Talk:Democratic Party

Criticism

When President Bush talked about amending the Constitution to outlaw gay marriage, he was opposed by both Democrats and Republicans. The Republicans against it tended to oppose the move based on states' rights. Also, the comment that Democrats "don't care about American families" is opinion, not fact. It should be removed. --Dave3172 22:05, 9 March 2007 (EST)

This article has the biggest POV I have ever seen, and it offers no adequate description of the Democratic party. Rather, it is a catalog of what conservatives believe that Democrats believe, and it is filled with slanted descriptions ("The Homosexual Agenda") that do not advance the purpose of the article. Perhaps this article should be renamed "List of conservative misinterpretations of the Democratic party." That would immediately solve the problems mentioned above. --WhatWouldJesusEdit? 11:13, 15 March 2007 (EDT)

And yet the Republican Party page has no such sections on Criticism. At least this site could have the courage to be somewhat fair in their heavily biased presentation of "facts". What a joke. I mean really, is this site trying to look idiotic??

Yes. (Another edition of simple answers to simple questions.)--Jack 04:43, 21 April 2007 (EDT)

Some of these?

"The Democratic Party, as a political unit, supports abortion, gun control, and organized labor, and the funding of some of these by taxes."

Seriously. "Some of these?" It's a list of three whole items. Gun control is legislation, unions are a bargaining community of workers, and abortion is a medical procedure. Of these, one needs funding, one can receive incentives, and one either is passed, or is not. If we're going to say "the Democratic party supports taxpayer-funded abortion", well, frankly, we'd be seriously stretching the facts, but we should at least have the courage to be concise and say that. Zondergard

Ummm, why did the post with a link to his poll numbers get taken down. That seems like it goes against your commandments.--Jack 17:47, 17 March 2007 (EDT)

ic

The name of the party is the Democratic Party. If you would like to use a disparaging name for the party, at least choose one that is an adjective. Myk 13:51, 19 March 2007 (EDT)

Pro-Terrorism

So, let me get this straight. Being opposed to invading another country means that you support terrorism? That's logically unsound. Stargrave 15:13, 20 March 2007 (EDT)

You're right. MountainDew 18:45, 20 March 2007 (EDT)

(A)There are terrorists in Iraq. (B) If you don't fight terrorists you are with them (George W. Bush 2003). C) Dem's voted against fighting terrorists...therefore they are with them! How's that for logic yankee!

Logical fallacy in the extreme. (A) Was not, as far as I recall, conclusively proven at the time of the vote you cite. Please cite proof that it was, or retract. (B) Is a mans opinion. No less, no more. (B) is the logical fallacy known as a Falsified Dilemma, and your reliance upon it is the fallacy known as Appeal to Authority. Look them up. The given points also conflate the notion of going to war in Iraq with war against terrorists, which is yet another logical fallacy. The whole thing is also an Appeal to Emotion.

Oh, and I'm english. That's an ad hominem attack right there. The opposite of appeal to authority. Basically, you've taken two faulty assumptions, a list of people you disagree with, and used that to make a statement of fact (C). Now, I could care less about your personal opinion of me, and of your (or my) opinion of the party we're discussing, but in something that's supposedly encylopedic, using such logical constructs. I respectfully request you restrain your enthusiasm, and keep to facts, not opinions. Stargrave 11:58, 21 March 2007 (EDT)

Use of AD

The article uses AD for no apparent reason; for any given year, AD is automatically assumed unless BC or BCE is used. It also misuses it; it's AD 2007 and not the other way around. I've noticed other articles with a similar usage.

Liberal Economics

Liberal economics is not a political term. Being an economic liberal means, among other things, little government intrusion into the markets or into the affairs of business. Liberal economics favors balanced budgets over either surpluses or deficits. --Cracker^talk 02:11, 24 March 2007 (EDT)

Yes; then we can safely say Ronald Reagan was a liberal. RobS 11:40, 24 March 2007 (EDT)

In this classical use of the term Ronald Reagan was an economic liberal. He supported deregulation, free trade, low taxes... That is basically what an "economic liberal" is. It has nothing to do with "Liberal" or "Conservative" and is somewhat of an archaic term. To make matters worse most liberals are not "economic liberals" (they support tariffs and heavy handed forms of central planning to promote "fairness" and "economic justice"). Richard 01:54, 25 March 2007 (EDT)

You've nailed the issue on the head. Ronald Reagan and Boris Yeltsin are two recent examples in history of liberals; as User:Order raised the issue here [1] comparing the American use of the term vs its use outside the US. RobS 12:42, 26 March 2007 (EDT)

So if little government intervention in the economy is the liberal stance on economics... does that make socialism the conservative viewpoint? GodlessLiberal 23:06, 26 March 2007 (EDT)

Good question. That presupposes liberalism and conservatism are polar opposites. Now, in a purely cycnical sense, one can say that they are, just as sanity and insanity are polar opposites. This is one reason I personally do not subscribe to the spectrum theory.

In economic theory, liberality and prodigality are polar opposites. In American political culture, "liberals" really are for the most part socialists; however in its American use it carries a connotation of "treasonous". This is absent outside of America, were many American allies, Britain or Israel for example, have Socialist governments. Not just Socialist laws or policies, actual Socialist parties in control of government. So if we were to apply that American understanding of the term, i.e. that a "Socialist" is "anti-American", how do we explain close allies being "anti-American"?

Thus, American political vocabulary is all screwed up. And all we can really say for sure is both terms, liberal and socialist, are abused and neither conveys a clear meaning. RobS 23:38, 26 March 2007 (EDT)

By Jefferson?

Democratic Party founded by Jefferson... Humm. I thought he founded the Democratic-Republican party which was actually referred to by contemporaries as the "Republican" party. The modern Democratic party is the result of several splinter and transitions just like the Republican Party. Arguably both parties are splinters from Jefferson's original party, just the Republican party went through the transition to the Whig party first. Richard 01:34, 25 March 2007 (EDT)

You should learn how to place information in a talk page appropriately

And you should learn to make an account and sign your entries so as not to appear as a cowardly wiseguy. Jros83 15:56, 27 June 2007 (EDT)

Sources

Seriously, I thought I would clean up the presentation seeing as I can't in good conscience touch the content... but... GEE WHIZ these sources are awful. A column? Cheesy little websites with election trivia? Pictures of maps? This is the best we could do? Myk 03:25, 28 March 2007 (EDT)

Remove the polling data, it's worthless

Opinion polls are not worthy of mention in an encyclopedia, except maybe to provide background information for a specific political event, such as an election. If someone is reading this article two years from now, do you think the democrat Congress's approval rating in the second week of April 2007 will be relevant to them? Of course not. I'm not going to summarily remove it now, but I suspect most intelligent people will agree with me that it doesn't belong.--Conservateur 14:07, 26 April 2007 (EDT)

I'm more than happy to let it stay...provided we add the same polling data to the Republican Party page and the George W. Bush page. We are supposed to be even-handed here, right?--Dave3172 14:23, 26 April 2007 (EDT)

No, we're supposed to be writing educational, clear, and concise articles. Polling data is useless in almost any context. I vote to remove it. Who's with me?--Conservateur 14:34, 26 April 2007 (EDT)

I strongly disagree. I'm actually taking a Public Opinion course right now in college, and it's a very important gauge of historical support and for looking back and seeing why policies were enacted. Plus, once it's no longer April or whatever, we can remove it anyway. DanH 14:36, 26 April 2007 (EDT)

Well your public opinion course is probably taught by a bunch of liberals who live and die by opinion polls. And which enacted policies does the poll mentioned in this article help explain? None. My point is, if they are not being used to help understand the political climate surrounding a particular event, they are utterly useless because they're out of date not long after they're released. So unless someone wants to keep this article updated with current polling information until the end of time, there is no reason to have it.--Conservateur 14:54, 26 April 2007 (EDT)

The first major expansion to Iraq War, for example, had absolutley nothing whatsoever to do with the war, it's causes, it's course, etc. It was an insertion of extensive polling data [2] A lenghty edit war ensued, and the material not only is still in the article, it has its own subhead.[3] Because opinion polls are obviously important to some editors not only in giving meaningful context, but in creating meaningful context, this material should stay in this article and be updated periodically. RobS 15:19, 26 April 2007 (EDT)

I would agree if the polls were used in any meaningful context in this article, but they aren't. What is the point of saying that according to some research poll, 50% of Americans currently identify with the democrat party? Or that as of 4/18, 53% of Americans support the democrat Congress. Are these numbers rising? Falling? Are they a cause or effect of the 2006 election, or both? There's no context. People can come up with statistics to prove anything. 40% of all people know that.--Conservateur 15:30, 26 April 2007 (EDT)

The point is, polling obviously is important to many contributors. They evidently either make personal judgements based upon polling data, or view it as foundational to any public arguement or discourse. And it's hard to argue with statistics. RobS 15:40, 26 April 2007 (EDT)

1. 1, your ad hominem attack on a professor you don't even know the name of (and whose political views I don't even know, because the course is taught in a nonpartisan manner) has no bearing whatsoever on this debate, and #2, I never said that the data should ever be anything more than temporary and relevant. Do we refuse to list the governors of states because this changes over time? DanH 15:21, 26 April 2007 (EDT)

If you think that calling a professor a liberal is an attack, I guess that's your problem. But your ridiculous question about governors just weakens your argument. There is only one governor of a state at any given time, but there are dozens of opinion polls which rarely come up with the same results. So adding opinion polls willy nilly in an encyclopedia article does nothing but detract from its intent of being factual.--Conservateur 15:36, 26 April 2007 (EDT)

Wait a second. This article includes the slanted weasel words "Democratic national leadership has been accused of being ambivalent about terrorism[11] and insufficiently patriotic" ... they are cited, mind you, but aren't these attacks pretty much the same as opinion polls? Why not link to the copious amounts of info that says Democrats are quite patriotic and serious about terror? Why choose these two extremely biased opinion links? Are these really "facts" worth building an encyclopedia entry around? --Wennberg 22:27, 23 May 2007 (EDT)

Please

The sentence: Democrats in the US Congress currently have a 53.8% disapproval and a 36.8% approval rating according to the RealClearPolitics Average of several dozens of Congressional Job Approval polls conducted 04/05 - 04/18. [4] This is the "Congressional job Approval poll" not the "democratic congress approval poll". Rob Pommer_talk

Hmm, let's see, who controls the US House of Reps & the Senate.... RobS 12:28, 3 May 2007 (EDT)

Fair enough...let us also include the pre-election numbers then shall we? Based on the Fox News Poll of 10-11-2006 Approve:31% Disapprove:63% Spread:-32% ( from the same source). Rob Pommer_talk

What those numbers show is the misreporting on GW Bush's poll numbers. Both Bush & the Democratic Congress suffer from negative polls, 60/40. IOW, people do not disapprove of Bush personally, people disapprove of the performance of government in general. RobS 12:43, 3 May 2007 (EDT)

The poll should be taken out because it doesn't relate specifically to the Democratic Party. The poll is talking about the Republican Party and the Democratic Party. It doesn't matter that the Democrats are in control of Congress. If you were able to get a statistic about just the Democrat approval rating in Congress than you might be able to use it, but as it is right now some of the people in the poll are saying how they don't approve what the Republicans are doing in Congress too. --Spyder 13:51, 7 May 2007 (EDT)

History

The Treaty of Ghent called for everything to return to the Status Quo Antebellum. In other words, a draw. The text of the treaty can be read in the United States Statutes at Large found here <http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/ampage?collId=llsl&fileName=008/llsl008.db&recNum=231> --1048247 13:50, 6 May 2007 (EDT)

While Status Quo Antebellum referes to territorial disputesd, it does not refere to other objectives, American complaint of British interference on the high seas. So while Britain failed in it achieving its objectives it can be considered defeated. Whereas the US achieiving its stated aims, it can be considered victorious. RobS 13:59, 6 May 2007 (EDT)

Most good college level textbooks (Tindall and Shi, and Ayers, Gould, et. al.) have the war as a draw. The two nations agreed to end the conflict, leave prewar boundries in place, and return prisoners. All other questions were to be settled in the future. It would be difficult to see this as anything other than a draw.--1048247 14:06, 6 May 2007 (EDT)

OK, good points. No problem. RobS 14:11, 6 May 2007 (EDT)

To whoever keeps changing this part. Follow the link above and read the treaty.

Needed citations

This article needs some citations. I decided to help out by flagging some of the facts that needed to be supported. --Wennberg 22:21, 23 May 2007 (EDT)

Reversions

In reply to Johnl's questions for the reverts, the reason is obvious: FDR failed to lead the U.S. out of the depression, instead keeping the U.S. in a depression until WWII. Nor did FDR lead us to victory in WWII. FDR was dying in 1945.--Aschlafly 18:56, 24 May 2007 (EDT)

He died I think over a month or two before VE day.Bohdan ^Talk 18:56, 24 May 2007 (EDT)

Shouldn't it at least be mentioned that he led the nation during important battles; Normandy, Midway, etc.? --Hojimachong^talk 18:58, 24 May 2007 (EDT)

Looks like I am wrong. He died a little less than a month before VE day. But he was incapacitated a while before then.Bohdan ^Talk 19:00, 24 May 2007 (EDT)

FDR led the US for most fo the war.

WWII was basically between the Soviet Union & Germany; if anybody "won" the War, it was the Soviet Union. 88% of all casualties in WWII were in the Soviet Union. RobS 21:15, 24 May 2007 (EDT)

Further, FDR did not "lead the US out of the Depression"; the New Ordeal (a euphemism for "New Deal") lasted until 1949. RobS 21:58, 24 May 2007 (EDT)

Hmmph you know I'm almost afraid to say this, becaunse I'm not the type tostart screaming conspiracy, however it does seem as if this is a blatant attempt to make a DEMOCRAT president seem as if he was completely unimportant and totally irrelevant to the nation during perhaps the biggest and most influential crisis in modern history of which we (theUnited States) were the deciding factor in. Come on... So FDR was a Democrat. So what. To make it seem as if he wasn't all that important (in apositive manner) is a bit silly. Jros83 16:00, 27 June 2007 (EDT)

True; the planet would indeed be a different place if FDR didn't get elected. Some credit should be given to the courageous souls who supported him, without whom we'd all be eating sauerkraut and sushi right now. Why I just read how Strom Thurmond supported FDR for a fourth term. [5] RobS 16:11, 27 June 2007 (EDT)

Even when you're being sarcastic it is nice to see acknowledgment and validation of his positive importance. Jros83 16:41, 27 June 2007 (EDT)

Yes, FDR & the Kennedy's prove the falacy of Marxism; the Roosevelt's and the Kennedy's prove that rich aristocrats who never did a stitch of labor in thier life, that inherited it all by exploiting the poor, actually (a) may have a function and (b) usefulness on this planet. RobS 18:17, 27 June 2007 (EDT)

You're not dragging me into a loaded "debate." I don't agree with your opinion on what you just mentioned, and I find it all too convenient that you chose two figures I recently did critiques of their articles on here. But I'm not biting. Honestly I'd expect better of a sysop. Jros83 02:08, 28 June 2007 (EDT)

Huh? Wha...? Please show me where the above analysis of the Roosevelt's, Kennedy's & Marxist theory is in error. RobS 09:40, 28 June 2007 (EDT)

P.S. No need to make personal comments directed at me over this. I apologize, my faith prohibits me from worshipping human beings; that many Democrats and liberals have looked to the messianic vision of the Roosevelt & Kennedy families for generations is a matter of record. Please, let's not allow anti-religious bigotry into this discussion. Thank you. RobS

Religion section

For some reason, Jim Webb of VA is listed in this section as a catholic, he is not. He is protestant of some sort. I'm going to change his name to that of former president JFK, who is a much more prominent catholic