heart and mind in [the infant's] attitude toward God, sin, and what God says about sin." A newborn infant who dies shortly after birth is incapable of "changing its mind" of "changing its heart" or understanding anything intelligent before it dies. According to "what is required for salvation", that is, the requirement of your own doctrine, this newborn who died did not fulfill the "requirement for salvation...metanoia - repentance - a change of heart and change of mind. A change of heart and mind in your attitude toward God, sin, and what God says about sin."
Mainstream Protestant, Orthodox and Catholic doctrine instead, more mercifully based on the authority of the Bible itself according to the very Word of God ("baptism saves you now"), faithfully baptizes helpless infants "while we were yet helpless" for their salvation, because Jesus himself says, "Except one be regenerated by water and the Spirit, one cannot enter the kingdom of God", and "by the washing of water with the word" saves them "in virtue of his own mercy, by the water-washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit, which he poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that we may be justified by his grace and become heirs in hope of eternal life." John 3:5; Ephesians 5:25-27; Titus 3:5.(Baptism of desire and Baptism of blood are covered in the main article.)--Dataclarifier (talk) 20:28, 17 November 2019 (EST)
Then explain these two verses:
  • the faith of a child, and
  • Ye are gods
RobSDe Plorabus Unum 20:21, 17 November 2019 (EST)
Not necessary. A newborn infant is incapable of your requirement: A helpless newborn infant, baby, child in arms that cannot walk or understand the mind of Christ "without which no man can see God" (according to your own words) does not have cognitive ability to understand the gospel simple enough for a child to understand, does not "have the mind of Christ", cannot "confess with the lips" (Romans 10:9), and therefore cannot fulfill your requirement for salvation,
"what is required for salvation. The answer is metanoia - repentance - a change of heart and change of mind. A change of heart and mind in your attitude toward God, sin, and what God says about sin."
Your doctrine requires this to be saved.
A newborn baby and infant, a child in arms, is utterly incapable of being able to fulfill what you yourself say is "required for salvation. . .repentance - a change of heart and change of mind. A change of heart and mind in [the infant's] attitude toward God, sin, and what God says about sin." --Dataclarifier (talk) 20:28, 17 November 2019 (EST)
Like newborn infants, long for the pure spiritual milk, that by it you may grow up into salvation— 1 Peter 2:2
says nothing of water baptism What your doctrine is distinctly lacking is, a desire for pure spiritual milk. Your doctrine is grounded and focused on condemnation - the threat of hell (which of course, is no gospel at all). RobSDe Plorabus Unum 20:36, 17 November 2019 (EST)
(A) You can't tell me what salvation is.
(B) You can't tell me how to find salvation.
(C) All you preach is condemnation, wrath, and judgement - which is no gospel at all. And you base it on the doctrines of men. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 20:42, 17 November 2019 (EST)
Illustration: "A helpless newborn infant, baby, child in arms that cannot walk or understand the mind of Christ "without which no man can see God" does not have cognitive ability to understand." Revert back to the scripture, quoted twice now:
the world by wisdom knew not God.
The Bible specifically says you cannot know God by your cognitive abilities. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 20:56, 17 November 2019 (EST)
And if you think that sounds crazy, you are just exercising Pride - the original sin. God has chosen the foolish things of this world to confound the wise. Ye must become as little children. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 20:59, 17 November 2019 (EST)
Praise God! You're getting baptized in the Spirit now! Today, if you will hear his voice, harden not your hearts... RobSDe Plorabus Unum 21:06, 17 November 2019 (EST)

Cruel doctrine

A newborn infant cannot fulfill your requirement for salvation according to your own words,
"what is required for salvation. The answer is metanoia - repentance - a change of heart and change of mind. A change of heart and mind in your attitude toward God, sin, and what God says about sin."
A helpless newborn infant only a few hours or days old who understands and comprehends nothing yet is incapable of this!
Your requirement of metanoia with a change of mind and heart and a conscious understanding of all these things "so simple a child can understand" condemns to hell and the lake of fire every uncomprehending baby that cannot understand and has died within an hour of birth, simply because it had no personal conscious faith in Jesus Christ as personal Lord and Savior and did not understand and come to "metanoia - repentance - a change of heart and change of mind. A change of heart and mind in your attitude toward God, sin, and what God says about sin"—what you say (in your own words) "is required for salvation".
The Catholic Church condemns such a monstrous doctrine of cruelty, the legalistic requiring of a helpless newborn what the child is utterly incompetent to do and cannot fulfill, and by holding to a false doctrine condemned as "antichrist" deliberately depriving them of the salvation of their souls by the water-washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit when they are infants and most at risk of death.
Whenever possible, since the first century, the Christian Church east and west baptizes by regeneration through water baptism all infants brought to the "laver of regeneration" because they were conceived in the original sin of Adam, since in Adam all die, and death passed to all, since all have sinned, and there is none righteous, no not one. Infants are baptized by water and the Spirit without your requirement of conscious understanding and metanoia and a change of heart and mind in their attitude toward God, sin and what God says about sin. The Church freely baptizes the uncomprehending infant for salvation unto justification, freely, as an act of mercy commanded by the Lord himself (Matthew 28:19-20; Mark 16:16) precisely because newborn infants and babies have no capacity for what you have said is required for salvation, and simply because at this time in their lives they cannot personally resist or place any personal obstacle in the way of the grace of the sacrament "poured out upon" them.
In stark contrast to your requirement of metanoia, a change of mind and a change of heart in the newborn's attitude toward God, sin, and what God says about sin, in stark contrast to that requirement, all the Church really requires is the simple act of "the washing of water with the word", which ex opere operato in the very doing of the act ordained by Christ saves them "in virtue of his own mercy, by the water-washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit, which he poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that we may be justified by his grace and become heirs in hope of eternal life" because Jesus himself said, "Except one be regenerated by water and the Spirit, one cannot enter the kingdom of God". Ephesians 5:25-27; Titus 3:5; John 3:5.
--Dataclarifier (talk) 00:06, 18 November 2019 (EST)

They do in their heart alway err, and have not known my ways
My sheep hear my voice.
RobSDe Plorabus Unum 00:15, 18 November 2019 (EST)

Amen! If you won't hear the Bible, there is no hope for you. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by User:Dataclarifier (talk)

Again, condemnation. That's all you preach. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 01:22, 18 November 2019 (EST)

I've posted the word of God, below:

Authoritative scripture
Any preaching on salvation that ignores these verses is a good example of Cafeteria Christianity and ofconfirmation bias.
The Body of Christ, the Savior of the world
  • Jesus said to them again, "Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you." John 20:21
  • And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son as the Savior of the world. 1 John 4:14
  • I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. Matthew 16:18-19
  • Obey your leaders and submit to them; for they are keeping watch over your souls, as men who will have to give account. Hebrews 13:17
  • Take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you guardians, to feed the church of the Lord which he obtained with his own blood. Acts 20:28
  • And his gifts were that some should be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers, for the equipment of the saints, for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ; so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the cunning of men, by their craftiness in deceitful wiles. Rather, speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in every way into him who is the head, into Christ, from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by every joint with which it is supplied, makes bodily growth and upbuilds itself in love. Ephesians 4:11-16
    (The scriptures are not mentioned, neither here nor in 1 Corinthians 12:27-38.)
  • For just as the body is one and has many members, and all the members of the body, though many, are one body, so it is with Christ. For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—Jews or Greeks, slaves or free—and all were made to drink of one Spirit. 1 Corinthians 12:12-13
  • Now you are the body of Christ and individually members of it. And God has appointed in the Church first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then workers of miracles, then healers, helpers, administrators, speakers in various kinds of tongues. 1 Corinthians 12:27-38
    (The scriptures are not mentioned, neither here nor in Ephesians 4:11-16.)
  • I commend you because you remember me in everything and maintain the traditions even as I have delivered them to you. 1 Corinthians 11:2
  • So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word or by letter. 2 Thessalonians 2:15
  • Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a workman who has no need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. 2 Timothy 2:15
  • And account the forbearance of our Lord as salvation. So also our beloved brother Paul wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, speaking of this as he does in all his letters. There are some things in them hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other scriptures. You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, beware lest you be carried away with the error of lawless men and lose your own stability. 2 Peter 3:15-17
  • You then, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus, and what you have heard from me before many witnesses entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also. 2 Timothy 2:1-2
    (often cited by many Churches as support for apostolic succession)
  • I am the true vine, and my Father is the vinedresser: Every branch of mine that bears no fruit, he takes away, and every branch that does bear fruit he prunes, that it may bear more fruit. You are already clean by the word which I have spoken to you. Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me. I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in me, and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing. If a man does not abide in me he is cast forth as a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire and burned. John 15:1-6
  • For he will render to every man according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are factious and do not obey the truth, but obey wickedness, there will be wrath and fury. There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, but glory and honor and peace for every one who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek. For God shows no partiality. Romans 2:6-11
  • You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. James 2:24
  • For it is impossible to restore again to repentance those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they then commit apostasy, since they crucify the Son of God on their own account and hold him up to contempt. Hebrews 6:4-6
  • He who is not with me is against me, and he who does not gather with me scatters. Therefore I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven. Matthew 12:30-31
  • If any one sees his brother committing what is not a mortal sin, he will ask, and God will give him life for those whose sin is not mortal. There is sin which is mortal; I do not say that one is to pray for that. All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin which is not mortal. 1 John 5:16-17
  • My brethren, if any one among you wanders from the truth and some one brings him back, let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins. James 5:19-20
  • I have yet many things to say to you, but you cannot hear them now. When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all truth; for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things to come. He will glorify me, for he will take what is mine and declare it to you. John 16:12-14
  • And I will pray the Father, and he will give you another Counselor, to be with you for ever, even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him; you know him, for he dwells with you, and will be in you. John 14:16-17
  • Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen. Matthew 28:19-20
  • Do you not know that you (plural) are God's temple and that God's Spirit dwells in you (plural)? If anyone destroys God's temple God will destroy him. For God's temple is holy, and that temple you (plural) are. 1 Corinthians 3:16-17
  • For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. Therefore he who resists the authority resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. Romans 13:1-2
  • Be subject for the Lord's sake to every human institution. 1 Peter 2:13
  • So then you are no longer strangers and sojourners, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, in whom the whole structure is joined together and grows into a holy temple in the Lord; in whom you also are built into it for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit. Ephesians 2:19-22
  • know how one ought to behave in the household of God, which is the Church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth. 1 Timothy 3:15
  • Children it is the last hour, and as you have heard that Antichrist is coming, so now many Antichrists have come; therefore we know that it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out, that it might be plain that they all are not of us. 1 John 2:18-29
  • If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. But if he will not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every word may be confirmed by the evidence of two or three witnesses. If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the Church; and if he refuses to listen even to the Church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector. Truly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. Matthew 18:15-19

Authority

  • There is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. Therefore he who resists the authority resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. Romans 13:1-2
  • He who despises the word brings destruction on himself. When anyone turns away from hearing the word of God, even his prayer is an abomination. Proverbs 13:13 and 28:9
  • Any one who goes beyond and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God; he who abides in the doctrine has both the Father and the Son. If any one comes to you and does not bring this doctrine, do not receive him into the house or give him any greeting; for he who greets him shares his wicked work. 2 John 9-11
  • As for a man who is factious, after admonishing him once or twice, have nothing more to do with him, knowing that such a person is perverted and sinful; he is self-condemned. Titus 3:10-11
  • Yet in like manner these men in their dreamings defile the flesh, reject authority, and revile the glorious ones. Jude 8
  • These are grumblers, malcontents, following their own passions, loud-mouthed boasters, flattering people to gain advantage. Jude 16
Rejection of the Word of God
  • Whoever rejects Jesus and does not receive his sayings has a judge; the word that Jesus has spoken will be his judge on the last day. John 12:4712:48
  • He who is of God hears the words of God; the reason why you do not hear them is that you are not of God. John 8:47
    Except a man be born again of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. Be baptized and wash away your sins. Baptism saves us now, by water and the blood.—this is the word of God.
  • I warned those who sinned before and all the others, and I warn them now while absent, as I did when present on my second visit, that if I come again I will not spare them 2 Corinthians 13:2
  • He who despises the word brings destruction on himself. When anyone turns away from hearing the word of God, even his prayer is an abomination. Proverbs 13:13 and 28:9 and 28:9
    --Dataclarifier (talk) 00:45, 18 November 2019 (EST)
  • Take heed how you hear; the measure you give will be the measure you get, and still more will be given you. Mark 4:24
  • To him who has will more be given, and he will have abundance; but from him who has not, even what he has will be taken away. Matthew 13:12; Mark 4:25
    -- (talk) 18:29, 18 November 2019 (EST)Dataclarifier
Hearing, they hear not; seeing, they see not. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 01:22, 18 November 2019 (EST)
more comments from Talk:Infant baptism
Dataclarifer: Answer the question I asked way long ago, which you seemed to answer affirmatively yet hedged a little bit later: Was the gospel preached to Israel in the wilderness? Your answer determines whether or not you reject the Word of God; if you say "No", all the crap you posted about rejecting the Word of God will come upon you (per your own words). If you say "yes," we can move forward with this discussion. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 01:44, 18 November 2019 (EST)
For you, my friend, salvation is a real nail-biter - cause you don't know whether or not you are saved. You have to wait til you die (after you jump thru a bunch of hoops in the flesh) and face judgement. Evidently you haven't read who faces judgement, nor accepted the simple truth who is saved from judgement. Again, by admitting you face judgement, you condemn yourself.
There is therefore no condemnation to them that are in Christ
Moving on. Why would somebody reject (or "neglect") so great a salvation? Perhaps to justify sin? RobSDe Plorabus Unum 02:06, 18 November 2019 (EST)
You said—
For you, my friend, salvation is a real nail-biter - cause you don't know whether or not you are saved. You have to wait til you die (after you jump thru a bunch of hoops in the flesh) and face judgement. Evidently you haven't read who faces judgement, nor accepted the simple truth who is saved from judgement. Again, by admitting you face judgement, you condemn yourself.
There is therefore no condemnation to them that are in Christ
.
You cited the first part of Paul's Christian doctrine in Romans 8:1, but carefully omitted to include the second part of the verse, which is conditional: "who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit", the same Holy Spirit that is the divine Author of the Bible without any exception, for "ALL scripture is inspired by God and is profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction..., the same Holy Spirit who through Peter says, "Baptism now saves you". As he says elsewhere: "inflicting vengeance upon those who do not know God and upon those who do not obey the Gospel of our Lord Jesus", the same Jesus who said, "Except a man be born again by water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God", who said, "Why do you call me Lord, Lord, and not do what I say?"
Perhaps the Word of the Lord Himself will persuade you, as it finally persuaded me, that the Baptist doctrine of eternal assurance is a dangerously presumptuous error (especially when I also found out that it was founded by those who disobeyed those who were over them in the Lord Heb. 13:17, and went out from the church they had belonged to 1 John 2:18-19, and taught a doctrine different from the one they had originally received Gal. 1:6-9):
1 Corinthians 10:12 "Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall."
2 Peter 3:17 "beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness."
Ezekiel 18:24 "But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die."
Romans 11:19-22 "Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in. Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off." (boldface emphasis added)
Hebrews 6:4-8, 11-12 "For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God: But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned. ... And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end: That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises."
1 Peter 2:15-16 " For so is the will of God, that with well doing ye may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men: As free, and not using your liberty for a cloke of maliciousness, but as the servants of God."
2 Peter 2:18-22 "For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error. While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage. For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire."
Jude 3-4, 8, 12-13, 16-19 "Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints. For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ. ... Likewise also these filthy dreamers defile the flesh, despise authority, and speak evil of dignities. ... These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots; Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever. ... These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaketh great swelling words, having men's persons in admiration because of advantage. But, beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ; How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts. These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit."
Jude 8 and 16-19 was seen as especially applicable to Martin Luther because of his polemic against the hierarchy of the Catholic Church, his rejection of their authority, and his doctrine of Christian freedom and unconditional salvation; see his pamphlet On the Babylonian Captivity of the Church and the Catholic document of Pope Leo X, the papal bull Exsurge Domini Condemning the Errors of Martin Luther.
1 Thessalonians 4:3-8 "For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication: That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour; Not in the lust of concupiscence, even as the Gentiles which know not God: That no man go beyond and defraud his brother in any matter: because that the Lord is the avenger of all such, as we also have forewarned you and testified. For God hath not called us unto uncleanness, but unto holiness. He therefore that despiseth, despiseth not man, but God, who hath also given unto us his holy Spirit."
Matthew 7:21-23; 25:14-46 "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." ... "For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods. And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one; to every man according to his several ability; and straightway took his journey. Then he that had received the five talents went and traded with the same, and made them other five talents. And likewise he that had received two, he also gained other two. But he that had received one went and digged in the earth, and hid his lord's money. After a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and reckoneth with them. And so he that had received five talents came and brought other five talents, saying, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me five talents: behold, I have gained beside them five talents more. His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord. He also that had received two talents came and said, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me two talents: behold, I have gained two other talents beside them. His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord. Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed: And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine. His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed: Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury. Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents. For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath. And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal." (He does not ask them what they believed; he does not ask them if they abstained from alcoholic drinks, read the Bible, prayed, and went to church.)
James 2:14-26 and 1 John 3:17-18 "What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way? For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also." ... "But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him? My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth."
Compare Romans 8:1 with 1 John 3:4-10.
"There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." (Yet those Christians who were saved by faith, but afterward act unrighteously by freely practicing sin are condemned.)
"Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin. Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother." (boldface emphasis added)
See Luke 13:6-9; 19:12-26.
"He spake also this parable; A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard; and he came and sought fruit thereon, and found none. Then said he unto the dresser of his vineyard, Behold, these three years I come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and find none: cut it down; why cumbereth it the ground? And he answering said unto him, Lord, let it alone this year also, till I shall dig about it, and dung it: And if it bear fruit, well: and if not, then after that thou shalt cut it down." ... "He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return. And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them, Occupy till I come. But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying, We will not have this man to reign over us. And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom, then he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading. Then came the first, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained ten pounds. And he said unto him, Well, thou good servant: because thou hast been faithful in a very little, have thou authority over ten cities. And the second came, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained five pounds. And he said likewise to him, Be thou also over five cities. And another came, saying, Lord, behold, here is thy pound, which I have kept laid up in a napkin: For I feared thee, because thou art an austere man: thou takest up that thou layedst not down, and reapest that thou didst not sow. And he saith unto him, Out of thine own mouth will I judge thee, thou wicked servant. Thou knewest that I was an austere man, taking up that I laid not down, and reaping that I did not sow: Wherefore then gavest not thou my money into the bank, that at my coming I might have required mine own with usury? And he said unto them that stood by, Take from him the pound, and give it to him that hath ten pounds. (And they said unto him, Lord, he hath ten pounds.) For I say unto you, That unto every one which hath shall be given; and from him that hath not, even that he hath shall be taken away from him."
This is the contrasting doctrine of "conditional security" which is dependent on "good works" as necessary to retain the free gift of unmerited salvation. Romans 2:3-13.
" To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good" Romans 2:7-10 KJV (boldface emphasis added).
There are Evangelical Protestant Christian online sites which present the following Biblical texts as opposing unconditional eternal security.
Two of these Protestant online sites list more references than are presented here:
Matthew 6:15; 10:22-32; 19:21-35
Luke 12:41-46
John 15:4-6, 10
1 Corinthians 6:9-11; 15:1-2
Galatians 4:9; 5:1-5, 19-20; 6:8-9
Ephesians 5:5-6
Colossians 1:21-23
1 Thessalonians 5:21-22
Hebrews 3:6, 14; 10:26-29
James 5:19-20
2 Peter 2:20-22; 3:17
1 John 2:1-29
2 John 8
Revelation 2:4-7, 10, 25-36; 3:1-5
This is the contrasting doctrine of "conditional salvation" which depends on personal perseverance in heroically living a virtuous life pleasing to God, actively avoiding even the appearance of evil and striving to remain faithful to the Christian calling even unto death, so as not to lose salvation and forfeit the unmerited free gift of eternal life—the argument that if salvation cannot be lost, there would be no warnings in the New Testament to Christians to remain faithful, to avoid sin and error, and to persevere to the end lest they be found wanting and be condemned with the unrighteous. St. Paul himself said,
"Not that I had already attained this or am already perfect; but I press on to make it my own, because Christ Jesus has made me his own. Brethren, I do not consider that I have made it my own; but one thing I do, forgetting what lies behind and straining forward to what lies ahead, I press on toward the mark for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus. Let those of us who are "perfect" be thus minded; and if in anything you are otherwise minded, God will reveal that also to you. Only let us hold true to what we have attained." Philippians 3:12-16.
(See multiple commentaries on Philippians 3:13.)
"Do you not know that in a race all the runners contend, but only one receives the prize? So run that you may obtain it. Every man striving for mastery exercises self-control in all things. They do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable crown. Therefore, I do not run aimlessly, I do not box as one beating the air; but I control my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified." 1&nsbp;Corinthians 9:24-27.
(See multiple commentaries on 1 Corinthians 9:27.)
--Dataclarifier (talk) 00:05, 19 November 2019 (EST)

The issue of "issues"

Perhaps we need to do a section on the issue of "issues"

  • Moses tapped the rock and water issued forth.
  • Moses' name literally means drawn out or (more accurately analogous or synonymous with) issue (a coming forth)
  • The woman with the issue of blood
  • These words that I speak unto you (the issue of my mouth), they are spirit and they are life.

I'm only opening the can here, but the issue of water through out scripture (for example, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water) runs throughout scripture. A study of this issue will prove Dataclarifier's use of "water" is always, entirely fleshly and natural, and not based upon any spiritual truth. The natural man (and mind) cannot understand the things of God. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 10:29, 18 November 2019 (EST)

an issue is a flowing. Just as water flowed forth to sustains natural life in the flesh, the Spirit flows forth to give life. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 12:35, 18 November 2019 (EST)
Leviticus 17:11 - the life of the flesh is in the blood
Psalm 4:23 - Keep thy heart with all diligence; for out of it are the issues of life.
Note: no mention of water. It is the Spirit that gives life. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 13:50, 18 November 2019 (EST)
John 3:5 "Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." 1 Peter 3:21 "Baptism doth save you now". Titus 3:5-7 "He saved us, not because of deeds done by us in righteousness, but in virtue of his own mercy, by the λουτρού water-washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit which he poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that we might be justified by his grace and become heirs in hope of eternal life."
--Dataclarifier (talk) 00:37, 19 November 2019 (EST)
You said, "For you, my friend, salvation is a real nail-biter - cause you don't know whether or not you are saved."
True. Even St. Paul did not know with certainty: Philippians 3:10-16 (Compare John 15:4-6.)
"Therefore let any one who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall. 1 Corinthians 10:12.
--Dataclarifier (talk) 19:22, 18 November 2019 (EST)
  • You said on Talk:Infant baptism#A personal testimony "The book of Hebrews is my favorite book - it just sings to me, as does Isaiah. I love reading Hebrews in one sitting, and would recommend it to anybody."
    This claim needs examination. --Dataclarifier (talk) 04:58, 19 November 2019 (EST)
Hebrews "Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled έρραντισμένοι from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed λελουμένοι with pure water." Hebrews 10:22 (Greek Orthodox text, Byzantine Majority text, Textus Receptus)
variant textual reading ῥεραντισμένοι rherantismenoi having been sprinkled clean (Nestle, Westcott and Hort, Tischendorf texts)
variant textual reading λελουσμένοι lelousmenoi having been washed, having bathed entirely the whole person
Apparently you didn't see this when you read Hebrews again and again.
The Greek word έρραντισμένοι errantismenoi "aspersions" (with water) is from ρατισμός rhantismos aspersion.
The Greek word λελουμένοι leleoumenoi "(many we) washed" is from λούω lŏuō wash, cleanse.
See the interlinear text of Hebrews 10:22 (Nestle, Westcott and Hort, Tischendorf).
See multiple commentaries on Hebrews 10:22. —"the terms body and water after hearts and blood certainly suggest a direct reference to baptism. And such definite allusion is in keeping with references elsewhere to the beginning of the Christian life (see Acts 2:38; Acts 22:16; Romans 6:3, 4; 1 Corinthians 12:13; Galatians 3:27; Colossians 2:12; 1 Peter 3:21)"
Compare multiple translations of Hebrews 10:22.
--Dataclarifier (talk) 04:29, 19 November 2019 (EST)
You do not fear. All of the following scriptures were addressed by Paul to believers in the churches, not to unbelievers:
"Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God." 2 Corinthians 7:1
"Submitting yourselves to one another in the fear of God." Ephesians 5:21
"Servants, be obedient to them that are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in singleness of your heart, as unto Christ; Not with eye-service, as men-pleasers; but as the servants of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart; With good will doing service, as to the Lord, and not to men: Knowing that whatsoever good thing any man doeth, the same shall he receive of the Lord, whether he be bond or free." Ephesians 6:5-8
"Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling." Philippians 2:12
"Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear." 1 Timothy
"Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it." Hebrews 4:1
"Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear: For our God is a consuming fire." Hebrews 12:28-29
"And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear" 1 Peter 1:17
"Fear God" 1 Peter 2:17
"While they behold your chaste conversation coupled with fear." 1 Peter 3:15
"And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants and the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth." Revelation 11:18
"Fear God, and give glory to him" Revelation 14:7
"Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest." Revelation 15:4
"And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great." Revelation 19:5 (the wicked do not praise God, only those that fear him, his servants)
"There is no fear of God before their eyes"—"They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. Their throat is an open sepulcher; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips: Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness: Their feet are swift to shed blood: Destruction and misery are in their ways: And the way of peace have they not known: There is no fear of God before their eyes. Romans 3:18, 3:12-18
Paul did not write this last passage about believing Christians who truly fear God, but only about the wicked and unbelieving: There is no fear of God before their eyes. You have ridiculed the fear of Christians, who love God and fear to offend him and reverently and fearfully trust in his mercy, as I and St. Paul and all those who obeyed him in the fear of the Lord.
You have no fear of God. There is no fear of God before your eyes. That is the attitude of the wicked who boast against God that they have no need to fear his judgment. This is evident in your consistently blatant defiant rejection and twisting of the words of Scripture against the plain words of Scripture as being against the word of Jesus Christ himself about water "Except a man be born again of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God." "Baptism saves you now." "If he refuses to hear the Church, let him be unto you as a publican and a pagan" (unclean).
"Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my recompense, to repay every one for what he has done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end. Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and that they may enter the city by the gates."
You have consistently proven here and elsewhere on Conservapedia that you are not the one to help anyone understand scripture (Cafeteria Christianity, Confirmation bias). You have demonstrated that you are no biblical scholar. You have no competent knowledge of the Greek New Testament and its vocabulary and syntax and semantic import in context both immediate and within the whole. You have been badly misled (Mark 12:24) by Specious reasoning which cancels the word of God 2 Peter 3:15-18. You disobeyed those who were over you in the Lord Hebrews 13:17. You "went out from us" 1 John 2:18-19. And you teach a different gospel from the one you had received Galatians 1:6-9. There is no fear of God before your eyes, because of the false, condemned doctrine of Eternal security and salvation by "faith alone", a sin of presumption which the Bible itself condemns James 2:12-26 (and in all of the scriptures cited above about fearing God).
"Ask, and it will be given you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you." If you really desire to do the will of God, you will return to the truth of the Gospel of the Lord. James 5:19-20.
--Dataclarifier (talk) 03:26, 19 November 2019 (EST)

Making disciples: Matthew 28:19-20 - Baptism, then doctrine of faith

Jesus makes quite clear that disciples are made by the procedure that he himself ordained:
(1) baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit
(2) teaching them to observe all that he commanded his apostles. He explicitly stated, "Except one is regenerated of water and the Spirit, one cannot enter the kingdom of God."
This is fully in keeping with references elsewhere to the beginning of the Christian life (see Acts 2:38; Acts 22:16; Romans 6:3, 4; 1 Corinthians 12:13; Galatians 3:27; Colossians 2:12; 1 Peter 3:21).
Whole households were first baptized, and then devoted themselves to the apostles' teaching and fellowship, to the eucharistic breaking of the bread, and to the prayers. Sixteen centuries of Christian doctrine established the apostolic tradition, grounded in the Bible and the preaching of the Gospel, of baptizing all who were to be made disciples, including all newborn infants of baptized and believing Christian parents, teaching them the saving necessity of producing by their professed faith in which they are raised the fruits of good works and living lives of moral purity, the purpose for which God created them in Christ, and that without producing the fruits of good works of mercy for those in need they would be condemned to the outer darkness. (Mark 16:15-16)
Then the Anabaptists and Baptists rejected this by preaching salvation by faith alone (which the Bible condemns), and in response to this doctrine they were condemned as heretics by the whole Christian world, Protestant, Orthodox, Catholic,

  • for their unbiblical and non-Christian man-made doctrine of refusal to obey the command of the Lord (Luke 6:46; John 14:23-24) by their refusal to make infants disciples of the kingdom of God through (1) the saving regeneration of their souls by baptism, and then after baptism (2) raising them up in the teaching of the apostles and the breaking of bread and the prayers,
  • condemned them for their denial of the unmerited grace of the saving power of God in the sacraments of baptism and eucharist by their heretical teaching that these are legal ordinances of symbolic ceremony only,
  • and for their condemnation of the apostolic Christian doctrine of regenerative baptism,
  • because they made salvation dependent solely on the human work of listening, comprehending, understanding and then publicly confessing faith in Christ as their personal Lord and Savior in order to be saved, an act no infant is capable of performing, thus deliberately withholding from them rebirth to new life which would make them each "a new creature".

The choice is clear: either to believe what the Bible clearly says about water baptism "which now saves you", or to reject what it says in order to hold to the sixteenth century four hundred year old man-made tradition of salvation by faith alone which the Bible condemns.

--Dataclarifier (talk) 16:18, 19 November 2019 (EST)

You can't make a disciple until you saved. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 10:41, 22 November 2019 (EST) -- In Jesus' words, your subheading here would make readers a twofold follower of hell (Matt 23:15). RobSDe Plorabus Unum 18:59, 23 November 2019 (EST)
The bottom line is, you do not preach Christ saves, you preach water baptism saves. You preach doctrines of men and a gospel of works - which is no gospel at all. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 11:34, 22 November 2019 (EST)
You are essentially a Pharisee who preaches, Ye must be circumcised. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 11:36, 22 November 2019 (EST)

Matthew 23:36 - You blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and the plate, that the outside also may be clean.

Again, the Word of Jesus shoots your entire errant doctrine to smithereens. The word is quick and powerful. RobSDe Plorabus Unum 19:04, 23 November 2019 (EST)

Baptism cleanses from sin and saves us now. Ephesians 5:26-27; Acts 22:16; 1 Peter 3:21; John 3:3-5. And after Baptism, if we sin, we can confess our sins and be cleansed from all unrighteousness. 1 John 1:9; James 5:16. The Word of God. --Dataclarifier (talk) 13:44, 24 November 2019 (EST)