Debate: Is there a Purgatory before Judgment Day

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This debate page is to explore the questions (1) is there a Purgatory? (2) what does the Bible mean when it speaks of those who are saved through fire? (3) what does the Bible mean when it speaks of a spiritual prison, from which souls were delivered, and out of which they do not go till they pay the last farthing? [1]

Since the Bible says, "Follow peace with all men, and holiness: without which no man shall see God." (Heb 12:14) and "There shall not enter into it any thing defiled, or that worketh abomination or maketh a lie, but they that are written in the book of life of the Lamb." (Rev 21:27), we know that (1) we are to pursue and peace and especially holiness, or sanctity, without striving for which no one will see the Lord and (2) that anything defiled, however little, cannot enter the Kingdom of God without being purified first. In light of 1 Cor 3:15, Catholics believe that those who neglected Baptism and Confession in this life, good works and penance, who did not suffer well for love of God, will need to go through Purgatory.

Contents

Yes. There is a purgatory

User:NishantXavier

The First Proof: Direct Proof from 1 Corinthians 3:13-15

1 Corinthians 3 is perhaps the most direct proof in Sacred Scripture of purgatorial fire and merits. According to Catholic doctrine, bad works are penalized by God: bad Christians, whose works are burned up, will therefore suffer loss and be saved only through fire. This is Purgatory and their bad works or sins are why Purgatory is necessary. This doctrine is plainly taught by St. Paul the Apostle.

1 Cor 3:[13] Every man's work shall be manifest; for the day of the Lord shall declare it, because it shall be revealed in fire; and the fire shall try every man's work, of what sort it is. [14] If any man's work abide, which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. [15] If any man's work burn, he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire.

What could possibly be clearer? The bad Christian is saved only through fire because of his bad works. The good Christian receives a reward from the Lord on that Day because of his good works. This text clearly shows that good works done with faith in Christ are necessary post-justification and contribute to the soul’s sanctification. If performed, they entitle us by God’s Grace to a heavenly reward, because God is so Good. But if neglected, they demand punishment, because God is Holy.

St. Basil the Great teaches: “I think that the noble athletes of God, who have wrestled all their lives with the invisible enemies, after they have escaped all of their persecutions and have come to the end of life, are examined by the prince of this world; and if they are found to have any wounds from their wrestling, any stains or effects of sin, they are detained. If, however they are found unwounded and without stain, they are, as unconquered, brought by Christ into their rest.” [2]

The Second Proof: The Prison of Spirits St. Peter speaks of:

St. Peter the Apostle twice proves Purgatory when he speaks of a mysterious Prison of Spirits, in which the Gospel was preached, and from which souls can be delivered. Now, this cannot refer to Heaven, for Heaven is not a Prison. But neither on the other hand can it refer to Hell, for there is no deliverance from Hell. It necessarily follows therefore that this constitutes proof of some third intermediate state between Heaven and Hell, which Holy Mother Church aptly calls as Purgatory.

1 Pet 3:[18] “Because Christ also died once for our sins, the just for the unjust: that he might offer us to God, being put to death indeed in the flesh, but enlivened in the spirit, [19] In which also coming he preached to those spirits that were in prison:” and “1 Pet 4:[6] For, for this cause was the gospel preached also to the dead: that they might be judged indeed according to men, in the flesh; but may live according to God, in the Spirit.

Bp. Challoner justly comments on 1 Pet 3:19, “See here a proof of a third place, or middle state of souls: for these spirits in prison, to whom Christ went to preach, after his death, were not in heaven; nor yet in the hell of the damned: because heaven is no prison: and Christ did not go to preach to the damned.”

The Third Proof: The Lord Jesus mentions the same Prison:

Mat 5: [23] If therefore thou offer thy gift at the altar, and there thou remember that thy brother hath any thing against thee; [24] Leave there thy offering before the altar, and go first to be reconciled to thy brother: and then coming thou shalt offer thy gift. [25] Be at agreement with thy adversary betimes, whilst thou art in the way with him: lest perhaps the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison [26] Amen I say to thee, thou shalt not go out from thence till thou repay the last farthing.

St. Cyprian eloquently argues based on this prison, "It is one thing to stand for pardon, another thing to attain to glory: it is one thing, when cast into prison, not to go out thence until one has paid the uttermost farthing; another thing at once to receive the wages of faith and courage. It is one thing, tortured by long suffering for sins, to be cleansed and long purged by fire; another to have purged all sins by suffering. It is one thing, in fine, to be in suspense till the sentence of God at the day of judgment; another to be at once crowned by the Lord.” [3]

Tertullian interprets: “Now the friendly understanding you will have to carry out must arise from your observance of the contract: you must never think of getting back any of the things which you have abjured, and have restored to him, lest he should summon you as a fraudulent man, and a transgressor of your agreement, before God the Judge (for in this light do we read of him, in another passage, as ‘the accuser of the brethren,’ or saints, where reference is made to the actual practice of legal prosecution); and lest this Judge deliver you over to the angel who is to execute the sentence, and he commit you to the prison of hell, out of which there will be no dismissal until the smallest even of your delinquencies be paid off in the period before the resurrection. What can be a more fitting sense than this? What a truer interpretation?” [4]

Once more: a prison from which souls can be delivered is neither Heaven nor Hell proper. But a spiritual prison from which prisoners depart when they have paid the last farthing is precisely such an imprisonment in an intermediate state.

The Fourth Proof: Our Lord speaks of lesser stripes in punishment:

Luk 12:[46] “The lord of that servant will come in the day that he hopeth not, and at the hour that he knoweth not, and shall separate him, and shall appoint him his portion with unbelievers. [47] And that servant who knew the will of his lord, and prepared not himself, and did not according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. [48] But he that knew not, and did things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. And unto whomsoever much is given, of him much shall be required: and to whom they have committed much, of him they will demand the more.”

This follows the Old Testament requirement:

Deut 25:[2] And if they see that the offender be worthy of stripes: they shall lay him down, and shall cause him to be beaten before them. According to the measure of the sin shall the measure also of the stripes be:

Now, those who are beaten eternally have their lot with the unbelievers. But those who sinned in ignorance will deserve less stripes i.e. non-eternal or only temporal punishment. Hence, it follows that these souls will ultimately be liberated.

St. Augustine persuasively states: “But temporary punishments are suffered by some in this life only, by others after death, by others both now and then; but all of them before that last and strictest judgment. But of those who suffer temporary punishments after death, all are not doomed to those everlasting pains which are to follow that judgment; for to some, as we have already said, what is not remitted in this world is remitted in the next, that is, they are not punished with the eternal punishment of the world to come.” [5]

Another related proof comes from Our Lord saying that some sins are forgiven in this world, while implying some others could be forgiven in the world to come. (Mat 12:32). As the Catholic Encyclopedia shows, St. Augustine was one to make this argument. And Pope St. Gregory, the Great Dialogist, was another. We will quote the latter here. To the question “Whether there be any Fire of Purgatory in the next life”, the Saintly Pope answers in the affirmative, saying, “we must believe that before the day of judgment there is a Purgatory fire for certain small sins: because our Saviour saith, that he which speaketh blasphemy against the holy Ghost, that it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, nor in the world to come.66 Out of which sentence we learn, that some sins are forgiven in this world, and some other may be pardoned in the next: for that which is denied concerning one sin, is consequently understood to be granted touching some other. But yet this, as I said, we have not to believe but only concerning little and very small sins, as, for example, daily idle talk, immoderate laughter, negligence in the care of our family (which kind of offences scarce can they avoid, that know in what sort sin is to be shunned), ignorant errors in matters of no great weight: all which sins be punished after death, if men procured not pardon and remission for them in their lifetime” [6]

The Fifth Proof: St. Paul prays for his departed Christian friend Onesiphorus:

St. Paul offers a final simple proof: “The Lord give mercy to the house of Onesiphorus: because he hath often refreshed me, and hath not been ashamed of my chain:” [2 Tim 1:16]. Now, it is manifest in the text, and not infrequently admitted even by Protestant commentators, that Onesiphorus was a departed Christian, whose works of mercy St. Paul calls to mind.

St. Thomas admirably argues: “Now there is no need to pray for the dead who are in heaven, for they are in no need; nor again for those who are in hell, because they cannot be loosed from sins.”[7] This magnificent proof of St. Thomas is a final proof of Purgatory.

St. Chrysostom comments: “Let us weep for these; let us assist them according to our power; let us think of some assistance for them, small though it be, yet still let us assist them. How and in what way? By praying and entreating others to make prayers for them, by continually giving to the poor on their behalf.” [8]

There are other Biblical references to "spirits of the just made perfect" (Heb 12:23) which implies they undergo a process of purification to become perfect. There is also a reference in the Doctrine of Christ to His having made "purgation of sins" after His Death, "Who being the brightness of his glory, and the figure of his substance, and upholding all things by the word of his power, making purgation of sins, sitteth on the right hand of the majesty on high." (Heb 1:3). If Our Lord made purgation of sins, then there is a Purgatory where these sins were purged by Him. Again, in Jn 15:2, it is said the Father purges every branch in Christ that bears fruit, that it may bear more fruit: "Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit." (Jn 15:2). Branches who die are purged by God in Purgatory.

Conclusion: Purgatory is Real. Good News, you can avoid it!

When Our Lord spoke of His Sacred Body and Precious Blood being offered up for the “remission of sins”, the promised remission applies in an exemplary manner to the Church Suffering, the faithful departed. Holy Mass exceeds by far the sacrifices of the old law and more wondrously liberates the suffering souls in Purgatory. Many who could never have been liberated by the sacrifices of the righteous Maccabees, even if those sacrifices had been offered till the end of time, already have been or will be liberated according to the plan of God before the end of time. How grateful then we should be to have the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass to offer! How blessed to know there is a Purgatory! They who do not believe in Purgatory have no good hope of escaping it. Those of us who believe and confess that there is a Purgatory can easily, if we co-operate with God’s Grace, avoid going there.

God and Mary have revealed, with Church Approval, a Life Offering. Jesus and Mary have promised all who offer their lives, all their Masses and Communions, good works, prayers and sacrifices, to Jesus and Mary, for the salvation of souls, that they can avoid Purgatory and go straight to Heaven.

Addendum: Bible verses on heavenly reward for good works

Rom 2:7 "To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: 8But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, 9Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; 10But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: 11For there is no respect of persons with God."

2 Pet 1:5 "And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; 6And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; 7And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity. 8For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins. 10Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: 11For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ."

Rev 2:9 "I know thy works...10...be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life. 11He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death."

Rev 2:16 "Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth. 17He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it."

Rev 2:26 "And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: 27And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father. 28And I will give him the morning star. 29He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches."

The passage in Heb 10:26-31 cited by Vargas Milan and discussed by Rob Smith is further evidence that "if one sins willfully after having received the knowledge of the Truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins". This shows sins committed after conversion are punished more severely by God. Sometimes they are punished in this life, and sometimes, if not undergone in this life, that penalty for sin will have to be undergone in Purgatory. NishantXavierFor Christ the King 10:47, 25 July 2020 (EDT)

One can easily avoid Purgatory if one frequently goes for Confession and frequently receives the Precious Blood that washes sins in Holy Communion. If one doesn't do these two things, one cannot avoid Purgatory. There is Grace upon Grace for those who love God and keep His Commandments in His Church. If people separate and want to do their own thing, then it's going to be very difficult for them, in light of all the above verses, to avoid Purgatory.

2 Maccabees clearly teaches Purgatory and sacrifices for the departed

2 Macc 12:[43]: And making a gathering, he sent twelve thousand drachms of silver to Jerusalem for sacrifice to be offered for the sins of the dead, thinking well and religiously concerning the resurrection, [44] (For if he had not hoped that they that were slain should rise again, it would have seemed superfluous and vain to pray for the dead,) [45] And because he considered that they who had fallen asleep with godliness, had great grace laid up for them. [46] It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins.

All this is refuted in the dialogue between God and Satan in the Book of Job. Satan tells God that the only reason Job serves God is cause God is paying Job with blessings. Satan insults God and tells him Job is God's paid prostitute. That's what you are doing here by quoting Maccabees. And it gets worse. God is fairly clear - not only can he not be bought, he can't be bargained with either. Salvation is on God's terms.
  • "sent twelve thousand drachms of silver to Jerusalem for sacrifice to be offered for the sins of the dead,"
Your works are filthy rags. RobSTrump 2Q2Q 10:16, 27 July 2020 (EDT)

Praying for the departed is good and holy and pious and righteous. If you don't pray for the departed, after knowing you should, you commit sin. NishantXavierFor Christ the King 22:29, 29 July 2020 (EDT)

This is why, when Our Lord instituted the Perpetual Sacrifice of His Body and His Blood as the everlasting Memorial Sacrifice for the remission of sins, He said, Mat 26:[26]: "And whilst they were at supper, Jesus took bread, and blessed, and broke: and gave to his disciples, and said: Take ye, and eat. This is my body. [27] And taking the chalice, he gave thanks, and gave to them, saying: Drink ye all of this. [28] For this is my blood of the new testament, which shall be shed for many unto remission of sins." thus leaving the Sacrifice of His Body and His Blood to His Church as an everlasting memorial Sacrifice to be offered for the remission of the sins of all, including the departed, who "had great grace laid up for them" but still nevertheless needed the remission of sins, for we "pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins".

St. Paul prays for Onesiphorus personally to find Mercy from the Lord on Judgment Day: "[16] The Lord give mercy to the house of Onesiphorus: because he hath often refreshed me, and hath not been ashamed of my chain: [17] But when he was come to Rome, he carefully sought me, and found me. [18] The Lord grant unto him to find mercy of the Lord in that day: and in how many things he ministered unto me at Ephesus, thou very well knowest." [2 Tim 1:16-18] NishantXavierFor Christ the King 22:30, 29 July 2020 (EDT)

It doesn't say he's dead. RobSTrump 2Q2Q 22:52, 29 July 2020 (EDT)

Independent Skeptic

(The following text was moved here by Conservative from its context on NishantXavier's talk page.)
Those in purgatory are present with the Lord, but in justice they are temporarily deprived of the Beatific vision, and their grief at not fully choosing to please him by their works (Rom 2:6-11) torments them like fire as all their imperfections like wood, hay, or chaff are burned but they themselves are saved (1 Cor 3:15), because Christ died for their sins and by the power of his blood in the fire of his love commands they be purified, as the church teaches "the chaff he will burn with unquenchable fire" (Matt 3:12). Jesus commanded, "Listen to the church" "Listen to what the Spirit says to the churches" "Obey the elders". You say "Don't listen to the church" "Don't listen to what the Spirit says to the churches" "Don't obey the elders" "Don't listen to the traditions". Paul himself commands keeping the oral and written traditions and to keep away from any brother who is not in accord with the tradition delivered (2 Thes 2:15; 3:6). The tradition includes what scripture commands: "Listen to the church" "Listen to what the Spirit says to the churches" "Obey the elders who watch over your souls". It doesn't say they will live impeccable, sinless lives (1 John 1:8-10). NishantXavier and Dataclarifier focused on God and his word with lots of scripture supporting the authority of the church and the church doctrine of purgatory that purifies the church. You insist they don't know the scriptures. You say I don't know what the church is. The Church is the one body of Christ, "which he purchased with his blood" "and "gave himself up for her, that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, that he might present the church to himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish", as "the pillar and foundation of the truth", with one Head and one shepherd to "feed his sheep" with guardians the Holy Spirit has made to feed the church of God which he purchased with his own blood, leading into all truth forever (John 14:16-17; 16:12-13). "Everyone will be salted with fire" (Mark 9:49). "Those who went out, were not of us." (antichrist) 1 John 2:18-19. You clearly persist in denying what scripture says. It is clearly evident who gave you authority to contradict the scriptures and the church and the words of Christ. You won't even listen to Conservative. He said to do your debating on the debate pages (see below [on NishantXavier's talk page]), and you still persist in doing it here [on NishantXavier's talk page]. If any one deserves to be blocked, it's you, for your defiance and your rejection of his reasonable counsel as a brother Christian, and your clearly evident incivility and violation of Conservapedia ethics and standards of reasonable editing. --IndependentSkeptic (talk) 02:27, 25 July 2020 (EDT)

Don't try to flush away Rob's spiritual victories with a torrent of personal attacks just because it affects you. Are we supposed to feel sorry for you and grant you moral supremacy simply because you convey a sense of anger? How do we know, even if we assume it's real and not an imposture designed to give yourself an advantage in being persuasive, your anger is not in actuality the consequence of self-inflicted acts and not really Rob's actions at all? How do we know it doesn't follow from bad faith and instead of wanting to marshal your abilities to solve a spiritual problem, you resent having to recast your arguments in the light of contrary evidence and so only do it in a half-hearted way as if to say you're immune to responsibility for that sort of labor?
And since RobS can do it well, couldn't we assume further and suppose that you are mocking the usefulness of Rob's ability by the inversion of not only not organizing your explanations around the relative importance of its ideas, but in actuality not even around ideas at all, but instead around the delivery of personal attacks under the silly premise that RobS somehow presents a unique threat? VargasMilan (talk) Saturday, 13:29, 25 July 2020 (EDT)

Don't be taken in by the teaching that once you are saved you will never be punished for sin (Once Saved Always Saved). The Bible says Christian believers are rebuked and chastised and punished. Don't be taken in by the teaching that salvation by the blood of Christ is falsely invalidated by the chastisements of God inflicted by him for their good on those who are in fact undeniably saved by faith in him through the sacrifice of Christ once for all. You need to look at the Bible's teaching that Christians saved by the blood of Christ are painfully rebuked, chastised, and actually punished for sins committed after justification, to correct their course during life and to purify them in justice after death, but that they are also not condemned to the everlasting punishment of hell (and after hell, the lake of fire Rev. 20:14-15).

Purging (purgation, purification) by fire is mentioned in the Bible, while sola scriptura by scripture alone is never mentioned. Verses accepted by both Protestants and Catholics include:

  • Malachi 3:3 he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver (by fire)
  • Zechariah 13:8-9 I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried (by fire): they shall call me by name, and I will hear them.
  • Revelation 21:27 nothing unclean shall enter it (heaven)...but only those who are written in the Lamb's book of life.

I hope that no one believes that anyone dies clean of all faults. That's a fantasy. "Lord cleanse me from my hidden faults" Psalm 19:12. How can you confess real faults you are unaware of, faults that really do offend God? Purgation is a process of cleansing those who are already eternally saved before they are finally allowed to enter heaven. —Article Purgatory is not in the Bible! Answers to Common Objections VI, seriation, by Scott Eric Alt - To Give a Defence (patheos.com)

  • 1 Peter 4:12-19 Do not be surprised at the fiery ordeal that has come on you to test you...For it is time for judgment to begin with God's household; and if it begins with us, what will the outcome be for those who do not obey the gospel of God? And "If it is hard for the righteous to be saved, what will become of the ungodly and the sinner?" So then, those who suffer according to God's will should commit themselves to their faithful Creator and continue to do good.
  • Hebrews 12:1-2 My son, do not make light of the Lord's discipline, and do not lose heart when he rebukes you, because the Lord disciplines the one he loves, and he chastens/chastises everyone he accepts as his son. Endure hardship as discipline; God is treating you as his children. For what children are not disciplined by their father? If you are not disciplined—and everyone undergoes discipline—then you are not legitimate, not true sons and daughters at all. Moreover, we have all had human fathers who disciplined us and we respected them for it. How much more should we submit to the Father of spirits and live!
  • Romans 8:18-28 We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time. Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption to sonship, the redemption of our bodies. —Article Bible Verses About Pain, by BibleStudy Tools Staff (biblestudytools.com)

Look at 1 Corinthians 3:15 again (saved as by fire), and 2 Timothy 2:21 If anyone purifies himself from what is ignoble, then he will be a vessel for noble use, consecrated and useful to the master of the house, ready for any good work.

Sin has consequences, even when we repent and are forgiven for these sins. Look at

  • Hebrews 12:6 (the Lord disciplines him whom he loves, and chastises every one whom he receives) and Proverbs 3:11-12 (My son, do not despise the LORD's discipline or be weary of his reproof , for the LORD reproves him whom he loves, as a father the son in whom he delights) and 2 Samuel 12:13-14 Then David exclaimed to Nathan, "I have sinned against the Lord!" Nathan replied to David, "Yes, and the Lord has forgiven you your sin. You are not going to die. Nonetheless..." David was punished, the "man after God's own heart".

God does forgive our sins when we repent of them and confess them to him. But this does not mean that there are no painful consequences for our sins. —Article I'm a little confused about Hebrew 12:6. What does it mean when it says "the Lord will punish", yet also, "when you ask for foregiveness it is forgotten"? (bible.org/question)

I want to add:

  • 1 Corinthians 11:27-32 That is why many of you are weak and ill, and some have died. But if we judged ourselves truly, we should not be judged. But when we are judged by the Lord, we are chastened/chastised so that we may not be condemned along with the world.
  • The case of the young man who chopped off his own hand to impress his gang with his reckless courage and forceful resolve to instill in them fear of his brutality while he was on drugs, and afterward became a Christian and repented with all his heart, contradicts the error that the Blood of Christ removes all residual temporal punishment for sin. He was forgiven his sins and truly saved from hell, but he still suffered the consequences of the folly of the sin of chopping off his own hand for the rest of his life.
  • Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. It is God who purifies, as he says in John 15:2 Every branch of mine that bears no fruit, he takes away, and every branch that does bear fruit he prunes, that it may bear more fruit.

The Bible itself teaches that there is a fire that saves that is not of hell but of his love, that God painfully reproves, rebukes, chastises and punishes those whom he loves, those who are eternally saved by the blood of Christ, so that nothing unclean will enter heaven, and, freed of every stain remaining of the consequence of their sins, they will forever rejoice in God's mercy and forgiveness by the blood of Christ. The purifying punishment of purgatory does not cancel the saving blood of Christ but purifies "those who are (being) perfected" (Greek New Testament) precisely because of their faith in the saving blood of Christ which delivered them from the wrath of God that condemns unrepentant sinners and the ungodly to the punishment of eternal hell and the lake of fire. God purges and purifies them because of the sacrifice of Christ, without whom there is no forgiveness of sins. --IndependentSkeptic (talk) 14:18, 26 July 2020 (EDT)

And you have one more discrepancy: If baptism "now saves you", why is it later after purgatory? RobSTrump 2Q2Q 09:31, 29 July 2020 (EDT)
Minor post-baptismal venial sins (committed after baptism) that have not been confessed are mercifully purged away through the precious blood of Christ by our God, "a consuming fire" Deuteronomy 4:24-31; Hebrews 10:29. The Christian is thus "saved, yet as by fire".
Major post-baptismal mortal sins (committed after baptism) that have not been confessed before death condemn the soul to hell and then to the lake of fire. There are sins not unto death, and there are sins unto death 1 John 5:14-17. --Dataclarifier (talk) 07:18, 31 July 2020 (EDT)
See 1 John 1:9 (context verses 7-10) "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. --Dataclarifier (talk) 07:28, 31 July 2020 (EDT)
Mortal sins are (1) major evil acts or omissions (2) committed with knowledge and awareness of their evil at the moment they are committed (3) without any coercion or compulsion either internal or external. If any one of these three factors is missing the sin is not mortal (deadly) but venial (not deadly). This is based on what the Bible says in 1 John 5:14-17, which includes the intercession of Christians for those who sin, that they might have life. --Dataclarifier (talk) 08:00, 31 July 2020 (EDT)
  • "8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
    "9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
    "10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. Ephesians 2:8-10
  • "Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin." James 4:17
    --Dataclarifier (talk) 08:48, 31 July 2020 (EDT)
  • "Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith alone." James 2:24. --Dataclarifier (talk) 09:08, 31 July 2020 (EDT)
You need to make the whole Word your mantra, not just one or two verses, like gates of hell or Thou art Peter. You sound like Elizabeth Clare Prophet (beginning at 2:22) but I suspect you're too lazy to perform the work (necessary as you say for salvation) of getting God's Word inside you. RobSTrump 2Q2Q 12:35, 31 July 2020 (EDT)
Oh, NishantXavier and IndependentSkeptic and I have cited more than "just one or two verses" on this page, as anybody with eyes to see can see. --Dataclarifier (talk) 17:41, 31 July 2020
Everytime we get into the Bible, and God's Word raises specific points that conflict with your doctrine, you blow a fuse, cannot respond, and fall back on the gates of hell mantra. Prior to a week ago, it was your Thou art Peter and upon this rock mantra. Then it was an authority mantra. Months ago it was baptism saves you now mantra and a go forth baptizing mantra.
I asked from day one, What is salvation? What is the grace of God? What is the Gospel of Grace? You've never shown any interest in these subjects, which presumably you'd have to know before you "go forth baptizing". Instead, all you preach is a gospel of wrath and excommunication for not accepting the "authority" of men, rather than God. RobSTrump 2Q2Q 18:10, 31 July 2020 (EDT)
(EDT)
And we have the whole Word in all 73 books of the Bible, in the Eucharist, in the Church, in the Holy Spirit in the Magisterium leading into all truth for ever. --Dataclarifier (talk) 17:46, 31 July 2020 (EDT)
The very fact that we have so easily cited such an abundance of scripture here demonstrating the truth of this doctrine of salvation and the truth of the invincible authority of the Church established by God shows that we have got God's Word inside us. No beginner could have done this. We are conversant with the Word, the whole Word. We love the Bible. The Bible is why we are Catholic. The Bible testifies to the Church as the pillar and bulwark of the truth. --Dataclarifier (talk) 17:57, 31 July 2020 (EDT)
There is one more issue that probably needs its own subhead, and that is, you cannot hide behind Roman church doctrine. It is your doctrine now, having swallowed it hook, line, and sinker. RobSTrump 2Q2Q 18:22, 31 July 2020 (EDT)
My own mother, who joined the Catholic Church after me, reminded me that when a couple at the Senior Center, who were staunchly anti-catholic—and condemned her for being Catholic—that when they said to her, "All those Catholic monks ever did was sit in their cells", she said to them, "If it wasn't for those "Catholic monks" copying the scriptures for centuries, you wouldn't even have a Bible." She said they had nothing to say, and they never criticized her for being Catholic again.
I strongly recommend a book I read when I was wondering if the Catholic Church might be the one: "Where We Got The Bible: Our Debt to the Catholic Church, by the Right Rev. Henry G. Graham". The author pointed out that if the Church had wanted to get rid of the Bible by destroying all copies and manuscripts and substitute false doctrine it had plenty of opportunity to do it for 1500 years, but she never did. Instead she faithfully preserved it and copied it consistently by hand, word for word, up to the invention of the printing press, and the first work that the inventor Gutenberg printed on his press was the whole Catholic Bible. Variations in hand-written manuscript copies are very few, and scriptural scholars have established that we have the true Bible today, thanks to the dedicated work of Catholic monks under the sponsorship of the Church. Church doctrine includes the whole Bible. --Dataclarifier (talk) 19:31, 31 July 2020 (EDT)
This gets tiresome. We've been over this dozens of time on dozens of pages. It is I who respects and has admiration for the work of those monks. It is you who tears up their work and throws it in the trash, together with your Magisterium who likewise have done the same. RobSTrump 2Q2Q 19:47, 31 July 2020 (EDT)
If I "tore up their work and threw it in the trash" I wouldn't have a copy. I have the whole Greek Bible, the whole Hebrew Bible, the whole Latin Vulgate, the Douay-Rheims Challoner Bible, the whole King James Version with apocrypha, and the modern Catholic Bible with notes. I have read them, and continue to read them. All of these versions in the original languages and in English translation have the same identical scriptural doctrine of the inspired Word of God that all authority is established by God and whoever resists what God has established resists the ordinance of God. All of these versions in the original languages and in English translation Protestant and Catholic have the doctrine
• that Jesus built his church upon the rock, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it;
• that the church is built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets as a temple of God in the Holy Spirit;
• that the church is the household of God, the church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark/foundation/ground of the truth;
• that through the church the mystery of God hidden from the foundation of the world is revealed;
• that God has appointed in the church elders as guardians of the church he purchased with his own blood to feed the whole flock of the Lord;
• that we are to obey those who have the rule of leaders over us who watch over our souls;
• that to them God has entrusted the ministry of reconciliation in the stead of Christ, God as it were speaking by them;
• that we are not saved by faith alone;
• that we are not to be led astray by those ignorant and unstable persons who twist the scriptures to their own destruction, the scriptures being of no private interpretation;
• that those who went out from us are antichrists, who defy authority and will not obey every human institution (of men) and speak ill of the glorious ones and cause divisions, worldly people devoid of the spirit, loud-mouthed boasters, grumblers, malcontents, following their own passions, denying the Spirit who is with us for ever leading us into all truth, who preach a different gospel than the one delivered by the apostles and handed down together with the traditions we are to keep, not all things having been written with paper and ink by them.
All of this is in the Bible, as we have shown on this page, and on other pages. You find this tiresome. We never tire of witnessing to the truth of the scriptures so faithfully preserved and handed down to us. If you had respect and admiration for the work of those monks, you would listen to what they preserved so faithfully for us, on whom the end of the ages has come.
May God give you sight to see what you evidently do not see, and hearing to hear what you evidently do not hear. We see and hear and obey what God has ordained for our salvation in the blood of Jesus Christ alone by his mediation together with the intercessory prayers of the Blessed Virgin Mary and the angels and saints in the church interceding for us with Christ in the Holy Spirit to God the Father that we and you might be preserved body soul and spirit and saved at last to praise him forever. Amen.
--Dataclarifier (talk) 21:39, 31 July 2020 (EDT)
You don't have to tell me what's in the bible, I already know it. Knowing it and believing it are two different things. You don't believe Christ died once for all. You don't believe to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. You don't believe in the saving grace of God. And most importantly, you don't understand what salvation is, or even have an interest to learn.
Your doctrine is a collection of mantras, all contradictory one to another. You think that by repeating them over and over again, it'll get you into God grace, along with jumping through a bunch of other hoops. RobSTrump 2Q2Q 22:59, 31 July 2020 (EDT)

User:Dataclarifier

The following poll was moved here by RobSmith. It was originally posted immediately below RobSmith's poll at the bottom of the page. See Diff. --Dataclarifier (talk) 06:44, 31 July 2020 (EDT)
He disputes the added "Reminder" as a way of "changing the rules after the fact". --Dataclarifier (talk) 06:55, 31 July 2020 (EDT)—See Diff.

"I will build my church"

  • Matthew 16:18 I say unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
  • 1 Timothy 3:15 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.
  • 1 John 2:18-19 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time. They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

Hmmm. The debate over purgatory is clearly based on whether the gates of hell have prevailed against the church Jesus built on rock as the pillar and ground of the truth.

C'mon RobSmith! Tell me this is true! Just a simple "Yes" or "No". Don't give me any exceptions, exemptions, explanations or anything else. Just post up here and say "Yes, the word of God is true".

Poll: Vote yes or no

Vote Yes or No if the above four verses of the Bible are true.

Umm, there are only three verses cited which I voted upon. I think you may have made a Freudian slip and considered your comments and thoughts in your head as the Word of God. Don't worry. Muhammad, Joseph Smith, Gregory, Innocent III, Boniface VIII, Callixtus III, Pius IX, Pius XII and others all made the same mistake. Never mind. RobSTrump 2Q2Q 12:32, 30 July 2020 (EDT)
Yes, it's true
No, it's a bunch of malarkey quoted out of context bla bla bla....



Remember: If you vote "Yes" you affirm the whole doctrine of the Church as the truth (which includes purgatory, and the whole canon of 73 books of the Bible). --Dataclarifier (talk) 01:55, 31 July 2020 (EDT)

Man (i.e. the church) does not save. God does. You are preaching a Satanic doctrine. RobSTrump 2Q2Q 12:49, 31 July 2020 (EDT)
See 22 verses about BODY OF CHRIST, THE CHURCH (bible.knowing-jesus.com).
According to the Bible: Salvation is by the blood of Christ in the Church. --Dataclarifier (talk) 17:02, 31 July 2020 (EDT)
The same article lists (without comment): 1 Corinthians 12:27; Romans 12:4-5; 1 Corinthians 12:12; Ephesians 4:4; Colossians 1:24; Colossians 1:18; Ephesians 1:22; Ephesians 5:23; John 2:19-22; Ephesians 2:19-22; 1 Corinthians 12:13; Galatians 3:27; Colossians 2:19; 1 Corinthians 10:16-17; Ephesians 4:15-16; 1 Corinthians 12:25-26; Ephesians 4:25; Ephesians 5:29-30; Colossians 3:15; Romans 12:12-31; Ephesians 4:11-13.
I would add along with these 1 Timothy 3:15 "the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth." The truth includes purgatory, as shown abundantly and irrefutably on this page above by the whole context of the whole Bible. Obviously not a Satanic doctrine. What "the pillar and ground of the truth" teaches must be the truth, since Jesus Himself promised the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. --Dataclarifier (talk) 17:31, 31 July 2020 (EDT)
According to the Bible, salvation is by the blood of Christ. But that makes no difference to you, cause you deny both salvation and the redeeming blood of Christ with your doctrine of Purgatory. RobSTrump 2Q2Q 17:53, 31 July 2020 (EDT)
According to the Church, salvation is by the blood of Christ alone. --Dataclarifier (talk) 18:05, 31 July 2020 (EDT)
Now you're lying to my face. You've spent days defending Purgatory and denying salvation and the blood of Christ.
Seriously, you need to stop worshiping men and the church and begin worshiping God, and giving Him the respect and reverence due. But you never, ever ever preach that. All you preach is a devotional guide to the "authority" of men, not God. Oh, you'll add it as an afterthought when you're called on it. But you always always always return to church church church. This is a Satanic grip on you, that you cannot distinguish between the authority of God and the authority of men. RobSTrump 2Q2Q 18:34, 31 July 2020 (EDT)
This is blatantly evident. You do not dispute the Magisterium has the authority to make cannibalism, fornication, adultery, and murder an acceptable and pleasing sacrifice to God. This is EXACTLY what YOUR doctrine teaches. And the Gates of Hell cannot prevail against the Magisterium's authority. We've all heard it enough times from your mouth. RobSTrump 2Q2Q 18:41, 31 July 2020 (EDT)
Since the Church is the pillar and bulwark of truth led forever into all truth by the Spirit of truth she cannot and never will make the abominations of cannibalism, fornication, adultery, and murder an acceptable and pleasing sacrifice to God. Be careful that you do not go too far and say the Holy Spirit in the Church as the temple of God guiding into all truth forever is unclean (see Matthew 12:31-32). According to the Church, salvation is by the blood of Christ alone. You say her doctrine is Satanic. It has been guaranteed by the word of Christ that "the gates of hell shall not prevail against it", "the pillar and bulwark of the truth". Since she is so, all her doctrine and dogma is truth. We appeal to you by the mercies of God, come home. --Dataclarifier (talk) 22:12, 31 July 2020 (EDT)
See, you don't know the Bible. The Holy Spirit is given to individual believers, not to a collective entity by birthright. Ye are of your father the devil. RobSTrump 2Q2Q 22:50, 31 July 2020 (EDT)
You've said twice in your last two postings, "salvation is by the blood of Christ alone" after making reams of postings telling people that their sin is upon their own head in Purgatory. You are blinded. I'm getting ready to just walk away from your lies and lying to my face. It's insulting. Fortunately, I'm a Christian saved by grace, and learned to be patient with my fellow man, believers and non-believers. But I am not here to listen to you repeatedly throwing lies in my face. RobSTrump 2Q2Q 23:11, 31 July 2020 (EDT)
Careful analysis of the arguments of RobSmith and other like-minded anti-Catholic polemicists ["This is EXACTLY what YOUR doctrine teaches"], when compared to what the actual teaching of Catholicism is and what the Bible actually says about the Church, reveals a common strategy of using the Straw man fallacy, Misrepresentation, the Loaded question, Putting words in someone's mouth, Slander, Calumny and Libel, backed up by Specious reasoning, Casuistry, Sophistry, the Fallacy of invincible ignorance and anti-Catholic Bigotry, animated by a deep Enmity and Prejudice, enforced by an eagerly acquired Confirmation bias in arguing against the Church (that he says he was raised in), all of which can blind any one to the truth of what the Church truly teaches, to avoid seeing the truth of what he has rejected. What RobSmith has repeatedly said the Catholic Church teaches is not in fact what the Catholic Church actually teaches. He has drawn his own erroneous and inaccurate conclusions about a fictitious Catholic Church of his own imagining, conclusions which have nothing to do with actual Catholic doctrine and dogma about the sacred truth of salvation through the precious blood of Jesus on the Cross by the fullness of truth in the Bible which must be rightly understood by Apostolic tradition according to the discernment of the Magisterium guided by the Holy Spirit preserving both Scripture and us from distortions and errors.
As for myself, as I've already said, when I found out what the Catholic Church actually teaches, instead of the Falsehoods that very sincere people in error had told me she teaches (not knowing they were in error), I discovered that the Catholic Church is actually the most biblical Church on the face of the earth, indwelt by the Holy Spirit, proclaiming salvation by the precious blood of Jesus Christ alone, in her scriptures and sacraments and worship and doctrine and catechetical instruction and good works and prayers. Jesus is Lord of all in his body the Church going forth and making disciples of all nations, baptizing them and teaching all that he has commanded. And Lo! He is with the Church always, leading us into all truth even to the end of time. Amen. --Dataclarifier (talk) 23:12, 31 July 2020 (EDT)
You've given countless illustrations where the Magisterium cancels, contradicts, and overrides the Bible. In any dispute between the Bible and the Roman Catholic church, you come down on the side of Magisterium over the Word of God, claiming the Magisterium cannot be wrong. Look at the Magisterium's track record. God says don't communicate with the dead. The Magisterium says it's okay. God says Christ died once for all. The Magisterium says your blood is upon your own head. God says don't make vane repetitions. Vane repetitions is the basis of your faith.
There is no doubt, under the very doctrine preached by YOU, not the Magisterium, that if the Magisterium taught cannibalism and murder were acceptable sacrifices to God, that you would say "Sieg Heil" and march off to preach to all nations that cannibalism and murder are acceptable offerings to God. This is because you have abandoned God and his Word and replaced it with an idol - the Magisterium of the Roman Catholic Church.
You are devoid of spiritual understanding and discernment. You've become a danger to yourself and others. And you cannot blame the Roman Catholic Church for abandoning the responsibility you have to yourself at this point. RobSTrump 2Q2Q 23:35, 31 July 2020 (EDT)
This is really about infallibility and not purgatory at all, isn't it?
It's one thing to cling to a source of interpretation slavishly, but shouldn't we on the other hand put our interpretations in a good light so new believers don't stumble on the way of learning to do what God requires? VargasMilan (talk) Friday, 23:58, 31 July 2020 (EDT)
The doctrine of purgatory according to RobSmith is not the doctrine of purgatory according to the Catholic Church.
What RobSmith has said is the Catholic doctrine of purgatory is not the Catholic doctrine of purgatory.
This is evident from the citations of the Bible about purgatory in Catechism of the Catholic Church and the Catholic interpretation of those scriptures by the authentic Magisterium of the Catholic Church. The Catechism of the Catholic Church explains this in detail using scripture, beginning at paragraph 1029. --IndependentSkeptic--Dataclarifier (talk) 00:03, 1 August 2020 (EDT)
DC: Nobody cares, not even the sinners in Purgatory, of which there are none.
VM: That's right. The Debate is straying all over the map. I think it's time to wind this one down and start a new one on another topic. RobSTrump 2Q2Q 00:23, 1 August 2020 (EDT)
VargasMilan, God bless you! Every seeker of truth who has the Bible can read for themselves what it says plainly, simply, clearly about the authority of the Church. That's why so many citations of the scriptures have been posted here about purgatory and the authority of the Church to clarify the true meaning of scripture and to teach the truth forever. It's just as Jesus said: "Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me. If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself." John 7:16-17. It's the same with the Church. Those who truly will to do God's will will know if the doctrine of the Church Jesus founded on a rock, against which the gates of hell shall not prevail, is true. I suppose there will always be someone who will not hear what the Spirit says to the churches and neglect to hear the church. To this Jesus said, "He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still." Let those that are blind leaders of the blind go their way and fall into a ditch. We must not weary of speaking the truth of God. We will all give account of ourselves to God. (Romans 14:1–15:6). Pax vobis Semper fidelis --Dataclarifier (talk) 00:24, 1 August 2020 (EDT)
Too bad the doctrine of the Roman church is not the doctrine of him who sent Jesus. RobSTrump 2Q2Q 00:36, 1 August 2020 (EDT)
Oh, but it is. The Bible says so. Jesus sent by the Father built his church on rock, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. It is the pillar and foundation of the truth, led into truth forever by the Spirit of truth. The doctrine of the Roman church is therefore guaranteed by Christ and the Bible to be the doctrine of him who sent Jesus. --Dataclarifier (talk) 00:56, 1 August 2020 (EDT)
Bull-malarkey. There is no word "magisterium", "catechism". or "purgatory" in the Bible. You wanna talk about Putting words in someone's mouth? Look at what your Magisterium does to God! RobSTrump 2Q2Q 01:03, 1 August 2020 (EDT)
This is what you sound like. God did not create your mouth or hands to serve him in the manner you do and preach. RobSTrump 2Q2Q 01:08, 1 August 2020 (EDT)
There also is no word "Trinity", "Bible", "rapture", "protestant", "catholic", "orthodox".
The term "scripture alone" is not in the Bible.
"Faith alone" appears only in James 2:24 "You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone."
"Reformation" appears only once, in Hebrews 9:10 regarding the cessation of the Jewish sacrifices of the Mosaic law in the temple (context Hebrews 9:6-14).
Because a term does not appear in the Bible is no proof that these words represent false doctrine or Satanic teachings.--Dataclarifier (talk) 12:34, 1 August 2020 (EDT)
I couldn't agree more. Perhaps you've found the subject for our next Debate. RobSTrump 2Q2Q 14:30, 1 August 2020 (EDT)

Proofs that condemnations of Catholic doctrine are false

Read Where We Got the Bible: Our Debt to the Catholic Church, by the Right Rev. Henry G. Graham
and the Catechism of the Catholic Church

Reverend Graham says in his Introduction:

“IF all were true that is alleged against the Catholic Church in her treatment of Holy Scripture, then the proper title of these papers should be [not] ‘How we got', but 'How we have not got the Bible'. The common and received opinion about the matter among non-Catholics in Britain, for the most part, has been that Rome hates the Bible-that she has done all she could to destroy it—that in all countries where she has held sway she has kept the Bible from the hands of the people—has taken it and burned it whenever she found anyone reading it. Or if she cannot altogether prevent its publication or its perusal, at least she renders it as nearly useless as possible by sealing it up in a dead language which the majority of people can neither read nor understand. And all this she does, (so we are told), because she knows that her doctrines are absolutely opposed to and contradicted by the letter of God's written Word—she holds ­and propagates dogmas and traditions which could not stand one moment's examination if exposed to the searching light of Holy Scripture. [...]
“The Protestant account of pre-reformation Catholicism has been largely a falsification of history. All the faults and sins that could possibly be raked up or invented against Rome, or against particular bishops or priests, were presented to the people of this unhappy land, and all her best acts misconstrued, misjudged, misrepresented, and nothing of good told in her favour. She has been painted as all black and hideous, and no beauty could be seen in her. Consequently people came to believe the tradition as a matter of course, and accepted it as history [...]
“But nowadays many are enquiring—Is it really so? Are we sure of our facts? Are we not building up mountains of abuse and calumny on a false suppositon? Just as all have come to know that the sun, as a matter of fact, does not rise or set but stands still, that there never was a Pope Joan but his name was John, that monasteries and convents are homes of learning and sanctity and charity, and that no Catholic ever pays or ever could pay a single farthing to get his sins remitted—and all this through the spread of knowledge and education and enlightenment and study—so also I venture to think that people will now be rightly considered ignorant and blameworthy, and at the least behind the times, if they do not learn that the notion I have alluded to above about the Catholic Church and the Bible is false and nonsensical—historically false and inherently nonsensical. By a calm consideration of the facts of history and a mind open to conviction on genuine evidence, they will be driven by sheer force of honesty to the conclusion that the Catholic Church, so far from being the monster of iniquity that she is painted, has in very truth been the parent, the author and maker under God, of the Bible; that she has guarded it and defended it all through the ages, and preserved it from error or destruction; that she has ever held it in highest veneration and esteem, and has grounded her doctrines upon it; that she alone has the right to call it her book; that she alone possesses the true Bible and the whole Bible, and that copies of the Scriptures existing outside of her pale, are partly incorrect and partly defective, and that whatever in them is true, is true because derived from her who alone possesses the Book in its fulness and its truth. If they were Catholics, they would love God's Holy Word more and more; they would understand it better; they would adore the Divine Providence that took such a wise and sure means of preserving and perpetuating it; and they would profoundly admire the Catholic Church for her ceaseless vigilance, untiring zeal, and unswerving fidelity to the commission entrusted to her by Almighty God.”

The Catechism of the Catholic Church represents the actual doctrine of the Church. Condemnations of the doctrine are examples of straw man arguments, based on misrepresentation and specious reasoning, which are all demonstrably falsehoods of error. People who have read it have come to believe the actual truth of the doctrine is perfectly biblical. They have found the Catholic Church in all its forms to be the most biblical Church on earth.

Keep in mind that what people say about Catholic doctrine is not necessarily true.
Keep in mind that the scandal of bad and sinful behavior does not invalidate doctrine.
Keep in mind that hypocrites are found in every Christian denomination. Their bad example has never proved that Christianity itself is false.

"By their fruits ye shall know them": The Fruits of Catholicism

"By their fruits ye shall know them". All of the excellent and praiseworthy benefits of Western Civilization are the fruit of the tree of the Catholic Church and the doctrine of her magisterium leading into all the truth.
See Commentary: History Shows Contributions of the Catholic Church to Western Civilization —major contributions to Science, Astronomy, Medicine, establishment of Universities, Hospitals and care centers for the elderly, women and children and orphans, charitable institutions for the poor (all unknown in the pagan world), Christian missionaries sent to pagan lands, converting them from ignorance to knowledge of Jesus Christ, and preserving the Bible.
In addition, the Catholic Church has produced by the grace of God men and women eminent for their holiness and goodness and devotion to Jesus Christ, as the direct fruit of her doctrines and sacraments. Even non-Christians have admired their example, and praised even many of her popes and bishops as saintly examples of Christian goodness to follow. They have even died as martyrs of the Lord for their faith in Jesus Christ. --Dataclarifier (talk) 19:02, 9 August 2020 (EDT)
10 Influential Saints and Their Legends --Dataclarifier (talk) 19:55, 9 August 2020 (EDT)

Exhibit D: Picture of purgatory

Dante's Purgatory b&w.jpeg

This picture clearly shows that purgatory is actually in heaven.

According to Dante, believers wear a "yoke" as they march upward. It seems to me if Jesus Christ saves us, He might not save us from a yoke, if the yoke is our responsibility.

Narrative and visual representations can sometimes help us understand hypothetical constructs and other ideas unclear to the mind's eye.

VargasMilan (talk) Friday, 23:30, 31 July 2020 (EDT)

  • Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.
RobSTrump 2Q2Q 23:45, 31 July 2020 (EDT)
If you ever wanted to repeat a mantra as St. Germaine and Dataclarifier are fond of, use that one : Learn of me, my yoke is easy and my burden light. RobSTrump 2Q2Q 23:48, 31 July 2020 (EDT)
The yoke of the Church is the yoke of Christ. I have found it in every detail easy to bear. --Dataclarifier (talk) 00:29, 1 August 2020 (EDT)
In the Roman Catholic Church I have found rest unto my soul, and the glorious fullness of the meaning of the whole Bible. --Dataclarifier (talk) 01:12, 1 August 2020 (EDT)

Yet, there are a not discountable group of people who find themselves quite sensitive to the yoke of Christ. You have both sought a doctrine that is sufficient for all occasions, so please listen to Dante who talks about these.

CANTO X

While I was delighting myself with looking at the images of such great humilities, and for their Maker's sake dear to see: "Behold," murmured the Poet, "on this side many people, but they make few steps; they will put us on the way to the lofty stairs." My eyes which were intent on gazing, were not slow in turning toward him in order to see novelties, whereof they are fain.

I would not, indeed, Reader, that thou be diverted from thy good purpose, through hearing how God wills that the debt be paid. Heed not the form of the suffering; think on what follows; think that, at the worst, beyond the Great Judgment it cannot go!

I began, "Master, that which I see moving toward us does not seem to me to be persons, but what I know not, I am so at loss in looking." And he to me: "The heavy condition of their torment bows them to earth, so that my own eyes at first had contention with it. But look fixedly there, and disentangle with thy sight that which is coming beneath those stones; already thou canst discern how each is stricken."

O proud Christians, wretched and weary, who, diseased in vision of the mind, have confidence in backward steps, are ye not aware that we are worms born to form the angelic butterfly, which flies unto judgment without defence? Wherefore does your mind float up aloft, since ye are as it were defective insects, even as a worm in which formation fails?

As to support ceiling or roof, by way of corbel, a figure is sometimes seen joining its knees to its breast, which out of the unreal gives birth to a real distress in him who sees it, thus fashioned did I see these, when I gave good heed. True it is, that they were more or less upon their backs; and he who had most patience in his looks, weeping, appeared to say: "I can no more."

CANTO XI

"O Thou Almighty Father! who dost make
The heavens Thy dwelling, not in bounds confined,
But that, with love intenser, there Thou view'st
Thy primal effluence; hallow'd be Thy name:
Join, each created being, to extol
Thy might; for worthy humblest thanks and praise
Is Thy blest Spirit. May Thy kingdom's peace
Come unto us; for we, unless it come,
With all our striving, thither tend in vain.
As, of their will, the Angels unto Thee
Tender meet sacrifice, circling Thy throne
With loud hosannas; so of theirs be done
By saintly men on earth. Grant us, this day,
Our daily manna, without which he roams
Through this rough desert retrograde, who most
Toils to advance his steps. As we to each
Pardon the evil done us, pardon Thou
Benign, and of our merit take no count.
'Gainst the old adversary, prove Thou not
Our virtue, easily subdued; but free
From his incitements, and defeat his wiles.
This last petition, dearest Lord! is made
Not for ourselves; since that were needless now;
But for their sakes who after us remain."

Thus for themselves and us good speed imploring,
Those spirits went beneath a weight like that
We sometimes feel in dreams; all, sore beset,
But with unequal anguish; wearied all;
Round the first circuit; purging as they go
The world's gross darkness off. In our behoof
If their vows still be offer'd, what can here
For them be vow'd and done by such, whose wills
Have root of goodness in them? Well beseems
That we should help them wash away the stains
They carried hence; that so, made pure and light,
They may spring upward to the starry spheres.

"Ah! so may mercy-temper'd justice rid
Your burdens speedily; that ye have power
To stretch your wing, which e'en to your desire
Shall lift you; as ye show us on which hand
Toward the ladder leads the shortest way.
And if there be more passages than one,
Instruct us of that easiest to ascend:
For this man, who comes with me, and bears yet
The charge of fleshly raiment Adam left him,
Despite his better will, but slowly mounts."
From whom the answer came unto these words,
Which my guide spake, appear'd not; but 'twas said:
"Along the bank to rightward come with us;
And ye shall find a pass that mocks not toil
Of living man to climb: and were it not
That I am hinder'd by the rock, wherewith
This arrogant neck is tamed, whence needs I stoop
My visage to the ground; him, who yet lives,
Whose name thou speak'st not, him I fain would view;
To mark if e'er I knew him, and to crave
His pity for the fardel that I bear.
I was of Latium; of a Tuscan born,
A mighty one: Aldobrandesco's name
My sire's, I know not if ye e'er have heard.
My old blood and forefathers' gallant deeds
Made me so haughty, that I clean forgot
The common mother; and to such excess
Wax'd in my scorn of all men, that I fell,
Fell therefore; by what fate, Siena's sons.
Each child in Campagnatico, can tell.
I am Omberto: not me, only, pride
Hath injured, but my kindred all involved
In mischief with her. Here my lot ordains
Under this weight to groan, till I appease
God's angry justice, since I did it not
Amongst the living, here amongst the dead."

Listening I bent my visage down: and one
(Not he who spake) twisted beneath the weight
That urged him, saw me, knew me straight, and call'd;
Holding his eyes with difficulty fix'd
Intent upon me, stooping as I went
Companion of their way. "O!" I exclaim'd,
"Art thou not Oderigi? art not thou
Agobbio's glory, glory of that art
Which they of Paris call the limner's skill?"

"Brother!" said he, "with tints, that gayer smile,
Bolognian Franco's pencil lines the leaves.
His all the honour now; my light obscured.
In truth, I had not been thus courteous to him
The whilst I lived, through eagerness of zeal
For that pre-eminence my heart was bent on.
Here, of such pride, the forfeiture is paid.
Nor were I even here, if, able still
To sin, I had not turn'd me unto God.
O powers of man! how vain your glory, nipt
E'en in its height of verdure, if an age
To lord it over painting's field; and now
The cry is Giotto's, and his name eclipsed.
Thus hath one Guido from the other snatch'd
The letter'd prize: and he, perhaps, is born,
Who shall drive either from their nest. The noise
Of worldly fame is but a blast of wind,
That blows from diverse points, and shifts its name,
Shifting the point it blows from. Shalt thou more
Live in the mouths of mankind, if thy flesh
Part shrivel'd from thee, than if thou hadst died
Before the coral and the pap were left;
Or e'er some thousand years have past? and that
Is, to eternity compared, a space
Briefer than is the twinkling of an eye
To the heaven's slowest orb. He there, who treads
So leisurely before me, far and wide
Through Tuscany resounded once; and now
Is in Siena scarce with whispers named:
There was he sovereign, when destruction caught
The maddening rage of Florence, in that day
Proud as she now is loathsome. Your renown
Is as the herb, whose hue doth come and go;
And his might withers it, by whom it sprang
Crude from the lap of earth." I thus to him:
"True are thy sayings: to my heart they breathe
The kindly spirit of meekness, and allay
What tumours rankle there. But who is he,
Of whom thou spakest but now?" "This," he replied,
"Is Provenzano. He is here, because
He reach'd with grasp presumptuous, at the sway
Of all Siena. Thus he still hath gone,
Thus goeth never-resting, since he died.
Such is the acquittance render'd back of him,
Who, in the mortal life, too much hath dared."
I then: "If soul, that to life's verge delays
Repentance, linger in that lower space,
Nor hither mount, (unless good prayers befriend),
Or ever time, long as it lived, be past;
How chanced admittance was vouchsafed to him?"

"When at his glory's topmost height," said he,
"Respect of dignity all cast aside,
Freely he fix'd him on Siena's plain,
A suitor to redeem his suffering friend,
Who languish'd in the prison-house of Charles;
Nor, for his sake, refused through every vein
To tremble. More I will not say; and dark,
I know, my words are; but thy neighbours soon
Shall help thee to a comment on the text.
This is the work, that from these limits freed him."

CANTO XII

WITH equal pace, as oxen in the yoke,
I, with that laden spirit, journey'd on,
Long as the mild instructor suffer'd me;
But, when he bade me quit him, and proceed,
(For "Here," said he, "behoves with sail and oars
Each man, as best he may, push on his bark,")
Upright, as one disposed for speed, I raised
My body, still in thought submissive bow'd.


Now who among the smug will be first to speak? Don't bother answering; there is no room.

Purgatory or not, be careful lest you find these yoked souls receiving their salvation ahead of you!

VargasMilan (talk) Saturday, 03:08, 1 August 2020 (EDT)

I've made half hearted attempts to read Dante in the past without much success. So I'm dependent on what commentators have said. Coming from a Catholic background I can say many Catholics think that there is some connection between Purgatorio and official Catholic doctrine, but there really is not. Using Protestant idioms, Purgatorio represents that phase in a Christian walk between being "babes in Christ" or a "carnal Christian", where a certain purging of old habits and sin occurs before receiving the Holy Spirit (see "twinkling of an eye", above.)
First comes sincere repentance, then the "babes in Christ" and "carnal Christian" phase. This occurs here in the flesh on this earth. And Dante is speaking in spiritual terms. This is what Dante means by Purgatorio. Eventually some, not all, receive the anointing of the Holy Spirit and move on to Paradiso.
Excerpt:
  • "I am Omberto: not me, only, pride Hath injured [pride, what Augustine calls original sin and Paul says "while we were yet in sin"], but my kindred all involved In mischief with her. Here my lot ordains Under this weight to groan, till I appease God's angry justice [repentence, not a stretch in the joint in the after life], since I did it not Amongst the living [being born again], here amongst the dead ["while we were yet dead in sin"]."....
  • Here, of such pride, the forfeiture is paid. Nor were I even here, if, able still To sin [sinning willfully, not by habit], I had not turn'd me unto God.
Again, coming from a Catholic background, most Protestants do not recognize that Dante is more of a pre-Reformation preacher of the Gospel than a doctrinal advocate of what 200 years later became "the Roman Catholic Church". This represents more of the cultural divide between Northern Europe and the Latin world. RobSTrump 2Q2Q 15:34, 1 August 2020 (EDT)

No. Purgatory doesn't exist. The concept of purgatory is unbiblical

  • John 5:4 - Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.[9]

Note: Eternal life begins now, present tense. Now is the day of salvation.[10] Most importantly for the Christian believer, salvation means being saved from judgement. No Christian believer who has been spiritually born - passed from death to life - shall come into judgement. Judgement is reserved only for sinners who are already condemned.[11]

  • John 3:18 - Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

Sinners go straight to hell. There is no pit stop in Purgatory before Judgement, and no hope of sharing eternal life with God. Hence. we can see from these words of Jesus alone, that Roman Catholic doctrine does not preach the good news of salvation from the scripture.

User:RobSmith

The non-biblical teaching of a "Purgatory" rejects the sufficiency of Christ's blood sacrifice to purge all sin.[12] Denying the sufficiency of Christ's blood is tantamount to denying the divinity of Christ.[13]

Furthermore, the Bible teaches for the believer,

To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.[14]

There is no middle phase of purgation. Jesus told the thief on the cross,

This day thou shalt be with me in Paradise.[15]

The thief did not undergo any last communion or extreme unction.

The Debate question itself is absurd and exposes errant doctrine; salvation means to be saved from judgement. Only lost sinners shall face judgement and the wrath of God. The Debate question itself exposes the fact that the Roman Catholic church and Roman Catholic gospel do not preach salvation.

Challenge for RobS:

Interpret this passage from Hebrews, 10:26-31, about the dangers of apostasy. Do these consequences always take place while on this present earth?
"If, after we have been given knowledge of the truth, we should deliberately commit any sins, then there is no longer any sacrifice for them. There will be left only the dreadful prospect of judgement and of the raging fire that is to burn rebels (Isaiah 26:11). Anyone who disregards the Law of Moses is ruthlessly put to death on the word of two witnesses or three (Deut. 17:6); and you may be sure that anyone who tramples on the Son of God, and who treats the blood of the covenant which sanctified him as if it were not holy, and who insults the Spirit of grace, will be condemned to a far severer punishment. We are all aware who it was that said: Vengeance is mine; I will repay (Deut. 32:35-36). And again: The Lord will judge his people. It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God."
VargasMilan (talk) Friday, 23:30, 24 July 2020 (EDT)
You've selected one of the most difficult passages of the Christian gospel to interpret. On the face of it, verses 26 apparently put's to rest the notion of once saved, always saved. Verse 27 apparently speaks of the present earth, in the flesh of a believer; this may be the most revealing part of the passage. It may be possible for a person to be saved by grace, yet have no joy in it, a reversion back to being a carnal believer. This reopens the question of whether "carnal Christians" are Christians at all. And also the question if the Holy Spirit - the Spirit without measure - can be taken away. It somewhat describes Solomon in his old age, yet this book is one of the most important books of the new covenant.
Verse 28 then speaks of law, not grace, so again the doctrine of OSAS is called into question. But verses 29, 30, and 31, particularly beginning with "anyone who tramples on the Son of God, and who treats the blood of the covenant which sanctified him as if it were not holy" onward, IMO, explicitly condemns the promulgators of the doctrine of Purgatory, and other teachers since who willfully ignore the Word of God. The language sounds as if it is directly addressed to church teachers, and not necessarily just at lowly believers with poor judgement and understanding.
What I'm saying here is, the teachers of the doctrine of Purgatory will be held to account in manner more harshly than just someone who receives it as doctrine. Other scriptures support this position. RobSTrump 2Q2Q 00:14, 25 July 2020 (EDT)
This will take some more reflective thought on my part, more reflection and more thought; nobody can say you didn't take the bull by the horns. VargasMilan (talk) Saturday, 00:26, 25 July 2020 (EDT)
Me too. Actually, I've been reflecting on it for about 35 years already. But just now, reading the translation you provided, all 5 verses could be talking about someone who has "been given knowledge of the truth", yet never "received" it the spiritual sense. Someone who heard the "knowledge of the truth", and rejected it from the gitgo out of a rebellious heart or spirit. There's really no way to take the same message of God's mercy and grace and re-package it to make it more appealing. Then all of it makes sense. Me, and many others, I think have always broken these 5 verses down into two or three clauses discussing law and grace, spirit baptism, etc. I may have to look at these verses again in a few other translations and see if what I see now appears there. RobSTrump 2Q2Q 00:42, 25 July 2020 (EDT)


IOWs, these verses don't talk about someone who has "tasted the good word of God" as in chapter 6. I don't know. I'll have to look closer. RobSTrump 2Q2Q 00:50, 25 July 2020 (EDT)

Purgatory is a doctrine of wrath, not grace

In addition to denying the sufficiency of Christ's blood and divinity of Christ, Purgatory further negates the good news of the Gospel of grace and turns God's word into a Gospel of Wrath.

The Roman Catholic Church does not preach a Gospel of Grace. In fact, beginning very early in life, the Roman church hammers a doctrine of Judgement into a child's head. Children are taught all will face Judgement on a Judgment Day. This is apparent from how this Debate Question is phrased. This doctrine of Judgement and God's wrath obscures the doctrine of salvation.

Salvation is in this life, and continues into the next; Roman doctrine teaches salvation is to be pursued in an after life. "Eternal life" is viewed entirely in fleshly or carnal terms - it begins after the death of the flesh. This is a non-biblical doctrine. Eternal life is available to anyone right now, and is guaranteed after the death of the flesh.

It is for this cause that Roman Catholics, particularly those fed on Roman doctrine early in life, have such difficulty understanding salvation. It is something far off and inaccessible in this life. Purgatory is one more obstacle to finally reaching Roman catholic perception of salvation. In fact, the bible teaches us salvation means being spared God's wrath and Judgement. Only sinners face Judgment. Those under the blood (When I see the blood, I will passover) are saved. Purgatory convinces you that you are a sinner who will die in sin and face Judgement. The doctrine of Purgatory is an anti-Gospel. It is anti-God's grace and mercy. RobSTrump 2Q2Q 22:20, 28 July 2020 (EDT)

Inquiry for comment on historical basis: Apocrypha

Premises for purgatory seem to appear in the Apocrypha. Of course, this is before the Good News about the Resurrection.

II Maccabees, 12:43-46 (The sacrifice for the fallen), "[A]fter this he took a collection from them individually, amounting to nearly two thousand drachmae, and sent it to Jerusalem to have a sacrifice for sin offered, an altogether fine and noble action, in which he took full account of the resurrection. For if he had not expected the fallen to rise again it would have been superfluous and foolish to pray for the dead, whereas if he had in view the splendid recompense reserved for those who make a pious end, the thought was holy and devout. This was why he had this atonement sacrifice offered for the dead, so that they might be released from their sin."

VargasMilan (talk) Saturday, 11:32, 25 July 2020 (EDT)

It appears in these verses that money, not the blood of Christ is offered for atonement - a pretty Satanic idea. What? Do you (rhetorically speaking) think you can bribe God? RobSTrump 2Q2Q 17:44, 25 July 2020 (EDT)
Hey! The money for the sin offering was to pay for sacrificial animals! Are you trying to give me a hard time? VargasMilan (talk) Saturday, 20:45, 25 July 2020 (EDT)
Oh, so the blood of barnyard animals is of equal value to the blood of Jesus Christ. What are you trying to do, push Roman Catholic doctrine on me now? RobSTrump 2Q2Q 20:52, 25 July 2020 (EDT)
What I got out of it was that historically, it was a doctrine that existed, so at least, which might not amount much to you given your recent comments, the Catholics didn't make it up out of whole cloth.
"When all sins have been forgiven, there can be no more sin offerings."—Hebrews 10:18.
VargasMilan (talk) Saturday, 21:00, 25 July 2020 (EDT)

Christ died once for all

The Bible teaches,

  • 1 Peter 3:18: For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit,
  • Romans 6:10: For the death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God.

The Roman church teaches a false doctrine that the believer sins, confesses, receives communion, is restored to grace, sins, confesses, receives communion, is restored grace, rinse, wash, repeat throughout their entire life. If the sinner gets hit by a bus crossing the street on his way to confession for his latest sins, or gets hit by a bus between his last confession and on the way to communion, too bad, you may or may not be saved and will have to do a stretch in Purgatory. This teaching is beyond ludicrous; it caricatures God as wrathful and not full of abundant mercy and grace. It is truly Satanic, denying the mercy and grace of God, the divine nature of Jesus' holy blood, the purpose of Jesus' sacrifice, if not the divinity of Christ himself. It flatly denies the Gospel of Grace and scripture itself. The Roman church teaches that it has "authority" above the Word of God.

And the Roman church attempts to deceive you by perverting and misusing the Word of God. The simple fact remains - the Roman church rejects God's Word in favor of its own decrees and perverts the scripture when it uses it.

Yes, "he brings us to God" either directly to heaven or through the purifying purge of purgatory and into heaven. It is Christ in any case who brings us to God. Those in purgatory are already saved. Those in purgatory are guaranteed of going to heaven and being brought by Christ to God.
You badly misrepresent the Church's teaching on confession. She teaches that if you confess your sins he is faithful and just to forgive you your sins. Not only that, but the very intention of going to confession and not making it because of death from being hit by a bus, is sufficient for God to absolve those sins the poor shmuck intended to confess. He is not willing that any should perish. Refer to "Baptism of desire". It applies also to confession, when the intention to confess was unavoidably made impossible. Man looks on the outward appearance, but God looks on the heart. --IndependentSkeptic (talk) 14:57, 26 July 2020 (EDT)

[promoted by VM] Of course God didn't put the "baptism of desire" loophole there, man did. In the sales profession we say there are only two motivating factors to get people to part with their money - fear and greed. In biblical matters, none of this applies. The Roman church however teaches if you confess to a priest, and toss a nickel in the bucket for penance, you are half way back to God's abundant saving grace. However, Christian believers have a great high priest with access to the Father; we don't need a man - a sinner - to absolve us. RobSTrump 2Q2Q 15:05, 26 July 2020 (EDT)

It is through the High Priest Christ Jesus that the Catholic and Orthodox priests absolve sins in his name, not in their own name by their own authority, but by his own established authority alone in his body the church. "Where two or three are gathered (the priest and the confessant) there am I among them." Jesus absolves through the ministry of reconciliation he entrusted to them 2 Corinthians 5:18-20. "Listen to the church", "he who has ears let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches". The ancient churches east and west have always taught the baptism of desire. They "received it, not as the word of man, but as it really is, the word of God." "Listen to the church". --IndependentSkeptic (talk) 15:17, 26 July 2020 (EDT)
And you yourself in these postings deny that God has removed our sins as far as the east is from the west; you claim God only takes it so far, and the sinner has to do the rest himself in Purgatory. RobSTrump 2Q2Q 15:23, 26 July 2020 (EDT)
The fatal death-dealing disease is removed as far as the east is from the west, but the patient being cured must endure a period of recovery from the leftover effects of the disease. If the patient foolishly contracts a minor strain of the disease again by careless exposure to it the cure is applied again, and recovery is faster. But if the recovered patient deliberately defies the doctor, the tragedy of death is almost guaranteed (Hebrews 6:4-8), unless the more vigorous effort of reapplying the one infallible cure is made to effect a healing which the chief physician has prescribed ("the ministry of reconciliation"). It is still Christ who does it to the soul through the ministry of his body, the church. --IndependentSkeptic (talk) 16:09, 26 July 2020 (EDT)
[Promoted by VM] No scripture there, I see. When will you stop spinning your wheels claiming that you believe the Bible and then turn around and deny it? RobSTrump 2Q2Q 16:37, 26 July 2020 (EDT)
And your latest kick, "Listen to the church", is about as big a perversion of the scripture you have engaged in. Nowhere are believers commanded to "listen to the church"; the church is told to hear what the Spirit says to the church, which you obviously have never done. RobSTrump 2Q2Q 16:48, 26 July 2020 (EDT)
"Nowhere are believers commanded to 'listen to the church'?"
The Bible commands believers to listen to the church.
Matthew 16:18-19; 18:17-18; Acts 20:28-31; Romans 13:1-1; 1 Corinthians 12:4-30; 2 Corinthians 5:18-20; 2 Thessalonians 2:15; 1 Timothy 3:14-15; Titus 3:10-11; Hebrews 13:17; 1 Peter 2:13-17; 5:1-6; 2 Peter 1:19–2:4; 3:14-18; 1 John 2:18-19; 2 John 9-12; 3 John 13-14; Jude 8-23; Revelation 2:7,11,17,26; 3:6,13,22.
These have always been my answer to anyone who challenges me as a former Conservative Baptist Bible Christian to show where in the Bible are written the doctrines of the Catholic Church. These passages (and more) are why Dataclarifier became a Catholic Bible-apologist, and why, from what he showed me, I too believed what the Bible says and "listened to the Church" and embraced the Catholic Church as the pillar and foundation of the truth, including all of its dogmas which include the dogma of purgatory and regenerative baptism and confession of sins for absolution by priests to whom the ministry of reconciliation has been entrusted and the power to reject "an heretick". Nowhere does the Bible promise that the leaders of the Church will lead impeccably holy lives totally free of sin, only that the doctrine will always be true, by the Holy Spirit with us forever, leading into all truth. It does promise that signs and wonders and miracles will accompany those who believe, Mark 16:15-18. That has been true from the first Christian century to now. Not everyone has that gift of miracles (1 Corinthians 12:29-30), but as one body of Christ the Catholic Church has always had that witness from then to this present day. Historically the Protestant Reformers had no such evidence of credibility from God as evidence to show the divine approval of their mission. So much for sola scriptura. By sola scriptura by itself division is sown. With authorized authority unity is maintained. "Listen to the church" "Listen to the churches" "Obey the elders who have the rule over you"—the Protestant Reformers didn't. Neither do you. It's as simple as that. It's because of the Bible that I firmly believe that the Catholic Church teaches the truth of the Doctrine of Christ.
Nuff said. --IndependentSkeptic (talk) 17:41, 26 July 2020 (EDT)
[promoted by VM] The first problem you have is you do not understand salvation. Only people who reject Christ will face Judgement Day. Read the Debate question. RobSTrump 2Q2Q 18:45, 26 July 2020 (EDT)
If you are born in the spirit as Jesus says (ye must be born again), there is no Judgement Day and there is no Purgatory. RobSTrump 2Q2Q 18:47, 26 July 2020 (EDT)
I asked Dataclarifier what proofs he had from scripture that led him as a fundamental Bible believer to know the Catholic Church had to be the one true Church.
He said Matthew 16:18; John 14:16-17 and 16:13; Hebrews 13:17; 1 John 2:18-19; and Galatians 1:6-9. "I will build my church and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it"; "I will pray the Father, and he will give you another Counselor, to be with you for ever. even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him; you know him, for he dwells with you, and will be in you"; "When the Spirit comes, he will guide you into all truth"; "Obey your leaders and submit to them; for they are keeping watch over your souls, as men who will have to give account"; "even now there are many antichrists" (so he said he stopped worrying about who was the antichrist)—"they went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out, that it might be plain that they all are not of us"; "I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and turning to a different gospel—not that there is another gospel, but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to that which we preached to you, let him be accursed. As we have said before, so now I say again, If any one is preaching to you a gospel contrary to that which you received, let him be accursed".
He said, "I looked for a church that was not founded by someone who disobeyed those who were over him in the Lord, who went out from the church, and taught a doctrine different from the church he left. According to all the history I found, the only one that qualified, was the Catholic Church. The Orthodox Churches had acknowledged that Constantinople was first in dignity AFTER Rome. That has to do with authority. So there was only one logical conclusion. All the others had refused to accept her authority and disobediently departed from the Roman Catholic Church and taught a different doctrine. So the Catholic Church had to be the one. And therefore whatever the Roman Catholic Church taught as doctrine had to be guaranteed to be the truth. When I compared what the early church fathers taught with the Bible, there was no real conflict. They based all their teachings on what is in the Bible and what the disciples of the apostles had traditionally taught and handed down as their interpretation of the Bible, led by the Spirit of truth—forever. Therefore the Protestant Reformers were wrong, according to the Bible and the testimony of history. It turned out that all of the Protestants who join the Catholic Church have come to the same conclusion, and for the same reasons. It's like a mathematical formula, all based on the Bible. The Catholic Church was not founded by those who disobeyed those over them and went out and taught a different doctrine."
I gotta admit, the sheer simplicity of Dataclarifier's reasoning is brilliant! (He says he can't take credit for it—it's in the Bible.) I came up with 20 Bible references. He had basically only THREE! Whatever the authority of the Catholic Church teaches dogmatically as the Doctrine of Christ must be true, or Jesus broke his promises Matthew 16:18; John 14:16-17; 16:13; together with 1 John 2:18-19. It turns out that all adult converts to the Catholic Church have come to the same biblical conclusion: the invincibly incorruptible divine authority of the one undivided Church, true salvation by the gift of eternal life and removal of sins through the washing of regenerative water baptism, the partaking of the divine nature of God in the eucharist of Christ's body and blood as food for eternal life, confession and absolution of sins, the sacraments of confirmation, anointing of the sick, monogamous marriage, no divorce allowed, the priesthood, the canon of the whole Catholic Bible (73 books), the magisterium, sacred tradition not of man handed down from the apostles, apostolic succession, purgatory, miracles, the intercession of saints, the perpetual virginity of Mary, the rosary, papal primacy—all guaranteed by the promises of the Lord Jesus Christ in the Bible.
You can't go wrong with that! May God give you light to see it. --IndependentSkeptic (talk) 21:07, 26 July 2020 (EDT)
Big deal; Dataclarifier is not the first human being to be deceived. You've all tossed God and the Bible overboard to worship an institution and doctrines made up and governed by men. Ye shall know the Truth, and the Truth shall set you free.
Luke 4:8: And Jesus answered him, “It is written, “‘You shall worship the Lord your God, and him only shall you serve.’”
and all you guys ever say is "church church church church" and "church authority." You have the Bible in your lap; read that and toss out all that excess Roman church junk. RobSTrump 2Q2Q 21:35, 26 July 2020 (EDT)
[promoted by VM] We did read it. We still read it. The Bible as the infallible word of God is what led us to acknowledge the complete worship of the one true God who divinely established the church firmly on a rock to lead us all infallibly into all truth so that we know the truth that sets us free from sin and away from false religion to worship the one Lord our God, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, and serve only him in spirit and in truth in the way that he himself ordained, in and through the church as the holy dwelling place of his Spirit and the household of God, the pillar and ground of the truth, that he purchased for himself with his blood as his body and his bride and appointed elders as shepherds to feed the whole flock of his people. There is salvation in no other. The Bible as the inspired infallible word of God supports the teaching authority of the Church and her doctrine and sacraments as the guarantee of salvation in Jesus Christ alone by the power of his blood and the truth of his doctrine. The Church preserved the Bible and serves it. Without the Church you wouldn't even have a Bible. --IndependentSkeptic (talk) 22:17, 26 July 2020 (EDT)
Bzzzt. Wrong. You were doing good up to this point: "the church as the holy dwelling place of his Spirit". The Holy Spirit of God dwells in the individual believers. The believers in fellowship with one another bring the Holy Spirit into a church. You got it bass-ackwards. You think somehow the church imparts the Holy Spirit to members. The church is not God. RobSTrump 2Q2Q 23:09, 26 July 2020 (EDT)
You've fallen into a trap. You're not seeking God or salvation, you are seeking "the one true church", in your own words which you repeat often.
In the beginning was the Word.... is all the authority you or I need to interpret the scriptures. You don't need, and God never intended, someone else to do it for you. RobSTrump 2Q2Q 23:29, 26 July 2020 (EDT)
Let's talk about miracles for a moment. A miracle is not pulling a rabbit out of your hat. A miracle is imparting the words of salvation to a non-believer and lost sinner, and bringing them to Christ. A miracle is getting up at 4:00 in the morning (which I've done) to feed the homeless when it's 10 degrees outside. A miracle is visiting those in prison. I'd never do these things on my own or for my own benefit. The only reason I can come up with is, because God told me to do it, and it's a miracle that I obeyed. I've witnessed these miracles and those with hungry bellies, or lonely and lost in jail, will attest to it, as well. RobSTrump 2Q2Q 23:42, 26 July 2020 (EDT)
A miracle is a visible act of God that cannot be explained normally and scientifically that points unmistakably to the reality of God: raising the dead, healing the incurably sick and the maimed who could not otherwise be made whole, giving sight to the blind, hearing to the deaf, speech to the mute, sudden new restoration of healthy limbs replacing those that were amputated or lost by accident or surgery or disease (legs, arms), weapons of violence suddenly rendered inoperative in attacks on believers, sudden multiplication of food, all other documented cases of otherwise unexplainable good physical benefits that have occurred beyond any doubt of their reality. Who have you physically healed in this way by the power of God? I belong to a unified Catholic Church indwelt by the Holy Spirit forever leading into all truth that heals by the power of God, from the first century to the present day.
You say "In the beginning was the Word... is all the authority you or I need to interpret the scriptures." If that was true, then the Bible could be made to seem to say or justify anything anyone wants (Cafeteria Christianity), "because the Bible says so". The New Testament warns that the scriptures can be distorted and misused by unstable and ignorant persons to their own destruction (2 Peter 3:15-18). Qualified teachers and interpreters are necessary, and not all are teachers (1 Corinthians 12:28). Take a look at the article sola spiritu. The One Holy Spirit of truth could not produce the conflicting doctrines of the differing Protestant churches and individuals who say they only need the Bible, whose multiple interpretations of scripture conflict and contradict, but the Holy Spirit according to the promise of Christ guides a unified understanding of the meaning of the scriptures through "faithful men who will be able to teach others also" (2 Timothy 2:2). That's why the Bible says to "Obey those who have the rule over you and submit to them; for they are keeping watch over your souls" Hebrews 13:17.
It is not the individual believers who bring the Holy Spirit into the Church, but the one body of the whole Church itself since the day of Pentecost is the permanent dwelling place and temple of the Holy Spirit Who is given to the members of the one body of Christ as individuals for the benefit of all the whole body (1 Corinthians 12:4-30).
Ephesians 2:19-22; 4:4-5 "in whom the whole structure is joined together and grows into a holy temple in the Lord; in whom you also are built into it for a dwelling place (not places) of God in the Spirit"
1 Corinthians 3:16-17 "Do you not know that you (collective plural "you") are God's temple and that God's Spirit dwells in you (collective plural "you") ?; 6:17,19-20 v.17 "but he who is united to the Lord becomes one Spirit with him"
2 Corinthians 3:18; 6:16
Colossians 1:18-19
John 14:17 "even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him; you (collective plural "you") know him, for he dwells with you (collective plural "you"), and will be in you (collective plural "you")."
Revelation 11:1 "Rise and measure the temple of God and the altar and those who worship there".
Hebrews 3:6; 12:22-24 v.3:6 "Christ was faithful over God's house as a son. And we are his house (not houses) if we hold fast our confidence and pride in our hope"—"But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, and to the assembly of the first-born who are enrolled in heaven, and to a judge who is God of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks more graciously than the blood of Abel. See that you do not refuse him who is speaking. For if they did not escape when they refused him who warned them on earth, much less shall we escape if we reject him who warns from heaven."
1 Timothy 3:15 "if I am delayed, you may know how one ought to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth."
1 Peter 2:5 "and like living stones be yourselves built into a spiritual house (not houses), to be a holy priesthood, to offer spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ."
--IndependentSkeptic (talk) 03:26, 27 July 2020 (EDT)
See this article The Church - The Dwelling Place of God --IndependentSkeptic (talk) 03:29, 27 July 2020 (EDT)
Bingo. That's what I just said. "A miracle is a visible act of God that cannot be explained normally and scientifically" like me getting up 4:00 AM in the dead of January to feed the homeless. The rest of your post (TLDR) seems to be back on your "true church" kick.
Bottomline: You cannot defend your Satanic doctrine of Purgatory from the Bible. Your only defense is the "The Roman Church said it, I believe it." God says your Purgatory doctrine is a lie of Satan. RobSTrump 2Q2Q 08:29, 27 July 2020 (EDT)
None of the scriptures you cite refute what I said, "The believers in fellowship with one another bring the Holy Spirit into a church." And you have provided no scriptural evidence to support your allusion (paraphrasing myself) "the church imparts the Holy Spirit". That's your big flaw. God gives the Holy Spirit to individual believers. The church is not God. RobSTrump 2Q2Q 09:38, 27 July 2020 (EDT)

Nice proofs from Independent Skeptic. That the Church in every age has prayed for the faithful departed is a sufficient proof of Purgatory. In Maccabees, we read even the Jewish people before Christ's Incarnation did the same. In the Fifth Proof, I showed above that St. Paul also did. NishantXavierFor Christ the King 06:28, 27 July 2020 (EDT)

Your Maccabees quote denies the blood of Christ and says God can be bribed. That's Satanic. RobSTrump 2Q2Q 08:33, 27 July 2020 (EDT)
But... VargasMilan (talk) Monday, 11:41, 27 July 2020 (EDT)
Can the faithful be unrepentant?
The rule of Blessèd Benedict prescribes a step-wise approach to repentance. This somehow seems less miraculous than all at once. On the other hand there are step-wise models for charity, other virtues and evangelism by Jesus and others in other parts of the New Testament. And the devotée does choose an approach (a drawing nearer).
I can think of one where steps seem to be implied. First the illness (John 8:34-35):
I tell you most solemnly,
everyone who commits sin is a slave.
Now the slave's place in the house is not assured,
but the son's place is assured.
So if the Son makes you free,
you will be free indeed.
Therefore Jesus seems to imply a remedy, depending on what you expect (Luke 17:7-10):
Which of you, with a servant ploughing or minding sheep, would say to him when he returned from the fields, "Come and have your meal immediately"? Would he not be more likely to say, "Get my supper laid; make yourself tidy and wait on me while I eat and drink. You can eat and drink yourself afterwards"? Must he be grateful to the servant for doing what he was told? So with you: when you have done all you have been told to do, say, "We are merely servants: we have done no more than our duty."
And the Holy Apostle (Romans 6:17-19):
You were once slaves of sin, but thank God you submitted without reservation to the creed you were taught. You may have been freed from the slavery of sin, but only to become "slaves" of righteousness. If I may use human terms to help your natural weakness: as once you put your bodies at the service of vice and immorality, so now you must put them at the service of righteousness for your sanctification.
So what happens to the vice in the form of habits of the soul? Does some of it go away immediately and some of it remain potentially? What if you can't name it? Can we be dead to a sin we can't identify? This seems to demand not only humility but hope as well. Otherwise, is this an act by sin, if sin were like a person, able to place us in a wash, rinse, repeat situation?
If you are a slave to doing what God requires is it like an apprenticeship or even like a lifetime learning experience? In Hebrews 3:14, "We shall remain co-heirs with Christ only if we keep a grasp on our first confidence right to the end."
I need a new word. Maybe the faithful to Christ's Passion and promise can be non-repentant only until we see our hope as needing to and able to incorporate another fold of our faith. Then a choice approaches. If we don't choose does it pass on to our next lifetime?
VargasMilan (talk) Monday, 07:17, 27 July 2020 (EDT)
Christian walks
Wow. did you ever open up a can of worms. Paul says, I beat my body black and blue and bring it under subjection so yes, it is an ongoing process.
I'm going to try to answer two questions here. I/S and Dataclarifier are hung up over the role of the church. You're asking about the narrow path. And the Cafeteria Christianity article has similar problems involving both these questions. We must recognize that a person's Christian walk is unique. Being a Christian is a process of growth. We begin as babes in Christ; some, if not most, begin as carnal, awaiting the Holy Spirit. Some never progress beyond being babes in Christ or still yet carnal. God's design is for us to move Onward, to perfection. So the scripture can have different meanings and be understood differently to the same person over time; likewise it can be understood differently by different people at the same time, depending on their position and walk with Christ. I planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the increase. One role of the church is for believers at different points in their walk with Christ is to share their experiences with others in fellowship to help bring them to perfection or maturity. Hence the importance of trying the spirits.
I/S and DC's basic argument is for a one size fits all, non-biblically based doctrine. It doesn't work - except for those who are permanently labeled "carnal" Christians. It inhibits, if not outright discourages, their spiritual growth as believers.
Back to VM's question: the Word is a seed, going back to Isaiah, So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please. This is echoed by Jesus, A sower went out to sow seed.... DC and I/S couldn't be more wrong, the seed or word of God is received differently by different people depending on their maturity. The Roman Catholic faith has attempted to standardize the word by ignoring the teaching of the word in churches, replacing the word of God with man made church doctrine. RobSTrump 2Q2Q 09:17, 27 July 2020 (EDT)
It's difficult to address Nishant's claim of Purgatory based on 1 Corinthian's chapter 3, because that chapter is addressed to carnal Christians, i.e. those who are not "spiritually born" as Jesus commanded in John chapter 3. A carnal believer who tries to build a spiritual doctrine is fatally flawed. He has to receive spiritual baptism first, then we can discuss 1 Corinthians chapter 3.
So how do carnal Roman believers address this problem? They load up on non-biblical doctrine such as the book of Maccabees which denies the blood and divinity of Christ completely and says God is a pimp who can be bought. In their spiritual blindness they dig a pit deeper for themselves by misleading others. RobSTrump 2Q2Q 09:49, 27 July 2020 (EDT)
The word of God is a seed:
1 PETER 1:23 NKJV: having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever,
If you haven't been born again, the seed has not taken root. The Roman church does not sow the seed, it sows church doctrine, as is readily apparent in these discussions. The Roman church doctrine strangles the seed.
Luke 8:7: And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprang up with it, and choked it.
RobSTrump 2Q2Q 11:47, 27 July 2020 (EDT)
  • The Church Jesus built on a Rock cannot be overcome by Satan: "the gates of hell shall not prevail against it" Matthew 16:18.
  • The Church has the keys of the kingdom of heaven with the authority to bind and to loosen: "whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven" Matthew 16:19; 18:18
  • The Holy Spirit is with the Church for ever, leading into all truth: "to be with you forever, even the Spirit of truth...he will guide you into all the truth" John 14:16-17; 16:13
  • Obedience to the leaders who rule is commanded: "Obey your leaders and submit to them; for they are keeping watch over your souls" Hebrews 13:17
  • Those who left the Church are antichrist because they are not of the Church: "even now many antichrists have come...They went out from us, but they were not of us" 1 John 2:18-19
  • The antichrists set up divisions, they reject authority, revile the saints and angels, and are devoid of the Spirit: "defile the flesh, reject authority, and revile the glorious ones...scoffers, following their own ungodly passions. It is these who set up divisions, worldly people, devoid of the Spirit" Jude 8,18-19
    --Dataclarifier (talk) 12:54, 27 July 2020 (EDT)

Christ died once for all (cont'd)

This must be a misunderstanding. The sacrifice described has a misleadingly vague name, like "original sin" does (it's not in the Bible as far as I know, and it describes vice not sin), or "electro-motive force" (describes energy not force). A sin offering was only for inadvertent mistakes made in performance of rituals, or "ritual faults". VargasMilan (talk) Monday, 12:29, 27 July 2020 (EDT)
But thank you for your response above to my inquiry. I am applying my attention to it. VargasMilan (talk) Monday, 12:33, 27 July 2020 (EDT)
"Original sin" is basically what Augustine describes - pride. Pride is thinking you're something you're not, like Satan thinking he was God and rebelling against him. Pride is rejecting God and God's word, like the prodigal son, and thinking you can find your own way in life without God's guidance, like Adam and Eve.
Satan said I will exalt myself; Jesus said Not my will but Thy will.
Proverbs 6:16-17: 16 These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him: and No.1 on the list is: 17 A proud look.
Absalom, like Satan, wanted to appoint himself King, and was tossed into a bottomless pit. Pride is worshipping and serving the creature more than the Creator. Teachers like Augustine thumbnailed this teaching by labeling it "original sin". To clarify further, the original sin began with Lucifer, and not with Adam and Eve. Adam and Eve joined the creature's rebellion against the Creator. RobSTrump 2Q2Q 13:34, 27 July 2020 (EDT)
A final word: the Roman Church is prideful - it abandons God's word because it thinks it knows better than God what is necessary for salvation. RobSTrump 2Q2Q 13:06, 27 July 2020 (EDT)
Thank you for this informative digression. VargasMilan (talk) Wednesday, 00:26, 29 July 2020 (EDT)
And thank you for adding context to the Book of Maccabees. I perused it once many years ago, and it wasn't even over the issue of Purgatory, it was over background material on the sect of Zealots if I recall. While some commentaries call zealots 'terrorists' in the Western Roman sense, warriors in the Hebrew idiom makes more sense. Today they'd probably be called a national liberation movement. RobSTrump 2Q2Q 09:27, 30 July 2020 (EDT)
Christian walk 1
"upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it" Matthew 16:18. The Church defends the Bible as the word of God. The Holy Spirit is with the Church for ever leading into all truth. All of the Church's dogmatic teachings are true. --Dataclarifier (talk) 13:27, 27 July 2020 (EDT)
[Promoted by VM] DC, you're getting redundant again, and thus far you haven't been able to shed any light on scripture without bringing in non-scriptural evidence. Try to stick to the subject under discussion. We're discussing Purgatory. Purgatory refutes the Gospel of Grace and the divinity of Christ. You're only response is, "but that is what the Roman Catholic Church teaches", to which we evidently are in agreement then. RobSTrump 2Q2Q 13:34, 27 July 2020 (EDT)
Matthew 16:18 is scriptural evidence. So is this: "the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth" 1 Timothy 3:15 "the household of God, built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, in whom the whole structure is joined together and grows into a holy temple in the Lord" Ephesians 2:19-21 "the gates of hell shall not prevail against it" --Dataclarifier (talk) 14:18, 27 July 2020 (EDT)
The topic is purgatory, taught as truth by the pillar and bulwark of the truth, the church of the living God. --Dataclarifier (talk) 14:21, 27 July 2020 (EDT)
"And we have the prophetic word made more sure. You will do well to pay attention to this as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts. First of all you must understand this, that no prophecy of scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation, because no prophecy ever came by the impulse of man, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God." 2 Peter 1:19-21 "which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other scriptures. You, therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, beware lest you be carried away with the error of lawless men and lose your own stability." 1 Peter 3:16-17 --Dataclarifier (talk) 14:41, 27 July 2020 (EDT)
This cracks me up! a bunch of made-up weird stuff that makes me want to lobotomize myself with a pair of rusty hedge clippers. RobSTrump 2Q2Q 13:50, 27 July 2020 (EDT)

Christ died once for all, part 3 and Christian walk 2

Okay. The sin was for inadvertent ritual faults, including outside the temple, that the warriors committed because they died before they were able to make a sin offering.
Martin Luther didn't like this book, but these verses seem to deserve commendation rather than censure, all things being equal, because the writer said they hoped in a resurrection of the dead!
Jesus said the patriarchs were alive, but they weren't living on earth, apparently, so these verses don't do too badly, do they? VargasMilan (talk) Monday, 14:09, 27 July 2020 (EDT)
Man, you got a habit of throwing a nasty breaking slider pitch, but I don't think I've struck out yet. I'm going to revert back to what I said about carnality (and this ties in somewhat with I/S/ doctrine of "baptism of intent" or whatever they call it).
Clearly Paul speaks of people who are yet carnal sitting in Christian church pews. Most Protestant teachers and preachers I've encountered call them "carnal Christians" which sounds like an oxymoron. This goes to the heart of what I think you mean by the faithful being unrepentant. Here I turn to 1 Corinthians 15, of which so much can be said in this discussion. (Verses 1 & 2 read, Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; 2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. Is this what you mean by the faithful being unrepentant? If so, they likely can't be considered "the faithful".)
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: {ye must be born again)...

44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body....

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
Verse 52 is usually taught as some future event, but I can't say so definitely from context. It may be speaking of baptism of the Holy Spirit. RobSTrump 2Q2Q 14:56, 27 July 2020 (EDT)
Why do I say 1 Cor. 15:52 may not be speaking of the same events as in 1 Thes. 4:16 ("For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.")? Compare these two verses side-by-side:
Romans 6:6: - Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
1 Corinthians 15:44: - It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
RobSTrump 2Q2Q 15:11, 27 July 2020 (EDT)
(ec) We shall be changed in the twinkling of an eye. That sure sounds like spirit baptism to me. And I couldn't even tell you when it happened to me, just that it did happen. And I've known and seen others as well that got off the road to destruction and became spirit filled believers. At some point in the twinkling of an eye they reversed course. And many of them as well can't put their finger on the moment in time it happened, but it did happen. RobSTrump 2Q2Q 15:22, 27 July 2020 (EDT)
Interpreting Scripture on purgatory
[promoted by VM] We have cited 2 Maccabees 12:45; 1 Corinthians 3:12-15; Matthew 16:18; 18:17-18; John 14:16-17; 16:13; Romans 13:1-2; Ephesians 2:19-21; 1 Timothy 3:15; Titus 3:10-11; Hebrews 13:17; 1 Peter 3:13-17; 1 Peter 5:5-6; 2 Peter 1:19-21 and 2 Peter 3:16-17; 1 John 2:18-19; Jude 8,18-19 and Revelation 2 and 3 and Revelation 22:18-19.
This 'is scriptural evidence for the biblical doctrine of purgatory: the doctrine is not of Satan. The teaching of the Bible is clear about the infallible Church having the established authority of God as an institution to teach the biblical doctrine of purgatory: the Bible is true: the word of the Lord is the law of the Lord. Listen to the word of the Lord: listen to the church: listen to what the Spirit says to the churches. "If one turns away his ear from hearing the law, even his prayer is an abomination" Proverbs 28:9. That's the teaching of the Bible itself on the authority of the Church as the pillar and bulwark of the truth to teach purgatory as a doctrine of the Bible revealed as truth by God. --Dataclarifier (talk) 15:19, 27 July 2020 (EDT)
No you haven't. When your argument is, "I believe scripture, plus a lot of other stuff", that automatically nullifies your "I believe scripture" statement. You're peeing in the wind. RobSTrump 2Q2Q 15:24, 27 July 2020 (EDT)
Scripture points directly to all the "other stuff" taught by the authority of the doctrine of the Church whatever it teaches, as demonstrated by the scriptures cited above. --Dataclarifier (talk) 15:30, 27 July 2020 (EDT)
So you are not an originalist or strict constructionist. Rather you believe in a living bible. RobSTrump 2Q2Q 19:28, 27 July 2020 (EDT)
"upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it" Matthew 16:18. The Church defends the Bible as the word of God. The Holy Spirit is with the Church for ever leading into all truth. All of the Church's dogmatic teachings are true. You just don't accept the truth of the scriptures. --Dataclarifier (talk) 15:33, 27 July 2020 (EDT)
God says 2 + 2 = 4, and no addendum by God or man can change that. If you really want to have a discussion about the Bible and whatever beliefs you derive from it, you can't bring in extra-biblical material or evidence. This is simple logic. If you think the Bible supports your position, you need to argue better than just Matt 16 & 18 {you've heard the arguments refuting this a thousand times). And you can't bring in non-biblical subjects such as "purgatory", "great commission", "papal authority", etc etc etc. If you cannot do this from scripture, your whole foundation, doctrine, and argument is faulty. RobSTrump 2Q2Q 15:43, 27 July 2020 (EDT)
[Promoted by VM] "Better than" Matthew 16:18, several of us cited 2 Maccabees 12:45; 1 Corinthians 3:12-15; Matthew 16:18; 18:17-18; John 14:16-17; 16:13; Romans 13:1-2; Ephesians 2:19-21; 1 Timothy 3:15; Titus 3:10-11; Hebrews 13:17; 1 Peter 3:13-17; 1 Peter 5:5-6; 2 Peter 1:19-21 and 2 Peter 3:16-17; 1 John 2:18-19; Jude 8,18-19 and Revelation 2 and 3 and Revelation 22:18-19. If Jesus founded one church, not many, and it is the pillar and bulwark or foundation of the truth, as he said, then the teaching of that one church must be the truth, and those who "went out from" the church are antichrist who oppose the doctrines of the truth that Jesus guaranteed to be truth. Purgatory is included in the truth taught by the church he founded as the pillar and bulwark of the truth, along with the doctrine to obey the leadership of the church. It's simple logic. You have to do away with these parts of scripture cited here above to refute what the Bible infallibly says about the church Jesus founded on a rock and about those who will not listen to the church Matthew 18:17-18. The whole foundation, doctrine, and argument is based entirely on the Bible as the word of God, which includes the scriptures cited here above. The Great Commission is in the Bible: Matthew 28:18-20. The infallible church teaches subjects such as "purgatory", "great commission", "papal authority", etc etc etc, guaranteed by the promises of Christ that the gates of hell shall not prevail against it as the pillar and foundation of truth whose leaders we are commanded to obey. --Dataclarifier (talk) 18:18, 27 July 2020 (EDT)
The very fact that anyone sees any kind of necessity to comment on and interpret scripture apart from its clear and plain and simple meaning is proof that sola scriptura is not sufficient. The moment you claim "this is what scripture means" you disprove the Protestant invention of sola scriptura and deny that scripture is all-sufficient. On the very principle RobSmith has repeatedly cited—"scripture alone" sola scriptura, "argue from scripture alone", "prove it from scripture without any additions"—on the basis of that principle alone (which is not in the Bible) he shouldn't have been making any argument or commentary at all. He doesn't rely on scripture alone: he himself adds to the word of God by his own anti-Catholic interpretive commentary. That fact undercuts his argument. It's self-refuting. His own arguments and reasoning and commentary is his own personal addition to the word of God.
Protestants and fundamentalists (I was one of them) who have read for themselves the plain, simple, clear meaning of the scripture by itself—scriptures testifying to the infallibility and truth of the church Jesus established on a rock by his authority, and the fact that those who went out of her do not have the gospel or the Spirit of the Lord—have taken scripture "at its word", plainly, simply and clearly, and joined themselves to the Catholic Church.
It takes reasoning added to the word of God the Bible to insist that these plain verses cited here above do not mean what in fact they say. The gates of hell cannot prevail against the Church the pillar and foundation of truth and defender of the Bible and all that the Bible itself says about the Church. The one church Jesus founded teaches the truth. Others disobeyed their leaders, departed and went out from her and taught a different gospel. All of them added their own doctrines, interpretations. and commentaries to the Bible, invalidating sola scriptura. --Dataclarifier (talk) 18:47, 27 July 2020 (EDT)
Right here. You are not talking about Bible teaching, you are talking about church teaching. And you further seem to draw a distinction between Bible and scripture. In your mind, Bible means "catechism" and "scripture" means "Bible." RobSTrump 2Q2Q 20:23, 27 July 2020 (EDT)
Look at the duplicity of Dataclarifier's argument:
  • "The very fact that anyone sees any kind of necessity to comment on and interpret scripture apart from its clear and plain and simple meaning is proof that sola scriptura is not sufficient.
  • "It takes reasoning added to the word of God the Bible to insist that these plain verses cited here above do not mean what in fact they say."
And of course he tops it off with an ad hominem alleging I'm the anti-Christ. Dataclarifier ceased arguing in good faith a long time ago. RobSTrump 2Q2Q 22:57, 27 July 2020 (EDT)
Where exactly did I explicitly say or allege that RobSmith is the antichrist? I never did. I have ever and always specified what scripture says. Produce the quote that you say says I allege that you are the antichrist. --Dataclarifier (talk) 01:57, 28 July 2020 (EDT)
Why in God's name would you see yourself as the one that scripture identifies with the antichrist? I cited scripture about the antichrist. Why do you think you could possibly qualify in any way with what scripture says about the antichrist? I never said you are the antichrist. --Dataclarifier (talk) 02:08, 28 July 2020 (EDT)
These are the only verses according to Strong's concordance that have the term "antichrist" (King James Version):
  • 1 John 2:18 "Little children, it is the last time: and as ye heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time. 19 They went out from us, but they were not of us"
  • 1 John 2:22 "Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son."
  • 1 John 4:3 "And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come, and even now already is it in the world."
  • 2 John 7 "For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist."
--Dataclarifier (talk) 02:28, 28 July 2020 (EDT)
Look at this link: Bible Verses About Antichrist --Dataclarifier (talk) 02:36, 28 July 2020 (EDT)
RobSmith: In what way have these verses been applied to you personally? What possible reason do you have for thinking that they can, or could ever, apply to you? I don't see it. I have scrolled up and down this page and others. I used the tool "find on page". I didn't find anywhere that I said you are the antichrist. Yet you are absolutely sure that I did. Why? What is it that makes you feel so sure that I did? --Dataclarifier (talk) 03:02, 28 July 2020 (EDT)
  • 1 John 2:22 - Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ?
  • 1 Peter 3:18: - Christ died once for all.
[promoted by VM] Your Purgatory doctrine is the Doctrine of the Anti-Christ. RobSTrump 2Q2Q 07:29, 28 July 2020 (EDT)
  • "The very fact that anyone sees any kind of necessity to comment on and interpret scripture apart from its clear and plain and simple meaning is proof that sola scriptura is not sufficient" - Dataclarifier.
RobSTrump 2Q2Q 07:37, 28 July 2020 (EDT)
  • "It takes reasoning added to the word of God the Bible to insist that these plain verses cited here above do not mean what in fact they say" - Dataclarifier
  • 1 Corinthians 1:19 - For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.
Who you gonna believe, God or your lying eyes? RobSTrump 2Q2Q 07:53, 28 July 2020 (EDT)
I believe the testimony of the word of God in the Bible that the gates of hell shall not prevail against the Church Jesus founded on a rock (Matt 16:18). I believe the testimony of the word of God in the Bible that the Church is the pillar and bulwark of the truth (1 Tim 3:15). I believe the testimony of the word of God in the Bible that the Holy Spirit is with us for ever guiding into all truth (John 14:16-17; 16:13). I believe the testimony of the word of God in the Bible that all authority is from God and whoever resists the authority resists what God has appointed (Rom 13:1-2). I believe the testimony of the word of God in the Bible that we are to obey our leaders who watch over our souls (Heb 13:17). I believe the testimony of the word of God in the Bible that the elders of the church are those who take heed to themselves and all the flock in which the Holy Spirit has made guardians, to feed the Church of the Lord which he purchased with his own blood (Acts 20:17,28). I believe the testimony of the word of God in the Bible that the Church is the household of God (1 Tim 3:15) built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone in whom the whole structure is joined together and grows into a holy temple in the Lord for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit (Eph 2:19-22). I believe the testimony of the word of God in the Bible that whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God (1 John 4:15). The creeds of the Catholic Church confess that Jesus is the Son of God. I'm "gonna believe" God's testimony in the word of God in the Bible. --Dataclarifier (talk) 09:41, 28 July 2020 (EDT)
[Promoted by VM] But you don't believe the divine blood of Jesus was enough to purge your sins, which kinda nullifies the rest of your misinterpreted claims about believing God and his Word. RobSTrump 2Q2Q 09:48, 28 July 2020 (EDT)
I believe 2 Maccabees 12:45; 1 Corinthians 3:12-15 (purging fire); Matthew 16:18; 18:17-18; John 14:16-17; 16:13; Romans 13:1-2; Ephesians 2:19-21; 1 Timothy 3:15; Titus 3:10-11; Hebrews 13:17; 1 Peter 3:13-17; 1 Peter 5:5-6; 2 Peter 1:19-21 and 2 Peter 3:16-17; 1 John 2:18-19; Jude 8,18-19 and Revelation 2 and 3 and Revelation 22:18-19 --Dataclarifier (talk) 09:58, 28 July 2020 (EDT)
[Promoted by VM] You must be a Cafeteria Christian, by your own admission. RobSTrump 2Q2Q 10:06, 28 July 2020 (EDT)
"saved by fire" 1 Cor 3:1-15
Again, where did I ever say you are the antichrist? --Dataclarifier (talk) 10:08, 28 July 2020 (EDT)
I believe all of the Bible, which includes all the verses I cited above. "saved by fire". Again, where did I ever say you are the antichrist? --Dataclarifier (talk) 10:12, 28 July 2020 (EDT)
  • Our God is a consuming fire.
[promoted by VM] Even with 1 Cor. 3:12 you misread the scripture. It says "as by fire" which has a different meaning from "by fire". What a shame to throw your life and salvation away on such nonsense.
You reject the Grace of God and the blood of Jesus. RobSTrump 2Q2Q 10:26, 28 July 2020 (EDT)
It was an accidental typo omission. I mean what the scripture says—all of scripture. Again, where did I ever say you are the antichrist? --Dataclarifier (talk) 10:33, 28 July 2020 (EDT)
[promoted by VM] (ec3x) The blood of Christ is an accidental omission you preach to homeschoolers. Don't tell that to me, explain that to God.
Above you post 1 Cor 3:1-15; did you actually read verse 1-3?
1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.

2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.

3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?
Looks like you forgot these two scriptures:
  • Ye must be born of the spirit
  • To be carnally minded is death.
Are ye not carnal? By your own admission, your understanding of Purgatory is based upon your carnal mind, which you even cite the scripture to support. RobSTrump 2Q2Q 10:44, 28 July 2020 (EDT)
Provide quote, please—where did I ever say you are the antichrist? --Dataclarifier (talk) 10:41, 28 July 2020 (EDT)
RobSmith, you really do need to hear what the Spirit says to the churches and listen to the Church which is the body of Christ built into the temple of God in the Spirit which is the household of God the pillar and bulwark of the truth built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets led into all the truth by the Holy Spirit forever by submitting and obeying the leaders who watch over our souls and elders of the church made guardians to feed the flock the church the Lord purchased with his own blood whose authority is established by God against which the gates of hell shall not prevail.
NishantXavier has provided all the scriptural evidence necessary beginning at the top of this Debate page, and from these same scriptures from the first century to the present day the teaching authority of the one Church Jesus founded on a rock has established the truth of purgatory as divinely revealed by God. --Dataclarifier (talk) 15:18, 28 July 2020 (EDT)
You're being redundant again again again again. You're flowery pious language cannot hide the Satanic message - the blood of Jesus is of no use and a person's blood is upon their own head. I'd pray, "May God have mercy on your soul" for misleading children, but you know what the scripture says,
  • whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a great millstone fastened around his neck and to be drowned in the depth of the sea.
RobSTrump 2Q2Q 15:54, 28 July 2020 (EDT)
Christian walk 2, part 2
My question was a thought experiment. I didn't know what the answer would be when I posed it, but I put the bold lines of ideas together while drawing in bible verses hoping everybody could either add ideas or comprehension that I hadn't or shift minor ideas to look at them in a different perspective than a series of proofs and refutations if they wanted.
It didn't occur to me until the end to come up with a neutral term to describe what might be carried over to the next life, but along the way I remembered your idea about sacraments carrying us about and saw a mirror image of sin doing that too in the form of unstructured problems, so I thought it might be justified.
Such problems are a reality, even if it's not fun to think of landmines being in a person's soul, but for even for the novitiate there may be a point where their eyes glaze over from working at odds with themselves.
But starting with "carnal Christians", I managed to attract more than food for thought, but rather quite a banquet! I hope I didn't have a discouraging attitude, but maybe it's better to charge at the center of the idea even if you miss, or a subject like purgatory can cloud the atmosphere or make the ground sink if you're not careful. Or not. Probably've seen too much riot footage. VargasMilan (talk) Monday, 16:38, 27 July 2020 (EDT)
The difference between Judaism and Christianity essentially is a debate over the resurrection. The question, is that resurrection bodily or spiritual? RobSTrump 2Q2Q 19:45, 27 July 2020 (EDT)

Christ died once for all, part 4

Judaism taught prayers for the departed, as the Maccabees shows. St. Paul taught it in 2 Timothy 1, as shown in the fifth proof. Only those who confess their mortal sins are forgiven them. If there is no confession, as said in 1 Jn 1:7-10, there is no forgiveness. If one confesses and is forgiven, one avoids hell. If one receives the Body and Blood of Jesus well in Holy Communion, one can avoid Purgatory. Loving God and neighbor, the Two Great Commandments of Christ, are necessary. Some people don't want to obey Christ as King, they don't want to actually follow His teaching, on loving God with your whole heart, and loving your neighbor as you love yourself. hence, they fight against Christ's Teaching. Purgatory is proved (1) by 1 Cor 3:13-15 mentioning the fire through which we are saved, by (2) St. Peter mentioning in 1 Pet 3:18-19 and 4:6 the prison where spirits are temporarily imprisoned, to whom Christ preached after His death. (3) by Our Lord Himself mentioning this same prison as one out of which no one goes until he pays the last farthing. (4) By Our Lord Jesus speaking of those who receive lesser stripes, which cannot refer to eternal punishment, and therefore proves the temporal punishment of purgatory. (5) By the Maccabees and by St. Paul praying for Onesiphorus, his departed Christian friend. Five Solid Proofs. Clear as crystal. Those who deny Purgatory are opposing the Lord and the Apostles, and indeed God and His OT Prophets as well. NishantXavierFor Christ the King 09:43, 28 July 2020 (EDT)

  • 2 Macc 12:43: - "he sent twelve thousand drachms of silver to Jerusalem for sacrifice to be offered for the sins of the dead"
  • John 2:16: - Take these things hence; make not my Father's house an house of merchandise.
RobSTrump 2Q2Q 09:56, 28 July 2020 (EDT)

As proved from St. Paul, prayers for the departed are a Judeo-Christian Apostolic Tradition: "St. Paul offers a final simple proof: “The Lord give mercy to the house of Onesiphorus: because he hath often refreshed me, and hath not been ashamed of my chain:” [2 Tim 1:16]. Now, it is manifest in the text, and not infrequently admitted even by Protestant commentators, that Onesiphorus was a departed Christian, whose works of mercy St. Paul calls to mind.

An even better proof is in verse 18 "The Lord grant unto him [Onesiphorus] that he may find mercy of the Lord in that day" 2 Timothy 1:18.
Context: "for he oft refreshed me, and was not ashamed of my chain: But, when he was in Rome, he sought me out very diligently, and found me. The Lord grant unto him that he may find mercy of the Lord in that day" 2 Timothy 1:16-18.
Here, it is plainly evident that Paul is not speaking about the living survivors of the members of the House of Onesiphorus, but about Onesiphorus himself. --Dataclarifier (talk) 01:28, 30 July 2020 (EDT)
I corrected my error, there is no evidence from the context of that passage that Onesiphorus is dead. The past tense implies Onesiphorus is on the road somewhere and was separated from his household who were back home, presumably in Ephesus. I repent of my error when I posted "survivors" on this page, which is the only mistake I made thus far that I know of. My apologies. RobSTrump 2Q2Q 09:09, 30 July 2020 (EDT)

St. Thomas admirably argues: “Now there is no need to pray for the dead who are in heaven, for they are in no need; nor again for those who are in hell, because they cannot be loosed from sins.”[7] This magnificent proof of St. Thomas is a final proof of Purgatory.

St. Chrysostom comments: “Let us weep for these; let us assist them according to our power; let us think of some assistance for them, small though it be, yet still let us assist them. How and in what way? By praying and entreating others to make prayers for them, by continually giving to the poor on their behalf.” [8] NishantXavierFor Christ the King 11:02, 28 July 2020 (EDT)

Bizarre. RobSTrump 2Q2Q 10:54, 28 July 2020 (EDT)

The Prophets teach prayers for the departed, as Maccabees shows. The Apostles teach prayers for the departed, as St. Paul shows, regarding Onesiphorus. The Church Fathers teach prayers for the departed, as St. Chrysostom shows. The medieval scholastics like St. Thomas taught it. All Christendom for over 1500 years unanimously taught it. Only after Martin Luther did some fall into confusion as to the necessity of praying for the faithful departed. We pray for the faithful departed to be loosed from their sins, just as God has taught us in His Word to do. NishantXavierFor Christ the King 11:02, 28 July 2020 (EDT)

Son, you're gonna burn in hell if you don't repent. RobSTrump 2Q2Q 11:15, 28 July 2020 (EDT)
If you cannot read Paul is speaking about the living survivors members of the House of Onesiphorus, you are spiritually blind. RobSTrump 2Q2Q 15:46, 28 July 2020 (EDT)
"if he neglect to hear the Church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican"—"know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the Church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth"—"upon this rock I will build my Church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it"—"Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you."
Therefore the interpretation of the Church is the true interpretation of the scriptures. The Church teaches the truth that purgatory is grounded in the divinely inspired revealed holy scriptures of the word of God as a merciful reality for those who are saved by the blood of Christ to prepare them for heaven. --Dataclarifier (talk) 17:18, 28 July 2020 (EDT)
NishantXavier is referring to Sensus fidelium, Sensus plenior, Sensus Christianorum. --Dataclarifier (talk) 17:27, 28 July 2020 (EDT)
That's not going to keep you out of hell for denying to these little ones the salvation Christ purchased with his own blood. RobSTrump 2Q2Q 17:36, 28 July 2020 (EDT)
This teaching does not deny little ones the salvation Christ purchased with his own blood. Those in purgatory are already eternally saved by the blood of Christ. Their sins have been entirely removed. They are being purified and perfected.
Discernment of the truth is guaranteed by the scriptures: Matthew 18:13; 1 Timothy 3:15; Matthew 16:18; Hebrews 13:17 (quoted above) "That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive" Ephesians 4:14. It is by "the pillar and ground of the truth" that we know the truth of God. Therefore the interpretation of the Church is the true interpretation of the scriptures. --Dataclarifier (talk) 18:16, 28 July 2020 (EDT)
No, your teaching denies the redemptive blood of Jesus. RobSTrump 2Q2Q 18:57, 28 July 2020 (EDT)
Denying salvation in the blood of Christ is the same as denying the divinity of Christ. RobSTrump 2Q2Q 18:59, 28 July 2020 (EDT)
As I said before, I say it again: "Those in purgatory are already eternally saved by the blood of Christ. Their sins have been entirely removed. They are being purified and perfected."--Dataclarifier (talk) 01:36, 30 July 2020 (EDT)
DC: Put your money where your mouth is. Go down and vote below. RobSTrump 2Q2Q 01:39, 30 July 2020 (EDT)
DC: This is a test of your faith. Go down and take the poll. Remember, whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven. - Matt. 10:33. I don't think the Magisterium has nullified that passage. Time to stand up like a man. RobSTrump 2Q2Q 01:51, 30 July 2020 (EDT)
DC: Are you going to deny the Word? And the Word was made flesh..... RobSTrump 2Q2Q 01:58, 30 July 2020 (EDT)
Denying the established authority of the Church that God has established is the same as denying the divinity of Christ and his authority. --Dataclarifier (talk) 01:50, 31 July 2020 (EDT)
RobSmith: You also, put your money where your mouth is. Come up, vote in the companion poll. --Dataclarifier (talk) 01:50, 31 July 2020 (EDT)
RobSmith: This is a test of your faith. C'mon, take this poll. Christ established the Church. Remember, whoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven. Why do you call me Lord, Lord and not do what I say? - Matt. 10:33; Luke 6:46. I don't think the Magisterium has nullified that passage. Time to stand up like a man. --Dataclarifier (talk) 01:50, 31 July 2020 (EDT)
RobSmith: Are you going to deny the Word? And the Word was made flesh..... --Dataclarifier (talk) 01:50, 31 July 2020 (EDT)
Remember: the Word made flesh established the Church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against the Church, the house of God, which is the Church of God, the pillar and ground of the truth, and many antichrists have come, who went out from us because they all are not of us.
If you vote "Yes" you affirm the whole doctrine of the Church as the truth (which includes purgatory, and the whole canon of 73 books of the Bible). --Dataclarifier (talk) 01:50, 31 July 2020 (EDT)
We've had this debate before. And that was underhanded, changing the rules after I voted. But I see you have yet to affirm Christ and the Word of God before men in my poll. Tsk tsk tsk. Are you ashamed of Christ? RobSTrump 2Q2Q 02:08, 31 July 2020 (EDT)

Jesus and the moneychangers

It's an old event from the bible people have probably heard many sermons on, including Marxist anti-capitalist sermons. But it's true significance is too often overlooked. And it relates directly to the citation from Maccabees used to support purgatory.

The scenario: When the Law was given, a man who sinned was instructed to take a sheep from the flock and present it at the door of the temple. A few millennia later when most Israelites were urban dwellers in Jerusalem, very few had flocks. So the priests allowed a farmers market in the temple where city-folk could purchase a sheep from a sheep-raiser. Of course the priests collected a piece of the action in the form of rent or a percentage for each sheep sold. IOWs, the more the people sinned, the more sheep were sold. That's why Jesus got mad. And his anger was at the priests more than the sheep sellers. He essentially said "You got it all wrong! Your job as priests is to teach the people to avoid sin, not profit from it!"

This was Luther's objection over indulgences - the same issue. How did the Roman church respond? They rejected the gospel of Jesus in the same way the Pharisees did. And they doubled down; they took a book that was never even Jewish holy scripture and made it the basis of their law. RobSTrump 2Q2Q 22:44, 28 July 2020 (EDT)

No, you failed to understand. The persons who paid for the goats had no connection to the priests, but wanted to express some scrupulous consideration for the warriors' well-being to show they risked death to honor God, not to have an opportunity for lucre as if they were merely mercenaries. You already touched on (above), correctly, the idea of resurrection the proto-pharisees had, and how it was not the same as the Christians', but which was still a redeeming feature that motivated the Holy Apostle Paul to repeat efforts to persuade the Pharisees ("Brothers, I am a Pharisee and the son of Pharisees. It is for our hope in the resurrection of the dead that I am on trial." [Acts 23:6]) Do you think if the priests had eaten some of the goat-meat, it would be some luxury? The sin offering was prescribed in the earliest chapters of Leviticus, not as an innovation by Hellenic- or Roman-occupied Jerusalem.
And, I repeat, "sacrifice for sin" or "sin offering" is a misleading name that stood for inadvertent ritual faults. The version way up on this page uses "sacrifice for sins" which is even more confusing. The sacrifice for sin is described in Lev. 4:1-5:13, 6:24-30. The "sacrifice for sin" is declared unnecessary due to Christ's sacrifice in a wordplay of Heb. 10:18, "When all sins have been forgiven, there can be no more sin offerings." That is, "sin offerings" is one phrase. This polite dismissal in Hebrews only emphasizes the fact that knowledge of this is hardly necessary for salvation, an assessment of a type of Scripture, which, by the way, that Rob and I explicitly agreed upon some months back.
It's such a misleading phrase that that Today's English Version reads "Offerings for unintentional sins"; The New Jerusalem Bible uses a footnote "the sacrifice for sin expiates ritual faults against the Lord", a version which has an Imprimatur and Nihil Obstat from 1966, and reads in Lev. 4:22—
When a leader sins and inadvertently does one of the things forbidden by the commandments of the Lord his God, thus rendering himself guilty...
What no one brought up is whether Jesus himself ended the purgatory described. But IndependentSkeptic has become very dependent on DataClarifier's sensitivity towards whether he is approaching a time where he must defer to you in any matter and pretends to leave if he is.
That's fine. All of their contributions can be added to the Purgatory article as counterexamples or used however you see fit, and, as if they were in debtor's prison, the income of their argumentive property can be used to benefit Conservapedia until the last dollar of their debt of insolence is paid for. VargasMilan (talk) Tuesday, 23:41, 28 July 2020 (EDT)
By the way, as shocked as I was by your ending, I really enjoyed the way you told that story. VargasMilan (talk) Wednesday, 05:47, 29 July 2020 (EDT)
A menstruous woman was denied admission to the temple during the period of her cleansing. She had to pay a readmission fee. That's not just a ritual failure. And there was even a sliding scale introduced. If you fell below the poverty line and couldn't afford a sheep, two turtle doves would do. What am I getting wrong here? RobSTrump 2Q2Q 08:42, 29 July 2020 (EDT)
In Egypt you could be denied admission if a menstrous woman looked at you. Trump said he'd make "deals" with the poor who couldn't afford medical treatment. Does that mean all he thinks about is profit? VargasMilan (talk) Wednesday, 09:09, 29 July 2020 (EDT)
To the question of Trump, I'd say it means Trump would demand some quid pro quo or responsibility from beneficiaries of government programs, and not build the image of government as Sugar Daddy. RobSTrump 2Q2Q 09:17, 29 July 2020 (EDT)
Rather than think of a counter-example, let me try to piece together Scripture of what I think is your underlying concern:
Ezekiel 20:25—"I even gave them laws that were not good and observances by which they could never live."
Romans 7:8-10—"But it was this commandment that sin took advantage of to produce all kinds of covetousness in me, for when there is no Law, sin is dead."
"Once, when there was no Law, I [in the person of mankind] was alive; but when the commandment came, sin came to life and I died...."
Romans 5:20—"When law came, it was to multiply the opportunities of falling..."
Acts 15:10—"It would only provoke God's anger now, surely, if you imposed on the disciples the very burden that neither we nor our ancestors were strong enough to support?"
But...
Romans 7:12—"The law is sacred, and what it commands is sacred, just and good."
John 7:17—"[T]he Law was given by Moses...."
But again...
Hebrews 7:19—"[T]he Law could not make anyone perfect...."
Answer to 1. These are ceremonial precepts that didn't give grace, but as noted as "observances by which they could never live", by fulfilling them a person confessed themselves a sinner. It goes on: "And I polluted them [in the sense of scandal: showed them to be polluted] with their own offerings, making them sacrifice their first-born [although through substitution]; which was to punish them,..."
Answer to 2. The law was "deadly" as the "collision point" not the cause, because imperfect (without giving grace to wield its commandments or prohibitions without error). So sin, through men, "took" advantage and died, the advantage was not "given", in the verse 11 repetition: "because sin took advantage of the commandment to mislead me, and so sin, through that commandment, killed me," and finally to verse 12 above.
Answer to 3. That is, sin all the more than while pagans, because an object being forbidden becomes more grievous to reach, and perversely more enticing when forbidden. But the forbidding not evil for the reasons in the answer above.
Answer to 4. Commitment to the law without grace wasn't enough to fulfill the law itself that didn't provide it. Romans 9:16—"In other words, the only thing that counts is not what human beings want or try to do, but the mercy of God."
As Psalm 119:32—
"I run the way of your commandments,
Since you have set me free."
That is, my heart, by giving me grace and charity.
VargasMilan (talk) Wednesday, 12:22, 29 July 2020 (EDT)
So, although not law, a concept of purgatory in some circles must've been current at the time of Christ and just before, which Nishant has alluded to. Then circa 1500s the Roman church adopted it as official doctrine. But it wasn't official doctrine before Luther, although the Roman church was preaching it. Roman Catholics and Protestant scholars can probably agree on this timeline, although I personally have never really devoted any study to this question. I've just absorbed bits of understanding as a disinterested lurker over many years. RobSTrump 2Q2Q
These verses are really as broad as possible supporting the Old Law in refutation of that early heresy, Marcionism, and maintaining that the Old Law was good. VargasMilan (talk) Wednesday, 22:20, 29 July 2020 (EDT)

Drop kick me Jesus, through the goal posts of life

What would be the point of praying this prayer if Christ can't get you there? RobSTrump 2Q2Q 17:44, 28 July 2020 (EDT)

Some people's foolish over-demotion has made parts of the conversation unreadable, and nobody has corrected it. I will do it, but in exchange you have to tolerate my posting Psalm 103. I am especially interested in stanza 5 in context.
Psalm 103: God is Love
1.Bless the Lord, my soul,
bless his holy name, all that is in me!
Bless the Lord, my soul,
and remember all his kindnesses:
2.in forgiving all your offences,
in curing all your diseases,
in redeeming your life from the Pit,
in crowning you with love and tenderness,
in filling your years with prosperity,
in renewing your youth like an eagle's
3.The Lord, who does what is right,
is always on the side of the oppressed;
he revealed his intentions to Moses,
his prowess to the sons of Israel.
4.The Lord is tender and compassionate
slow to anger, most loving;
his indignation does not last for ever,
his resentment exists a short time only;
he never treats us, never punishes us,
as our guilt and our sins deserve.
5.No less than the height of heaven over earth
is the greatness of his love for those who fear him;
he takes our sins farther away
than the east is from the west.
6.As tenderly as a father treats his children,
so the Lord treats those who fear him;
he knows what we are made of,
he remembers we are dust.
7.Man lasts no longer than grass,
no longer than a wild flower he lives,
one gust of wind, and he is gone,
never to be seen there again;
8.yet the Lord's love for those who fear him
lasts from all eternity and for ever,
like his goodness to their children's children,
as long as they keep his covenant
and remember to obey his precepts.
9.The Lord has fixed his throne in the heavens,
his empire is over all.
Bless the Lord, all his angels,
heroes mighty to enforce his word,
attentive to his word of command.
10.Bless the Lord, all his armies,
servants to enforce his will.
Bless the Lord, all his creatures
in every part of his empire!
Bless the Lord, my soul.


And you yourself in these postings deny that God has removed our sins as far as the east is from the west; you claim God only takes it so far, and the sinner has to do the rest himself in Purgatory. RobSTrump 2Q2Q 15:23, 26 July 2020 (EDT)
The fatal death-dealing disease is removed as far as the east is from the west, but the patient being cured must endure a period of recovery from the leftover effects of the disease. If the patient foolishly contracts a minor strain of the disease again by careless exposure to it the cure is applied again, and recovery is faster. But if the recovered patient deliberately defies the doctor, the tragedy of death is almost guaranteed (Hebrews 6:4-8), unless the more vigorous effort of reapplying the one infallible cure is made to effect a healing which the chief physician has prescribed ("the ministry of reconciliation"). It is still Christ who does it to the soul through the ministry of his body, the church. --IndependentSkeptic (talk) 16:09, 26 July 2020 (EDT)
No scripture there, I see. When will you stop spinning your wheels claiming that you believe the Bible and then turn around and deny it? RobSTrump 2Q2Q 16:37, 26 July 2020 (EDT)
IndependentSkeptic did use Scripture, but didn't follow through. Is there a better [definition of the] inner meaning we can get to when we compare that stanza to the other stanzas or to the rest of the stanza the psalmist writes within the sweeping motions the psalmist uses to encourage the reader? Is it part of a proof or disproof that we would understand better if we knew what the full message was? VargasMilan (talk) Tuesday, 18:14, 28 July 2020 (EDT)
And VM found more evidence to refute Purgatory in verse 4:
  • he never treats us, never punishes us, as our guilt and our sins deserve.
Of course, you know the answer to that, "the Magisterium has disannulled the word "never" and "never" doesn't mean never." RobSTrump 2Q2Q 22:01, 28 July 2020 (EDT)
It's true what the Bible says, "he never treats us, never punishes us, as our guilt and our sins deserve."
Instead, His punishments are far milder than what we deserve, because he is not willing that any should perish (2 Peter 3:9). But you ignore the fact that the Bible teaches that God disciplines, rebukes, and chastises his own children, every one saved and adopted by him through the precious blood of Jesus, and that it is God's painful punishment of those he loves who have offended him in some way that is not utterly fatal, and that his painful punishments of discipline, rebuke and chastisement are his correction of those who sin but don't sin any deadly sin "unto death", the death that is the second death in the lake of fire (Revelation 20:14-15).
1 John 5:16-17 shows that there are deadly sins (deserving eternal fire) and sins that are not deadly, from which we are "saved as by fire" (1 Corinthians 3:12-15) (deserving temporary fire). Not all punishments are the same intensity, and not all who are guilty are guilty to the same degree (Luke 12:47-48 "beaten with few stripes"; John 19:11 "the greater sin"). If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins (1 John 1:5-10). The Bible plainly says God disciplines us as a Father, and that His disciplines are painful—
"5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening [chastisement] of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:
"6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth [chastises], and scourgeth every son he receiveth.
"7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
"8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
"9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits and live?
"10 For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure, but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.
"11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.
"12 Wherefore lift up the hands which hang down, and the feeble knees;
"13 And make straight paths for your feet, lest that which is lame be turned out of the way; but let it rather be healed.
"14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord.
—Hebrews 12:5-14 KJV (bold emphasis added)
As for the Magisterium, she has never disannulled "never". She teaches that "never" does indeed actually mean "never"—God never punishes his children as they deserve according to strict justice (hell and the second death), but rather instead according to his mercy. Fathers punish their own children for their offenses in some way without ceasing to love them: they don't punish them with death. He disciplines, rebukes and chastises painfully those whom he receives as sons "for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness". And if our works are burned up, we ourselves who are children of God are still saved as by fire. If we are not punished with chastisements, then we are bastards and not sons. We can be forgiven in this world or in the world to come for all sins, all except for the sin of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit (Matthew 12:31-32) --IndependentSkeptic (talk) 12:35, 29 July 2020 (EDT)
Well that certainly cleans things up. Christ died once for all , except you still have to do time in purgatory for the sins Christ did not die for. But then it's not really you doing time in purgatory for the leftover sins Christ either did or didn't die for, it's God not giving it to you with both barrels for what you really deserve cause evidently Christ died for nothing. Thanks for clearing that up. RobSTrump 2Q2Q 13:27, 29 July 2020 (EDT)
If Christ had not died for the sins of the whole world, there would be no purgatory at all, only hell, and after hell the lake of fire. Those in purgatory have been saved by the precious blood of Christ and because of his unmerited salvation are being purified from every leftover defect of the damage of sin and the remaining vestiges of their unrecognized and unintended addiction to minor worldly attachments by the refining fire of God's love in preparation for their triumphant entrance into heaven. They are "being made perfect" through the blood of the cross.
Purgatory is a mercy. It's like the remaining withdrawal from drug addiction after the removal of the deadly drug by purifying the blood and system of the former addict. Relapses can occur. Paul warns believers redeemed by the precious blood of Jesus to not fall back into sin. But even they who weren't careful enough can still be purified. Those in purgatory now see clearly what their lack of total commitment costs, but God is still merciful through the atonement of the cross. They don't go to hell and into the lake of fire. They spend time in rehabilitative recovery, and when completely clean are released from treatment and therapy. I learned this analogy from Dataclarifier's work in health care. And from former addicts who became devout Catholics. --IndependentSkeptic (talk) 14:07, 29 July 2020 (EDT)
I/S: Go up and read what I added to the Catholic gospel of wrath last night, cause you certainly preached it right here right now this morning. So, after this presentation on physical abuse and torture, I'm going to ask why you cannot understand these two verses which are key to salvation:
  • shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits and live?
  • the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
Incidentally, I'm holding off on a discussion of time reckoning for a disembodied spirit in Purgatory. Time reckoning certainly is a natural and fleshy concept that would make impossible for the natural man to grasp the idea of eternal life. RobSTrump 2Q2Q 13:54, 29 July 2020 (EDT)
Purgatory is a temporary spiritual state outside of time and space. It isn't physical torment, but spiritual, like the pain of intense regret and the reality of the grief of temporary deprivation of the fullness of joy in the presence of God. The Catechism of the Catholic Church explains this in detail using scripture, beginning at paragraph 1029. --IndependentSkeptic (talk) 14:10, 29 July 2020 (EDT)
I am going to dissect further into your posting here, cause I think it shows a natural mind struggling to understand the spiritual mind.
I/S says: "The Bible plainly says God disciplines us as a Father, and that His disciplines are painful—", then goes into a litany of scriptures;
"9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits and live?" [Where does it say the Father of spirits chastisements would be painful or physical? In fact, the implication is quite the opposite]
"10 For they [fathers of our flesh] verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure, but he [the Father of spirits] for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness. [corroborates what I just said above. The Father of spirits chastisement is motivated by, and brings about a different result than the chastisement by the fathers of our flesh. The spiritual teaching here is that while the chastisements of our earthly and heavenly fathers are comparable, they are not analogous].
So, I ask the question: Why would someone find chastisement from the Father of spirits difficult or painful when the rewards are so rich and abundant? The answer is pride, as best illustrated in John chapter 8, when the Jews felt they were entitled to being called God's children by virtue of circumcision, it was theirs by birthright. Even Peter had trouble sitting down to eat with unwashen gentiles. Jesus said, "No", you must be spiritually born again to be called a child of God. In I/S and Dataclarifier's case, they are holding onto what they perceive as a spiritual birthright given to the Roman Catholic Church, as if it were God's Covenant with Abraham. They ignore Jesus's command for a second birth, a spiritual birth, and claim infant baptism, like circumcision, gives them spiritual birth and entitlement. It doesn't. RobSTrump 2Q2Q 14:45, 29 July 2020 (EDT)
"Why would someone find chastisement from the Father of spirits difficult or painful when the rewards are so rich and abundant?"
You ignored verse 6 "he chasteneth and scourgeth", and verse 11 "no chastening for the moment seemeth to be joyous, but grievous".
I said "intense grief". Have you ever experienced intense grief? It's very painful. Have you ever been scourged as Jesus was scourged? It was incredibly painful. And what father's correction is not painful to bear? It hurts, sometimes very deeply. To discover that your works were bad and merit destruction is painful beyond words. So God's discipline, rebuke, and chastisement is painful to bear. You are still "saved, yet as by fire". --IndependentSkeptic (talk) 17:05, 29 July 2020 (EDT)
That's exactly the point: to the proud sinner God's chastisement is grievous; to the repentant sinner it's a relief and the beginning of a new life. RobSTrump 2Q2Q 17:16, 29 July 2020 (EDT)
  • Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.
RobSTrump 2Q2Q 17:20, 29 July 2020 (EDT)
"For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth [chastises], and scourgeth every son he receiveth." Scourging is painful. A scourge is not a yoke. --IndependentSkeptic (talk) 17:24, 29 July 2020 (EDT)
  • if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
Sure, its scourging if you want to hang onto your old sin. RobSTrump 2Q2Q 17:31, 29 July 2020 (EDT)
Listen to the Church. Then you will have rest for your soul. She is the Body of Christ Himself. Listen to him. --IndependentSkeptic (talk) 17:38, 29 July 2020 (EDT)
(ec) Ooww, Word of God too much for you, again, so you have to fall back on worshipping the church.
Revisiting verse 9 from the 1 John text, the word "rather" is where the contrast is drawn between the painful chastisement of our earthly fathers, and the my burden is light of Jesus. RobSTrump 2Q2Q 17:44, 29 July 2020 (EDT)
The word of God says the Church is the pillar and bulwark of the truth. Jesus said the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. Therefore the doctrine of the Church, which includes all of the word of God, is the truth of God. You will find rest for your souls. --IndependentSkeptic (talk) 17:53, 29 July 2020 (EDT)
Okay, so you can't discuss or argue scripture and fall back on worshipping men and the church. You were close to finding spiritual life above, but your postings in todays segment are so riddled with contradictions, I would not know where to begin. Let's take this one, for example: "temporary spiritual state outside of time". Wow. Don't answer here now. Save it for when we create a subheading to address that particular question.
IMO, once again you proved today the truth of God's Word,
  • For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
Once you stop hiding behind the fig leaf of Roman church doctrine and the Magisterium, and make a commitment to Christ rather than the church, God probably actually can use you. RobSTrump 2Q2Q 18:11, 29 July 2020 (EDT)
My apology, Vargas. I thought the self-evident plain and simple meaning of the scriptures I cited on the principle of sola scriptura was sufficient. It should have been, for anyone who believes what the Bible says for itself. But it is now abundantly apparent that the plain meaning of the Scripture is not sufficient. Appreciate what you said here. Thanks. Thanks also to NishantXavier and my buddy Dataclarifier for their above comments on Scripture about the consistent doctrine of the Christian Church regarding purgatory. Those who undergo purification have already been saved by the blood of Christ alone and are "saved as by fire" when their defects, leftover when sins have been removed, are purged away and they are perfected. --IndependentSkeptic (talk) 18:30, 28 July 2020 (EDT)
I'm sorry. What I had meant was, a better (as in clearer) definition so the readers can understand better, not that you were looking in, or had reached, the wrong place. I corrected what I wrote above. VargasMilan (talk) Tuesday, 18:51, 28 July 2020 (EDT)
I just want to add that back when I was seriously looking at the Baptist church as the true church, I was really shocked to find out from the Bible itself that there are actually different degrees of sin!, some more serious than others, in John 19:11 "he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin" (oh, wow!), and in 1 John 5:16-17 "All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death". I never forgot it. It sure wasn't Baptist teaching. From that, I later grasped the Catholic doctrine of venial sins that are not the same as deadly mortal sins. Look at verse 16: "If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it." Reminds me of prayers for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sins. The Church does this through pleading the blood of Jesus. It didn't take long for the Bible to persuade me that the Catholic Church was true. Later being with Dataclarifier cinched it for me. God bless you. --IndependentSkeptic (talk) 19:19, 28 July 2020 (EDT)
The other one that got me was the clear statement of Peter that "even baptism doth also now save us" 1 Peter 3:21, "Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God" John 3:5, "Not by any works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost" Titus 3:5. The Baptists said that baptism doesn't save, but Peter says it does! The Baptists said that "regenerative baptism" is a doctrine of the devil. But Jesus says you cannot enter the kingdom of God without being born again (Greek "regenerated") by baptism—"born of water and of the Spirit"! Same thing with 1 Corinthians 3:11-15 "saved as by fire"! Anyway, I finally accepted the Catholic Church is true because of what's in the Bible and taking the Scripture as meaning exactly what it says according to its simple, plain and clear words sola scriptura. --IndependentSkeptic (talk) 19:51, 28 July 2020 (EDT)
I loved especially the parts of the Catechism of the Catholic Church which teaches that we are saved and justified by the blood of Jesus Christ alone. Look it up! --IndependentSkeptic (talk) 19:56, 28 July 2020 (EDT)
For the umteenth time, these Roman Catholics are like Mormons; they are not seeking salvation in Christ and God's grace; they are seeking "the true church". RobSTrump 2Q2Q 20:29, 28 July 2020 (EDT)
(ec) You said that before RobS, but I have to admit he seemed to say something quite close to that plainly in this case. VargasMilan (talk) Tuesday, 20:42, 28 July 2020 (EDT)
They are like Jews in John chapter 8 who say, we be not born of fornication, Abraham is our father. They essentially say "Peter is our papa". They are not interested in truth, Christ, salvation, grace, or spiritual matters. Like circumcision, they think infant baptism makes them heirs of God's promises. Jesus says, ye are of your father the devil. RobSTrump 2Q2Q 20:35, 28 July 2020 (EDT)
It's pretty obvious from this debate they are not interested in (a) Bible, (b) the precious blood of Jesus; (c) the divinity of Christ; (d) truth; (e) the grace of God, or (f) salvation. They are willing to toss all that in the trash to hold onto "the one true church". RobSTrump 2Q2Q 20:48, 28 July 2020 (EDT)
The one true Church is the body of Christ himself teaching the truth of the doctrine of salvation through the precious blood of Christ alone by the grace of God as shown in the scriptures of the whole complete Bible that the one true Church defends as truth.
The doctrine of the Catechism of the Catholic Church cites the truth of the Bible by references on every page and urges Christians to read the Bible with devotion. It teaches the whole Bible doctrine of the precious blood of Jesus, the divinity of Christ, truth in the inward parts of the heart and truth outwardly in the virtues of moral honesty and integrity in behavior and good works, that salvation is by the grace of God alone who commands us to do good works in his name, and the authority of the Church to preach and to teach all of these Bible truths. I as a former fundamentalist have more and more found the Catholic Church to be the most biblical Church on the face of the earth, the pillar and foundation of the truth, having the established authority by God, by comparing scripture with scripture and the doctrines of the Church in the light of scripture. There is no division of contradiction between the Lord and the Bible and the doctrines of the Church he built. If there were, I would have found it by now.
The Catholic Church was not founded by those who disobeyed their leaders, went out from the church they had been in, and taught a different doctrine from the one that they had been taught by the church that they left.
Liberals delight in seeing contradictions in the Bible. Critics of the doctrine and authority of the Church delight in seeing contradictions of the Church in the Bible. In any case, all of these deny that the Church is of God and that the Church is the dwelling place of God in the Spirit and that God the Father through the Son by the power of the Holy Spirit offers through the ministry of the Church the free unmerited gift of salvation by the precious blood of Jesus. And yet it is the Bible that testifies to the Church as sent by God as the source of salvation from Him, just as Jesus Christ was sent by the Father, as the Savior of the world. Jesus is in the Church. The Church is his body, the Bride of Christ, the temple of the Holy Spirit of truth. To hold to the Church is to hold to Christ and to proclaim His Doctrine of salvation through the precious blood of Christ alone. That's the teaching of the Church Fathers. That's the teaching of the Catechism of the Catholic Church. There is even a devotional Litany of the Precious Blood of Jesus proclaiming salvation by the precious blood of Jesus. --[[User:IndependentSkeptic|IndependentSkeptic] (talk) 01:18, 29 July 2020 (EDT)
It doesn't teach "the precious blood of Jesus and the divinity of Christ" if it teaches Purgatory; rather it makes a mockery of itself. C'mon, this isn't rocket science. RobSTrump 2Q2Q 08:26, 29 July 2020 (EDT)
5.No less than the height of heaven over earth
is the greatness of his love for those who fear him;
he takes our sins farther away
than the east is from the west.
What happens if you lose your filial fear (choked by the thorns)? What form do you think purgatory would take? Until your heart could shine like the sun? VargasMilan (talk) Wednesday, 09:35, 29 July 2020 (EDT)
It's often cited how Jesus' was the first to call God, 'Father', which the Pharisees thought presumptuous and blasphemous deserving of capital punishment. God was viewed as a God of wrath, approachable only by the high priest behind the veil. Jesus evidently was the first or only one to take verse 6 (As tenderly as a father treats his children) and say, 'no, this is not a metaphor, it is literally true'. RobSTrump 2Q2Q 09:46, 29 July 2020 (EDT)
Why would liberals delight in seeing contradictions in the Bible, generally? If they are liberal Christians but loyal ones, wouldn't they feel even more conflicted by an apparent contradiction because they get entangled by the lesser spiritual capacities of their mind? Or by liberal do you mean disloyal? If the latter, that's a rather safe position you're taking. Who does that help? VargasMilan (talk) Wednesday, 03:09, 29 July 2020 (EDT)
I'm going to make a charitible assumption that Independent Skeptic has some image of Protestants that makes him want to avoid them. Maybe he thinks he has something to lose. Sometimes when "it's not what you think", you have clearer ideas, and it "works out to the good" and you can work together again, like Joseph and his family. Orthodox belief can carry you for a while, but it's not what the priests I've listened to actually counsel. Instead they say "We use doctrine [among other sources]", "The devotion of Protestants leads them to understand the Bible even better than Catholics typically do" or "Yes, follow your conscience and to educate it [diligently by all means] is what devotion is about." And once again some Protestant denominations small and large don't hold to Sola Scriptura—unless by that he just means nonbelief in papal infallibility. VargasMilan (talk) Tuesday, 23:03, 28 July 2020 (EDT)
Thank you for your assumption. However, my parents were Protestant, I was raised Protestant, I later joined the Baptist church and argued against Catholicism as of the devil. I understand the Protestant and fundamentalist view. But being raised to believe wholeheartedly in the Bible, I found discrepancies between Protestant and fundamentalist doctrine and the Bible. So I kept looking for a true Bible church. I finally found it in the Catholic Church. It's because of the Bible I became Catholic and accepted Catholic doctrine as entirely biblical, including the doctrine of purgatory, as I have already testified, above. Soon afterward, my own parents became Catholic, because of what I showed them the Bible says. And they had read the Bible every day! After seeing for two years the change it made in my own life, my mother said to my dad, "Honey, have you found anything in our son's church that is against the Bible?" He said, "Nope!" —May God bless you! -- IndependentSkeptic (talk) 01:47, 29 July 2020 (EDT)
Thank you for sharing that. VargasMilan (talk) Wednesday, 02:14, 29 July 2020 (EDT)
You know what the Bible says,If thy eye offend thee, pluck it out and cast it from thee. Protestants are just a bunch of liberals who have twisted the meaning. Thank God nowhere does God command us to exercise spiritual discernment and we have the Magisterium to do our thinking for us. The Roman church sticks to the plain simple meaning of the text. Anybody with eyeballs yet must be a Cafeteria Christian. RobSTrump 2Q2Q 08:22, 29 July 2020 (EDT)
Yes, seriously, thanks for noticing what I didn't catch on to. He's a little non-responsive. He could have tried to turn the contradictions you mentioned on this page into counter-examples, but I guess he felt like resting in his glittering generalities, or something. VargasMilan (talk) Wednesday, 09:45, 29 July 2020 (EDT)

Gentlemen, you are very confused on what the word Protestant means.

Here is definition of the word "Protestant" from the Webster-Merriam dictionary: "a member of any of several church denominations denying the universal authority of the Pope and affirming the Reformation principles of justification by faith alone, the priesthood of all believers, and the primacy of the Bible as the only source of revealed truth; broadly : a Christian not of a Catholic or Eastern church."[1]

Therefore, if you are a Christian and not a Catholic or a member of the Eastern Orthodox branch of Christianity, you are a Protestant (using the broad definition of the word Protestant).

IndependentSkeptic, a fundamentalist is a Protestant. You are confused about the definition of fundamentalist and/or Protestant.Conservative (talk) 14:44, 29 July 2020 (EDT)

I was using a parallelism. There are Protestants and there are Protestants who are fundamentalists. I was raised a Protestant. When I became a fundamentalist I was still a Protestant. While all fundamentalists are Protestant, not all Protestants are fundamentalist. --IndependentSkeptic (talk) 17:05, 29 July 2020 (EDT)
Miraculous experiences are often accepted by Protestants as revealed truth too. But Conservative is right about the confusion; Nishant asks if people are Catholic or Evangelical, which is some kind of either-or logical defect. VargasMilan (talk) Wednesday, 18:07, 29 July 2020 (EDT)
Maccabees and Mormons

Catholics and Orthodox tend to emphasize the importance of Apostolic Succession in the Churches; Evangelicals and Protestants typically do not. The Churches with Apostolic Succession have always prayed for the faithful departed. It is a 2000 year old practice. The Orthodox do it just as much as we Catholics do. So we didn't invent it. Maccabees also was in the Scriptural Canon of Pope St. Damasus in the Fourth Century. It has always been considered a part of Scripture. It is also a Jewish historical work and bears witness to Apostolic Tradition and the Jewish practice. If it had said "prayers for the dead are unprofitable and useless", Protestants would be quoting from it. But in actual fact, it called them good and pious. NishantXavierFor Christ the King 22:27, 29 July 2020 (EDT)

Gotta love your logic. Cannibalism is a 2,000 year old practice. So is fornication, adultery, and murder. We should petition the Magisterium to change the ordinances of God on these too, huh? RobSTrump 2Q2Q 22:46, 29 July 2020 (EDT)
Cannibalism, fornication, adultery, and murder are condemned by the Church. Purgatory is not condemned but taught as truth by the Church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth. --Dataclarifier (talk) 02:25, 30 July 2020 (EDT)
Yes, but the Magisterium certainly has the power and authority to make cannibalism, fornication, adultery, and murder not only acceptable and pleasing to God, but requisite for salvation. Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. RobSTrump 2Q2Q 10:08, 30 July 2020 (EDT)

Faithful Israelites prayed for the departed. You have deviated from the Faith. To be truly faithful, you must pray for the faithful departed, just as the Maccabees did, just as St. Paul did, just as the Orthodox Churches do, just as the One, Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church does. --NishantXavierFor Christ the King 23:02, 29 July 2020 (EDT)

Alright, let's be clear on two facts, which are being conflated.
(1) Prayers TO the dead, which is often requisite in the canonization process, is necromancy and forbidden by scripture.
(2) Prayers FOR the dead, while not expressly forbidden, will not influence God's final judgement. All they amount to is the person expressing hope that the deceased may have found salvation in this life.
And if the person praying has not found salvation, his/her prayers are moot. And if the person who is still alive has found salvation, they likely know better, that God has already passed judgement on sinners, and has already assured the place of his people. RobSTrump 2Q2Q 23:06, 29 July 2020 (EDT)
So if you have not found salvation, you can pray FOR the dead till your blue in the face, and it won't amount to a hill of beans. But it's not sinful. By contrast, asking the late Pope John Paul II to do a miracle for you is Satanic. RobSTrump 2Q2Q 23:15, 29 July 2020 (EDT)

Notice how you deny the Word of God. Sacred Scripture says, "It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins." while you claim "Prayers FOR the dead, while not expressly forbidden, will not influence God's final judgement".


Your response just got clipped in half because of your cynical use of sliding the subject of a second sentence with a positive connotation into the predicate of a first sentence with a doubtful and contention connotation. You're not here to cause "collisions", and you're not here to start fights.
On the the contrary, the sins referred to in Maccabees 2 are ritual faults. This is the third time I've said this. Such ritual faults, expiated by "sin offerings" are no more according to Hebrews 10:18—
When all sins have been forgiven, there can be no more sin offerings.
so the dead will not need to be loosed from these kinds of sins, prayers or otherwise.
which will again be the third time I have written this.
And if Christ descended into hell and led out the righteous dead to heaven, where is the basis that the effectiveness of prayers for the dead are proven by this proof text? Maybe they only apply to the dead in hell, not purgatory. And the dead that are in hell now are not the righteous that Christ led out, but unrepentant, evidently. This only shows it in the case of ritual faults (already forgiven for the faithful), and there's doubt the text you used can be translated as "prayers".


I will say something else. I think the claim that NishantXavier, DataClarifier and IndependentSkeptic are independent people has been thrown into strong doubt.

Why, besides all their other similarities, would they all just happen use either the same "old doctrine" or the same outdated Douay texts? RobS mentioned in passing DataClarifier was fixated on pre-Vatican II doctrine in passing, of which I'm entirely disinterested (and to possibly place weight on personal sentiments, uninterested), and now that quality is showing up among the newcomers!

Please spare us, and drop the charade. We're not obliged to work three (or four?) times as hard because you feel like faking consensuses or doing other things to turn split identities to your advantage. Trust me, everyone has better things to do than participate in the stupidity of phony consensuses. We'll survive without them. Some "debate", huh?

You're certainly not going to get any credit with God if you're going to maintain a silly way of evangelizing, are you?

And why is this Apocryphal writing being teed up about prayers of the dead, now, after it was used earlier as prooftexts about Purgatory?

I guess you don't notice what you actually do, but instead of reading and discussion, all your energies seem to be devoted to bending the course of ostensive devotional reading around anomalies of Scriptural and Deutercanonical Scriptural interpretation that a devoted and conscientious learner doesn't really care about!

"Oh! How about that! An amphiboly!"

"Yes, but what kind?"

"...Uh...aren't we gathering material for an article about doctrinal terms, not sophistical refutations?"

"Let's discover those refutations by accident!"

"Oh, look at the time!"

The Truth remains. Praying for the dead is holy and wholesome, good and pious, so that they can be loosed from sins. Asking the Saints in Heaven to pray for us is another matter, and the Book of Revelation shows us Angels and Saints in Heaven offering up prayers like incense. Just like you ask your pastors to pray for you, we ask the Angels and Saints to pray for us, knowing we are One Body in Christ. If you don't pray for the departed, God will ask you why you neglected to perform that Work of Mercy one day. It is a good and holy thought to do so, and therefore all Christians are bound to. --NishantXavierFor Christ the King 23:16, 29 July 2020 (EDT)


The above needs to be re-written. The premise has been refuted for the third time, and you, or your designated representative, will have to use a different premise, attempt a refutation or be called out for spamming. Thank you. VargasMilan (talk) Thursday, 05:52, 30 July 2020 (EDT)

"One Body in Christ". Are you in Christ? RobSTrump 2Q2Q 02:23, 30 July 2020 (EDT)
Go back to school, and by that I don't mean Catholic seminary. You are not citing scripture. RobSTrump 2Q2Q 23:19, 29 July 2020 (EDT)
Son, I don't know how old you are, but you're falling into the big trap many Catholic proselytizers fall into: they assume non-Roman Catholic Christian believers are just as ignorant of scriptures as most of the Roman Catholic laity is. The Roman church does not rely on the bible for teaching, and rather uses catechism. And I suspect many higher-ups in ages past, as well as now, think people will believe any old line of crap junk stuff reasoning doctrine so long as it sounds flowery, pious, and holy. Son, this is how Satan operates. Deceit and deception is his game. Don't assume non-Roman Catholics do not know God's Word; and you're going to have just as much luck with that Book of Maccabees as 19 year old LDS 'elders' have with the Book of Mormon. But as P.T. Barnum said, "There's a sucker born every minute", and maybe you can find somebody who never heard any of God's word to peddle your tripe to. RobSTrump 2Q2Q 23:34, 29 July 2020 (EDT)

I am citing Scripture, but Luther took it out of your Bible, so you don't have it. Maccabees was in the fourth century Canon of Scripture approved by the Catholic Church. It has always been recognized as Scripture, along with the other 72 books. But Revelation itself teaches neo-Sadducees that the Angels and Saints in Heaven are alive, not dead, and that they are praising the Lord and offering up prayers for those on Earth. This Book of Revelation is also denied by those who don't know the Word of God, or have fallen into the error of neo-Sadduceeism, of denying the departed in Christ are alive in Him. --NishantXavierFor Christ the King 23:37, 29 July 2020 (EDT)

"departed in Christ" Were they in Christ before or after they departed? Are you in Christ? RobSTrump 2Q2Q 02:23, 30 July 2020 (EDT)

2 Macc 15:12 "What he saw was this: Onias, the former high priest,* a noble and good man, modest in bearing, gentle in manner, distinguished in speech, and trained from childhood in all that belongs to excellence, was praying with outstretched arms for the whole Jewish community.b 13 Then in the same way another man appeared, distinguished by his white hair and dignity, and with an air of wondrous and majestic authority. 14 Onias then said of him, “This is a man* who loves his fellow Jews and fervently prays for the people and the holy city—the prophet of God, Jeremiah.” http://www.usccb.org/bible/2maccabees15

Rev 8:4 "The smoke of the incense along with the prayers of the holy ones went up before God from the hand of the angel." http://www.usccb.org/bible/revelation/8 --NishantXavierFor Christ the King 23:41, 29 July 2020 (EDT)

Go dig up Luther's grave and spit on it, if you think that will do any good. I heard that same garbage in 1959 in Catholic school and they've soften it now as I understand.
Bottomline: God's word is truth. Stick that catechism in the trash. RobSTrump 2Q2Q 23:42, 29 July 2020 (EDT)
Stop and think for a minute: If the Roman Catholic Church had begun teaching you the Bible at age 5, rather than why Martin Luther was wrong for calling their bluff 500 years ago, it would have saved you decades, if not a lifetime, of wondering in the wilderness where your carcass will fall cause you do not mix the gospel with faith. And you never have even recieved the Gospel of Grace from the Roman church. You only hear a gospel of wrath where the blood of Christ is insufficient for your salvation, and your blood is upon your own head. RobSTrump 2Q2Q 00:19, 31 July 2020 (EDT)
So long as you look the other way, like the unbiblical Assumption of Mary, the canonization of saints, vane repetitions like the Hail Mary which you know Christ explicitly condemns, you miss out on hearing the good news of salvation. This is precisely what Satan wants. What a coincidence. RobSTrump 2Q2Q 00:19, 31 July 2020 (EDT)

WE pray for the dead as God taught. You despise the dead as Luther taught. We'll see whom God approves on Judgment Day. Hint: It's the Church. NishantXavierFor Christ the King 23:51, 29 July 2020 (EDT)

in Christ
  • Romans 8:1 - There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. That's me. I'm in Christ Jesus. Are you in Christ Jesus? RobSTrump 2Q2Q 00:17, 30 July 2020 (EDT)

Hmmm, I must be among the lost. Here's the Gospel of Jesus Christ:

  • Romans 5:9 - being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. No Judgement. No Purgatory. RobSTrump 2Q2Q 00:39, 30 July 2020 (EDT)

C'mon Dataclarifier! C'mon IndependentSkeptic! C'mon NishantXavier! Tell me this is true! Just a simple "Yes" or "No". Don't give me any exceptions, exemptions, explanations or anything else. Just post up here and say "Yes, the word of God is true".

Poll: Vote yes or no

Vote Yes or No if the above two verses of the Bible are true.

Yes, it's true
No, it's a bunch of malarkey quoted out of context bla bla bla....



  • And the Word was made flesh....
  • Whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father

A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump

The Roman church not only has abandoned bible teaching in favor of catechism, it teaches catechism and other doctrines as if it were the Word of God. A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump. A little sin infects the whole body. A little false doctrine contaminates the whole church. RobSTrump 2Q2Q 20:20, 31 July 2020 (EDT)

User:Karajou

Final words

As to the worship and/or veneration of the saints:

3. "Thou shalt have no other gods before me."
4. "Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:"
5. "Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;"
6. "And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments." (Exodus 20:3-6) God Himself said you're not authorized to do it.

As to prayers for the dead:

1. "For all this I considered in my heart even to declare all this, that the righteous, and the wise, and their works, are in the hand of God: no man knoweth either love or hatred by all that is before them."
2. "All things come alike to all: there is one event to the righteous, and to the wicked; to the good and to the clean, and to the unclean; to him that sacrificeth, and to him that sacrificeth not: as is the good, so is the sinner; and he that sweareth, as he that feareth an oath."
3. "This is an evil among all things that are done under the sun, that there is one event unto all: yea, also the heart of the sons of men is full of evil, and madness is in their heart while they live, and after that they go to the dead."
4. "For to him that is joined to all the living there is hope: for a living dog is better than a dead lion."
5. "For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten."
6. "Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun." (Ecclesiastes 9:1-6) God is saying here that once you're dead, it's game over. No amount of praying will ever help your soul.

Isiah stating the obvious about praying for the dead:

19. "And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead?"
20. "To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them." (Isaiah 8:19-20)

And what did Jesus Christ say about the dead?

57. "And it came to pass, that, as they went in the way, a certain man said unto him, Lord, I will follow thee whithersoever thou goest."
58. "And Jesus said unto him, Foxes have holes, and birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay his head."
59. "And he said unto another, Follow me. But he said, Lord, suffer me first to go and bury my father."
60. "Jesus said unto him, Let the dead bury their dead: but go thou and preach the kingdom of God."
61. "And another also said, Lord, I will follow thee; but let me first go bid them farewell, which are at home at my house."
62. "And Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God." (Luke 9:57-62)

As to "purgatory", there is no mention of such a place anywhere within the Bible. Christ spoke of both Heaven and Hell multiple times, with Hell being the place to avoid at all costs. If purgatory exists, Christ would have said so; but the doctrine asserts that purgatory is some sort of middle-ground. With Christ, there is simply no middle-ground at all; you're either with Him or you're not, and even he said as much:

14. "And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;"
15. "I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot."
16. "So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth." (Revelation 3:14-16)

Christ ended that sin problem once and for all, so no purgatory:[16]

1. "Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering." (Romans 8:1)

Our salvation is based not on works, but what Christ did on the cross, which means no purgatory:

"…we wait for the blessed hope—the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, who gave himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify for himself a people that are his very own, eager to do what is good." (Titus 2:13-14)
"…the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin." (1John 1:7)
"…he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness." (1John 1:9)
"He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world." (1John 2:2)
"…because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy." (Hebrews 10:14)

Karajou (talk) 12:28, 1 August 2020 (EDT)

See also

References

  1. https://onepeterfive.com/purgatory-saved-fire/
  2. [Homilies on the Psalms 7:2]
  3. [Letter 51]
  4. A Treatise on the Soul, 35
  5. (City of God 21:13)
  6. Dialogues, Book 4, Chapter 39: Whether there be any Purgatory etc?
  7. https://www.newadvent.org/summa/7001.htm
  8. [St. John Chrysostom, Homilies on Phillipians, 3.]
  9. https://biblehub.com/john/5-24.htm
  10. https://www.biblehub.com/esv/2_corinthians/6.htm
  11. https://biblehub.com/john/3-18.htm
  12. Colossians 1:20
  13. Matthew 26:28
  14. 2 Corinthians 5:7
  15. Luke 23:43
  16. https://coldcasechristianity.com/writings/what-does-the-bible-say-about-purgatory/