Talk:Examples of Bias in Wikipedia

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#1

Again, this isn't bias. If it had been an FA, that would have been one thing, but GA is not quite the same level of recognition. This list is getting more and more ludicrous. --Liπus the Turbogeek^{(contact me)} 21:00, 8 April 2007 (EDT)

Don't follow you here, Linus the Turbogeek. But can I call on you if I have technical computer questions? :-) A good Easter to you.--Aschlafly 21:48, 8 April 2007 (EDT)

Um… you can't call me, but feel free to send me e-mail. A happy Easter to yourself as well. --Liπus the Turbogeek^{(contact me)} 20:04, 10 April 2007 (EDT)

Liberal bias

The list contains still the statement that "Wikipedia is six times more liberal than the American public", which still makes every statistician frown at conservapedia as soon as he looks where we get the data for Wikipedia from. A self-selected sample, with 131 categories, from which respondents can choose as many as they like, is compared to a Harris poll.

The other innovation of this example of Wikipedia bias is the definition of liberal bias; it now even has its own article as Liberal Quotient. This article will make every mathematician frown, and it demonstrates that LQ is highly confusing. The article defines the LQ as Liberals/Conservatives, which has its own problems, but the illustrative part is that the article does not even once uses the definition of LQ correctly. None of the LQs mentioned in the article for particular groups, such as journalists, uses LQ correctly. It was never correct since it was created by Aschlafly. And if you look at the talk page you'll notice that most editors aren't able to apply the definition correctly either.

My suggestions would be 1) get a solid data base, since it it obviously a violation of good practice in statistics. 2) use a definition of liberal bias that people understand, now that it has been demonstrated, that the current definition is poorly understood. Order 9 April, 18:40 (AEST)

In addition, 3:1/1:2≠6. --Liπus the Turbogeek^{(contact me)} 20:07, 10 April 2007 (EDT)

Actually 3/(1/2) is 6. This is the correct part of it. You proabably mean 75%/33%? That is indeed something different and 225%. This just illustrates that the Liberal quotient is plain confusing. Order 11 April, 11:00 (AEST)

The Deluge criticism

As a Christian I can understand the criticism in which the Great Flood is treated as a piece of myth, or if you go to the Great Flood it will take you to the Deluge section: but what you have to realise is that the Great Flood can be seen in nearly all mythologies, for example, Dylan in Welsh and Atlantis in Greek. Therefore, the Noah account is part of wider scope, yet, it can be said that the Great Flood in all cultures could be the account of the same flood that Noah escaped in. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by James M Hayes (talk)

James, have you seen Conservapedia's article on the Great Flood? It covers the sorts of things you talk about, without using the word "myth" (or any derivative) at all (except in the external links). Philip J. Rayment 12:03, 16 April 2007 (EDT)

Hmmm...

"Wikipedia removed and permanently blocked a page identifying its many biases." OK, but this page cannot be edited. Isn't that just as bad? Sterile 16:16, 9 April 2007 (EDT)

Nooooo. this is entirely different in a way, I'm unable to explain to you. --Cgday 16:17, 9 April 2007 (EDT)

A page that has been removed cannot be read, this one can. That's a pretty obvious difference, I would think, and one that I had no difficulty explaining. Philip J. Rayment 22:30, 9 April 2007 (EDT)

Wasn't Conservapedia's Examples of Bias in Conservapedia removed as well? Myk 23:37, 9 April 2007 (EDT)

Hmmm, yes there was such an article that was deleted. But it was removed on the grounds that it was a rant with obscenities. Philip J. Rayment 01:20, 10 April 2007 (EDT)

And then deleted and then protected against further re-creation? Myk 01:40, 10 April 2007 (EDT)

It was created and deleted twice (with the second version apparently being a copy of the first version), so presumably it was thought prudent to prevent the same thing being done over and over. Philip J. Rayment 01:49, 10 April 2007 (EDT)

Myk, we allow a great deal of criticism of our site here, far more than Wikipedia allows. I was not involved in the deletion of that particular entry but over time, as this site becomes more stable and secure against vandalism, that page can be reopened just as others have been.--Aschlafly 02:09, 10 April 2007 (EDT)

Wikipedia allows unlimited criticism. It contains an article about Conservapedia that includes many of Conservapedia's criticisms of wikipedia. It even has a 106-source article entitled "Criticism of Wikipedia" that Wikipedia users wrote themselves. I criticized this article on this talk page, and my comment (along with many others) was deleted. If you aren't a liar, Aschlafly, then you are breathtakingly delusional. It would have been just as easy to remove the obscenities then protect the article.--Mechrobioticon 23:43, 29 April 2007 (EDT)

The "Criticism of Wikipedia" entry is a self-serving joke that censors any real criticism. I put in factual statements of bias in the Wikipedia and my factual, respectful statements were distorted and then censored.--Aschlafly 00:57, 30 April 2007 (EDT)

How many sources does this page cite? It would appear wikipedia is more exhaustive in criticizing themselves than Conservapedia is at criticizing Wikipedia.--Mechrobioticon 00:20, 29 April 2007 (EDT)

Wow, is that the test you're proposing? Simply count the number of citations, no matter what they say? That does seem consistent with Wikipedia's philosophy. As shown by the content page here, Wikipedia makes a factual claim and then provides a citation that actually fails to support the claim at all.--Aschlafly 01:43, 30 April 2007 (EDT)

Which has sometimes occurred at Conservapedia as well, of course... Dpbsmith 16:47, 30 April 2007 (EDT)

Hasn't that logic been used before on CP? The Theory of Evolution article is touted as being the best because it gets so many hits and has so many citations, but if you took a second to read the talk page you'd see otherwise. I don't know what "factual" statements Andy added, but if they're anything like the bias listed here, of course they were removed since they don't meet the mainstream definition of bias. Jrssr5 16:10, 30 April 2007 (EDT)

I'm a specialist in analyzing and remedying bias. Please bring any examples to my attention. --Ed Poor 12:34, 16 April 2007 (EDT)

"Wikipedia is six times as liberal"

Isn't it time to do something about this? Whether or not the numbers are correct isn't for me to say, but if there are twice as many conservatives as liberals in the US, but three times as many liberals as conservatives on Wikipedia, then there must be about 2.27 times as many liberals on Wiki as in the US, not 6. The statement as it stands suggests that we don't know basic math, and I for one find that slightly embarrassing. --AKjeldsen 12:00, 26 April 2007 (EDT)

Quiet you fool! Don't you realize that if you argue with ASchlafly's math that it means you're wrong about everything? If he says that the Wikipedia is 108% liberal then it must be so!--Rex Mundane 15:26, 26 April 2007 (EDT)

It's approx. 2.25, and that's not how "liberal bias" is defined. Stop being an idiot, Aschlafly. --Hacker^{(Write some code • Support my RfA)} 20:29, 26 April 2007 (EDT)

You can think about it this way. If your data is correct, then if you were to walk down the street and grab 6 people, statistically you should get 2 liberals and 4 conservatives. At wikipedia, you should get 1.5 conservatives (statistically speaking) and 4.5 liberals. 1.5 times 3 equals 4.5, and 1.5 plus 4.5 equals 6. Divide 4.5 by 2, and you get 2.25. And Hacker's right, "bias" refers to the articles themselves, not to who wrote them. Being mostly composed of liberals is not an example of bias.--Mechrobioticon 00:06, 30 April 2007 (EDT)

Oh, I'm going to be really really really sorry I ever mentioned this, but you can also think of it this way.

Accept for argument Andrew Schlafly's assumptions—(which I most bodaciously do not accept)—that America is conservative, 2:1 and that Wikipedia is liberal, 3:1. Now, imagine conservatives at Wikipedia encircled by and trying to fight off liberals, and ask: for every pair of conservatives, how many liberals on average must they vanquish in order to prevail? The answer is every pair of conservatives needs to subdue six liberals. Now ask the same question for America. Here, the answer is that every pair of conservatives only needs to dispatch one liberal. Ergo, at Wikipedia the conservatives would need to work six times as hard. QED. Dpbsmith 11:38, 1 May 2007 (EDT)

I can't read Andy's mind, but I doubt that is how he arrived at his magic number of 6. Creative thinking though!! Jrssr5 16:21, 1 May 2007 (EDT)

#47

Wikipedia's errors spill undetected into newspapers. A Wikipedia entry falsely stated that Rutgers was once invited to join the Ivy League. Although that false statement was eventually removed from Wikipedia, it was not removed before the Daily News relied on it in [a] story

What does this have to do with any bias on the part of Wikipedia, and more to the point, in what way is any such bias shown, in this case, liberal? --Olly 05:52, 30 April 2007 (EDT)

Newspapers are known to have a liberal bias also, and hence the copying from the liberal Wikipedia is noteworthy.--Aschlafly 16:54, 30 April 2007 (EDT)

Um, no. Some newspapers lean left, but there are plenty of newspapers that endorse a conservative position. Quite a few (if not most) of the papers in my area are pretty conservative actually. ColinR^talk 16:59, 30 April 2007 (EDT)

What does any liberal bias in the written press (LOL) have to do with whether Wikipedia has a liberal bias or not? Number 47 simply is not an example of bias in wikipedia. You may think it's "noteworthy" but so what? It's listed as an example of bias in Wikipedia. I think that counts as deceit.--Olly 09:59, 1 May 2007 (EDT)

#41

That shouldn't be there, surely, as it is simply someone saying Wikipedia is biased, rather than an actual example of bias. --Protocletos 14:41, 30 April 2007 (EDT)

It quotes an insightful remark by an authority. That's what good encyclopedias do.--Aschlafly 16:54, 30 April 2007 (EDT)

I don't dispute this, but the fact remains that it's not actually an example of bias. --Protocletos 11:29, 1 May 2007 (EDT)

What the heck…?

I'm sorry about this, and I'll get to work on MediaWiki and stay out of trouble for a while after I have my say, but how is criticism of articles without a worldwide viewpoint a "bias"? Wikipedia is a worldwide project, and yes, America is not the only English-speaking country around, so it can't claim ownership of even the English edition. --Liπus the Turbohacker^{(contact me)} 13:09, 12 May 2007 (EDT)

I think the criticism means that Wikipedia places an excessive emphasize on the "worldwide viewpoint", often to the exclusion of US views such as conservatism. It's one thing to say what everyone in the world thinks, another to try to homogenize it into one "consensus" view. (See pluralism vs. particularism - or until those are written, multiculturalism.) --Ed Poor 13:20, 12 May 2007 (EDT)

Suggested edit

Could globalist be linked to Globalism. Has that anything to do with Globalization? Auld Nick 13:16, 12 May 2007 (EDT)

Link added. Thanks and Godspeed to you.--Aschlafly 14:42, 13 May 2007 (EDT)

Misunderstanding of Wikipedia rules

It saddens me to see that people feel that it is OK to criticize a project that they have not even read most of the rules of. Yes, Wikipedia says that it is a free encyclopedia that anybody can edit, and is NPOV. Of course it is not NPOV yet, but someday could be. Most of these criticisms (well over 70%) are based on ignorance of Wikipedia rules. There are 42 policies and guidelines on Wikipedia, and I doubt most people who are writing these criticisms have bothered to read any of those, except for the introduction. And the unbelievable hypocrisy of deleting and protecting a page called Examples of Bias in Conservapedia is sickening. So yes, if anybody was to go and read the policies and guidelines of Wikipedia, they will see that these criticisms are completely unfounded (well, most of 'em). --Hojimachong^talk 14:01, 13 May 2007 (EDT)

Hoji, the criticisms are based on the results, and the Wikipedia rules really have very little to do with this. The rules themselves encourage bias (e.g., "NPOV" towards terrorists) or the rules may be applied against conservative edits (e.g., initially against the entry on Conservapedia). And then there are the criticisms about the rules don't say, such as the Wikipedia rules do not prohibit obscenity, gossip, or pretending liberal opinion is fact.

A study of bias doesn't really care what the rules or cause is. The study is about the results. But thanks for your comments and Lord bless you for your efforts on Wikipedia and here.--Aschlafly 14:30, 13 May 2007 (EDT)

And, ignorance is bliss ... it's much easier to blindly criticize something instead of trying to study/investigate the reasons. Jrssr5 15:04, 13 May 2007 (EDT)

Apparently not easy enough, as some people (including Jimmy Wales himself) still pretend that Wikipedia does not have bias.--Aschlafly 15:26, 13 May 2007 (EDT)

Time for my response (sigh); First of all, Jimmy Wales admits that it has a bias; he would be ignorant not to. But it is obvious that articles are much better now than they were a year or two ago. It's clear that great strides have been made towards not having a noticeable bias. And you say criticism is based on results? The stated goals of a project dictate what will be considered "good" and "bad", and most of the criticisms here are empty in their factual backing. Also, the "NPOV" towards terrorists is more neutral than calling them just "terrorists", no? Groups such as Hamas, Hezbollah, LTTE, etc. aren't usually referred to as "terrorist", because they are seen as legitimate freedom fighters by huge chunks of the Arabic and Western world.

Groups like al-Qaeda are still described as terrorist organizations in the introduction, since a larger group of legitimate sources consider them to be terrorists.

And "pretending liberal opinion is fact"; Liberal opinion is rarely represented as fact, but liberal reports with factual backing is reported with more legitimacy. That's what the WP:RS guideline exists, to make sure reliable sources are used. I think you mean liberal pontification on facts represented as facts; that's what WP:CSB is trying to fix. And may I refer you to look at our very own Theory of evolution article, where there are 14 blockquotes from sources who have very little authority to be talking about evolution. Let us remember that 99.84% of scientists support the evolutionary theory. How are those 14 blockquotes, along with many, many, many AiG references not "conservative opinion is fact"? --Hojimachong^talk 16:23, 13 May 2007 (EDT)

What study? User:Order May 14.

Jewish encyclopedia

There's no need for scare quotes around the Jewish encyclopedia, it just looks like we're either ignorant or accusing Wikipedia of being anti-semitic. The Jewish encyclopedia is a real work, and often cited for things relating to Judaism. link to the Jewish encyclopedia. RDre 12:17, 15 May 2007 (EDT)