Talk:Vestigial structures

Article deletion by user:Conservative in 3....2...1.... --Gulik2 14:26, 10 May 2007 (EDT)

Get a lot of citations, and quick. He can't delete an article with 15 citations. --Hojimachong^talk 14:26, 10 May 2007 (EDT)

Lol:) This should be under developmental Biology and Evolution Categories. Go to pubmed and you can find plenty of articles that deal with this topic, hard evidence.--TimS 14:40, 10 May 2007 (EDT)

I just made the article sound a little more encyclopedic and added a reference. GodWarrior 16:23, 23 May 2007 (EDT)

Overall the changes are good, but the removal of the point on natural selection is puzzling. Learn together 18:14, 23 May 2007 (EDT)

Sorry, I just felt it wasn't very encyclopedic the way it was worded especially the part in the form of the question. Also, it seems consistent with the Natural Selection that vestigial structures could be "in the process" of being phased out. GodWarrior 18:26, 23 May 2007 (EDT)

Part of the 'two-edged sword' of natural selection is that it should weed out inefficiencies as an outgoing occurrence and if it's not doing so, then they aren't inefficiencies. Giving it an open ended "in the process" can be fine if we're talking about short time periods on an evolutionary scale, but when we're talking about tens of millions of years then there is a benefit or a neutrality to the structure that by definition says it is not useless. Learn together 19:45, 23 May 2007 (EDT)

If the structure is neutral from the point of reproductive and general fitness, then there is no selective pressure for it to be eliminated and it could potentially persist until random mutations eliminate or change it. GodWarrior 21:06, 23 May 2007 (EDT)

Structures with any meaningful size to them are never neutral if they perform no positive function. The body has to use resources to sustain them as part of the overall living organism. Learn together 22:31, 24 May 2007 (EDT)

That is true. However, many vestigial structures are greatly reduced in size such as the coccyx and appendix such that their impact on resource usage is negligible in comparison to other factors, even random ones. This makes their impact on reproductive fitness essentially neutral. Consider the appendix, a thin piece of tissue about four inches long, the resources that go in to creating and maintaining such a structure are not likely to have any effect on the number of successful matings a person has. Also consider that the genes responsible for making a vestigial structure may be closely linked genetically (or even share some of the same genes) with the genes that are responsible for making other structures that are still required in humans. This could make it very difficult to remove the genes responsible for the vestigial structure without disturbing those that are still needed. GodWarrior 09:50, 25 May 2007 (EDT)

If it takes energy and there is a gain in efficiency to be had by its removal, then that should occur unless perhaps the structure is microscopic in size. Based upon your assertion that it should have no affect, then there would likewise be no reason for vestigial structures to become smaller in size, and yet evolutionary theory says that is exactly what has occurred. I should probably also point out that the article as written misses much of current evolutionary thought. While initial beliefs by evolutionists mirrored more of the idea that vestigial structures were useless, that line of thought caused evolutionists to get egg on their face and it is now generally accepted that vestigial structures can provided secondary or alternative positive influences that benefit the species. Vestigial structures are now viewed as those that have lost their original purpose, but without any claim being made to their uselessness. Learn together 03:13, 28 May 2007 (EDT)

I think Learn together makes a good point about the resources required, and the response to that just goes to show how flexible evolution is: if evolution gets rid of something, it is because it was a disadvantage, but if it doesn't get rid of something, it must be because it wasn't that much of a disadvantage. It's a tautology, really (how do you know if it was a disadvantage? By whether or not evolution got rid if it), and by being so flexible that it explains everything, it really explains nothing, but is a "just-so" story. Philip J. Rayment 08:00, 28 May 2007 (EDT)

It is not that natural selection won't ever get rid of things that don't provide an advantage, it's just that it might take a while. You can't expect these things to happen in one generation. Also, keep in mind that sometimes changes happen that are clearly not advantageous due to purely to chance, founder effects, etc. For example, humans have a defective gene for the enzyme that makes vitamin C, while all mammals, except apes and guinea pigs, have functional copies of the gene. This is why humans are susceptible to scurvy while other mammals are not and why we must take in vitamin C in our diet. Looking at the current iterations of animals, especially humans, is probably not the best way to study evolution because the influence of humans and modern society has changed the game so much. Evolution is best studied over millions of years. GodWarrior 09:57, 29 May 2007 (EDT)

Article name

I've normally heard of these things as vestigial organs, not structures. I'd vote to change the page name accordingly. Any objections? Philip J. Rayment 08:00, 28 May 2007 (EDT)

Actually, Vestigial organs already exists. So any objections to the content of this one replacing the content of the other? Philip J. Rayment 08:04, 28 May 2007 (EDT)

I have no objection. Learn together 14:24, 28 May 2007 (EDT)