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::::::::IOW, self interest, or greed. This was [[Cain]]'s problem, was it not, when he murdered [[Abel]]. So this idea is hardly "modern."
::::::::IOW, self interest, or greed. This was [[Cain]]'s problem, was it not, when he murdered [[Abel]]. So this idea is hardly "modern."
::::::::So you're argument is that commiting fraud & slander somehow benefits the free market and furthers economic progress. I may take a different view, of course, beleiving that to stop such things is why we have police, courts, and regulation. And of course morality cannot be legislated, so there is also a question of self-policing ethical standards. You seem to be arguing that slander & fraud somehow can be tolerated as artistic (or as Moore might argue journalistic) license. This is all debating what the meaning of is "is." That's fine with me, let's continue debating what the meaning of "bilked" is then, since there's a big gapping hole whether Moore's life's opus is "art" or "journalism." Right now, there seems to be a wide general concensus it is "schlock." [[User:RobS|Rob Smith]] 12:32, 2 August 2007 (EDT)
::::::::So you're argument is that commiting fraud & slander somehow benefits the free market and furthers economic progress. I may take a different view, of course, beleiving that to stop such things is why we have police, courts, and regulation. And of course morality cannot be legislated, so there is also a question of self-policing ethical standards. You seem to be arguing that slander & fraud somehow can be tolerated as artistic (or as Moore might argue journalistic) license. This is all debating what the meaning of is "is." That's fine with me, let's continue debating what the meaning of "bilked" is then, since there's a big gapping hole whether Moore's life's opus is "art" or "journalism." Right now, there seems to be a wide general concensus it is "schlock." [[User:RobS|Rob Smith]] 12:32, 2 August 2007 (EDT)
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Haha "artistic" and Hollywood! Now I agree that many of the junk that is regurgitated by Hollywood could hardly be seen as "artistic", but it is a medium for conveyance of ideas, and it fits my broad definition of "art". (Not that I care for "art")
I didn't mention that fraud and slander "benefits the free market". I wanted to state that Moore's movies merely fits within the constraints of the free market - benefit is subjective. I don't think that increasing a person's own wealth is greed - I have a job right now, and I need the money to pay for tuition. My parents have jobs to put food on the table - is that greed? When Cain murdered Abel, he went outside the constraints of the free market - and that's wrong. That's why there are, as you stated, police, courts and regulations to punish those who don't play by the rules of the free market.
Alright, to sum up - you believe that Moore is using lies and misinformation in the production of movies; I believe that he stretches the truth and use convenient omissions to bring across his point. You believe that he did his movies to bilk the public (with the intention of monetary gains, I think?); I believe that it is his prerogative to create a movie about anything - truth or fiction - in Hollywood (and yes, he wants money, but also to bring across his point as a far-left liberal). We're obviously not going to resolve this, and if I change the word it'll just come down to an edit war. How about a compromise? Something along the lines of "Moore's films have grossed over x dollars worldwide. Some critics have ..." <insert criticism & citation here>.
See, even when I write that down it becomes obvious that there is no way the original statement can stay in an encyclopedia article. Cite it, or cut it. Even citations that says he "bilked" the money would be an opinion piece, which is not acceptable in Conservapedia. Unless you find some sort of official enquiry that determined Moore cheated the public the money, the world "bilk" has no place in the article.
[[User:ATang|ATang]] 12:38, 3 August 2007 (EDT)