Talk:Debate: Does Baptism regenerate or is it symbolic?

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Zechariah 13 - What is meant by fountain?

The passages from Zechariah make no reference to water. In fact, it specifically refers to Christ and the blood of Christ. RobSLive Free or Die 13:11, 17 May 2020 (EDT)

Hi Rob. A fountain seems to suggest water, doesn't it? If you read it in parallel with Acts 22, St. Paul relates "Rise and be baptized, and wash away your sins" suggesting the fountain of Baptism washes away sins, by the invocation of the Name of the Lord. Some of the other Prophets have also written of clean water washing away sins, e.g. the Prophet Ezekiel, who seems to be speaking of the future time of the restoration of Israel, when Israel will enter the New Covenant, and Israel and the Church will become one: "Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean" (Ez 36:25). NishantXavierFor Christ the King 11:28, 18 May 2020 (EDT)
No, it does not. It can be a fountain of blood. Or something else, such as the warning against adulatory and the strange woman throughout Proverbs Chapter 5 (beginning at verse 3) which culminates in verse 18:
Let thy fountain be blessed: and rejoice with the wife of thy youth
The fountain in this context of the whole of Chapter 5 is the urinary tract. RobSLive Free or Die 12:07, 18 May 2020 (EDT)

And Acts 22:16: "And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord."?

We are not discussing baptism, we are discussing the meaning of "fountain" in Zechariah Chapter 13. You have extrapolated an idiomatic meaning which is not there.
Let thy fountain be blessed is advice to young men how to avoid prostate problems in later life through inappropriate sexual conduct. A scriptural "fountain" does not necessarily imply water. RobSLive Free or Die 12:15, 18 May 2020 (EDT)
Your assumption and extrapolation of the meaning of "fountain" in Zechariah 13 has two devastating impacts:
(1) it twists and denies the redemptive value of the fountain of blood flowing from the House of David, and
(2) it exposes young men to sexually transmitted diseases and prostate problems by twisting the meaning of "fountain" in Proverbs chapter 5. RobSLive Free or Die 12:31, 18 May 2020 (EDT)

Hardly. God said He would open a fountain for sins to be cleansed. The Church Fathers like St. Gregory understand that of Baptism. The Church has always professed Baptism is for the remission of sins as in the Nicene Creed. This Tradition goes back centuries and millenia. In the article, I laid out 8 independent proofs. The first one was Zech 13:1. If you don't find that convincing, you can examine the other 7. NishantXavierFor Christ the King 12:43, 18 May 2020 (EDT)

  • God said He would open a fountain for sins to be cleansed.
Yes. A fountain of blood. RobSLive Free or Die 12:47, 18 May 2020 (EDT)

It's your assumption that it is blood. Read it in parallel with Ez 36:25 and you will see it is clean water. NishantXavierFor Christ the King 12:50, 18 May 2020 (EDT)

Void; that section you cite is specifically addressed to Israel, not the Christian church. Another extrapolation. RobSLive Free or Die 12:58, 18 May 2020 (EDT)

Before you extrapolate the meaning of the term "fountain" in Zechariah 13, you must explain what the terms "water", "fountain", and "stranger" mean in this passage:

15Drink waters out of thine own cistern, and running waters out of thine own well.
16Let thy fountains be dispersed abroad, and rivers of waters in the streets.
17Let them be only thine own, and not strangers' with thee.
18Let thy fountain be blessed: and rejoice with the wife of thy youth.
19Let her be as the loving hind and pleasant roe; let her breasts satisfy thee at all times; and be thou ravished always with her love.
20And why wilt thou, my son, be ravished with a strange woman, and embrace the bosom of a stranger?

RobSLive Free or Die 13:03, 18 May 2020 (EDT)

That passage is speaking about sexual immorality, and not about Baptism, and therefore is irrelevant to the topic. But I will answer, as the passage itself refutes your interpretation. Your argument is that fountain has no connection to water. But here fountain is correlated with water, and it is said drink waters out of thy one cistern, and running waters out of thine own well. It doesn't support your argument at all. I know what is meant in the passage; it is a caution against adultery. As one drinks even water from ones own well and not one's neighbor's, so much more one should not go to a neighbor's wife to commit adultery with her, but should enjoy married life with one's own wife. That aside, fountain and water being correlated even in this passage doesn't support your view. And you haven't answered the numerous New Testament passages. Ezekiel 36 is about the New Covenant, not the Old; when the Lord Jesus speaks to Nicodemus about rebirth of water and of spirit, He expects Nico to know those things; ergo, it was prophesied. NishantXavierFor Christ the King 23:18, 18 May 2020 (EDT)

So, in this passage a "fountain" is a penis. Water does not flow from a penis. RobSLive Free or Die 23:35, 18 May 2020 (EDT)
Drink waters out of thine own cistern, is monogamy, having sex with your own wife. Even "water" in this passage, is not H20. RobSLive Free or Die 23:39, 18 May 2020 (EDT)
Drink waters is quenching a sexual thirst. I am not even going to go there saying that drinking water is necessary for survival, which others may use as a rebuttal of Roman Catholic doctrine (the scripture allows for the vow of a Nazarene). My point is, you have no evidence whatsoever that the passage in Zechariah relates to H20. So there is no point moving forward to the New Covenant until this is resolved. RobSLive Free or Die 23:51, 18 May 2020 (EDT)
Now, while verse 17 is clear condemnation of wife swapping or wife-sharing, verse 16 may need some explanation. For this of course we look to the scripture. Marriage is honorable, and the bed undefiled Hebrews 13:14. There is nothing to be ashamed of being in a monogamous relationship, Let thy fountains be dispersed abroad, and rivers of waters in the streets, which is particularly an important lesson for society today.
Now, the question of, Who is the strange woman? Clue: it has not only a fleshly application as a warning against adulatory, but a very important spiritual application as well.
why wilt thou, my son, be ravished with a strange woman. Homework: Read Jeremiah chapters 3-4. RobSLive Free or Die 00:10, 19 May 2020 (EDT)

The middle section about Jerusalem talks about God pouring out a spirit of kindness and prayer that will come about when all Israel repents of having afflicted the injured. Perhaps it means, when it decisively occurs, a fountain of that "pouring" will be opened in Jerusalem for sin and impurity from which it will flow bountifully for all Israel. VargasMilan (talk) Tuesday, 00:44, 19 May 2020 (EDT)

  • In that day there shall be a fountain opened to the house of David
You're right. This passage addresses specifically Israel and does not address the gentiles. It speaks of the day Israel accepts the blood of Christ for redemption of sin. RobSLive Free or Die 01:02, 19 May 2020 (EDT)

So, a strange woman can also be a strange doctrine, which can be a misinterpretation or misapplication of scripture. The image of spiritual adulatory and fornication exists throughout scripture, often expressed as go whoring after other gods or play the harlot. It is unfaithfulness (See Isaiah 54:5, Thy maker is thine husband). Here why wilt thou, my son, be ravished with a strange woman can also be read why wilt thou be ravished (or embrace) a strange doctrine?, such as salvation by water and not blood, rejection of the sacrificial death of Christ, or infant baptism. RobSLive Free or Die 09:45, 19 May 2020 (EDT)

If you are wanting to extend the examples to infant baptism, you might do well to address the dedication of children to religious orders, which I'm sure pre-dates even Abraham. VargasMilan (talk) Wednesday, 14:07, 20 May 2020 (EDT)
That enlarges the subject immensely. RobSLive Free or Die 09:26, 22 May 2020 (EDT)
Do you think the two "pourings" represent the two baptisms in the New Testament? VargasMilan (talk) Friday, 17:06, 22 May 2020 (EDT)
Two baptisms? I only know of one - baptism in the Spirit - to be immersed in the Word of God. By "immersion" I mean eating of the body and blood of Jesus, being so immersed it becomes part of the fiber of your very being (being "immersed" in the word doesn't mean just having your nose stuck in the bible; it means partaking of the spirit to where it becomes part of your being. Be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear). RobSLive Free or Die 16:02, 24 May 2020 (EDT)
Correction: By two baptisms I assume you are referring to John's baptism and Christ's baptism. Perhaps I downplay the role of baptism(s). I am focused on salvation by grace. The grace of God exists for anyone who will listen (faith comes by hearing; he that hath ears to hear let him hear) and find it. By grace are ye saved through faith. A discussion of baptism puts the cart before the horse. Baptism plays no role in finding grace and building faith. RobSLive Free or Die 00:06, 26 May 2020 (EDT)

Who is the bride of Christ?

So I am going to dwell on this misinterpretation and misapplication of the term "fountain" from which you extrapolate the idea it refers to water baptism and have built an entire false doctrine that spreads into the New Covenant.

To do this, we are going to examine Law vs Grace in Jeremiah chapter 3. Here we discover the shocking revelation that God is divorced.

They say, If a man put away his wife, and she go from him, and become another man's, shall he return unto her again? shall not that land be greatly polluted? but thou hast played the harlot with many lovers; yet return again to me, saith the Lord.

The first part here is based on the Law of Moses, Dueteronomy 24: 2-4:

if after she leaves his house she becomes the wife of another man, 3 and her second husband dislikes her and writes her a certificate of divorce, gives it to her and sends her from his house, or if he dies, 4 then her first husband, who divorced her, is not allowed to marry her again...

But God says,

yet return again to me, saith the Lord,

i.e. the New Testament gospel of forgiveness and salvation. God is willing to break his own law to take back his spiritually adulterous wife, Israel. So I am going to ask the question again:

why wilt thou, my son, be ravished with a strange woman (or doctrine), since the Gospel of Salvation has existed since the foundations of the earth was laid? RobSLive Free or Die 10:20, 19 May 2020 (EDT)

You are becoming confused. Here are the facts (1) Zechariah says there will be a fountain for washing the sinner. (2) St. Paul in the new Testament says he was told to wash away his sins in Baptism. (3) Therefore, Baptism is the foretold fountain for washing away sins. The New Testament illuminates the Old Testament, but you don't want to go to it. Ezekiel foretold God would sprinkle clean water on them and make them clean. Our Lord Jesus expected Nicodemus, a Teacher of Israel, to know the things He said about being born of Water and of the Spirit. You have not explained the Washing of Regeneration in Tit 3:5, the Washing of Water and the Word in Eph 5:26, and St. Peter's clear words that "Baptism now saves us". NishantXavierFor Christ the King 11:18, 19 May 2020 (EDT)

  • In that day there shall be a fountain opened to the house of David
To the House of David. It does not say to gentile sinners. It says nothing of water. Jeramiah 3:1 says
  • yet return again to me, saith the Lord,
it says nothing of in that day. It says now, Today is the day of salvation. You have provided nothing to support a house of cards built on misunderstanding and misapplication of scripture. RobSLive Free or Die 11:39, 19 May 2020 (EDT)
In the Old Testament, salvation is not a future event. It has always existed. Rebellion against God prevented many people from finding it.
Before proceeding, answer this question: Were any people saved before Jesus was born? RobSLive Free or Die 11:42, 19 May 2020 (EDT)

The Church is the New Israel. Even the prophesy of Jeremiah of the New Covenant speaks of the House of Israel, yet St. Paul applies it to the Church.

If there is to be a dialogue, it has to be both ways. Here are my questions to you (1) How can St. Paul say "rise and be baptized and wash away your sins" if sins are not washed away in baptism? (2) How can St. Peter say "baptism now saves you" if baptism does not regenerate? (3) How can St. Paul say He saved us by the washing of regeneration, if baptism is not a washing of regeneration? If you answer those questions - whatever be the answer - then we can move forward in a two-way discussion.

As for whether people were saved in the Old Testament, they went to a place called the Bosom of Abraham or Limbo of the Patriarchs. After Christ's death, He came and took them to Heaven, to see God Face to Face. Thus in Luk 16, it is said the Angels carried the soul of Lazarus there NishantXavierFor Christ the King 11:54, 19 May 2020 (EDT)

I'll answer the same way I began my dialogue with Dataclafier, Romans 10:9-10. Paul said,
  • 9If you declare with your mouth, "Jesus is LORD," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.
Nowhere does Paul (a) mention water, fountain, or baptism; (b) an infant cannot profess faith in God.
You are approaching the absurd position espoused by Dataclarifier that Christ died to save helpless babies and infants with no faith, but people who profess faith are not saved. RobSLive Free or Die 12:02, 19 May 2020 (EDT)
And all this is moot unless you can tell me what salvation is. I hope you can do a better job than Dataclarifier, cause he certainly doesn't know. RobSLive Free or Die 12:06, 19 May 2020 (EDT)

That's not an answer. Christ did not come to condemn babies but to save them. He came for all. Babies too have the gift of the Holy Spirit promised to them and receive Him in Baptism. They are born of the flesh and are born again to eternal life in Baptism. Nobody whomsoever is saying that those with faith will not be saved. When you come of age, you must profess the Faith. Ever heard of the Nicene Creed? We know Jesus Christ is God, True Son of God and Savior of the world. We know that by His Blood we are washed from every sin. We know He gave His Body and His Blood in Holy Communion. But Baptism is not a symbol, as some Protestants erroneously thought, totally departing from 1500 years of unbroken Christian Tradition. You said the Orthodox Church is orthodox, but the Orthodox Church also holds with us that Baptism regenerates the soul. Catholic-Orthodox Re-union is almost complete. Recently, the Patriarch of Constantinople, Patriarch Bartholomew, said Catholics and Orthodox believe the same and re-union is inevitable.

What is salvation? Salvation means to receive the remission of our sins and the free gift of the Holy Spirit, God's Gift of Grace in Christ.NishantXavierFor Christ the King 12:12, 19 May 2020 (EDT)

Free gift, huh? Why does it have be paid for by baptism? RobSLive Free or Die 12:20, 19 May 2020 (EDT)

Baptism is God's Free Gift. Did you read what St. Gregory said about it? "Baptism is God's most beautiful and magnificent gift....We call it gift, grace, anointing, enlightenment, garment of immortality, bath of rebirth, seal, and most precious gift. It is called gift because it is conferred on those who bring nothing of their own; grace since it is given even to the guilty; Baptism because sin is buried in the water; anointing for it is priestly and royal as are those who are anointed; enlightenment because it radiates light; clothing since it veils our shame; bath because it washes; and seal as it is our guard and the sign of God's Lordship.10"

You can't save yourself just like you can't baptize yourself. But you can receive the free gift of Baptism as a Grace of God in Jesus Christ Our Lord. As explained, if you have already been baptized, the Sacramental Gift you need next is Holy Communion. NishantXavierFor Christ the King 12:23, 19 May 2020 (EDT)

Gregory ain't the word of God. RobSLive Free or Die 12:31, 19 May 2020 (EDT)

Comment on the foregoing

A personal comment (not intended to be solicitation to leave the Roman Catholic Church, or for that matter any Protestant denomination).

In five decades of discussing and debating infant baptism and the alleged "regenerative power" of water, I have never met on single solitary advocate of Roman Catholic doctrine with any knowledge or understanding of scripture (note: I use the biblical terms "knowledge and understanding" rather than the colloquial "knowledge and comprehension" per the exhortation in Proverbs 4:5-7 [1] and James 1:5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him and Jesus, ask and it shall be given. I have never meet a former Roman Catholic who followed this exhortation to read the Bible and ask for understanding from God, and did not come away saying that Roman Catholic doctrine conflicts with the Word of God.)

Back to our understanding of Biblical idioms. I have made the case, per context and wisdom I asked God for, that "fountain" in Proverbs chapter 5 refers to a penis, calling into question whether other scholars, ignorant of scripture, have mistakenly assumed "fountain" in Zechariah is a reference to water or water baptism. But Catholic scholars are not alone in making assumptions or teaching some strange interpretation of scriptural idioms. Hebrew, like modern English, has several words to refer to the male sex organ. For laughs, read some Protestant commentaries on the meaning of Canticle of Canticles 5:4,

  • My beloved put in his hand by the hole of the door, and my bowels were moved for him.

Many Protestant commentaries have, like their Catholic brethren, either foolishly or deliberately reinterpreted the meaning of this verse, including what a "bowel movement" is ("I saw his hand opening the door, and I got so excited I pooped my pants"). It's easy to see, once wisdom is granted from God, how and why these misunderstandings and mistranslations take place.

A bolt latch refers to the male sex organ that couples with "the door" or female sex organ, the entry point; "put in his hand by the hole of the door" means he did a Joe Biden on her, and no, she didn't have a bowel movement.

The main point I make here is Roman Catholic doctrine, based upon a misinterpretation of the so-called "Great Commission" proclaiming the bishop of Rome as the "Vicar of Christ" nullifies James 1:5, humbling yourself and asking God for wisdom. RobSLive Free or Die 20:37, 21 May 2020 (EDT)

The Great Commission is probably the single most important calling to the Church today, beside to be holy and faithful in all things. The Great Commission itself refutes the recent idea that Baptism is meaningless, for otherwise Christ would not have laid so much emphasis on Baptism along with Evangelism. Christ only refers to the Name of the Holy Trinity during His command for Baptism. Have you never seen the sick healed? If you believe the sick can be healed in accordance with Jam 5:15 "And the prayer of faith shall save the sick man: and the Lord shall raise him up: and if he be in sins, they shall be forgiven him.", by faith and in the Name of Jesus, as the Apostles showed e.g. St. Peter (Acts 4:10), why will you doubt that the Name of the Holy Trinity, the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, will heal the spiritual sickness of sins? I think the case is already solidly established. If someone still disagrees, I can only say, pray, and continue to study the Word. God may surprise you one day. NishantXavierFor Christ the King 11:33, 22 May 2020 (EDT)
I've read the bible through cover to cover many times. Can't find any reference to "Great Commission". Show me chapter and verse where it is. RobSLive Free or Die 12:17, 22 May 2020 (EDT)

Gospel of St. Matthew - 28:[18] "And Jesus coming, spoke to them, saying: All power is given to Me in heaven and in earth. [19] Going therefore, teach ye all nations; baptizing them in the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. [20] Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world." NishantXavierFor Christ the King 13:01, 22 May 2020 (EDT)

Mat 4:19 as well: "[19] And he saith to them: Come ye after Me, and I will make you to be fishers of men."NishantXavierFor Christ the King 13:03, 22 May 2020 (EDT)

Mat 9:38: "[38] Pray ye therefore the Lord of the Harvest, that He send forth labourers into His harvest."NishantXavierFor Christ the King 13:04, 22 May 2020 (EDT)

So there is no "Great Commission" in the text. What we have here, again, is what Jesus spoke of Matthew 15:7-9,
  • Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition. Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying, This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me. But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
Neither Isaiah, Matthew, or Jesus speak of a 'Great Commission'. It is a doctrine of men, rendering the Word of God of no effect. RobSLive Free or Die 13:28, 22 May 2020 (EDT)
Yeah you know what arguing from silence means? Transformations having to do with Kingdom of Heaven may require new words like new wineskins for new wine.
But sometimes terminology is abused when it prejudges certain facts not in evidence, or characterizations for which no foundation is provided. In fact I wish that Conservapedia would do just that with liberal euphemisms.
Or if the term melts together the category of the idea with another category that is irrelevant or too big because of excess abstraction. There are many ways to mess up the definition of something.
But well-composed ones like Trinity and Original Sin bring biblical ideas together to help focus and guide our thinking and acting—in, of and through biblical testimony, of course. VargasMilan (talk) Friday, 14:06, 22 May 2020 (EDT)
I understand what you're saying. My personal view is that turning a fairly simple concept into an official doctrine can obscure the meaning, making it esoteric and inaccessible to everyone but only to the enlightened few and intellectuals. God, of coarse, is opposed to this. Original Sin is not a mystery - it is pride. The trinity is a teaching device. I'm reminded of the verse in the Koran (Surah 6:101), according to one translation,
  • Limitless is He is His glory, and sublimely exalted above anything that men may devise by way of definition: the Originator of the heavens and the earth! How could it be that He should have a child...
Simple logic, and not divine inspiration, could tell you that if He is "limitless in His glory" and Originator of all things he would have the power to have a child. Logic again would tell you that, according to this doctrine, man is more powerful than God if only mere mortals can have children.
This type of highfalutin spiritual language, basically, is intended to be deceptive and lead a person away from God. If any of you lacks wisdom, ask God and he will give it to you. God doesn't say he'll take it under advisement. It's a promise. A guarantee. Just as forgiveness and salvation require asking God for those things he has already promised. RobSLive Free or Die 16:12, 23 May 2020 (EDT)
Sometimes if you don't understand something completely, you don't understand it at all. I'm not referring to you BTW. VargasMilan (talk) Saturday, 16:47, 23 May 2020 (EDT)
FYI: there is an important difference between "doctrine" and "articles of faith" that appear in a creed. Doctrine is optional for a layman to profess, but gives the reasons how the articles of faith came to be. VargasMilan (talk) Saturday, 17:13, 23 May 2020 (EDT)

What are you talking about, Rob? The Commission to go and teach all nations, to baptize them and evangelize them, is what is called the Great Commission. Where in the Bible did Jesus give anyone the authority to form many churches? Answer: nowhere. He founded one Church (Mat 16:18) and made St. Peter the Chief Bishop or Pope of this Church. All Christians should unite with the Pope, and carry out the mission to baptize and evangelize all NishantXavierFor Christ the King 16:14, 22 May 2020 (EDT)

The church does not give salvation. God does. Read James 1:5 again:
  • If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, and it shall be given him.
Lack wisdom = understanding the Bible. It does not say ask the church. RobSLive Free or Die 15:41, 23 May 2020 (EDT)

==Read Mat 18:16-18. What does the Lord say about one who refuses to hear the judgment of the Church? He says such a person should be admonished. God gave the Keys to St. Peter and the Apostles, the first Pope and Bishops of the Church, to bind and loose. What does that power of the Keys imply? Read Acts 15. When a doctrinal dispute broke out, the Church gathered in Council and authoritatively settled the dispute.

Mat 18:16 "But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. 17And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican. 18Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven." NishantXavierFor Christ the King 16:28, 23 May 2020 (EDT)

The church ain't God. RobSLive Free or Die

God gave His Power to Bind and Loose to His Church. It's right there in your Gospel. King James version also. How will Protestants explain that?

Btw, we pray for Wisdom all the time. In the Church's Liturgies and our personal prayers as well. But whenever some doctrinal or disciplinary dispute breaks out, all Christians should gather together, pray for Wisdom together and try to sort it out in Council. There is a Third Nicene Council scheduled to be held in 2025. Perhaps all Christians can pray for Wisdom there and work it out? NishantXavierFor Christ the King 16:33, 23 May 2020 (EDT)

Ok, thy faith has made thee whole (words of Jesus); by grace you have been saved through faith (Paul). Until you accept this God-given, doctrinal truth, you are not saved. All your baptizing and evangelizing amounts to nothing. RobSLive Free or Die 16:49, 23 May 2020 (EDT)

The Church has judged your false opinions as heresy. God has bound and loosed through His Church. You are in error. I showed you the clear Biblical passages that Baptism washes away sins, it is the Washing of Water and the Word, the Washing of Regeneration, that Baptism now saves etc. You have no answer and no reverence for holy Baptism NishantXavierFor Christ the King 16:56, 23 May 2020 (EDT)

I assume you mean the Roman Church. The Roman Church has many, many confusing and contradictory stances on the Word of God (See Matthew 4:4 It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.) The Roman Church needs to clarify its stance on the Word of God. RobSLive Free or Die 17:34, 23 May 2020 (EDT)
Dataclarifer for instance, the expert on Roman Catholic doctrine and theology, has thus far over the span of two months refused to answer if the Epistles of Paul are the Word God. I know the answer, and I'm sure he does, too. RobSLive Free or Die 17:40, 23 May 2020 (EDT)

The Bible is the Word of God. Protestants don't have 6 important Old Testament Books, though, which were received in the early Church. There are 72 Books, not 66, in the Bible. All the epistles of St. Paul are the Word of God. St. Peter warned some would bring in sects and distort St. Paul's teachings, which St. Peter said were hard to understand, and that's what Protestantism did. Protestant doctrines are the words of men and false. NishantXavierFor Christ the King 17:51, 23 May 2020 (EDT)

This comment makes no sense (other than it's anti-Protestant propaganda value). (a) Protestant doctrine does not add anything to scripture which Roman Catholic doctrine allegedly agrees is divinely inspired; (b) there is no "Protestant catechism" that I'm aware of that Protestant's claim divine inspiration for. Your claim that "Protestant doctrines are the words of men and false" seems exaggerated, since alleged "Protestant doctrines" are solely the 66 books of the bible which the Roman Church allegedly agrees are divinely inspired. RobSLive Free or Die 12:19, 24 May 2020 (EDT)

Protestants wrongly interpret even the 66 books you have. For e.g. 1 Cor 3:13-15 teaches Purgatory for bad Christians and Crown of Rewards in Heaven for good Christians, but you deny both, having no understanding of the matter, nor the true Wisdom that comes from God. The rewards of those who do many good works with faith in Christ will be great. In the Book of Revelation, we see Mary the Mother of God, the Queen of Israel and of the Church, gloriously Crowned in Heaven (Rev 12:1) because Mary lived a holy and sinless life, being Full of Grace and Blessed among women. Protestants wrongly interpret all this. If you had the Book of Macchabees, which Luther impiously took out from the Bible, you would know the Saints in Heaven pray for us, as the Prophet Jeremiah did in that book for his people from Heaven. You would also know that the sacrifices of the Priests and the people are always to be offered for the departed, as we do in the Sacrifice of the Mass. NishantXavierFor Christ the King 14:34, 24 May 2020 (EDT)

Oh, I see. The sacrificial death of Christ isn't quite enough to absolve someone of sin. The sinner still has to pay for it.
Sweeping generalizations such as "Protestants believe ... " or "Catholics believe ..." denies the simple doctrinal truth of James 1:5, If any of you lacks wisdom, ask God and he will give to you. It is not addressed to church elders, teachers, and scholars of doctrine. It is addressed to individual believers. RobSLive Free or Die 18:24, 24 May 2020 (EDT)

Evidence of the prophetic and divine inspiration of scripture

Two questions: How many chapters are in Isaiah?
Secondly: What are the opening verses of chapter 40 of Isaiah (the New Testament portion of Isaiah) that corroborates all four Gospels as the "beginning of the Gospel of Jesus Christ" (minus the genealogies of Matthew and Luke)?
Note: Isaiah has 39 old testament chapters and 27 new testament chapters; if you are going to deny the prophetic and divine inspiration of Isaiah and the 66 books of the bible, show internal evidence from scripture to support your assertion of 72 books, not some 1,500 year after the fact doctrine of men to support your assertion. RobSLive Free or Die 11:55, 24 May 2020 (EDT)

Mark 1:1-3 The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God; 2As it is written in the prophets, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee. 3The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.

Isaiah 40:1-3 Comfort ye, comfort ye my people, saith your God. 2Speak ye comfortably to Jerusalem, and cry unto her, that her warfare is accomplished, that her iniquity is pardoned: for she hath received of the LORD'S hand double for all her sins. 3The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God. 4Every valley shall be exalted, and every mountain and hill shall be made low: and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough places plain: 5And the glory of the LORD shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.

John 1:23 He said, I am the voice of one crying in the wilderness, Make straight the way of the Lord, as said the prophet Esaias.

Matthew 3:1-3 (after the pre-ministry and genealogical background information): In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea, 2And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand. 3For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.

Luke 3:3-6 (after the pre-ministry and genealogical background information): 4As it is written in the book of the words of Esaias the prophet, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight. 5Every valley shall be filled, and every mountain and hill shall be brought low; and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough ways shall be made smooth; 6And all flesh shall see the salvation of God.

Isaiah has 66 chapters; the canon of scripture has 66 books. Adding 6 non-canonical, historical books, 1500 years after the fact, (as the Book of Mormon likewise does) obscures and distorts the internal corroboratory evidence from scripture of divine inspiration. Show internal evidence from scripture that the 6 historical books have divine inspiration. RobSLive Free or Die 12:58, 24 May 2020 (EDT)

And if you think this is crazy, explain why there are four gospels and the numerical corroboratory evidence between them. Mark corroborates Matthew, Luke and John; Mathew corroborates Luke and John; Luke corroborates John. 7 instances of corroborated evidence from 4 witnesses. RobSLive Free or Die 13:12, 24 May 2020 (EDT)

Jeremiah 3:1

I think the most important thing we've learned from this discussion is that the Gospel of Grace is preached in Jeremiah chapter 3 verse 1.

  • They say, If a man put away his wife, and she go from him, and become another man's, shall he return unto her again? shall not that land be greatly polluted? but thou hast played the harlot with many lovers; yet return again to me, saith the Lord.

God commanded to stone the adulterer, yet here he is defying his own Law and asking his adulterous wife to come home (For God so loved the world...). No, evangelism and the Gospel of Salvation did not begin with the Great Commission. RobSLive Free or Die 16:29, 23 May 2020 (EDT)

Isaiah wrote at one point, Israel paid double for her sin, and I think he was refering to the Babylonian captivity that Jeremiah tried to stop. VargasMilan (talk) Saturday, 16:41, 23 May 2020 (EDT)
Yes, that's basically is the law, passages such as the thief shall repay seven times, and ye have robbed me in tithes and offerings, etc. RobSLive Free or Die 16:53, 23 May 2020 (EDT)

That passage is speaking about Israel's return to the Lord. Israel was unfaithful to the Covenant. But the Lord in His Mercy will graciously welcome her back. Evangelizing the great nation of Israel with the saving Gospel of Jesus Christ Our Lord is of the utmost importance for the Church.

Comment: yes and no. Today is the day of salvation. God didn't say, "Wait a few hundred years and Jesus will come and then everything will be restored". God, through Jeremiah, was preaching grace. And God was willing to toss his entire law into the trash which was written for sinners. Ye are not under law but under grace. RobSLive Free or Die 16:57, 23 May 2020 (EDT)
Wait a minute. Adultery in a marriage and figurative spiritual adultery against God can only have analogical punishments since the crimes are analogical and not really in the same juridicial group. VargasMilan (talk) Saturday, 17:37, 23 May 2020 (EDT)
God is preaching grace, forgiveness, and forbearance here. Throughout scripture early on, man's relationship to God is pictured as close and intimate as a conjugal relationship. It is not institutionalized, as some like to make it. And that image persists in Christ returning for his bride. RobSLive Free or Die 18:02, 23 May 2020 (EDT)

Do you believe Christians should evangelize non-Christians or not, Rob? Our Lord evangelized. His Apostles evangelized. The Catholic Church has always evangelized. There are 1.3 billion Catholic Christians in the world, from Australia to Asia to Europe to Africa to Latin America to North America. On all continents everywhere. All Protestant denominations united (some 10,000 by some counts) are about 1.2 billion. Catholics and other Christians should unite and evangelize the remaining 5 billion people in the world who are in danger of perishing without the saving knowledge of Jesus Christ Our Lord NishantXavierFor Christ the King 16:44, 23 May 2020 (EDT)

I'm evangelizing the lost right now with the Word of God. RobSLive Free or Die 16:51, 23 May 2020 (EDT)

Typical of anti-Catholic Protestants. Zero interest in reaching non-Christians or promoting the common cause of the Gospel and Christendom. Instead spend all your time attacking Catholics. Anti-Catholic Protestantism is the very worst thing that ever happened to Christianity. Catholic Christianity with great Saints like Saint Francis Xavier would have evangelized the world by now if not for you anti-Catholics attacking and dividing Christianity. You have no answer to those clear Biblical proofs I gave you that Jesus Christ solemnly commanded you in the Gospel to hear and obey His Church. NishantXavierFor Christ the King 16:54, 23 May 2020 (EDT)

Laying aside your assumption, let me ask you this: What role does faith have in salvation? RobSLive Free or Die 16:58, 23 May 2020 (EDT)

Do you believe in the Once Saved, Always Saved Heresy? I can give you at least Ten Biblical Verses against it. Probably good subject for a new essay. Faith is the beginning of salvation, not the end of salvation. Justification!=Salvation. Justification+Sanctification+Perseverance in Grace=Salvation. NishantXavierFor Christ the King 17:02, 23 May 2020 (EDT)

Your question is based upon relativist thinking. What I believe does not matter. I do not determine what is truth for me or what is God's truth. RobSLive Free or Die 17:17, 23 May 2020 (EDT)

Protestantism is relativism and relativistic thinking. That's why there are 10,000 denominations in place of the One Church. The Bible teaches those truly sanctified by the Blood of Christ can still fall away. Thus, there is no once saved, always saved. See Hebrews 10:19. Other examples later.NishantXavierFor Christ the King 17:42, 23 May 2020 (EDT)

Roman Catholicism is one of the biggest offenders in historical revisionism, as you've repeated here several times. All this business about the "bishop of Rome" didn't arise until a millenia after the fact. RobSLive Free or Die 18:07, 23 May 2020 (EDT)
Look, don't get me started. My intention here is not to attack the Roman Catholic Church. My intention is to spread the Word of God. Unfortunately, you tainted your argument about the authority of the Bible when you began citing doctrines of men. RobSLive Free or Die 18:10, 23 May 2020 (EDT)
It's easy to have a misunderstanding or misinterpretation of the Bible, such as in Zechariah 13. That's what the exhortation in James chapter 1 is for. But to bolster an argument with doctrinal assertions of a church, any church - Protestant or Catholic, adds no weight to the argument. RobSLive Free or Die 18:23, 23 May 2020 (EDT)

The Sacraments of the One Church (not many churches) are important. Baptism is the first of them. After that comes Holy Communion. If you are not regularly receiving Holy Communion, you cannot grow in sanctification nor attain holiness. Hebrews says "strive for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord". See what St. Paul writes in 1 Cor 11 about the Body and Blood of Christ. Only the Catholic Church has that in the Eucharist. NishantXavierFor Christ the King 01:04, 24 May 2020 (EDT)

Many years ago I had a few Morman friends and looked into the Morman church and Morman doctrine. As a veteran catholic, I came away wiith the impression there are many many similarities between the two, the first being the obsession with the claim of being the "true church", rather than bible teaching or preaching the gospel. RobSLive Free or Die 01:11, 24 May 2020 (EDT)
The Catholic Encyclopedia stated that a baptism cannot be repeated without blasphemy. So you're wrong. The Catholic Church does recognize other churches' baptism; the Catholic Church doesn't consider itself the only church that can administer that sacrament. So what else are you not sure of? You probably need to examine your opinions right away, especially the ones you haven't double-checked. VargasMilan (talk) Sunday, 08:59, 24 May 2020 (EDT)
Not really. A person's salvation is not guided by church doctrine, but rather by an individual's relationship with God, i.e. the word of God. It is an intimate relationship. Church doctrine and God's word are often at odds. When in doubt, God's word is the default position. RobSLive Free or Die 11:22, 24 May 2020 (EDT)
Excuse me, Rob. I was describing what the Catholic Church did, not whether it was good or bad. And I was saying Xavier was wrong about doctrine because the Catholic Encyclopedia contradicted him, not that you were in any way wrong. VargasMilan (talk) Sunday, 13:30, 24 May 2020 (EDT)
Oh, sorry. Thanks for clarifying that. RobSLive Free or Die 14:28, 24 May 2020 (EDT)

If saying a short prayer believing Jesus died for our sins will guarantee you are saved, then all practicing Catholics are saved. Every Catholic believes Jesus is God and died for our sins. We receive His Precious Blood in Holy Communion. Because Protestants have the false doctrine of men that Holy Communion is not the Body and Blood of Christ (contradicted by the Lord; see John 6:48-60; 1 Cor 10:15-18; 1 Cor 11:23-30), they don't believe in what the Lord and His Apostles taught. Catholics means Universal or the Whole. Only Catholic Christians believe the whole, complete, Truth. NishantXavierFor Christ the King 14:30, 24 May 2020 (EDT)

This is a category error. The Bible teaches us Jesus called the Last Supper a memorial meal. Sometimes, Xavier, I think you are an informant because you're too absent-minded to be for real. You should know words taken out of order lead to heresy. And saying Jesus IS God goes beyond saying Jesus is our God. VargasMilan (talk) Sunday, 15:09, 24 May 2020 (EDT)
catholic means jew + gentile = universal. RobSLive Free or Die 17:23, 24 May 2020 (EDT)

I am a Catholic Christian, Vargas. Are you a Catholic Christian or an Evangelical Christian? I much prefer an irenic discussion to a polemical one. But I admit I get angry when Catholics are attacked. This essay was meant to be a pleasant theological discussion about Holy Baptism, that is all. As regards the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, please see this tract from Catholic Answers: Holy Mass is a Memorial Sacrifice. Anamnesis in the Greek refers to a memorial offering offered as a Sacrifice: "Thus, Protestant early Church historian J. N. D. Kelly writes that in the early Church “the Eucharist was regarded as the distinctively Christian sacrifice. . . . Malachi’s prediction (1:10–11) that the Lord would reject Jewish sacrifices and instead would have ‘a pure offering’ made to him by the Gentiles in every place was seized upon by Christians as a prophecy of the Eucharist. The Didache indeed actually applies the term thusia, or sacrifice, to the Eucharist." NishantXavierFor Christ the King 15:19, 24 May 2020 (EDT)

<blows whitle>Time out. Gentlemen, let's return to civility.
Now, this recalls a detailed discussion Dataclarifier and I had (diff available) if, after you take a crap, you loose the spirit of Jesus. Do you wish to read the diffs before we advance this discussion? RobSLive Free or Die 16:50, 24 May 2020 (EDT)
Here's the diff; I can't find any scriptural basis for his response. RobSLive Free or Die 17:12, 24 May 2020 (EDT)

All right. Let's have a civil, fraternal and gentlemanly discussion. NishantXavierFor Christ the King 18:21, 24 May 2020 (EDT)

Catechism of the Catholic Church on Baptism:

I. What is This Sacrament Called?

1214 This sacrament is called Baptism, after the central rite by which it is carried out: to baptize (Greek baptizein) means to "plunge" or "immerse"; the "plunge" into the water symbolizes the catechumen's burial into Christ's death, from which he rises up by resurrection with him, as "a new creature."6

1215 This sacrament is also called "the washing of regeneration and renewal by the Holy Spirit," for it signifies and actually brings about the birth of water and the Spirit without which no one "can enter the kingdom of God."7

1216 "This bath is called enlightenment, because those who receive this [catechetical] instruction are enlightened in their understanding . . . ."8 Having received in Baptism the Word, "the true light that enlightens every man," the person baptized has been "enlightened," he becomes a "son of light," indeed, he becomes "light" himself:9

Baptism is God's most beautiful and magnificent gift....We call it gift, grace, anointing, enlightenment, garment of immortality, bath of rebirth, seal, and most precious gift. It is called gift because it is conferred on those who bring nothing of their own; grace since it is given even to the guilty; Baptism because sin is buried in the water; anointing for it is priestly and royal as are those who are anointed; enlightenment because it radiates light; clothing since it veils our shame; bath because it washes; and seal as it is our guard and the sign of God's Lordship.10

6 ⇒ 2 Cor 5:17; ⇒ Gal 6:15; Cf. Rom 6:34; ⇒ Col 2:12.

7 ⇒ Titus 3:5; ⇒ Jn 3:5[ETML:C/].

8 St. Justin, Apol. 1, 61, 12: PG 6, 421.

9 ⇒ Jn 1:9; ⇒ 1 Thess 5:5; ⇒ Heb 10:32; ⇒ Eph 5:8.

10 St. Gregory of Nazianzus, Oratio 40, 3-4: PG 36, 361C. NishantXavierFor Christ the King 12:52, 18 May 2020 (EDT)

You're doing a Dataclarifier, refusing to answer specific questions and spamming the page with extraneous nonsense irrelevant to the question raised. RobSLive Free or Die 13:00, 18 May 2020 (EDT)

Not at all. The topic is Baptism, not sexual sin, nor any other such thing. A Catechism on Baptism is perfectly related to the topic. The Catholic Church is the world's largest Christian denomination (it is more than that imo, but it is at least that), larger than all of non-Catholic Christianity combined, and is one of the main Churches (along with Orthodox, and some historical Evangelicals) that teaches Baptismal Regeneration. Because of the many Scriptures and Church Fathers cited in its brief explanation, it is perfectly consonant with solid theological discussion on the subject. You could consider and perhaps research if there is any serious Protestant explanations of John 3:5, Titus 3:5 and other such passages out there. NishantXavierFor Christ the King 23:18, 18 May 2020 (EDT)

My point is, you didn't respond to valid criticism in the above thread, but rather posted a bunch of extraneous spam as a response. RobSLive Free or Die 23:43, 18 May 2020 (EDT)
Just to get an idea of the general idea of the RobSmith-Dataclarifier-(et. al). dispute, is it really just a debate over Catholic and Protestant interpretations of the Bible? Now I'm far from a Bible expert, but isn't the Roman Catholic Church the one original church based off of and founded off of Jesus Christ's teachings? After all, all other Christian denominations were founded by individuals who had different interpretations of the Bible. Also, irrelevant, but I have a humorous prediction that Dataclarifier's favorite meat is Spam. --LiberaltearsJust say no to quid pro joe! | Free Roger Stone! 00:08, 19 May 2020 (EDT)
What is commonly referred to as the 'Roman Catholic Church' didn't arise until the the 16th century. And no, the original churches were in Jerusalem, Antioch, the '7 churches in Asia' (modern Turkey); then the churches in the Hellespont. The Roman Church has bloated its history and claims since the 11th century. Orthodox Christianity is orthodox; the Roman Church is the whacked-out breakaway sect with unorthodox doctrines and wild claims about itself. RobSLive Free or Die 00:17, 19 May 2020 (EDT)
Alright, fine. Catholic Church, as there is a difference specified here. --LiberaltearsJust say no to quid pro joe! | Free Roger Stone! 00:24, 19 May 2020 (EDT)
Yes. 'Catholic' come from the Epistolan Katholika or Catholic Epistles. Sometimes referred to as the Catholic Epistles of Paul, but it really starts with the book of Acts. Now, for all this dispute between me and Dataclarifier, our discussion left off when I asked him point blank, "Does the Roman Catholic Church accept the Epistles of Paul as the Word of God? (diff available). A pretty simple question any one should be able to answer. He never answered it, but has been on a non-stop troll campaign against me including tens of thousands of bytes of cut n paste text and an infinite block. RobSLive Free or Die 01:36, 19 May 2020 (EDT)
Oh, and no, the RobSmith-Dataclarifier-(et. al). dispute, is not really just a debate over Catholic and Protestant interpretations of the Bible. I am a small "c" catholic. RobSLive Free or Die 00:20, 19 May 2020 (EDT)
What do you mean by "small "c" catholic"? And what about Dataclarifier? --LiberaltearsJust say no to quid pro joe! | Free Roger Stone! 00:24, 19 May 2020 (EDT)
I was raised Catholic- devout Catholic at that. While I embrace many so-called "Protestant' doctrines and fellowship with many other small "c" catholics and Protestants of all stripes, I've never felt totally accepted in Protestant culture which often can be virulently anti-Catholic. I can't deny I'm catholic anymore than the most atheist Jew can deny being a Jew. Dataclarifier OTOH, seems adamantly at war with anything non-Roman Catholic, particularly Protestant moreso than Jews, Buddhists or Muslims. And he doesn't even realize some of his understanding of Roman Catholic Doctrine conflicts with what Roman Catholic doctrine is. He's a church historian, nothing more. And lacks a serious understanding of the Bible. RobSLive Free or Die 01:10, 19 May 2020 (EDT)
For example, while I find trivia like Bogomil: Bogomilism fascinating, it has absolutely nothing to do with my salvation, but he seems to think it does. RobSLive Free or Die 01:15, 19 May 2020 (EDT)
Ah, interesting. --LiberaltearsJust say no to quid pro joe! | Free Roger Stone! 01:24, 19 May 2020 (EDT)

Protestantism's claims are not historical. All history bears witness that the Catholic Church is the original Church of Christ that goes back to the Lord Himself and to His First Apostles. Here is an eminent Protestant Historian, Philip Schaff, admit this simple historical fact: "The succession list of bishops in the apostolic see of Rome of the first two centuries as provided by Schaff (volume 2, page 166) is --

St. Peter (d. 64 or 67) St. Linus (67-76) St. Anacletus (76-88) St. Clement I (88-97) St. Evaristus (97-105) St. Alexander I (105-115) St. Sixtus I (115-125) St. Telesphorus (125-136) St. Hyginus (136-140) St. Pius I (140-155) St. Anicetus (155-166) St. Soter (166-175) St. Eleutherius (175-189) St. Victor I (189-199) "It must in justice be admitted, however, that the list of Roman bishops has by far the preminence in age, completeness, integrity of succession, consistency of doctrine and policy, above every similar catalogue, not excepting those of Jerusalem, Antioch, Alexandria, and Constantinople...." (Schaff, page 166)" —The preceding unsigned comment was added by [[User:{{{1}}}|{{{1}}}]] [[User talk:{{{1}}}|(talk)]]

What are Protestant claims?
Secondly, Cain too traced a lineage back to Adam; all of his progeny were wiped out in the flood (the seed of the wicked shall be rooted out). Why were his descendants destroyed and not Seth's? Easy answer, cause he offered a bloodless sacrifice (in this case the produce of the field, not water as you espouse) and not an acceptable blood sacrifice. RobSLive Free or Die 12:29, 19 May 2020 (EDT)

In the Scriptures, Jesus Christ our Lord and God declares St. Peter the Rock of His Church on Earth (Mat 16:18), gives him the Keys of the Kingdom of Heaven to bind and loose on earth (Mat 16:19), and promises the gates of hell will not prevail against this true Church of which St. Peter is the Head Bishop. Do Protestants believe this promise? An excerpt from the above link, a Protestant Bible commentary: ""In Jewish interpretation, the key of David refers to the teachers of the Law (exiled in Babylon); according to Matthew 23:13, the 'keys of the Kingdom of heaven' are in the hands of the teachers of the Law. A contrast is here drawn between them and Peter. He is thus not the gatekeeper of heaven, but the steward of the Kingdom of heaven upon earth. His function is described in more detail as 'binding and loosing' ....the saying must from the very outset have referred to an authority like that of the teachers of the Law. In this context, 'binding" and 'loosing' refer to the magisterium to declare a commandment binding or not binding....For Matthew, however, there is only one correct interpretation of the Law, that of Jesus. This is accessible to the community through the tradition of Peter...Probably we are dealing here mostly with teaching authority, and always with the understanding that God must ratify what Petrine tradition declares permitted or forbidden in the community." (Schweizer, page 343)" God gave teaching authority to the Pope and the Bishops. He gave them the Promise of the Holy Spirit to guide them in all Truth. In Acts 15, we see the Apostles held a Council when a question on circumcision arose NishantXavierFor Christ the King 12:41, 19 May 2020 (EDT)

You're somewhat loosing me; in Hebrews, the question is discussed that Jesus was born of the tribe of Judah, not of the priestly tribe of Levi or 'teachers of the law'. Is this what you are referring to? RobSLive Free or Die 12:51, 19 May 2020 (EDT)

Acts 22:16 is enough to end the debate: Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins

Here is the verse in the Protestant KJV, Catholics are not making this up; St. Paul really said it!

"And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord."

It is clear. The Name of the Lord (the Holy Trinity) causes our sins to be washed away. Our sins are washed in Baptism. NishantXavierFor Christ the King 11:37, 19 May 2020 (EDT)

Job 1:1:
  • In the land of Uz there lived a man whose name was Job. This man was blameless and upright
Show me where Job was baptized to be declared blameless. RobSLive Free or Die 12:15, 19 May 2020 (EDT)

It's not an answer, again. St. Paul says be baptized and wash away your sins. You simply don't believe him. But it doesn't matter since you are baptized. What you should investigate is Holy Communion. If they who call themselves Baptists lied to you saying Holy Baptism is only a symbol, very probably they also lied to you saying Holy Communion also is only a symbol. But it is not. Read John 6 and 1 Cor 10 and 11. What did the Lord say? "He who eats My Flesh and drinks My Blood abides in Me and I in him". Holy Communion is the True Body and the real Precious Blood of the Lord Jesus Christ.

As for what you ask about Job, it is irrelevant, but he was one of the OT Patriarchs who went to Limbo. They all went to Heaven only after Christ baptized them in His blood. You can read this. It was written by the Pharisee Nicodemus, the same Pharisee to whom Jesus said "you must be born again of water and the Spirit" in St. John 3:5: "5 For we have only three days allowed us from the dead, who arose to celebrate the passover of our Lord with our parents, and to bear our testimony for Christ the Lord, and we have been baptized in the holy river of Jordan. And now they are not seen by any one." NishantXavierFor Christ the King 12:22, 19 May 2020 (EDT)

  • Without shedding of blood there is no remission of sins.
Ok, next you'll tell me water is symbolic of the blood (read the title of this page). RobSLive Free or Die 12:35, 19 May 2020 (EDT)

St. John says Jesus came in Water and in Blood not in Water only but in Water and in Blood. When you are washed in water, it avails for you as if you had been washed in the Water and Blood that flowed from the Lord's Sacred Heart. That grace from His Heart, His Water and His Blood, washes away sin.

How do you understand Holy Communion? Here it is in the Protestant KJV so you can be assured Catholics didn't make it up: "48 I am that bread of life. 49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead. 50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die. 51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

52 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?

53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. 54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. 56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him. 57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.

58 This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever."

I'm leaving now. I'll check back later. In Our Lord Jesus, Nishant Xavier. God Bless. NishantXavierFor Christ the King 12:48, 19 May 2020 (EDT)

I'm not certain what we're even talking about. Have we resolved the issue of the use of the term "fountain" in Zecharaih yet? or what salvation is? I do not believe we can even discuss issues surrounding baptism until we understand what it means to be saved from the wrath of God. RobSLive Free or Die 13:04, 19 May 2020 (EDT)

Resource listing of Bible passages supporting Regenerative Baptism

See [[Essay: Water baptism cannot save, the Church cannot save, Born again by faith alone]]. This is a "Bible study" listing of all the Bible scriptures that are opposed by all who reject the doctrines of Regenerative Baptism, [[Infant baptism]], and the authority of the Catholic Church — a genuine Sola scriptura response from the whole context of the Bible: "the holy scriptures, which are able to make you wise unto salvation." Pax vobis --Dataclarifier (talk) 19:08, 20 May 2020 (EDT)

No it's not. We have extensively demonstrated:
  1. Dataclarifier's lack of knowledge and understanding of scripture;
  2. Dataclarifer is on record in more than one instance denying the authority of scripture.
I will add, Dataclarifier's creating an new subheading here and not adding anything further to the discussion, and his lack of response on other pages to these questions, is trolling. RobSLive Free or Die 18:12, 21 May 2020 (EDT)
He must have been told not to talk to you. VargasMilan (talk) Friday, 18:05, 22 May 2020 (EDT)
The Word of God is quick and powerful. RobSLive Free or Die 15:45, 23 May 2020 (EDT)
Some of you may have noticed I'm not defending DataClarifier. The truth is I'm angry about a definition he gave which shows he and whoever wrote his prooftexts don't understand the group they are trying to discredit enough to know what they believe, much less understand how to refute their beliefs.
The word is metanoia, which he mentions 9 times in trying make the claim at any cost that it means "repentance".
This word is notorious for being a mistranslation found in the Latin bible. 500 years later, unbelievably, they're still at it.
When Martin Luther got access to a New Testament Bible in the original Greek, he found the word translated as "repentance" was actually metanoia, which literally means "soul beyond". Repentance comes from looking inward, quite the opposite of going "beyond". The actual meaning of metanoia is either "reformation" (changing into something better) or "conversion".
It's not impossible to think they think they are justified in using the mistranslation so they don't get entangled in discussions about "reformation", which Protestants use as a byword, discussions in which the Bible would be testifying against them. It's not impossible, but it's sad to think we've come to a point where it seems so possible. VargasMilan (talk) Sunday, 14:13, 24 May 2020 (EDT)

Church Fathers - Baptism is for the Remission of Sins; to be given even to infants

(1) St. Irenaeus: “‘And [Naaman] dipped himself . . . seven times in the Jordan’ [2 Kgs. 5:14]. It was not for nothing that Naaman of old, when suffering from leprosy, was purified upon his being baptized, but [this served] as an indication to us. For as we are lepers in sin, we are made clean, by means of the sacred water and the invocation of the Lord, from our old transgressions, being spiritually regenerated as newborn babes" (Fragment 34 [A.D. 190]).

(2)St. Hippolytus: “Baptize first the children, and if they can speak for themselves let them do so. Otherwise, let their parents or other relatives speak for them” (The Apostolic Tradition 21:16 [A.D. 215]).

(3)Origen: “The Church received from the apostles the tradition of giving baptism even to infants. The apostles, to whom were committed the secrets of the divine sacraments, knew there are in everyone innate strains of [original] sin, which must be washed away through water and the Spirit” (Commentaries on Romans 5:9 [A.D. 248]).

(4) St. Cyprian: “If, in the case of the worst sinners and those who formerly sinned much against God, when afterwards they believe, the remission of their sins is granted and no one is held back from baptism and grace, how much more, then, should an infant not be held back, who, having but recently been born, has done no sin, except that, born of the flesh according to Adam, he has contracted the contagion of that old death from his first being born." (Letters 64:5 [A.D. 253]).

(5) St. Chrysostom: “You see how many are the benefits of baptism, and some think its heavenly grace consists only in the remission of sins, but we have enumerated ten honors [it bestows]! For this reason we baptize even infants, though they are not defiled by [personal] sins, so that there may be given to them holiness, righteousness, adoption, inheritance, brotherhood with Christ, and that they may be his [Christ’s] members” (Baptismal Catecheses in Augustine, Against Julian 1:6:21 [A.D. 388])." NishantXavierFor Christ the King 18:27, 24 May 2020 (EDT) See and NishantXavierFor Christ the King 18:29, 24 May 2020 (EDT)

From the Scriptures also, we can clearly see that Baptism is for the remission of sins. This was true even of John's Baptism. So much more is it the case of Christ's Baptism. The verses were given in the essay NishantXavierFor Christ the King 18:29, 24 May 2020 (EDT)

(1) St. John the Baptist: "John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins." (Mark 1:4)

(2) St. Peter the Apostle: "Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." (Acts 2:38) NishantXavierFor Christ the King 18:31, 24 May 2020 (EDT)

TLDR; not really interested in non-scriptural doctrines of men, per Jesus@Mat 15:7-9. RobSLive Free or Die 18:38, 24 May 2020 (EDT)

What about those of St. John the Baptist and St. Peter the Apostle? St. Peter the Apostle says be baptized for the remission of sins. NishantXavierFor Christ the King 18:39, 24 May 2020 (EDT)

Why? What is salvation? RobSLive Free or Die 19:21, 24 May 2020 (EDT)
IOWs, until you can tell what salvation is, and why the necessity for it, you are putting the cart before the horse. RobSLive Free or Die 03:18, 25 May 2020 (EDT)
Summarizing succinctly: Salvation is a personal choice we each make individually. Serving God now and spending eternity with him is a choice that we make. It is no different than choosing to marry or not marry. Or to murder or not murder. Or to be a thief or not a thief. Or what color socks we put on in the morning. Or whether we like cream in our coffee or no cream. It is not a choice made by our parents. God offers a way back to himself. We must listen to his word, and choose to accept it or reject it. Those who choose the path of salvation are saved from judgment; those who reject salvation get their wish and face judgement. God will only rubber stamp your choice. RobSLive Free or Die 04:39, 25 May 2020 (EDT)
Listening to God is choice. Hearing the doctrines of men is a choice, the difference being God is inerrant, the doctrines of men and traditions of the church have a spotty record. RobSLive Free or Die 04:51, 25 May 2020 (EDT)

There is no disagreement about faith being necessary. Catholics believe Jesus is our Lord and Savior. We do not baptize an adult convert unless he believes Jesus is his Lord and Savior. The question is about what comes after faith and baptism. Christians are called to holiness. That means works of love and mercy. That means abstaining from sin and striving to be pure of heart, for as the Lord said, such are blessed and will see God. Men must strive to live like Angels on Earth, loving God, doing His Will, and living in communion with Him, and being transformed into His likeness.

Salvation begins with baptism and belief in Christ Crucified. That is justification. Salvation continues through growth in holiness. That is sanctification. Salvation is complete by attaining a deep state of annointed union with Christ that we desire to do nothing other than God's Will. The Saints and Angels in heaven do not sin any more. How is that possible? Through God's Grace. God's Grace not only remits or take away our sin, it empowers us so that we can conquer sin's hold on our lives. As we grow in grace, we will sin less and less. When made perfect, we sin no more. NishantXavierFor Christ the King 14:52, 25 May 2020 (EDT)

Ok, I think we are on constructive ground. Let's discuss grace. You seem to saying that this grace occurs after a person is adopted into God's family (let's use this term "adopted into God's family" to apply to a Christian believer however they got there either under Roman Catholic or Protestant doctrine). Am I reading your interpretation correct? I have more to say. RobSLive Free or Die 15:00, 25 May 2020 (EDT)
Let me lay out the gospel of grace and salvation:
  1. The judgment of God is upon sin.
  2. This judgement of God is expressed and exercised through the Law.
  3. By God's grace he is willing to forbear His righteous judgement upon sin (See Jeremiah 3:1 for example, yet I say return again unto me)
  4. God's grace provides a way for salvation from his righteous judgement upon sin.
Can we agree on these statements in this order? RobSLive Free or Die 15:25, 25 May 2020 (EDT)

Great. Yes, we believe in something called sanctifying grace. You may have heard that, when a person is adopted into God's family, the Holy Spirit comes to dwell in him, and we call that indwelling grace as habitual or sanctifying grace. We say a person is in the State of Grace. If he dies in the State of Grace, he will go to heaven. Grace is lost only by mortal sins. Mortal sin can be forgiven in the confessional. Then, the person is restored.

I can agree with your premises #1-4. Yes, the Judgment of God is upon sin. We however distinguish venial sin from mortal sin, the "sin unto death" in 1 Jn 5. "All unrighteousness is sin and there is sin that is not mortal". On #2, also I can agree. The law tells us for e.g. not to commit adultery or murder. Our Lord and His Apostles, in the New Testament, tells us not to commit adultery in our heart, or murder by hating a brother. Our Lord calls us to great holiness. But if we sin, He always forgets. St. John explains in 1 Jn 2, he is writing so that they don't sin. But if they sin, we have an Advocate with the Father, Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. In 1 Jn 1, he says we should not say we have no sin, but if we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us of all unrighteousness.

With #3, if you mean our past sins before we come to Christ, I agree. He forgives those sins because they were committed in ignorance out of His Mercy. St. Paul explains this when he speaks of how he sinned against Christ in ignorance, but God forgave this in His Grace and Mercy. With #4, God's Grace - again as we read in 1 Jn - we can keep His commandments. We are not forgiven from a life of sin in order to continue in a life of sin. If we look at any sinner in the Bible, e.g. the woman at the well, Zaccheus, the woman in adultery etc Jesus always forgave them, told them to go in peace, but sin no more. When Zaccheus promised to make restitution, the Lord said salvation had come to his house. So we believe God is very merciful, and forgives always when we repent and confess, but also calls us to love holy lives.

God Bless.NishantXavierFor Christ the King 16:05, 25 May 2020 (EDT)

Me personally, I had eight years of Catholic catechism and attending mass 6 days weekly (7 days when serving as an altar boy). I learned the scriptures from hearing daily readings (faith comes by hearing), not from catechism or religion class.
There is a sin unto death. Jesus tells us what it is:
  • All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. 32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him -Matt 12:31-32.
So let's return to point 3 again -
  • For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God -Eph 2:8.
Grace is a standing offer from God, a free gift, available to anyone who will take it. This grace has been available since before Jesus was born. Would you agree with that? RobSLive Free or Die 17:05, 25 May 2020 (EDT)
If you need a little prompting or help, see here Hebrews 4:2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them, "them" being Israel in the Wilderness as referenced in chapter 3. This is a simple question of faith in the truth or falsity of the Bible.
Was the gospel of grace and salvation, not of works, preached to Israel in the wilderness? And when they rejected grace, they were given the Law of Moses. RobSLive Free or Die 01:29, 26 May 2020 (EDT)
See also Hebrews 12: Ye have not come unto Sinai (law) but unto Zion (grace) and to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant and the sprinkling of blood (note: a fountain of blood, not water, as prophesied in Zechariah 13). RobSLive Free or Die 07:00, 26 May 2020 (EDT)
Where was the gospel preached to Israel in the Wilderness? Wherefore if I have found grace in thy sight, show me now thy way -Ex 33:13. RobSLive Free or Die 07:04, 26 May 2020 (EDT)

Christ made available the fullness of Grace by His Cross and His Death. Some grace was given to the OT Patriarchs - some of whom were shown visions of Christ crucified in prophesy, like Moses and Isaiah for e.g. - in anticipation of Christ to come. No one went to heaven until Christ came. NishantXavierFor Christ the King 13:47, 27 May 2020 (EDT)

It's all the same grace. It's unending. The question is how do we access this grace? RobSLive Free or Die 17:17, 27 May 2020 (EDT)
Oh, and not to get sidetracked, but salvation is now, in this life. It is not simply access to an afterlife. RobSLive Free or Die 17:19, 27 May 2020 (EDT)

God is too stupid to make himself understood

(For the record: I did not post this heading. Someone else did. The words below are mine, beginning with "God uses matter and material means...
--Dataclarifier (talk) 07:50, 2 June 2020 (EDT)
God uses matter and material means as vehicles of His Grace and Salvation. The Word became flesh. Jesus is our Salvation. He is the Sacrament of Salvation. When He physically declared "Your sins are forgiven" (as in the examples already cited, above), it is He in the flesh who physically forgave by physical speech, and the sin was gone. Jesus is in His Body the Church. He is in the Sacraments, imparting and causing salvation, cleansing from sin, and bestowing grace to do His will by the Holy Spirit.
Jesus saves by material means. The material means of supernatural grace are water and the Spirit in Baptism, the preaching of the Word through physical speech by human beings using sound, the bodily assembly of the people uniting together in worship as the temple of God the Holy Spirit, the physical bodily Priesthood of the bodily present Church in the physical material bodily world visible from one end of the sky to the other pronouncing the word of Absolution in Confession and Reconciliation with the Sign of the Cross, the bread and the wine of the Eucharist of the body and blood of the Lord Himself truly present among us, the oil of baptism of the Holy Spirit in the anointing of Confirmation, the laying on of physical hands by the Bishop and his authorized representatives in the Priesthood for Ordination, the mutual consent of the two baptized single Christians, one man, one woman, to be united in Holy Matrimony to become one flesh to procreate with the power of God new human beings with bodies, souls, and spirits to be dedicated to Christ, and the oil of the Anointing of the Sick for consolation and healing, and the physical Bible read by Christians imparting to those who can read and hear the word of the Lord and knowledge of Him by paper and ink and letters and printed words on the page and the physical sight and sound of the electronic media.
In each of these it is Jesus Himself present in some physical form forgiving sins. The Father is in Him and He is in the Father Who sends the Holy Spirit, One God. He is the Sacrament of Salvation. The Church is the Sacrament of Salvation as His Body and His Temple. The Sacraments of the Church are His Own Personal Presence and together manifest physically Himself as the One Lord Who alone forgives sins. When those to whom He said, "Your sins are forgiven" were actually forgiven, it was He as the Sacrament of Salvation forgave them. The Thief on the cross was forgiven as surely as if He was baptized by water and the word, because it is Jesus Himself in Baptism Who forgives sin and saves souls as the true Sacrament of Salvation.
Do not be taken in by the specious reasoning that separates the outer form from the inner reality of Him Who is Present in the Sacrament of Baptism into His Body and Blood uniting us to Him and by Him in the Church that is His Body for salvation to eternal life, separating it from Him as if it is a common and unholy (ordinary) thing devoid of His Personal Presence as Savior and Lord without His Blood (Hebrews 10:28-31). If it is only a symbol it cannot save. If it is solely by the will of man choosing by free will to say, "I believe", it cannot save. If it is the manifest presence of Jesus by the physical action ordained by Him for salvation (John 3:5), it is He Who by these material physical means saves us Himself, and only He. Remember how He healed with His spit and with mud, and by physically touching people. Even His clothing had power to heal (the woman with the hemorrhage who touched His clothes) because it was His covering. The Sacraments are the clothing of His Person. Where they are valid, there He is. It is Jesus Who saves through Baptism by water and the Spirit. It is He who forgives sin and cleanses the soul, the very Word made physical flesh. We cannot do it by our own power, it is He Who does it through us and by us and for us in the Sacraments, by His Spirit in the Father alone and with us always through the Church (Ephesians 3:10; 2 Peter 1:3-4) unto the end of the world.
This is Catholic Sacramental doctrine. Any doctrine that rejects it is not Catholic doctrine, and anyone who rejects Catholic doctrine does not represent Catholic doctrine, and should not be regarded as a reliable source of what Catholicism teaches. They may claim to be Catholic, but by denial of Catholic doctrine (if they really are Catholics) they are bad Catholics, not good Catholics. No one should say of them them that they are not Catholic, just that they are disobedient Catholics who have rejected the teaching of the Catholic Magisterium and do not in any way represent the Catholic Church. --Dataclarifier (talk) 10:33, 31 May 2020 (EDT)
Then explain the meaning of Jeremiah 3:1. There is no baptism and Jesus wasn't born yet to "bestow grace". RobSLive Free or Die 12:10, 31 May 2020 (EDT)
Dataclarifier says, "God uses matter and material means";
Jesus says, Ye tithe mint and rue and ignore the weightier points of the law... (mercy and faith)
Jesus says That which is flesh is flesh, that which is spirit is spirt.
Flesh is 90%+ H2O.
the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God because they are spiritually discerned. RobSLive Free or Die 12:26, 31 May 2020 (EDT)
  • As he thinketh in his heart, so is he
Salvation is a personal matter between you and God. I'm gonna modify Pascal's wager: I will fill my heart with God's word. You fill your heart with catechism, sacramental church doctrine, and ancient debates among scholars. If I'm wrong, I have nothing to lose. If you don't have the Word of God in your heart, you have everything to lose. RobSLive Free or Die 12:39, 31 May 2020 (EDT)

Grace is not an object to be bestowed. It is the nature of God. God walls himself off from sin; however God has provided a path for us to himself. You choose to accept this grace or path back to Himself. RobSLive Free or Die 12:51, 31 May 2020 (EDT)
Lastly, I still can't get over you calling God too stupid to make himself understood:
You should fix this heresy and blasphemy before you pretend to speak for God to anyone. RobSLive Free or Die 13:16, 31 May 2020 (EDT)
  • the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse
Do you admonish people with the Word of God, James 1:5? If any of you lacks wisdom, ask God and he will give it you? No. You preach doctrines of men, church catechism, rendering the word of God to no effect.
"the bible is not altogether clear in and of itself." Woe unto you scribes and Pharisees, Hypocrites! RobSLive Free or Die 19:12, 31 May 2020 (EDT)

If someone wants to respond to Rob, please move this down accordingly.
Zaccheus is a faith story. Many recognized him as only a tax-collector and might have pushed him out of the the way. But he was a scrupulous thinker and wanted to watch Jesus' every interaction without being pushed about, so he climbed the tree.
Well, you know the rest, but the interesting thing that you might not have noticed was that Zaccheus, as well as many in the crowd, lived in Jericho, a city which God had commanded the Israelites never to rebuild! To me this suggests that Jericho may have been rebuilt by the Romans, but I'm willing to bet that many of the Israelites suffered from a bad conscience of collaborating with the enemy if they lived there.
Zaccheus may not have been talking about a new change for the future, but something he was already doing and showing his scrupulosity also applied to religious matters, which suggests: as part of scrupulously pursuing the practice of doing what God requires, he wanted to be sure he hadn't missed anything, so he followed Jesus to know about his teachings.
I don't think we have to think too hard to guess that Jericho could have practiced a nervous righteousness like Zaccheus. But in a way Jesus "spared the town" because a man with even the least-admired profession had a faith to not only seek righteousness to please God, but was also willing to risk bearing a greater burden should he learn that righteousness required it.
But indeed, I'm left with the feeling that salvation had come to Zaccheus' house. VargasMilan (talk) Tuesday, 09:34, 26 May 2020 (EDT)
<Aside, for the purposes of clarity, Zechariah and Zaccheus are two different people.> It may be helpful to clarify why Publicans or tax-collectors were so unpopular. They were Jews who collected taxes to support the Roman army occupation. Hence a term like "collaborator" or "Quisling" might be more explicit. They fingered the rich, powerful, and elite who employed people, provided services, and made the economy function, then blackmailed them for taxes to support the occupation. They were allowed to rake off a portion for themselves. They were regarded as traitors. In contrast you had the Zealots, or underground resistance movement. RobSLive Free or Die 09:52, 26 May 2020 (EDT)
Addressing the theory about Jericho being rebuilt by the Romans: It's very Interesting. It would likely illustrate more of Israel's rebellion against God. When an occupying army takes over a functioning economy, they see people employed in services and manufacturing, but it's difficult to identify who the money people are behind it all and who profit. The wealth of the rich, powerful, and elite allows them to disguise themselves through intermediaries and fronts. Publicans, members of the native society, then betray their countrymen by approaching these elites as an intermediary between the financiers of the functioning society and the occupation force, and present a bill from the occupation force (for which they get a percentage) with the threat that the elites themselves may be turned over for crucifixion for failing to cooperate. Nobody wants this of course, cause if the occupiers themselves destroy a functioning and profitable economy (watch closely what's happening in Hong Kong right now) it is self defeating. Hence you need people from the native society willing to betray their own people, which is never difficult to dredge up. Allowing the economy to continue functioning while taxing the rich has a trickle down effect on jobs and consumers, which becomes oppressive.
Jesus's partying with Publicans and sinners sent a mix message to Pilot and occupying authorities - Why would the Pharisees be so upset about a guy who didn't regard the traitors, who brought oppression upon the people, as traitors? RobSLive Free or Die 10:30, 26 May 2020 (EDT)

That of course leads us to Romans:

Why we need a mediator between God and man

Gospel passages

These are all in Jesus' own words.

And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed, and brake it; and he gave to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body. And he took a cup, and gave thanks, and gave to them, saying, Drink ye all of it; for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many unto remission of sins.—Matthew 26:26-28

And they come, bringing unto him a man sick of the palsy, borne of four. And when they could not come nigh unto him for the crowd, they uncovered the roof where he was: and when they had broken it up, they let down the bed whereon the sick of the palsy lay. And Jesus seeing their faith saith unto the sick of the palsy, Son, thy sins are forgiven. But there were certain of the scribes sitting there, and reasoning in their hearts, why doth this man thus speak? he blasphemeth: who can forgive sins but one, [even] God? And straightway Jesus, perceiving in his spirit that they so reasoned within themselves, saith unto them, Why reason ye these things in your hearts? Which is easier, to say to the sick of the palsy, Thy sins are forgiven; or to say, Arise, and take up thy bed, and walk? But that ye may know that the Son of man hath authority on earth to forgive sins (he saith to the sick of the palsy), I say unto thee, Arise, take up thy bed, and go unto thy house.—Mark 2:3-11

And he entered and was passing through Jericho. And behold, a man called by name Zacchaeus; and he was a chief publican, and he was rich. And he sought to see Jesus who he was; and could not for the crowd, because he was little of stature. And he ran on before, and climbed up into a sycomore tree to see him: for he was to pass that way. And when Jesus came to the place, he looked up, and said unto him, Zacchaeus, make haste, and come down; for to-day I must abide at thy house. And he made haste, and came down, and received him joyfully. And when they saw it, they all murmured, saying, He is gone in to lodge with a man that is a sinner. And Zacchaeus stood, and said unto the Lord, Behold, Lord, the half of my goods I give to the poor; and if I have wrongfully exacted aught of any man, I restore fourfold. And Jesus said unto him, To-day is salvation come to this house, forasmuch as he also is a son of Abraham. For the Son of man came to seek and to save that which was lost. And as they heard these things, he added and spake a parable, because he was nigh to Jerusalem, and [because] they supposed that the kingdom of God was immediately to appear.—Luke 19:1-10

And he said unto them, These are my words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must needs be fulfilled, which are written in the law of Moses, and the prophets, and the psalms, concerning me. Then opened he their mind, that they might understand the scriptures; and he said unto them, Thus it is written, that the Christ should suffer, and rise again from the dead the third day; and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name unto all the nations, beginning from Jerusalem.—Luke 24:44-47

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on him should not perish, but have eternal life.

For God sent not the Son into the world to judge the world; but that the world should be saved through him.—John 3:16-17

I am the door; by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and go out, and shall find pasture.

The thief cometh not, but that he may steal, and kill, and destroy: I came that they may have life, and may have [it] abundantly.

I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd layeth down his life for the sheep.

He that is a hireling, and not a shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, beholdeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth, and the wolf snatcheth them, and scattereth [them]:

[he fleeth] because he is a hireling, and careth not for the sheep.

I am the good shepherd; and I know mine own, and mine own know me,

even as the Father knoweth me, and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the sheep.

And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice: and they shall become one flock, one shepherd.

Therefore doth the Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I may take it again.

No one taketh it away from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment received I from my Father.—John 10:9-18

VargasMilan (talk) Friday, 16:55, 22 May 2020 (EDT)

Great points. Where was the sick of the palsy baptized to have his sins forgiven? As Dataclarifier would say, Sola fide. RobSLive Free or Die 15:48, 23 May 2020 (EDT)
Thank you, I wouldn't have noticed that.
Andy thinks Hebrews was partially written by Jesus, so I will move to that next.



Redemption brought by Christ, not by angels

But we behold him who hath been made a little lower than the angels, [even] Jesus, because of the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that by the grace of God he should taste of death for every [man].

For it became him, for whom are all things, and through whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the author of their salvation perfect through sufferings. For both he that sanctifieth and they that are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren, saying,

I will declare thy name unto my brethren, In the midst of the congregation will I sing thy praise.

And again,

I will put my trust in him.

And again,

Behold, I and the children whom God hath given me.

Since then the children are sharers in flesh and blood, he also himself in like manner partook of the same; that through death he might bring to nought him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; and might deliver all them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage. For verily not to angels doth he give help, but he giveth help to the seed of Abraham. Wherefore it behooved him in all things to be made like unto his brethren, that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people. For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succor them that are tempted. (Hebrews 2:9-18)


Jesus the compassionate high priest

For every high priest, being taken from among men, is appointed for men in things pertaining to God, that he may offer both gifts and sacrifices for sins: who can bear gently with the ignorant and erring, for that he himself also is compassed with infirmity; and by reason thereof is bound, as for the people, so also for himself, to offer for sins. And no man taketh the honor unto himself, but when he is called of God, even as was Aaron. So Christ also glorified not himself to be made a high priest, but he that spake unto him,

Thou art my Son,
This day have I begotten thee:

as he saith also in another [place,]

Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek.

Who in the days of his flesh, having offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and having been heard for his godly fear, though he was a Son, yet learned obedience by the things which he suffered; and having been made perfect, he became unto all them that obey him the author of eternal salvation; named of God a high priest after the order of Melchizedek.


Christian life and theology

Of whom we have many things to say, and hard of interpretation, seeing ye are become dull of hearing. For when by reason of the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need again that some one teach you the rudiments of the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of solid food. For every one that partaketh of milk is without experience of the word of righteousness; for he is a babe. But solid food is for fullgrown men, [even] those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern good and evil. (Hebrews 5)

Christ's priesthood higher than levitical priesthood


For this Melchizedek, king of Salem, priest of God Most High, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings and blessed him, to whom also Abraham divided a tenth part of all (being first, by interpretation, King of righteousness, and then also King of Salem, which is King of peace; without father, without mother, without genealogy, having neither beginning of days nor end of life, but made like unto the Son of God), abideth a priest continually.

Melchizedek accepted tithes from Abraham

Now consider how great this man was, unto whom Abraham, the patriarch, gave a tenth out of the chief spoils. And they indeed of the sons of Levi that receive the priest's office have commandment to take tithes of the people according to the law, that is, of their brethren, though these have come out of the loins of Abraham: but he whose genealogy is not counted from them hath taken tithes of Abraham, and hath blessed him that hath the promises. But without any dispute the less is blessed of the better. And here men that die receive tithes; but there one, of whom it is witnessed that he liveth. And, so to say, through Abraham even Levi, who receiveth tithes, hath paid tithes; for he was yet in the loins of his father, when Melchizedek met him.

From levitical priesthood to the priesthood of Melchizedek

Now if there was perfection through the Levitical priesthood (for under it hath the people received the law), what further need [was there] that another priest should arise after the order of Melchizedek, and not be reckoned "after the order of" Aaron? For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

For he of whom these things are said belongeth to another tribe, from which no man hath given attendance at the altar. For it is evident that our Lord hath sprung out of Judah; as to which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priests.

The abrogation of the old Law

And [what we say] is yet more abundantly evident, if after the likeness of Melchizedek there ariseth another priest, who hath been made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life: for it is witnessed [of him,] Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek. For there is a disannulling of a foregoing commandment because of its weakness and unprofitableness (for the law made nothing perfect), and a bringing in thereupon of a better hope, through which we draw nigh unto God.

Christ's priesthood is unchanging

And inasmuch as [it is] not without the taking of an oath (for they indeed have been made priests without an oath; but he with an oath by him that saith of him,

The Lord sware and will not repent himself, Thou art a priest for ever);

by so much also hath Jesus become the surety of a better covenant. And they indeed have been made priests many in number, because that by death they are hindered from continuing: but he, because he abideth for ever, hath his priesthood unchangeable. Wherefore also he is able to save to the uttermost them that draw near unto God through him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

The perfection of the heavenly high priest

For such a high priest became us, holy, guileless, undefiled, separated from sinners, and made higher than the heavens; who needeth not daily, like those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for his own sins, and then for the [sins] of the people: for this he did once for all, when he offered up himself. For the law appointeth men high priests, having infirmity; but the word of the oath, which was after the law, [appointeth] a Son, perfected for evermore.

The superiority of the worship, the sanctuary and the mediation provided by Christ the priest

The new priesthood and the new sanctuary

Now in the things which we are saying the chief point [is this]: We have such a high priest, who sat down on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens, a minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, not man. For every high priest is appointed to offer both gifts and sacrifices: wherefore it is necessary that this [high priest] also have somewhat to offer. Now if he were on earth, he would not be a priest at all, seeing there are those who offer the gifts according to the law; who serve [that which is] a copy and shadow of the heavenly things, even as Moses is warned [of God] when he is about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern that was showed thee in the mount.

Christ is the mediator of a greater covenant

But now hath he obtained a ministry the more excellent, by so much as he is also the mediator of a better covenant, which hath been enacted upon better promises. For if that first [covenant] had been faultless, then would no place have been sought for a second. For finding fault with them, he saith,

Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah; not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them forth out of the land of Egypt; for they continued not in my covenant, And I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel
After those days, saith the Lord;
I will put my laws into their mind,
And on their heart also will I write them:
And I will be to them a God,
And they shall be to me a people:
And they shall not teach every man his fellow-citizen,
And every man his brother, saying,
Know the Lord: For all shall know me,
From the least to the greatest of them.
For I will be merciful to their iniquities,
And their sins will I remember no more.

In that he saith a new [covenant], he hath made the first old. But that which is becoming old and waxeth aged is nigh unto vanishing away.

Christ enters the heavenly sanctuary

Now even a first [covenant] had ordinances of divine service, and its sanctuary, [a sanctuary] of this world. For there was a tabernacle prepared, the first, wherein [were] the candlestick, and the table, and the showbread; which is called the Holy place. And after the second veil, the tabernacle which is called the Holy of holies; having a golden altar of incense, and the ark of the covenant overlaid round about with gold, wherein [was] a golden pot holding the manna, and Aaron's rod that budded, and the tables of the covenant; and above it cherubim of glory overshadowing the mercy-seat; of which things we cannot now speak severally.

Now these things having been thus prepared, the priests go in continually into the first tabernacle, accomplishing the services; but into the second the high priest alone, once in the year, not without blood, which he offereth for himself, and for the errors of the people: the Holy Spirit this signifying, that the way into the holy place hath not yet been made manifest, while the first tabernacle is yet standing; which [is] a figure for the time present; according to which are offered both gifts and sacrifices that cannot, as touching the conscience, make the worshipper perfect, [being] only (with meats and drinks and divers washings) carnal ordinances, imposed until a time of reformation.

But Christ having come a high priest of the good things to come, through the greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this creation, nor yet through the blood of goats and calves, but through his own blood, entered in once for all into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption. For if the blood of goats and bulls, and the ashes of a heifer sprinkling them that have been defiled, sanctify unto the cleanness of the flesh: how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without blemish unto God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

Christ seals the new covenant with his blood

And for this cause he is the mediator of a new covenant, that a death having taken place for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first covenant, they that have been called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance. For where a testament is, there must of necessity be the death of him that made it. For a testament is of force where there hath been death: for it doth never avail while he that made it liveth. Wherefore even the first [covenant] hath not been dedicated without blood. For when every commandment had been spoken by Moses unto all the people according to the law, he took the blood of the calves and the goats, with water and scarlet wool and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book itself and all the people, saying,

This is the blood of the covenant which God commanded to you-ward.

Moreover the tabernacle and all the vessels of the ministry he sprinkled in like manner with the blood. And according to the law, I may almost say, all things are cleansed with blood, and apart from shedding of blood there is no remission. It was necessary therefore that the copies of the things in the heavens should be cleansed with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. For Christ entered not into a holy place made with hands, like in pattern to the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear before the face of God for us: nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place year by year with blood not his own; else must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once at the end of the ages hath he been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. And inasmuch as it is appointed unto men once to die, and after this [cometh] judgment; so Christ also, having been once offered to bear the sins of many, shall appear a second time, apart from sin, to them that wait for him, unto salvation.

Summary: Christ's sacrifice superior to the sacrifices of the Mosaic Law

The old sacrifices ineffective

For the law having a shadow of the good [things] to come, not the very image of the things, can never with the same sacrifices year by year, which they offer continually, make perfect them that draw nigh. Else would they not have ceased to be offered? because the worshippers, having been once cleansed, would have had no more consciousness of sins. But in those [sacrifices] there is a remembrance made of sins year by year. For it is impossible that the blood of bulls and goats should take away sins. Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith,

Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not,
But a body didst thou prepare for me;
In whole burnt offerings and [sacrifices] for sin thou hadst no pleasure:
Then said I, Lo, I am come
(In the roll of the book it is written of me)
To do thy will, O God.

Saying above, sacrifices and offerings and whole burnt offerings and [sacrifices] for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein (the which are offered according to the law), then hath he said,

Lo, I am come to do thy will.

He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. By which will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

The efficacy of Christ's sacrifice

And every priest indeed standeth day by day ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, the which can never take away sins: but he, when he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; henceforth expecting

till his enemies be made the footstool of his feet.

For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. And the Holy Spirit also beareth witness to us; for after he hath said,

This is the covenant that I will make with them
After those days,

saith the Lord:

I will put my laws on their heart,
And upon their mind also will I write them;

[then saith he,]

And their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.


The Christian opportunity

Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holy place by the blood of Jesus, by the way which he dedicated for us, a new and living way, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh; and [having] a great priest over the house of God; let us draw near with a true heart in fulness of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience: and having our body washed with pure water. (Hebrews 7:1 - 10:22)

VargasMilan (talk) Saturday, 18:47, 23 May 2020 (EDT) 09:13, 31 May 2020 (EDT)

Wow. There is nothing anyone can add to that. Never get tired of reading it or hearing it. Onward, to perfection. Not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, 2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. 3 And this will we do, if God permit. Those who are stuck on the doctrine of baptism are not moving onward to perfection. RobSLive Free or Die 20:30, 23 May 2020 (EDT)
Protestantism is relativism and relativistic thinking. That's why there are 10,000 denominations in place of the One Church. The Bible teaches those truly sanctified by the Blood of Christ can still fall away. Thus, there is no once saved, always saved. See Hebrews 10:19. Other examples later.NishantXavierFor Christ the King 17:42, 23 May 2020 (EDT) [moved from reference earlier on the page]

Hebrews 10:19-20: Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holy place by the blood of Jesus, by the way which he dedicated for us, a new and living way, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;

The veil

2 Corinthians 3:14,

to this day, when they read the old covenant, that same veil remains unlifted, because only through Christ is it taken away.

Returning to Zechariah chapter 13 - that same veil remains over much Roman Catholic doctrine and some Orthodox Jews.

15 Yes, to this day whenever Moses is read a veil lies over their hearts. 16 But when one turns to the Lord, the veil is removed. 17 Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.

I say this in the spirit of 2 Timothy 2:24,

the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient

RobSLive Free or Die 14:59, 24 May 2020 (EDT)

Actions speak louder than words, so let's go to the book of Acts.



Peter's address to the people

"Repent ye therefore, and turn again, that your sins may be blotted out, that so there may come seasons of refreshing from the presence of the Lord; and that he may send the Christ who hath been appointed for you, [even] Jesus: whom the heaven must receive until the times of restoration of all things, whereof God spake by the mouth of His holy prophets that have been from of old. Moses indeed said,

A prophet shall the Lord God raise up unto you from among your brethren, like unto me. To him shall ye hearken in all things whatsoever he shall speak unto you. And it shall be, that every soul that shall not hearken to that prophet, shall be utterly destroyed from among the people.

"Yea and all the prophets from Samuel and them that followed after, as many as have spoken, they also told of these days.

"Ye are the sons of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with your fathers, saying unto Abraham,

And in thy seed shall all the families of the earth be blessed.

"Unto you first God, having raised up his Servant, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from your iniquities." (Acts 3:19-26)

Peter and John before the Sanhedrin

Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that in the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, [even] in him doth this man stand here before you whole. He is the stone which was set at nought of you the builders, which was made the head of the corner. And in none other is there salvation: for neither is there any other name under heaven, that is given among men, wherein we must be saved. (Acts 4:10-12)

The Great Commission is probably the single most important calling to the Church today, beside to be holy and faithful in all things. The Great Commission itself refutes the recent idea that Baptism is meaningless, for otherwise Christ would not have laid so much emphasis on Baptism along with Evangelism. Christ only refers to the Name of the Holy Trinity during His command for Baptism. Have you never seen the sick healed? If you believe the sick can be healed in accordance with Jam 5:15 "And the prayer of faith shall save the sick man: and the Lord shall raise him up: and if he be in sins, they shall be forgiven him.", by faith and in the Name of Jesus, as the Apostles showed e.g. St. Peter (Acts 4:10), why will you doubt that the Name of the Holy Trinity, the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, will heal the spiritual sickness of sins? I think the case is already solidly established. If someone still disagrees, I can only say, pray, and continue to study the Word. God may surprise you one day. NishantXavierFor Christ the King 11:33, 22 May 2020 (EDT)

A summons to appear before the Sanhedrin

"The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew, hanging him on a tree. Him did God exalt with his right hand [to be] a Prince and a Saviour, to give repentance to Israel, and remission of sins..." (Acts 5:30-31)


Peter's address in the house of Cornelius

"That saying ye yourselves know, which was published throughout all Judaea, beginning from Galilee, after the baptism which John preached; [even] Jesus of Nazareth, how God anointed him with the Holy Spirit and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him. And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the country of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom also they slew, hanging him on a tree. Him God raised up the third day, and gave him to be made manifest, not to all the people, but unto witnesses that were chosen before of God, [even] to us, who ate and drank with him after he rose from the dead. And he charged us to preach unto the people, and to testify that this is he who is ordained of God [to be] the Judge of the living and the dead. To him bear all the prophets witness, that through his name every one that believeth on him shall receive remission of sins. (Acts 10:37-43)

And we bring you good tidings of the promise made unto the fathers, that God hath fulfilled the same unto our children, in that he raised up Jesus; as also it is written in the second psalm,

Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.

And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, he hath spoken on this wise, I will give you the holy and sure [blessings] of David. Because he saith also in another [psalm],

Thou wilt not give Thy Holy One to see corruption.

For David, after he had in his own generation served the counsel of God, fell asleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption: but he whom God raised up saw no corruption. Be it known unto you therefore, brethren, that through this man is proclaimed unto you remission of sins: and by him every one that believeth is justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses. (Acts 13:32-39)

VargasMilan (talk) Sunday, 09:33, 24 May 2020 (EDT)

Practices of the Apostles (Acts of the Apostles) is a good starting point to illustrate the doctrines of men vs. the Word of God. I will paraphrase to show the discrepancy. The book opens with a confab between Apostles who are citing scripture to fill the position of Judas as one of the twelve because, obviously in their view, God had made a mistake in choosing Judas. So they drew lots to come up with somebody. However, per the word of God, Paul later is chosen by God to become the twelfth Apostle.
So what does this mean? Pope Francis is not the successor of Peter anymore than Mathias or Bartholomew were the successor of Judas. God chooses his church leaders, not men. RobSLive Free or Die 11:33, 24 May 2020 (EDT)




God's anger against pagan and Jew

All are guilty

[B]ecause by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified in his sight; for through the law [cometh] the knowledge of sin.

Faith and the justice of God

The revelation of God's justice

But now apart from the law a righteousness of God hath been manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ unto all them that believe; for there is no distinction; for all have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God; being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: whom God set forth [to be] a propitiation, through faith, in his blood, to show his righteousness because of the passing over of the sins done aforetime, in the forbearance of God; for the showing, [I say], of his righteousness at this present season: that he might himself be just, and the justifier of him that hath faith in Jesus. (Romans 3:20-26)



Faith guarantees salvation

Being therefore justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ; through whom also we have had our access by faith into this grace wherein we stand; and we rejoice in hope of the glory of God. And not only so, but we also rejoice in our tribulations: knowing that tribulation worketh stedfastness; and stedfastness, approvedness; and approvedness, hope: and hope putteth not to shame; because the love of God hath been shed abroad in our hearts through the Holy Spirit which was given unto us. For while we were yet weak, in due season Christ died for the ungodly. For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: for peradventure for the good man some one would even dare to die. But God commendeth his own love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, being now justified by his blood, shall we be saved from the wrath [of God] through him. For if, while we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, shall we be saved by his life; and not only so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.

Deliverance from sin and death and law

Adam and Jesus Christ

Therefore, as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin; and so death passed unto all men, for that all sinned:—for until the law sin was in the world; but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the likeness of Adam's transgression, who is a figure of him that was to come.

But not as the trespass, so also [is] the free gift. For if by the trespass of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God, and the gift by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, abound unto the many. And not as through one that sinned, [so] is the gift: for the judgment [came] of one unto condemnation, but the free gift [came] of many trespasses unto justification. For if, by the trespass of the one, death reigned through the one; much more shall they that receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one, [even] Jesus Christ. So then as through one trespass [the judgment came] unto all men to condemnation; even so through one act of righteousness [the free gift came] unto all men to justification of life. For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the one shall the many be made righteous. And the law came in besides, that the trespass might abound; but where sin abounded, grace did abound more exceedingly: that, as sin reigned in death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. (Romans 5)


What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. We who died to sin, how shall we any longer live therein? Or are ye ignorant that all we who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were buried therefore with him through baptism unto death: that like as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we also might walk in newness of life.

For if we have become united with [him] in the likeness of his death, we shall be also [in the likeness] of his resurrection; knowing this, that our old man was crucified with [him], that the body of sin might be done away, that so we should no longer be in bondage to sin; for he that hath died is justified from sin.

But if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him; knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death no more hath dominion over him. For the death that he died, he died unto sin once: but the life that he liveth, he liveth unto God. Even so reckon ye also yourselves to be dead unto sin, but alive unto God in Christ Jesus.

Holiness, not sin, to be the master

Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey the lusts thereof: neither present your members unto sin [as] instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves unto God, as alive from the dead, and your members [as] instruments of righteousness unto God. For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under law, but under grace.

The Christian is freed from the slavery of sin

What then? shall we sin, because we are not under law, but under grace? God forbid. Know ye not, that to whom ye present yourselves [as] servants unto obedience, his servants ye are whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? But thanks be to God, that, whereas ye were servants of sin, ye became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching whereunto ye were delivered; and being made free from sin, ye became servants of righteousness. I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye presented your members [as] servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity, even so now present your members [as] servants to righteousness unto sanctification.

The reward of sin and the reward of holiness

For when ye were servants of sin, ye were free in regard of righteousness. What fruit then had ye at that time in the things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death. But now being made free from sin and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto sanctification, and the end eternal life. For the wages of sin is death; but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. (Romans 6)

The Christian's spiritual life

The life of the spirit

There is therefore now no condemnation to them that are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus made me free from the law of sin and of death. For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God, sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: that the ordinance of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

For they that are after the flesh mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. For the mind of the flesh is death; but the mind of the Spirit is life and peace: because the mind of the flesh is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can it be: and they that are in the flesh cannot please God. But ye are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you. But if any man hath not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the spirit is life because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwelleth in you, he that raised up Christ Jesus from the dead shall give life also to your mortal bodies through his Spirit that dwelleth in you. (Romans 8:1-11)

A hymn to God's love

What then shall we say to these things? If God [is] for us, who [is] against us? He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not also with him freely give us all things? Who shall lay anything to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth; who is he that condemneth? It is Christ Jesus that died, yea rather, that was raised from the dead, who is at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or anguish, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? Even as it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; We were accounted as sheep for the slaughter. Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.

For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate From the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. (Romans 8:31-39)

The place of Israel

All has been foretold in the Old Testament

And, as Isaiah hath said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, We had become as Sodom, and had been made like unto Gomorrah.

What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, who followed not after righteousness, attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith: but Israel, following after a law of righteousness, did not arrive at [that] law. Wherefore? Because [they sought it] not by faith, but as it were by works. They stumbled at the stone of stumbling; even as it is written, Behold, I lay in Zion a stone of stumbling and a rock of offence: And he that believeth on him shall not be put to shame.

Israel fails to see that it is God that makes us holy

Brethren, my heart's desire and my supplication to God is for them, that they may be saved. For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. For being ignorant of God's righteousness, and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God. For Christ is the end of the law unto righteousness to every one that believeth.

The testimony of Moses

For Moses writeth that the man that doeth the righteousness which is of the law shall live thereby. But the righteousness which is of faith saith thus, Say not in thy heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down:) or, Who shall descend into the abyss? (That is, to bring Christ up from the dead.) But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach: Because if thou shalt confess with thy mouth Jesus [as] Lord, and shalt believe in thy heart that God raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved: for with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be put to shame. For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek: for the same [Lord] is Lord of all, and is rich unto all that call upon him:, For Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Israel has no excuse

How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? and how shall they preach, except they be sent? even as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that bring glad tidings of good things!" But they did not all hearken to the glad tidings. For Isaiah saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? So belief [cometh] of hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.

But I say, Did they not hear? Yea, verily, Their sound went out into all the earth, And Their words unto the ends of the world. But I say, Did Israel not know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy with that which is no nation, With a nation void of understanding will I anger you. And Isaiah is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I became manifest unto them that asked not of me. But as to Israel he saith, All the day long did I spread out my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people. (Romans 9:29-10:21)

VargasMilan (talk) Wednesday, 03:37, 27 May 2020 (EDT)

Rob's comments: All have sinned, is a reference to the catholic or universal state of fallen man. The grace of God has always existed. By faith or through faith we seize upon this grace. This presages any baptism, i.e. God's grace existed before we take advantage of it by our faith, it does not come at the time of baptism or afterwards. RobSLive Free or Die 10:39, 27 May 2020 (EDT)
The portion on Romans 6, from above:
"What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. We who died to sin, how shall we any longer live therein? Or are ye ignorant that all we who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were buried therefore with him through baptism unto death: that like as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we also might walk in newness of life.
"For if we have become united with [him] in the likeness of his death, we shall be also [in the likeness] of his resurrection; knowing this, that our old man was crucified with [him], that the body of sin might be done away, that so we should no longer be in bondage to sin; for he that hath died is justified from sin.
"But if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him."
In Baptism, we were baptized into Christ's Death. If His Death is Life-Giving, surely Baptism is Life-giving. Hence, we walk in newness of life after baptism. Again, it is said, he who has died is justified from sin. And then that we died with Christ in Baptism. And hence the conclusion follows, that in Baptism, we were justified from sin. There are other passages also that confirm this, some were cited in the article. The other passages confirm we were redeemed for a life of holiness. We have been bought at a great price. We are not our own. Hence we must now live holy lives, and not go back to sin, as the Bible says. NishantXavierFor Christ the King 13:45, 27 May 2020 (EDT)
There's is very little to disagree with any thing there, or anything you said. So, Did this salvation come by faith or by baptism? RobSLive Free or Die 14:28, 27 May 2020 (EDT)
Seriously, let's ask a hypothetical: Let's assume Adolf Hitler was never baptized Roman Catholic; and let's further assume that after he shot himself in the head, he lived for three or four minutes; and let's further assume after the shot was fired, a steward rushed into the room and sprinkled water on his forehead and said "I baptize thee in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost." Under Roman Catholic doctrine, since faith is not necessary for salvation, neither is the conscious consent of the believer, would Adolf Hitler then be standing before God blameless, without spot or wrinkle? RobSLive Free or Die 15:18, 27 May 2020 (EDT)
RobS, I would rephrase that, if I were you, or someone might bring this discussion to an end by invoking Godwin's Law. VargasMilan (talk) Wednesday, 15:33, 27 May 2020 (EDT)
(ec)The first objection would be, "No", cause he died with mortal sin unable to confess; but than how could he confess without being baptized first into the Roman Church? Here we have, under Roman Church doctrine, a nullification of whosoever or the universal availability of salvation cause salvation evidently is limited to a clique. RobSLive Free or Die 15:37, 27 May 2020 (EDT)

I and II Corinthians


The resurrection of the dead

The fact of the resurrection

Now I make known unto you brethren, the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye received, wherein also ye stand, by which also ye are saved, if ye hold fast the word which I preached unto you, except ye believed in vain. For I delivered unto you first of all that which also I received: that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; and that he was buried; and that he hath been raised on the third day according to the scriptures; (I Corinthians 15:1-4)

Now if Christ is preached that he hath been raised from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead? But if there is no resurrection of the dead, neither hath Christ been raised: and if Christ hath not been raised, then is our preaching vain, your faith also is vain. Yea, we are found false witnesses of God; because we witnessed of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead are not raised. For if the dead are not raised, neither hath Christ been raised: and if Christ hath not been raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. Then they also that are fallen asleep in Christ have perished. If we have only hoped in Christ in this life, we are of all men most pitiable.

But now hath Christ been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of them that are asleep. For since by man [came] death, by man [came] also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; then they that are Christ's, at his coming. (I Corinthians 15:12-23)

hmmm, ...your faith is vain... repeated twice. It doesn't say your baptism is in vain. Most importantly, this faith is requisite before salvation; and we are exhorted to continue in faith. RobSLive Free or Die 14:53, 27 May 2020 (EDT)


Some recent events reviewed

The Apostolate in action

For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that one died for all, therefore all died; and he died for all, that they that live should no longer live unto themselves, but unto him who for their sakes died and rose again.

Wherefore we henceforth know no man after the flesh: even though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now we know [him so] no more. Wherefore if any man is in Christ, [he is] a new creature: the old things are passed away; behold, they are become new. But all things are of God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ, and gave unto us the ministry of reconciliation; to wit, that God was in Christ reconciling the world unto himself, not reckoning unto them their trespasses, and having committed unto us the word of reconciliation. We are ambassadors therefore on behalf of Christ, as though God were entreating by us: we beseech [you] on behalf of Christ, be ye reconciled to God. Him who knew no sin he made [to be] sin on our behalf; that we might become the righteousness of God in him. (II Corinthians: 5:14-21)

VargasMilan (talk) Wednesday, 14:14, 27 May 2020 (EDT)

A new creature in Christ by the blood of the lamb

This famous passage of being a new creature hearkens back again to Jeremiah that, for my money, is one of the most important passages in the bible: Jeremiah 18. The vessel was marred in the potter's hand. God takes the blame for man's imperfections. What shall I do? I will remake the vessel. RobSLive Free or Die 14:58, 27 May 2020 (EDT)
How do you know it's not an a fortiori argument? VargasMilan (talk) Wednesday, 16:13, 27 May 2020 (EDT)
Let's lay the two side by side:
  • the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.
  • if any man is in Christ, [he is] a new creature
We already know about the grace of God from Jeremiah 3:1.
He bore our sins in his own body speaks of God reconciling the world to himself. RobSLive Free or Die 16:55, 27 May 2020 (EDT)
IOWs, paraphrasing, God says, "I screwed up when I made you. And only I can fix you." RobSLive Free or Die 17:03, 27 May 2020 (EDT)
You can go as far back as Genesis 22:8, God will provide himself a lamb. Well in Genesis the lamb never appeared (it was a ram caught in the thicket). The lamb didn't appear until John chapter 1 when John the Baptist said, Behold, the lamb of God. RobSLive Free or Die 17:12, 27 May 2020 (EDT)
That's a clever observation, but maybe the lamb was being spoken of synecdochally? VargasMilan (talk) Wednesday, 20:03, 27 May 2020 (EDT)
John the Baptist was saying that this was fulfillment of the prophecy spoken of by Abraham. God commanded Abraham to take thy son, thy only son (discounting the son born of the will of the flesh, Ishmael) and sacrifice him after promising Abraham's seed would be multiplied as the stars of the heaven. What then, can we say that Abraham our father as pertaining faith has found? Abraham believed in the resurrection, that God would somehow make Isaac live again to fulfil God's promise of multiplying Abraham's seed as the stars of heaven. It was every thought and intent of Abraham's heart to fulfil God's command to sacrifice Isaac.
This same faith in the resurrection is what saves us. RobSLive Free or Die 20:43, 27 May 2020 (EDT)


Grace to you and peace from God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us out of this present evil world, according to the will of our God and Father: (Galatians 1:3-4)

The Good News as proclaimed by Paul

[Y]et knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, even we believed on Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the law: because by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. But if, while we sought to be justified in Christ, we ourselves also were found sinners, is Christ a minister of sin? God forbid. For if I build up again those things which I destroyed, I prove myself a transgressor. For I through the law died unto the law, that I might live unto God. I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I that live, but Christ living in me: and that [life] which I now live in the flesh I live in faith, [the faith] which is in the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself up for me. I do not make void the grace of God: for if righteousness is through the law, then Christ died for nought. (Galatians 2: 16-21)

The purpose of the law

What then is the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise hath been made; [and it was] ordained through angels by the hand of a mediator. Now a mediator is not [a mediator] of one; but God is one. Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could make alive, verily righteousness would have been of the law. But the scriptures shut up all things under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

The coming of faith

But before faith came, we were kept in ward under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. So that the law is become our tutor [to bring us] unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But now faith that is come, we are no longer under a tutor. For ye are all sons of God, through faith, in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as were baptized into Christ did put on Christ. (Galatians 3:19-27)

Ewww wow. I've always encouraged bible students to read this book first, before Romans. It was written before Romans. After reading what these opening chapters say about faith, Dataclarifer needs to pay serious attention to
  • if I build up again those things which I destroyed, I prove myself a transgressor
before he starts trash talking sola fide. RobSLive Free or Die 21:13, 28 May 2020 (EDT)


God's plan of salvation

[H]aving foreordained us unto adoption as sons through Jesus Christ unto himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, to the praise of the glory of his grace, which he freely bestowed on us in the Beloved: in whom we have our redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace,... (Ephesians 1:5-7)

[T]o the end that we should be unto the praise of his glory, we who had before hoped in Christ: in whom ye also, having heard the word of the truth, the gospel of your salvation,—in whom, having also believed, ye were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, which is an earnest of our inheritance, unto the redemption of [God's] own possession, unto the praise of his glory. (Ephesians 1:12-14)

Salvation in Christ a free gift

And you [did he make alive,] when ye were dead through your trespasses and sins, wherein ye once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the powers of the air, of the spirit that now worketh in the sons of disobedience; among whom we also all once lived in the lust of our flesh, doing the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest:—but God, being rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, even when we were dead through our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace have ye been saved), and raised us up with him, and made us to sit with him in the heavenly [places], in Christ Jesus:

[T]hat in the ages to come he might show the exceeding riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus: for by grace have ye been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, [it is] the gift of God; not of works, that no man should glory. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God afore prepared that we should walk in them.

Reconciliation of the Jews and the pagans with each other and with God

Wherefore remember, that once ye, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called Circumcision, in the flesh, made by hands; that ye were at that time separate from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of the promise, having no hope and without God in the world. But now in Christ Jesus ye that once were far off are made nigh in the blood of Christ. For he is our peace, who made both one, and brake down the middle wall of partition, having abolished in the flesh the enmity, [even] the law of commandments [contained] in ordinances; that he might create in himself of the two one new man, [so] making peace; and might reconcile them both in one body unto God through the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: and he came and preached peace to you that were far off, and peace to them that were nigh: for through him we both have our access in one Spirit unto the Father.

So then ye are no more strangers and sojourners, but ye are fellow-citizens with the saints, and of the household of God, being built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the chief corner stone; in whom each several building, fitly framed together, groweth into a holy temple in the Lord; in whom ye also are builded together for a habitation of God in the Spirit. (Ephesians 2)

VargasMilan (talk) Friday, 08:24, 29 May 2020 (EDT)



Thanksgiving and prayer

[G]iving thanks unto the Father, who made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light;

Who delivered us out of the power of darkness, and translated us into the kingdom of the Son of his love; in whom we have our redemption, the forgiveness of our sins:... (Colossians 1:12-14)


Christ is the head of all creation

For it was the good pleasure [of the Father] that in him should all the fulness dwell; and through him to reconcile all things unto himself, having made peace through the blood of his cross; through him, [I say], whether things upon the earth, or things in the heavens.

The Colossians have their share in salvation

And you, being in time past alienated and enemies in your mind in your evil works, yet now hath he reconciled in the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and without blemish and unreproveable before him: if so be that ye continue in the faith, grounded and stedfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel which ye heard, which was preached in all creation under heaven; whereof I Paul was made a minister.

Paul's labours in the service of the pagans

Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and fill up on my part that which is lacking of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church; (Colossians 1:19-24)


Christ alone is the true head of men and angels

[I]n whom ye were also circumcised with a circumcision not made with hands, in the putting off of the body of the flesh, in the circumcision of Christ; having been buried with him in baptism, wherein ye were also raised with him through faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead. And you, being dead through your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, you, [I say], did he make alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses;

[H]aving blotted out the bond written in ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us: and he hath taken it out that way, nailing it to the cross; having despoiled the principalities and the powers, he made a show of them openly, triumphing over them in it. (Colossians 2:11-15)

VargasMilan (talk) Saturday, 22:37, 30 May 2020 (EDT)

1 Timothy

Liturgical prayer

For there is one God, one mediator also between God and men, [himself] man, Christ Jesus, who gave himself a ransom for all; the testimony [to be borne] in its own times; whereunto I was appointed a preacher and an apostle (I speak the truth, I lie not), a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth. (1 Timothy 2:5-7)

VargasMilan (talk) Saturday, 22:37, 30 May 2020 (EDT)

One Peter

Continuing with the Epistles,

[1] Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers dispersed through Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, elect, [2] According to the foreknowledge of God the Father, unto the sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you and peace be multiplied. [3] Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to his great mercy hath regenerated us unto a lively hope, by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, [4] Unto an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that can not fade, reserved in heaven for you, [5] Who, by the power of God, are kept by faith unto salvation, ready to be revealed in the last time.

[6] Wherein you shall greatly rejoice, if now you must be for a little time made sorrowful in divers temptations: [7] That the trial of your faith (much more precious than gold which is tried by the fire) may be found unto praise and glory and honour at the appearing of Jesus Christ: [8] Whom having not seen, you love: in whom also now, though you see him not, you believe: and believing shall rejoice with joy unspeakable and glorified; [9] Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls. [10] Of which salvation the prophets have inquired and diligently searched, who prophesied of the grace to come in you.

[11] Searching what or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ in them did signify: when it foretold those sufferings that are in Christ, and the glories that should follow: [12] To whom it was revealed, that not to themselves, but to you they ministered those things which are now declared to you by them that have preached the gospel to you, the Holy Ghost being sent down from heaven, on whom the angels desire to look. [13] Wherefore having the loins of your mind girt up, being sober, trust perfectly in the grace which is offered you in the revelation of Jesus Christ, [14] As children of obedience, not fashioned according to the former desires of your ignorance: [15] But according to him that hath called you, who is holy, be you also in all manner of conversation holy:

[16] Because it is written: You shall be holy, for I am holy. [17] And if you invoke as Father him who, without respect of persons, judgeth according to every one's work: converse in fear during the time of your sojourning here. [18] Knowing that you were not redeemed with corruptible things as gold or silver, from your vain conversation of the tradition of your fathers: [19] But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb unspotted and undefiled, [20] Foreknown indeed before the foundation of the world, but manifested in the last times for you,

[21] Who through him are faithful in God, who raised him up from the dead, and hath given him glory, that your faith and hope might be in God. [22] Purifying your souls in the obedience of charity, with a brotherly love, from a sincere heart love one another earnestly: [23] Being born again not of corruptible seed, but incorruptible, by the word of God who liveth and remaineth for ever. [24] For all flesh is as grass; and all the glory thereof as the flower of grass. The grass is withered, and the flower thereof is fallen away. [25] But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel hath been preached unto you. [1 Pet 1]

[1] Wherefore laying away all malice, and all guile, and dissimulations, and envies, and all detractions, [2] As newborn babes, desire the rational milk without guile, that thereby you may grow unto salvation: [3] If so be you have tasted that the Lord is sweet. [4] Unto whom coming, as to a living stone, rejected indeed by men, but chosen and made honourable by God: [5] Be you also as living stones built up, a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

[6] Wherefore it is said in the scripture: Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious. And he that shall believe in him, shall not be confounded. [7] To you therefore that believe, he is honour: but to them that believe not, the stone which the builders rejected, the same is made the head of the corner: [8] And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of scandal, to them who stumble at the word, neither do believe, whereunto also they are set. [9] But you are a chosen generation, a kingly priesthood, a holy nation, a purchased people: that you may declare his virtues, who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light: [10] Who in time past were not a people: but are now the people of God. Who had not obtained mercy; but now have obtained mercy.

[11] Dearly beloved, I beseech you as strangers and pilgrims, to refrain yourselves from carnal desires which war against the soul, [12] Having your conversation good among the Gentiles: that whereas they speak against you as evildoers, they may, by the good works, which they shall behold in you, glorify God in the day of visitation. [13] Be ye subject therefore to every human creature for God's sake: whether it be to the king as excelling; [14] Or to governors as sent by him for the punishment of evildoers, and for the praise of the good: [15] For so is the will of God, that by doing well you may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men:

[16] As free, and not as making liberty a cloak for malice, but as the servants of God. [17] Honour all men. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honour the king. [18] Servants, be subject to your masters with all fear, not only to the good and gentle, but also to the froward. [19] For this is thankworthy, if for conscience towards God, a man endure sorrows, suffering wrongfully. [20] For what glory is it, if committing sin, and being buffeted for it, you endure? But if doing well you suffer patiently; this is thankworthy before God.

[21] For unto this are you called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving you an example that you should follow his steps. [22] Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth. [23] Who, when he was reviled, did not revile: when he suffered, he threatened not: but delivered himself to him that judged him unjustly. [24] Who his own self bore our sins in his body upon the tree: that we, being dead to sins, should live to justice: by whose stripes you were healed. [25] For you were as sheep going astray; but you are now converted to the shepherd and bishop of your souls. [1 Pet 2]

[1] In like manner also let wives be subject to their husbands: that if any believe not the word, they may be won without the word, by the conversation of the wives. [2] Considering your chaste conversation with fear. [3] Whose adorning let it not be the outward plaiting of the hair, or the wearing of gold, or the putting on of apparel: [4] But the hidden man of the heart in the incorruptibility of a quiet and a meek spirit, which is rich in the sight of God. [5] For after this manner heretofore the holy women also, who trusted in God, adorned themselves, being in subjection to their own husbands:

[6] As Sara obeyed Abraham, calling him lord: whose daughters you are, doing well, and not fearing any disturbance. [7] Ye husbands, likewise dwelling with them according to knowledge, giving honour to the female as to the weaker vessel, and as to the co-heirs of the grace of life: that your prayers be not hindered. [8] And in fine, be ye all of one mind, having compassion one of another, being lovers of the brotherhood, merciful, modest, humble: [9] Not rendering evil for evil, nor railing for railing, but contrariwise, blessing: for unto this are you called, that you may inherit a blessing. [10] For he that will love life, and see good days, let him refrain his tongue from evil, and his lips that they speak no guile.

[11] Let him decline from evil, and do good: let him seek after peace and pursue it: [12] Because the eyes of the Lord are upon the just, and his ears unto their prayers: but the countenance of the Lord upon them that do evil things. [13] And who is he that can hurt you, if you be zealous of good? [14] But if also you suffer any thing for justice' sake, blessed are ye. And be not afraid of their fear, and be not troubled. [15] But sanctify the Lord Christ in your hearts, being ready always to satisfy every one that asketh you a reason of that hope which is in you.

[16] But with modesty and fear, having a good conscience: that whereas they speak evil of you, they may be ashamed who falsely accuse your good conversation in Christ. [17] For it is better doing well (if such be the will of God) to suffer, than doing ill. [18] Because Christ also died once for our sins, the just for the unjust: that he might offer us to God, being put to death indeed in the flesh, but enlivened in the spirit, [19] In which also coming he preached to those spirits that were in prison: [20] Which had been some time incredulous, when they waited for the patience of God in the days of Noe, when the ark was a building: wherein a few, that is, eight souls, were saved by water. [21] Whereunto baptism being of the like form, now saveth you also: not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the examination of a good conscience towards God by the resurrection of Jesus Christ. [22] Who is on the right hand of God, swallowing down death, that we might be made heirs of life everlasting: being gone into heaven, the angels and powers and virtues being made subject to him. [1 Pet 3]

[1] Christ therefore having suffered in the flesh, be you also armed with the same thought: for he that hath suffered in the flesh, hath ceased from sins: [2] That now he may live the rest of his time in the flesh, not after the desires of men, but according to the will of God. [3] For the time past is sufficient to have fulfilled the will of the Gentiles, for them who have walked in riotousness, lusts, excess of wine, revellings, banquetings, and unlawful worshipping of idols. [4] Wherein they think it strange, that you run not with them into the same confusion of riotousness, speaking evil of you. [5] Who shall render account to him, who is ready to judge the living and the dead.

[6] For, for this cause was the gospel preached also to the dead: that they might be judged indeed according to men, in the flesh; but may live according to God, in the Spirit. [7] But the end of all is at hand. Be prudent therefore, and watch in prayers. [8] But before all things have a constant mutual charity among yourselves: for charity covereth a multitude of sins. [9] Using hospitality one towards another, without murmuring, [10] As every man hath received grace, ministering the same one to another: as good stewards of the manifold grace of God.

[11] If any man speak, let him speak, as the words of God. If any man minister, let him do it, as of the power, which God administereth: that in all things God may be honoured through Jesus Christ: to whom is glory and empire for ever and ever. Amen. [12] Dearly beloved, think not strange the burning heat which is to try you, as if some new thing happened to you; [13] But if you partake of the sufferings of Christ, rejoice that when his glory shall be revealed, you may also be glad with exceeding joy. [14] If you be reproached for the name of Christ, you shall be blessed: for that which is of the honour, glory, and power of God, and that which is his Spirit, resteth upon you. [15] But let none of you suffer as a murderer, or a thief, or a railer, or a coveter of other men's things.

[16] But if as a Christian, let him not be ashamed, but let him glorify God in that name. [17] For the time is, that judgment should begin at the house of God. And if first at us, what shall be the end of them that believe not the gospel of God? [18] And if the just man shall scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear? [19] Wherefore let them also that suffer according to the will of God, commend their souls in good deeds to the faithful Creator. [1 Pet 4]

[1] The ancients therefore that are among you, I beseech, who am myself also an ancient, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ: as also a partaker of that glory which is to be revealed in time to come: [2] Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking care of it, not by constraint, but willingly, according to God: not for filthy lucre's sake, but voluntarily: [3] Neither as lording it over the clergy, but being made a pattern of the flock from the heart. [4] And when the prince of pastors shall appear, you shall receive a never fading crown of glory. [5] In like manner, ye young men, be subject to the ancients. And do you all insinuate humility one to another, for God resisteth the proud, but to the humble he giveth grace.

[6] Be you humbled therefore under the mighty hand of God, that he may exalt you in the time of visitation: [7] Casting all your care upon him, for he hath care of you. [8] Be sober and watch: because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, goeth about seeking whom he may devour. [9] Whom resist ye, strong in faith: knowing that the same affliction befalls your brethren who are in the world. [10] But the God of all grace, who hath called us into his eternal glory in Christ Jesus, after you have suffered a little, will himself perfect you, and confirm you, and establish you.

[11] To him be glory and empire for ever and ever. Amen. [12] By Sylvanus, a faithful brother unto you, as I think, I have written briefly: beseeching and testifying that this is the true grace of God, wherein you stand. [13] The church that is in Babylon, elected together with you, saluteth you: and so doth my son Mark. [14] Salute one another with a holy kiss. Grace be to all you, who are in Christ Jesus. Amen. [1 Pet 5]

St. Peter the Apostle - Baptism now saves us by the Resurrection of Jesus Christ

"The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:" (1 Pet 3:21).

The text is simple and self-explanatory. Baptism now saves us by the Resurrection of Jesus Christ. It is the answer of a good conscience toward God. It was prefigured in many ways in the Prophets.

ETA: Needless to say, I agree with Vargas Milan that Protestant Baptism (and all Trinitarian Baptism, done as Christ commanded in the Great Commission in Mat 28:19) is valid and never said otherwise.

It's good if you have a valid Baptism. It's good if you believe Jesus is Lord and Savior. So do we. We believe Jesus is God Who died for our sins, and shed His blood for our Redemption. Now, let us move forward.

The Catholic Church believes other Christians are our separated brethren: "818 "However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers . . . . All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church."272" NishantXavierFor Christ the King 15:21, 24 May 2020 (EDT)

Ok, then explain this portion of scripture:
  • baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh
RobSLive Free or Die 16:10, 24 May 2020 (EDT)

Yes, baptism is not just washing the body, but it is cleansing the soul. The bottom line is the verse says, "Baptism doth also now save us ... by the resurrection of Jesus Christ". Baptism does now save us by the Resurrection of Jesus Christ. St. Peter would not have said this if Baptism did nothing NishantXavierFor Christ the King 18:19, 24 May 2020 (EDT)

Oh, so not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, i.e. repentance, does not save. You are not far from the once saved, always saved doctrine. Additionally, I take your response as meaning baptism is symbolic. RobSLive Free or Die 18:31, 24 May 2020 (EDT)
Long story short: This alleged doctrine of water baptism does not really say baptism saves; it teaches that baptism is a qualifier, kinda like a cover charge at the door, that qualifies you to compete in the salvation sweepstakes. RobSLive Free or Die 18:34, 24 May 2020 (EDT)

NishantXavierFor Christ the King 18:41, 24 May 2020 (EDT) Baptism cleanses the soul. If the person was in original sin only, i.e. being born of the flesh he lacked the Holy Spirit, he receives the Holy Spirit in Baptism. Hence St. Peter said be baptized and you will receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. King David said, Take not Thy Holy Spirit from me, so we see that receiving the Holy Spirit once is not a guarantee of perseverance to the end. After Baptism, we must pray for perseverance. NishantXavierFor Christ the King 18:41, 24 May 2020 (EDT)

So you agree, water baptism does not save; it's just a qualifier for admission to the sweepstakes. RobSLive Free or Die 19:10, 24 May 2020 (EDT)
Let's expound on this further. NishantXavier says, "being born of the flesh he lacked the Holy Spirit, he receives the Holy Spirit in Baptism."
  • However in Acts chapter 8: when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost: 16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)
  • Acts chapter 19: We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost. 3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism. 4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. 5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them
  • The whole clan of the Apostles did not receive the Holy Spirit until Pentecost. Other examples abound of baptized persons not receiving the Holy Spirit at baptism.
This assertion, that the Holy Spirit is received at baptism, has no biblical basis whatsoever. You have to forgive me if I present this information somewhat awkwardly. I am more accustomed to teaching the bible as a whole rather than pointing out errant doctrines in other's. RobSLive Free or Die 03:44, 25 May 2020 (EDT)

More commentary

  • If any man speak, let him speak, as the words of God.
This is why I abandoned catechism class for the word of God. RobSLive Free or Die 22:15, 30 May 2020 (EDT)
2 Peter isn't relevant to anything about why we need a mediator between God and Man. VargasMilan (talk) Sunday, 06:59, 31 May 2020 (EDT)

St. James' Epistle

[1] James the servant of God, and of our Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting. [2] My brethren, count it all joy, when you shall fall into divers temptations; [3] Knowing that the trying of your faith worketh patience. [4] And patience hath a perfect work; that you may be perfect and entire, failing in nothing. [5] But if any of you want wisdom, let him ask of God, who giveth to all men abundantly, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.

[6] But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea, which is moved and carried about by the wind. [7] Therefore let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord. [8] A double minded man is inconstant in all his ways. [9] But let the brother of low condition glory in his exaltation: [10] And the rich, in his being low; because as the flower of the grass shall he pass away.

[11] For the sun rose with a burning heat, and parched the grass, and the flower thereof fell off, and the beauty of the shape thereof perished: so also shall the rich man fade away in his ways. [12] Blessed is the man that endureth temptation; for when he hath been proved, he shall receive a crown of life, which God hath promised to them that love him. [13] Let no man, when he is tempted, say that he is tempted by God. For God is not a tempter of evils, and he tempteth no man. [14] But every man is tempted by his own concupiscence, being drawn away and allured. [15] Then when concupiscence hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin. But sin, when it is completed, begetteth death.

[16] Do not err, therefore, my dearest brethren. [17] Every best gift, and every perfect gift, is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no change, nor shadow of alteration. [18] For of his own will hath he begotten us by the word of truth, that we might be some beginning of his creatures. [19] You know, my dearest brethren. And let every man be swift to hear, but slow to speak, and slow to anger. [20] For the anger of man worketh not the justice of God.

[21] Wherefore casting away all uncleanness, and abundance of naughtiness, with meekness receive the ingrafted word, which is able to save your souls. [22] But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves. [23] For if a man be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he shall be compared to a man beholding his own countenance in a glass. [24] For he beheld himself, and went his way, and presently forgot what manner of man he was. [25] But he that hath looked into the perfect law of liberty, and hath continued therein, not becoming a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work; this man shall be blessed in his deed.

[26] And if any man think himself to be religious, not bridling his tongue, but deceiving his own heart, this man's religion is vain. [27] Religion clean and undefiled before God and the Father, is this: to visit the fatherless and widows in their tribulation: and to keep one's self unspotted from this world.[Jam 1]

[1] My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ of glory with respect of persons. [2] For if there shall come into your assembly a man having a golden ring, in fine apparel, and there shall come in also a poor man in mean attire, [3] And you have respect to him that is clothed with the fine apparel, and shall say to him: Sit thou here well; but say to the poor man: Stand thou there, or sit under my footstool: [4] Do you not judge within yourselves, and are become judges of unjust thoughts? [5] Hearken, my dearest brethren: hath not God chosen the poor in this world, rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which God hath promised to them that love him?

[6] But you have dishonoured the poor man. Do not the rich oppress you by might? and do not they draw you before the judgment seats? [7] Do not they blaspheme the good name that is invoked upon you? [8] If then you fulfill the royal law, according to the scriptures, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself; you do well. [9] But if you have respect to persons, you commit sin, being reproved by the law as transgressors. [10] And whosoever shall keep the whole law, but offend in one point, is become guilty of all.

[11] For he that said, Thou shalt not commit adultery, said also, Thou shalt not kill. Now if thou do not commit adultery, but shalt kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law. [12] So speak ye, and so do, as being to be judged by the law of liberty. [13] For judgment without mercy to him that hath not done mercy. And mercy exalteth itself above judgment. [14] What shall it profit, my brethren, if a man say he hath faith, but hath not works? Shall faith be able to save him? [15] And if a brother or sister be naked, and want daily food:

[16] And one of you say to them: Go in peace, be ye warmed and filled; yet give them not those things that are necessary for the body, what shall it profit? [17] So faith also, if it have not works, is dead in itself. [18] But some man will say: Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without works; and I will shew thee, by works, my faith. [19] Thou believest that there is one God. Thou dost well: the devils also believe and tremble. [20] But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

[21] Was not Abraham our father justified by works, offering up Isaac his son upon the altar? [22] Seest thou, that faith did co-operate with his works; and by works faith was made perfect? [23] And the scripture was fulfilled, saying: Abraham believed God, and it was reputed to him to justice, and he was called the friend of God. [24] Do you see that by works a man is justified; and not by faith only? [25] And in like manner also Rahab the harlot, was not she justified by works, receiving the messengers, and sending them out another way?

[26] For even as the body without the spirit is dead; so also faith without works is dead. [Jam 2]

  • mercy exalteth itself above judgment
This is the teaching in Jeremiah 3:1, when God breaks his own law to take back his adulterous wife. RobSLive Free or Die 21:58, 29 May 2020 (EDT)
It's also the same teaching we find in the Essay:Adulteress Story, with whom there is no change, nor shadow of alteration. RobSLive Free or Die 10:43, 30 May 2020 (EDT)

St. James says Mercy exalteth itself above Judgement in the context of proving that faith without works is dead. God Himself showed works of mercy while on earth. Likewise, the Apostle is saying we must also do works of mercy to others, otherwise judgment will be severe on us, just as the Lord had said, with what measure you mete out so it will be unto you. St. James says Abraham our father was justified not by faith alone but by his faith working through love, as when he sacrificed Isaac his son, a sacrificial work done out of love. Throughout the epistle, it is taught that prayer is powerful when a just man prays. Have you seen the sick healed through prayer? I have. Holiness of life is very important. It is not something superfluous, as some modern Christians think. The Great Saints of old did miracles. This St. James, who wrote this epistle, was regarded as a just man even by non-Christians. He was Bishop of Jerusalem and was martyred shortly before the destruction of the city. Notice in the end, he says the Priests must be called, they will anoint him with oil, and if he is sins, they will be forgiven him. This is called the Sacrament of unction or annointing of the sick. Finally, he who does a work of mercy in converting a sinner from the error of his ways will save his soul and cover a multitude of sins. NishantXavierFor Christ the King 13:31, 30 May 2020 (EDT)

God himself showed works of mercy in Jeremiah 3:1 long before Jesus was on earth. Jesus himself said, ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith, addressed to the Pharisees, the same Pharisees he said laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men...making the word of God of none effect.
  • the spirit gives life
  • we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter
And in the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith, I see mercy and faith, but not "water" or "baptism". RobSLive Free or Die 15:21, 30 May 2020 (EDT)
The book of James isn't relevant to to anything about why we need a mediator between God and Man. VargasMilan (talk) Sunday, 07:02, 31 May 2020 (EDT)
That may be a valid point. The most important verse I take away from James is:
  • if a man be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he shall be compared to a man beholding his own countenance in a glass (mirror). [24] For he beheld himself, and went his way, and presently forgot what manner of man he was.
This verse stresses the importance of the Word of God, vs. others who would trade the Word of God for church doctrine (rendering the word to no effect), catechism, and sacraments. The Word is a mirror into ourselves, and is more important than church doctrine, sacraments, or catechism. Those doctrines of men do not show us the holiness of God and our own sinfulness, which leads us to repentance. So in a sense, James emphasis on the importance of the Word carries the need for a mediator. RobSLive Free or Die 13:57, 31 May 2020 (EDT)

1 John


First condition: break with sin

My little children, these things write I unto you that ye may not sin. And if any man sin, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: and he is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for the whole world. (1 John 2:1-2)

VargasMilan (talk) Saturday, 22:38, 30 May 2020 (EDT)

So we have access, a defense attorney, a direct pipeline. We don't need a confession booth. RobSLive Free or Die 14:05, 31 May 2020 (EDT)

Revelation Three Chapters

[1] The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to make known to his servants the things which must shortly come to pass: and signified, sending by his angel to his servant John, [2] Who hath given testimony to the word of God, and the testimony of Jesus Christ, what things soever he hath seen. [3] Blessed is he, that readeth and heareth the words of this prophecy; and keepeth those things which are written in it; for the time is at hand. [4] John to the seven churches which are in Asia. Grace be unto you and peace from him that is, and that was, and that is to come, and from the seven spirits which are before his throne, [5] And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth, who hath loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

[6] And hath made us a kingdom, and priests to God and his Father, to him be glory and empire for ever and ever. Amen. [7] Behold, he cometh with the clouds, and every eye shall see him, and they also that pierced him. And all the tribes of the earth shall bewail themselves because of him. Even so. Amen. [8] I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, saith the Lord God, who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty. [9] I John, your brother and your partner in tribulation, and in the kingdom, and patience in Christ Jesus, was in the island, which is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus. [10] I was in the spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

[11] Saying: What thou seest, write in a book, and send to the seven churches which are in Asia, to Ephesus, and to Smyrna, and to Pergamus, and to Thyatira, and to Sardis, and to Philadelphia, and to Laodicea. [12] And I turned to see the voice that spoke with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks: [13] And in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks, one like to the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the feet, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle. [14] And his head and his hairs were white, as white wool, and as snow, and his eyes were as a flame of fire, [15] And his feet like unto fine brass, as in a burning furnace. And his voice as the sound of many waters.

[16] And he had in his right hand seven stars. And from his mouth came out a sharp two edged sword: and his face was as the sun shineth in his power. [17] And when I had seen him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying: Fear not. I am the First and the Last, [18] And alive, and was dead, and behold I am living for ever and ever, and have the keys of death and of hell. [19] Write therefore the things which thou hast seen, and which are, and which must be done hereafter. [20] The mystery of the seven stars, which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches. And the seven candlesticks are the seven churches. [Apoc 1]

[1] Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write: These things saith he, who holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks: [2] I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them that are evil, and thou hast tried them, who say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars: [3] And thou hast patience, and hast endured for my name, and hast not fainted. [4] But I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first charity. [5] Be mindful therefore from whence thou art fallen: and do penance, and do the first works. Or else I come to thee, and will move thy candlestick out of its place, except thou do penance.

[6] But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaites, which I also hate. [7] He, that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith to the churches: To him, that overcometh, I will give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the paradise of my God. [8] And to the angel of the church of Smyrna write: These things saith the First and the Last, who was dead, and is alive: [9] I know thy tribulation and thy poverty, but thou art rich: and thou art blasphemed by them that say they are Jews and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan. [10] Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer. Behold, the devil will cast some of you into prison that you may be tried: and you shall have tribulation ten days. Be thou faithful until death: and I will give thee the crown of life.

[11] He, that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith to the churches: He that shall overcome, shall not be hurt by the second death. [12] And to the angel of the church of Pergamus write: These things, saith he, that hath the sharp two edged sword: [13] I know where thou dwellest, where the seat of Satan is: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith. Even in those days when Antipas was my faithful witness, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth. [14] But I have against thee a few things: because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat, and to commit fornication: [15] So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaites.

[16] In like manner do penance: if not, I will come to thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth. [17] He, that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith to the churches: To him that overcometh, I will give the hidden manna, and will give him a white counter, and in the counter, a new name written, which no man knoweth, but he that receiveth it. [18] And to the angel of the church of Thyatira write: These things saith the Son of God, who hath his eyes like to a flame of fire, and his feet like to fine brass. [19] I know thy works, and thy faith, and thy charity, and thy ministry, and thy patience, and thy last works which are more than the former. [20] But I have against thee a few things: because thou sufferest the woman Jezabel, who calleth herself a prophetess, to teach, and to seduce my servants, to commit fornication, and to eat of things sacrificed to idols.

[21] And I gave her a time that she might do penance, and she will not repent of her fornication. [22] Behold, I will cast her into a bed: and they that commit adultery with her shall be in very great tribulation, except they do penance from their deeds. [23] And I will kill her children with death, and all the churches shall know that I am he that searcheth the reins and hearts, and I will give to every one of you according to your works. But to you I say, [24] And to the rest who are at Thyatira: Whosoever have not this doctrine, and who have not known the depths of Satan, as they say, I will not put upon you any other burthen. [25] Yet that, which you have, hold fast till I come.

[26] And he that shall overcome, and keep my works unto the end, I will give him power over the nations. [27] And he shall rule them with a rod of iron, and as the vessel of a potter they shall be broken, [28] As I also have received of my Father: and I will give him the morning star. [29] He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith to the churches. [Apoc 2]

[1] And to the angel of the church of Sardis, write: These things saith he, that hath the seven spirits of God, and the seven stars: I know thy works, that thou hast the name of being alive: and thou art dead. [2] Be watchful and strengthen the things that remain, which are ready to die. For I find not thy works full before my God. [3] Have in mind therefore in what manner thou hast received and heard: and observe, and do penance. If then thou shalt not watch, I will come to thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know at what hour I will come to thee. [4] But thou hast a few names in Sardis, which have not defiled their garments: and they shall walk with me in white, because they are worthy. [5] He that shall overcome, shall thus be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, and I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

[6] He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith to the churches. [7] And to the angel of the church of Philadelphia, write: These things saith the Holy One and the true one, he that hath the key of David; he that openeth, and no man shutteth; shutteth, and no man openeth: [8] I know thy works. Behold, I have given before thee a door opened, which no man can shut: because thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name. [9] Behold, I will bring of the synagogue of Satan, who say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie. Behold, I will make them to come and adore before thy feet. And they shall know that I have loved thee. [10] Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I will also keep thee from the hour of the temptation, which shall come upon the whole world to try them that dwell upon the earth.

[11] Behold, I come quickly: hold fast that which thou hast, that no man take thy crown. [12] He that shall overcome, I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God; and he shall go out no more; and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God, and my new name. [13] He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith to the churches. [14] And to the angel of the church of Laodicea, write: These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, who is the beginning of the creation of God: [15] I know thy works, that thou art neither cold, nor hot. I would thou wert cold, or hot. [16] But because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold, nor hot, I will begin to vomit thee out of my mouth. [17] Because thou sayest: I am rich, and made wealthy, and have need of nothing: and knowest not, that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked. [18] I counsel thee to buy of me gold fire tried, that thou mayest be made rich; and mayest be clothed in white garments, and that the shame of thy nakedness may not appear; and anoint thy eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see. [19] Such as I love, I rebuke and chastise. Be zealous therefore, and do penance. [20] Behold, I stand at the gate, and knock. If any man shall hear my voice, and open to me the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

[21] To him that shall overcome, I will give to sit with me in my throne: as I also have overcome, and am set down with my Father in his throne. [22] He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith to the churches. [Apoc 3]

Why we need a mediator between God and man, part II: Church Doctors

Augustine of Hippo


Jesus Christ, the Mediator, is the only way of safety

And I sought a way of acquiring strength sufficient to enjoy Thee; but I found it not until I embraced that “Mediator between God and man, the man Christ Jesus, who is over all, God blessed for ever,” calling unto me, and saying, I am the way, the truth, and the life,” and mingling that food which I was unable to receive with our flesh. For “the Word was made flesh,” that Thy wisdom, by which Thou createdst all things, might provide milk for our infancy. For I did not grasp my Lord Jesus,—I, though humbled, grasped not the humble One; nor did I know what lesson that infirmity of His would teach us. For Thy Word, the Eternal Truth, pre-eminent above the higher parts of Thy creation, raises up those that are subject unto Itself; but in this lower world built for Itself a humble habitation of our clay, whereby He intended to abase from themselves such as would be subjected and bring them over unto Himself, allaying their swelling, and fostering their love; to the end that they might go on no further in self-confidence, but rather should become weak, seeing before their feet the Divinity weak by taking our “coats of skins;” and wearied, might cast themselves down upon It, and It rising, might lift them up. (book 7, paragraph 24)

City of God

Of the man Christ Jesus, the Mediator between God and Men

But if, as is much more probable and credible, it must needs be that all men, so long as they are mortal, are also miserable, we must seek an intermediate who is not only man, but also God, that, by the interposition of His blessed mortality, He may bring men out of their mortal misery to a blessed immortality. In this intermediate two things are requisite, that He become mortal, and that He do not continue mortal. He did become mortal, not rendering the divinity of the Word infirm, but assuming the infirmity of flesh.

Neither did He continue mortal in the flesh, but raised it from the dead; for it is the very fruit of His mediation that those, for the sake of whose redemption He became the Mediator, should not abide eternally in bodily death. Wherefore it became the Mediator between us and God to have both a transient mortality and a permanent blessedness, that by that which is transient He might be assimilated to mortals, and might translate them from mortality to that which is permanent. Good angels, therefore, cannot mediate between miserable mortals and blessed immortals, for they themselves also are both blessed and immortal; but evil angels can mediate, because they are immortal like the one party, miserable like the other. To these is opposed the good Mediator, who, in opposition to their immortality and misery, has chosen to be mortal for a time, and has been able to continue blessed in eternity.

It is thus He has destroyed, by the humility of His death and the benignity of His blessedness, those proud immortals and hurtful wretches, and has prevented them from seducing to misery by their boast of immortality those men whose hearts He has cleansed by faith, and whom He has thus freed from their impure dominion.

Man, then, mortal and miserable, and far removed from the immortal and the blessed, what medium shall he choose by which he may be united to immortality and blessedness? The immortality of the demons, which might have some charm for man, is miserable; the mortality of Christ, which might offend man, exists no longer. In the one there is the fear of an eternal misery; in the other, death, which could not be eternal, can no longer be feared, and blessedness, which is eternal, must be loved. For the immortal and miserable mediator interposes himself to prevent us from passing to a blessed immortality, because that which hinders such a passage, namely, misery, continues in him; but the mortal and blessed Mediator interposed Himself, in order that, having passed through mortality, He might of mortals make immortals (showing His power to do this in His own resurrection), and from being miserable to raise them to the blessed company from the number of whom He had Himself never departed.

There is, then, a wicked mediator, who separates friends, and a good Mediator, who reconciles enemies. And those who separate are numerous, because the multitude of the blessed are blessed only by their participation in the one God; of which participation the evil angels being deprived, they are wretched, and interpose to hinder rather than to help to this blessedness, and by their very number prevent us from reaching that one beatific good, to obtain which we need not many but one Mediator, the uncreated Word of God, by whom all things were made, and in partaking of whom we are blessed.

I do not say that He is Mediator because He is the Word, for as the Word He is supremely blessed and supremely immortal, and therefore far from miserable mortals; but He is Mediator as He is man, for by His humanity He shows us that, in order to obtain that blessed and beatific good, we need not seek other mediators to lead us through the successive steps of this attainment, but that the blessed and beatific God, having Himself become a partaker of our humanity, has afforded us ready access to the participation of His divinity.

For in delivering us from our mortality and misery, He does not lead us to the immortal and blessed angels, so that we should become immortal and blessed by participating in their nature, but He leads us straight to that Trinity, by participating in which the angels themselves are blessed. Therefore, when He chose to be in the form of a servant, and lower than the angels, that He might be our Mediator, He remained higher than the angels, in the form of God,—Himself at once the way of life on earth and life itself in heaven. (Book 9, Chapter 15).

NishantXavier argument with scripture for regeneration ably demolishes the symbolic argument

NishantXavier has ably demolished the "symbolic" argument on the Debate page by the word of God alone without adding to or taking away from the simple, clear and plain meaning of the word. The original Greek text of the Bible in the New Testament establishes "regeneration" by water and the Spirit and by "the washing of regeneration" with water.
In John 3:5 Jesus says, "Unless a man be gennethe regenerated by water and the Spirit he cannot enter the kingdom of God."
Interlinear Greek text: John 3:5. Greek gennethe "be born" from γεννάω gěnnaō, procreate, regenerate, (actually) born, from γένος gĕnǒs, a generation
(Strong's numbers 1080 and 1085)
Titus 3:5 says, "he saved us, not because of deeds done by us in righteousness, but in virtue of his own mercy, by the loutrou water-washing of palingenesias regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit."
Interlinear Greek text: Titus 3:5. Greek loutrou "water-washing" from λουτρόν lǒutrǒu, a bath, baptism, washing, from λούω lǒuǒ, to bathe, wash, cleanse the whole (with water) and παλιγγενεσία paliggěnĕsia, rebirth, renovation, regeneration, from πάλιν palin, anew, back, once more, again and γένεσις genesis, nativity, generation, nature, from γενεά genea, generation
(Strong's numbers 3067 and 3068, and 3824 from 3825 and 1078 and 1074)
The text of the Bible is the actual word of God and that should be the end of the matter.
According to the word of God Himself in Proverbs 29:9 (AMP) "If a wise man has an argument with a foolish and arrogant man, the foolish man [ignores logic and fairness and] only rages or laughs, and there is no peace (rest, agreement)."
According to Proverbs 28:9 "whoever turns away from hearing the word of God, even his prayer is an abomination."
None of this is my word. It is the word of God that has been rejected by the "symbolism" argument that rejects regenerative salvation by water baptism as set out by the inerrant, inspired and infallible scriptures listed on both the Debate page and here on this page in response to the sophistry of specious arguments against regenerative baptism in favor of symbolism alone by faith alone. Even the Conservapedia article "Cafeteria Christianity" points out that in using proof texts, people whose arguments are not supported by the context of the whole of the Bible will admittedly say "yes, the Bible says that, but what it really means is..." There are abundant examples of that here, proposed as refuting proofs in rejection of the clear and simple, plain texts of God's own word that say "Baptism saves you now", and "wash away your sins" by "water and the word".
The Bible clearly warns against relying on your own understanding, and counsels to "get wisdom" (which includes honest, intelligent and reliable Greek and linguistic biblical scholarship), to avoid misunderstandings and misinterpretations which lead astray into contradictions of the Bible that misuse the Bible by setting scripture against scripture in opposition to the plain meaning of scripture; and it says very clearly that people can be led astray from their stability in the Lord by those unstable and ignorant persons who twist the scriptures to their own destruction, and will not listen to the Church.
(Proverbs 3:5; 18:2; 2 Peter 3:5-18; Acts 5:38-39; 7:51; Matthew 18:15-18; Hebrews 13:17; 2 John 2:18-19; Galatians 1:6-9).
Baptism regenerates. It is not symbolic. That is the Word of the Lord.
--Dataclarifier (talk) 12:15, 2 June 2020 (EDT)

Hahaha! "Argument with scripture!" Yes indeed, he has an "argument with scripture." You probably meant to say "argument using scripture", but now anyone can see the difference between the word of God and doctrines of men, rendering the word of God to no effect. RobSLive Free or Die 12:25, 2 June 2020 (EDT)
Dataclaifier, Your anti-scripture screeds are a bit hypocritical, where you pretend to speak with authority saying "This is the Word of God", but when pressed you always respond. "The Word of God is bull." RobSLive Free or Die 12:28, 2 June 2020 (EDT)

Dataclarifier commentary on Hebrews 11:39-40

"And all these, though well-attested by faith, did not receive what was promised, since God had foreseen something better for us, that apart from us they should not be made perfect." They had to wait until "he had made purification for sins" (Hebrews 1:3), and had ordained now Christian Baptism by the Great Commission, "Go forth and make disciples of all nations, (1) baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, (2) teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you." (Matthew 28:19-20).
Peter said, "Be baptized", and "Baptism saves you NOW", but it did not save "before" among those who had faith before Jesus was raised from the dead and before he had made purification for sins, "before" when "they did not receive what was promised". It is evident from the word of God that by faith to believe and be counted righteous "they did not receive what was promised", but desired to do the will of God with all their heart, mind, soul and strength. This is why orthodox catholic Christian doctrine teaches "baptism of desire", God having from all eternity ordained baptism for salvation by "water and the Spirit," knowing that those who desire to do His Will would have accepted baptism if they had known of its necessity and if it had been revealed to them and made available to them in their days, but it had not yet been revealed and made available before Jesus rose from the dead, and by faith they were counted righteous but they still had to wait to receive what was promised, since "Baptism saves you now" and "baptism washes away sins" and "baptism regenerates" unto everlasting life", and their desire to do all the Will of God including the implicit will to be baptized into Jesus Christ according to His Will if they had known of its necessity as effecting their baptism into him unto everlasting life.
Those who reject regenerative baptism say "baptism does not save", "baptism does not wash away sins", "baptism is not the water-washing of regeneration", and say "Jesus does not save and sanctify the church by cleansing her by the washing of water with the word, that he might present the church to himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish." Those who reject regenerative baptism look to the scriptures as their sole rule of faith, and it is they (the scriptures) that speak of regenerative baptism, as shown on the Debate page and here on the talk page as defended by NishantXavier by the word of God alone as the words of God.
Jesus said, "Why do you not understand what I say? It is because you cannot bear to hear my word. He who is of God hears the word of God; the reason why you do not hear them is that you are not of God."
--Dataclarifier (talk) 14:24, 2 June 2020 (EDT)
Oh, so Abraham did not find salvation then. So Abraham was righteous, but banned from God's presence anyway. RobSLive Free or Die 15:54, 2 June 2020 (EDT)
If anything you say is true, then how was the gospel preached to Israel in the wilderness, per Hebrew 4:2, For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them?
The author of Hebrews was speaking of God's people living in His time who didn't respond with faith to the Gospel message. The author means God's people in Moses' time didn't respond with faith to God's Law or His powerful presence. Nor did God's people respond with faith to God when the Israelite kingdom was firmly established in King David's time. VargasMilan (talk) Wednesday, 11:55, 3 June 2020 (EDT)
The author specifically says the gospel was preached to us as well as unto them - using the Greek word gospel which does not appear in the Hebrew Old Testament. Israel rejected the Gospel of faith, and was given alternatively the Law of Moses, which can only condemn. The law cannot save. RobSLive Free or Die 14:18, 3 June 2020 (EDT)
But the Law of Moses was given before the Israelites sinned in the desert. It must have been a discernment by Moses, not an actual rejection that caused the Old Law and priesthood to be administered by Moses and Aaron, which, by various foreshadowing symbolism, would point to a day where the depths of God's grace would be revealed to bring about a reconciliation between God and mankind. VargasMilan (talk) Wednesday, 15:35, 3 June 2020 (EDT)
{ec}Being that the term gospel does not appear anywhere in the Old Testament, we can only rely upon a New Testament understanding of the term gospel to interpret this verse:
For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.
A proper understanding of the term gospel in this verse alone totally destroys Dataclarifier's attack of sola fide. A proper understanding of this verse gives an understanding of Romans chapter 7 - harkening back to the Gospel of Grace spoken by God in Jeremiah 3:1:
  • Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth? 2 For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth;....6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter
As well as:
  • As free, and not using your liberty for a cloke of maliciousness, but as the servants of God.
RobSLive Free or Die 15:47, 3 June 2020 (EDT)
For the record here is Jeremiah 3:1:
  • They say, If a man put away his wife, and she go from him, and become another man's, shall he return unto her again? shall not that land be greatly polluted? but thou hast played the harlot with many lovers; yet return again to me, saith the Lord.
Comment: return again unto me - repentance and faith - no mention of baptism. Newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter; but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith. RobSLive Free or Die 16:28, 3 June 2020 (EDT)
A word on Romans 7:6 - delivered from the law = saved from judgement or saved from God's wrath - a proper understanding of salvation. See also Romans 5:9 being now justified by his blood [note: not water], we shall be saved from wrath through him. Also Galatians chapter 1: I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of seqq. RobSLive Free or Die 16:40, 3 June 2020 (EDT)
  • Jeremiah 3:1: return again to me, saith the Lord
  • Galatians 1:6: called you into the grace of Christ
RobSLive Free or Die 19:48, 3 June 2020 (EDT)

Dataclarifier: Your only possible response, besides ignoring this question (again) I asked 6 months ago, is to deny (again) the authority of the Bible. RobSLive Free or Die 15:59, 2 June 2020 (EDT)
Bottomline: Your gospel is all about a supposed Great Commission, and nothing about salvation, grace, mercy and truth. Show me where Israel was commanded to "go forth baptizing" in the wilderness. RobSLive Free or Die 16:02, 2 June 2020 (EDT)
The "good news" was preached to them of the One to Come, but they still had to wait for salvation, because "they did not receive what was promised." As for your comment about "a supposed Great Commission" see the Conservapedia article Great Commission which cites Matthew 28:19-20 as the word of Jesus Himself sending them forth to baptize and teach, the commandment of the Lord traditionally called "the Great Commission" by all of Christianity. --Dataclarifier (talk) 10:11, 3 June 2020 (EDT)
You're being redundant again. I know full well what you mean by Great Commission. You haven't answered a specific question: Where was Israel commanded to "go forth baptizing"? RobSLive Free or Die 14:18, 3 June 2020 (EDT)
Whatever happened to "we're putting the cart before the horse"? We could have at the very least picked out the Bible verse/verses that expressed what we had in mind the best. VargasMilan (talk) Wednesday, 12:02, 3 June 2020 (EDT)
This gospel based on Matthew 28:19-20 assumes that a person baptized at birth is saved and can ignore the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith; it assumes they can ignore the self-reflection James speaks of that comes from bible study. Like the Jews in John chapter 8, they believe they have inherited God's promises at birth. This doctrine claims that "going forth baptizing" is fulfilling God's commands without the need for self-reflection, repentance, faith, and establishing a personal relationship with God. It is putting the cart before the horse - preaching salvation, which they do not understand, without being saved yourself. RobSLive Free or Die 14:18, 3 June 2020 (EDT)
This doctrine of "regenerative baptism" or "regenerative water baptism" can only condemn. It cannot save. Like the Law of Moses, it ignores faith (as Hebrews 4:2 explains the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith). RobSLive Free or Die 14:56, 3 June 2020 (EDT)
Baptism isn't just a rite, it's an event in the life of the Gospel community that brings about unity and helps hold it together. Isn't that a kind of regeneration? If so, can it not be relied on to build up faith? VargasMilan (talk) Wednesday, 17:30, 3 June 2020 (EDT)
Sure. But it's not necessary for salvation, per Romans 10:9-10. RobSLive Free or Die 17:39, 3 June 2020 (EDT)
But what are we saved into? Grace, surely, but on earth, also a place where we preserve and secure what God achieved. VargasMilan (talk) Wednesday, 17:54, 3 June 2020 (EDT)
That's another subject, too big to go into here. Salvation is from judgement; Christian believers do not face an afterlife judgement. This doctrine, as many other errant doctrines also teach, is that salvation only refers to being saved from condemnation in an afterlife. It doesn't. But that's a much larger issue that should be dealt with on the Salvation page.
First things first: you cannot preach salvation, "going forth baptizing" if you yourself (a) do not know what salvation is, and (b) you yourself are not saved from judgement. To say salvation only applies to an afterlife is to call God a liar; if any man sin. we have an Advocate with the Father. We are a new creature. The old man is crucified. And we walk in newness of life. RobSLive Free or Die 19:35, 3 June 2020 (EDT)

Christian witness to regenerative baptism through history

In addition to the texts cited and quoted from the Bible itself on the Debate page and by NishantXavier here on this talk page, Regenerative Baptism has been the consistently constant doctrine of Christianity throughout history, as seen in the doctrinal history of most of the major Christian denominations to the present day, including Catholics, Eastern and Oriental Orthodox, and among Protestants, several denominations: Anglicans, Lutherans, Presbyterians, Congregationalists and other Reformed denominations, Methodists and some Nazarenes, the Moravian Church, and the Churches of Christ. The scriptures have been consistently interpreted as infallibly teaching the regenerative power of water baptism into the blood of Christ Jesus by the Holy Spirit since the time of the apostles through the handing on of the Apostolic tradition by Apostolic succession, in the teaching of the Pentarchy of the ancient orthodox catholic Church of the patriarchs, the teaching of the popes, and of the leaders of the Protestant Reformation, Martin Luther, John Calvin, Ulrich Zwingli, Jacob Arminius, the Thirty-Nine Articles of Religion of the Church of England, the doctrine of John and Charles Wesley. It was not until the rise of the Anabaptist movement and the beginnings of the Baptist churches in the seventeenth century that the novel doctrine that baptism is symbolic only was declared to be the truth against the traditional teaching of the Catholic and Orthodox and Protestant Churches, and was universally condemned as a heresy that had never been proposed before that time. It had been consistently proposed before them by the neo-gnostic Bogomils and other non-Christian groups, but not by Christianity. The entire testimony of the doctrinal history of the witness of Christianity for all of the 1600 years since the time of the apostles through the 16th and 17th century development of the Protestant Reformation also stands against symbolic baptism and for regenerative baptism. --Dataclarifier (talk) 10:11, 3 June 2020 (EDT)
I can even show you twenty instances where Moses preached the foreshadowing of the requirement of water baptism by type
[2] [3] [4] [5] [6] [7] [8] [9] [10] [11] [12] [13] [14] [15]
[16] [17] [18] [19] [20] [21]
--Dataclarifier (talk) 10:30, 3 June 2020 (EDT)

WARNING: There are only 13 of the above 21 spam links above cited to Moses. Do Not Spam This Discussion. RobSLive Free or Die 21:20, 3 June 2020 (EDT)

Actually there are 22 instances of cleansing and sanctifying mentioned by Moses (author of the books of Moses) in the above links in word and narrative including the examples of the purifying and sanctifying blood together with the water:
[2] 2 mentions (v.18, vv.20-21) = 2 instances
[3] + 1 mention = 3 instances
[4] + 1 mention = 4 instances
[5] + 1 mention = 5 instances
[6] + 1 mention = 6 instances
[7] + 1 mention = 7 instances
[8] + 1 mention = 8 instances
[9] + 2 mentions (v.4 and v.21) = 10 instances
[10] + 3 mentions (v.7, vv.11-12, vv.30-31) = 13 instances
[11] + 3 mentions (v.6, vv.23-24, v.30) = 16 instances
[12] + 6 mentions (vv.5-6, v.8, v.9, v.25, v.47, vv.50-51) = 22 instances.
--Dataclarifier (talk) 14:31, 4 June 2020 (EDT)
Big deal. You are preaching Law, and not Grace. Condemnation, and not Salvation. I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: Which is not another; RobSLive Free or Die 15:05, 4 June 2020 (EDT)

"Consistently constant". Well God has been consistently constant, too. Only God is not consistently constant in error. RobSLive Free or Die 14:31, 3 June 2020 (EDT)
See, here's the difference: I'm speaking the word of God; you're arguing church doctrine, church history, and not preaching the word of God. RobSLive Free or Die 14:33, 3 June 2020 (EDT)
And like Israel in the wilderness, the church has consistently failed to live up to God's expectations. Only individuals find salvation, not whole churches. Salvation is a personal choice made by you after hearing the gospel of God's grace, mixed with faith. Being a member of God's family is not a decision made by your parents to have you circumcized or baptized at birth. RobSLive Free or Die 15:15, 3 June 2020 (EDT)
My advice to Dataclarifier: If you cannot answer the simple question what those three words, as well as mean in Hebrews 4:2, (a) admit "I don't know", at least to yourself, and (b) follow the prescription in James 1:5, If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. This is a guarantee, a promise. And if God doesn't honor his promise of giving you wisdom to understand Hebrews 4:2, then ask yourself why God does not hear your prayer.
I am available for discussion if God refuses to honor his promise to you in James 1:5, and grant you wisdom to understand Hebrews 4:2. RobSLive Free or Die 01:27, 4 June 2020 (EDT)
Again, no response to a simple question, rather more redundant spam in the ==Off topic discussion==, where it aptly belongs. RobSLive Free or Die 12:57, 4 June 2020 (EDT)

Off topic discussion

Seeing the length of this debate talk page, there are two things I should mention. First, TL;DR. Second, it reminds me, what about the 90/10 rule? For me, it seems that some users currently tend to talk too much without adding much content to content pages. --LiberaltearsJust say no to quid pro joe! | Free Roger Stone! 16:45, 3 June 2020 (EDT)

This will help us decide what goes into the "Baptism" entry and the "Jesus Christ" entry. VargasMilan (talk) Wednesday, 17:41, 3 June 2020 (EDT)
Ah, I see. By the way Vargas, I noticed in your contributions page that most of your edits are on talk pages. Correct me if I'm wrong, but is it not a violation of the 90/10 rule? --LiberaltearsJust say no to quid pro joe! | Free Roger Stone! 18:22, 3 June 2020 (EDT)
Vargas, make some edits on those pages and come back here. RobSLive Free or Die 19:26, 3 June 2020 (EDT)
Liberal tears, are you out to get me? I ask that because the talk-page rule is almost obsolete and was ABOUT prolonging talk page disputes. But for some reason, all mainspace liberals except SamHB have left. So there are no disputes with anyone anymore except SamHB and the isolated troll. In an admin letter one of the Admins called me a "good asset" on Talk:Main Page. But these are just principles. What happens in reality is that people migrate their activity to talk pages, and then dig their claws in, cut and run, and then brag about how badly they hypnotized the Admins. So I'm not going to stand on principles, even though I could, and instead of Talk:Main Page I will work on standardizing citations for a while. Happy? VargasMilan (talk) Wednesday, 20:00, 3 June 2020 (EDT)
Discussion among editors is how we arrive at the Best of the Public. 90/10 should be revised to at least 80/20. 90/10 sometimes only encourages edit warring in mainspace. RobSLive Free or Die 20:06, 3 June 2020 (EDT)
No Vargas, I'm not out to get you. Besides, PeterKa has also spent the majority of edits on talk pages for the last month (see here). I just noticed that you (and maybe a few other editors) have been granted SkipCatcha+ tags (like edit and Block), but don't always fully utilize them. And that's not to mention that you were given tags of edit, Block, and rollback before reaching 3,000 edits (see here and here), where I currently have made over 3,000 edits (around 2,500 if only edits on content pages count) though I still only have a SkipCaptcha tag. I often hope for a promotion, because I'm currently working on a ton of pages related to the 2020 congressional elections, and an edit tag might mean more time allotted for more edits. In addition, with this long list of topics for image upload requests where the requested image uploads in CP:IUR take a long time, I also wish that I had an Upload tag such that I could at least upload public domain and Creative Commons images. And once in a while, I spot vandalism before any other editors gets to it, so maybe a Block tag could be useful as well. --LiberaltearsJust say no to quid pro joe! | Free Roger Stone! 20:30, 3 June 2020 (EDT)
Do you think trash-talking an editor in good standing is the way to go about promoting your accomplishments? RobSLive Free or Die 20:43, 3 June 2020 (EDT)
I'm not trying to trash-talk VargasMilan, and I apologize if I'm going too far. If I have any more time tonight for CP editing, I'll probably just focus on the 2020 U.S. House elections. --LiberaltearsJust say no to quid pro joe! | Free Roger Stone! 20:49, 3 June 2020 (EDT)

Dataclarifier misquotes and misuses scripture again

(For the record, the above heading was added after my commentary below was posted, and the inserted comments by RobSmith were also added, breaking up the train of thought. I had restored the commentary intact, and removed to a position below both the portions disrupted and the comments by RobSmith against them. Immediately afterward RobSmith placed a block, temporarily preventing my ability to edit, reason given "Vandalism". See Diff--Dataclarifier (talk) 16:26, 4 June 2020 (EDT))
Regarding the Debate:
"Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God." Romans 10:17.
The Gospel was preached, but it does no good to only hear it: "For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it." Hebrews 4:2. Abraham was declared righteous because he had faith and believed, and so were the others, but they did not receive the promise:
"For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory, but not before God. For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness." Romans 4:2-3. Abraham is included in Hebrews chapter 11. "And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise" Hebrews 11:39.
Comment: The promise of spirit without measure. See also Hebrews 11:33 - Who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises. Under the New Covenant we can have the spirit without measure. RobSLive Free or Die 16:12, 4 June 2020 (EDT)
Faith without works of righteousness is of no avail, either. "Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith alone." James 2:19-24.
Comment: Off topic reference to something other than water baptism. In fact, it is used here to convert the Gospel of Grace into a gospel of condemnation. RobSLive Free or Die 14:04, 4 June 2020 (EDT)
Being declared righteous by faith and being justified by faith with works does not work salvation: "Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Which he shed on us (poured out on us) abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life."
Comment: No mention of water baptism (John's baptism). In fact it specifically speaks of Holy Spirit baptism (Jesus's baptism). RobSLive Free or Die 14:04, 4 June 2020 (EDT)
Faith alone does not save, even when it is reckoned as righteousness (for they did not receive the promise), and righteousness does not save even when joined to works that justify (not by belief and works of righteousness), so that being righteous by faith and justified by works of faith does not save us, but according to the mercy of God we are saved "by the water-washing of regeneration". It has been objected that baptism is salvation by a work of man. But baptism is not a work of man but a merciful work of God which God does, not man. For "Except a man be born (regenerated gennethe γεννεθή) of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."
We are washed in the blood of Christ Jesus in the pure water of baptism by which we are sanctified by God the Father:
"Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood" Revelation 1:5.
"These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb." Revelation 7:14.

Comment: Blood, not water. You are misquoting and misusing scripture. Secondly, since you claim "God uses matter and material means as vehicles of His Grace and Salvation," explain how washing your robes in blood makes them white. RobSLive Free or Die 13:39, 4 June 2020 (EDT)
Baptism washes us in the blood of Christ, and baptism by water and the Spirit is referenced in the comment of Paul to Titus, "but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration" and the Greek here for "washing" is by water, and that is baptism by water and the Spirit which regenerates gennethe John 3:5. That is how our robes are washed in the blood of the Lamb. Moreover Revelation 19:8 clearly says that the clean linen dress of the saints is righteous deeds, because they have "washed their robes" Revelation 22:14. --Dataclarifier (talk) 16:26, 4 June 2020 (EDT)
So they are not washed with water. Ok, thanks. A rather round about way to make a point totally irrelevant to the subject of water baptism. RobSLive Free or Die 17:09, 4 June 2020 (EDT)

"Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water." Hebrews 10:22.
"but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God." 1 Corinthians 6:11.
The Bible says, "baptism doth also now save us" 1 Peter 3:21—but others say, "baptism does not save us".
The Bible says, "be baptized, and wash away your sins" Acts 22:16—but others say, "baptism does not wash away sins".
The Bible says, "Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word" Ephesians 5:25-26—but others say, "Christ does not sanctify and cleanse by the washing of water with the word, but only by faith alone."
The Debate page offers proofs: we are baptized into Jesus, those who are baptized are clothed with Christ and His righteousness, baptism saves, washes away sins, regenerates—but others say baptism does none of these things but is a symbol only of the faith alone which saves, the faith which did not give what was promised to those who had faith and believed and were counted righteous and did works that justified them.
Which are you going to believe? The Bible, or those others? The choice is yours. I have no more to say on the matter. Do not expect further comment from me on what is clearly the doctrine of the word of God, that baptism regenerates and is not symbolic. --Dataclarifier (talk) 10:12, 4 June 2020 (EDT)
Can't answer a simple question, What does as well as translate into in simple English? RobSLive Free or Die 13:00, 4 June 2020 (EDT)
  • they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.
Comment: Unsaved humanity may indulge your misuse of scripture, but according to Jesus, God doesn't hear your prayers. What an example to set. RobSLive Free or Die 13:39, 4 June 2020 (EDT)

DataClarifier's Excellent References further show how Holy Baptism was prefigured in the OT

DataClarifier, thanks for the detailed and superb references. And apologies that I have not been paying attention to this site for a while. It really is very clear in both OT prefigurements and in the NT fulfilment. Baptism saves, Baptism regenerates, Baptism justifies. The adult convert who comes to be baptized is required to believe in Christ. Thus, by grace through faith, in Water Baptism, sins are remitted and washed away, and he is saved.

For Protestants who still contest this Truth, I'm not sure what else can be said. It is most certain. And just preach it if you dare, and you'll see the good fruits. God has given to His Church great treasuries of Grace in the Sacraments. He mentioned Baptism in Jn 3 and Communion in Jn 6. He said we must be Baptized of Water and of the Holy Spirit to enter the Kingdom of God. When He was Baptized, the Holy Spirit descended on Him. That signifies what happens to the baptized believer in Christ. Because of the Power of the Holy Baptism, and the Grace of God through faith in Our Lord Jesus Christ, the person becomes born again in Water Baptism. Thus, the Bible says times without number, the Baptized have put on Christ, the Baptized are children of God by faith in Christ Jesus, Baptism now saves you, Baptism sanctifies the Church, the washing of water and the word regenerates, the washing of regeneration saves us etc. Evangelicals unfortunately lack the other Sacraments, since a Bishop is needed for Chrismation/Confirmation (the laying on of hands by the Apostles in Acts), and a Priest is needed for Holy Communion/Holy Ordination. But if you preach that Baptism saves, you will see more non-Christians come to Christ. I've seen it and it works. But if you don't want to, so be it. We'll agree to disagree. We will preach it NishantXavierFor Christ the King 13:08, 5 June 2020 (EDT)

Where was the gospel of Matthew 28:19, Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing given to Israel in the wilderness, per Hebrews 4:2, for unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them? And please keep your answer simple, straight forward. and without convoluted reasoning. Preferably, cite chapter and verses from Israel in the wilderness (anywhere from Exodus ch 14 onward, all of Leviticus, Numbers, or Deuteronomy). You can't, cause it's not there. So obviously the gospel you preach based upon Matthew 28:18-20 is not the same gospel that was preached to us as well as unto them [Israel in the wilderness]. RobSLive Free or Die 13:40, 5 June 2020 (EDT)
Peter says:
  • be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear.
I've asked Dataclarifier what Hebrews 4:2 means for 7 months and, and the only answer he gives is that if I don't accept the Great Commission, I'm going to hell. That's not what I'd call meekness and fear, nor being ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you. So it appears he uses Peter somewhat selectively, as well. RobSLive Free or Die 16:03, 5 June 2020 (EDT)

NishantXavierFor Christ the King Baptism was prefigured in many ways. Even the flood of Noah prefigures that man will be saved by passing through water. The Exodus through the red sea also prefigures it, for it shows the people of Israel were saved by passing through water from the Egyptians. The leprosy of Naaman spiritually signifies it, for it was washed away in water, as sin, which is spiritual leprosy, was washed away in Baptism. We've shown you like 10 New Testament passages which plainly teach that Baptism remits sins, washes away sin, spiritually regenerates, justifies, sanctifies, cleanses etc which you've not even touched. It is you who are in ultimate disagreement with the New Testament, unfortunately. We know what we believe and why we believe it. NishantXavierFor Christ the King 17:26, 11 June 2020 (EDT)

But Christ's death isn't a blank check for all. How do we lay hold of this salvation? As many as received him, gave he power to become sons of God. How do we lay hold of this power to become sons of God? RobSLive Free or Die 11:41, 15 June 2020 (EDT)

If Baptism is not just symbolic, maybe Holy Communion isn't just symbolic either. A key issue

Anabaptists or Baptists first invented a religion practically without Sacraments. Sacraments are visible channels of the invisible Grace of God. They are not just bare and empty symbols as later Protestantism made them out to be. As Baptism truly cleanses from sin, Holy Communion gives Eternal Life.

Jn 6:53 "Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink His blood, ye have no life in you. 54 Whoso eateth My flesh, and drinketh My blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. 55 For My flesh is meat indeed, and My blood is drink indeed.

56 He that eateth My flesh, and drinketh My blood, dwelleth in Me, and I in him. 57 As the living Father hath sent Me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth Me, even he shall live by Me. 58 This is that Bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this Bread shall live for ever."

The (Ana)Baptist error is that Baptism and Communion are just symbols. John 3 and John 6 show that is wrong.

Question: Exodus prescribes for where, when, and how much for the Passover ritual; where in the New Testament is a prescription laid out that confession and communion must occur every time a person sins?
Let me cut to the quick: what is eternal life? There is a teaching that eternal life is dependent upon washing of pots, etc. God promises eternal life through Jesus Christ; there is a teaching that eternal life is dependent upon the washing of pots and not the blood of Christ. RobSLive Free or Die 11:26, 15 June 2020 (EDT)