Talk:Examples of Bias in Wikipedia

Talk:Examples of Bias in Wikipedia/Archive1 Talk:Examples of Bias in Wikipedia/Archive2

Reply (to this)

Aschafly: Sure, go ahead. Just remember to attribute. And i'm not hiding anything. I am a liberal.

Order: I took that view from looking at the above talk page. Also, you should remember that Wikipedia generally inflates that count since around 70-80% of those accounts are vandalism only by my estimates, even back when I was doing that study when there were only around 800,000 user names.

Even if there are only 10%, i.e. 380 000, active wikipedians, a group of 20 self selcted respondants is still insignificant. --Order 17 March, 18:35 (AEST)

There were around 50, and they weren't self selected. Karmafist 15:45, 17 March 2007 (EDT)

How did you get the sample, if I may ask? -- Order 18 March, 21:40 (AEST)

Others: Feel free to add to the study if you want in any way you'd like. Just remember to attribute the initial research. I took it basically by word of mouth in metapedian areas, that old user name of mine ("I", the real world "I", Andrew Sylvia, has a few more user accounts that still edit actively, including a few admin accounts) had around 10,000 welcomes if I remember correctly.

And "I"(karmafist, not "me") didn't leave that place due to this survey, it was because I fought the tyrant that runs Wikipedia when he bullied an underage minor and sacrificed my reputation with those monsters for it. Karmafist 22:57, 16 March 2007 (EDT)

Using fun statistics on wikipedia, just turn this site into a joke

I just saw that there is an additonal item on the list on bias using yet another fun statistic. You are now also quoting List of wikipedians by religion. This has nothing to do with being a responsible serious site anymore. A very bad example for the rest of the editors. -- Order 17 March, 18:50 (AEST)

Polls show that America has more than three times higher percentaeg Christians (77% in 2001) http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_prac2.htm than Wikipedia (23% in 2006) http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/List_of_Wikimedians_by_religion (higher percentage Christian Wikimedias though 29%)

Thanks for proving my point. -- Order 18 March, 21:40 (AEST)

Ratio (again)

This ratio is totally bogus because the words are loaded. The reason that the number of people who say that they are conservative has been increasing for the last two decades is not because America is becoming more conservative, but rather because the conservative movement has made a concerted propaganda effort to demonize the word "liberal" and prop up the word "conservative". The proof is in the pudding: If you instead ask people what their political views are, the evidence suggest that people overwhelmingly entertain liberal positions on most issues. For example:

(1) As of 3/11/2007, 69% of the country feels that the country is "on the wrong track" after 12 years of Republican control of Congress and 6 years of a Republican president.

(2) 59% of Americans have an "unfavorable" opinion of the republican party, compared to only 43% for the democratic party.

(3) 51% of the public respond that they "feel closer" to the democratic party than the republican party, compared to ony 40% for the republican party.

source: http://graphics.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/national/20070313_pollresults.pdf

Other studies show that most Americans disagree with the republican position on a whole host of issues, including: the international criminal court, global warming, protecting the environment, the Kyoto Treaty, nonproliferation treaty, etc. Interestingly, people who watch Fox News tend to believe that the Bush/Republican position is similar to their own position even though that is not true, which bolsters my suggestion that the conservative propagandists misinform the public. This is all very well documented in the PIPA study about misperceptions in the media, which can be found here: http://65.109.167.118/pipa/pdf/oct03/IraqMedia_Oct03_rpt.pdf

Why hasn't the statistic displayed been changed, even though it has been conclusively demonstrated that the math is bad? In addition, I would not define "liberal bias" as the ratio of liberals to conservatives in a group, that is simply anti-intellectual. If they were editing from a liberal POV, instead of an NPOV (the two are different things), then it might be somewhat reasonable. Geekman314^{(contact me)} 15:15, 17 March 2007 (EDT)

I defined "liberal bias" in the only sensible way possible: the ratio of liberals to conservatives in a group. If you have a different definition, then let's hear it. Based on my definition, the ratio of 6 is plainly correct. Liberal math to try to get a different result for 3 divided by 1/2 doesn't fly here.--Aschlafly 15:26, 17 March 2007 (EDT)

No, it's plainly not. If 2:1 is a 200% liberal bias, then that makes 1:1, a completely unbiased ratio, 100% liberal. According to your definition of ratios, the only non-liberal-bias is no liberals at all. So what makes your idea of ratios the "only sensible way possible"? --LutherBifteck 16:28, 17 March 2007 (EDT)

What? Liberal math? You divide the fraction of liberals in Wikipedia (3/4) by the fraction of liberals in America (1/3), and you get (9/4). Thats 5th grade math, not liberal math. And you graduated from Harvard? NickJ10 16:59, 17 March 2007 (EDT)

Folks, I've asked someone to propose a different definition of liberal bias. My definition makes the most sense because its scale is from 0 to infinity, like the Kelvin temperature scale preferred by scientists. No one has proposed a plausible alternative scale for liberal bias. Based on the obvious definition, my math is correct.--Aschlafly 20:56, 17 March 2007 (EDT)

What kind of argument is this? It scales from 0 to infinity? There are many continuous monotonous functions that have an [0, infinity] range. Actually, there are infinitely many. There are even uncountably many. --Order 18 March, 14:00 (AEST)

• First, you use raw numbers of a self selected group to come to do your statistics. Any conclusion drawn from it is speculative at best. A no-no in statistics 101.
• What raw data can do shows this example: In the harris poll 34% of all people are conservative. Your raw data on Wikipedia gives that 36% are conservative. This means that wikipedia is at least as conservative as the american public.
• You assume that articles written by a conservative are automatically convervatively biased, and articles written by liberal liberally biased.
• You simple forget about the 40% moderates in the Harris poll. Your stament six time more liberal than American public compares liberals to the American public as a whole, including moderates, your math however doesn't count moderates.
• What you need to compare, if anything, compare the percentages of the overall population. Because with your math it doesn't matter if there are 66% conservatives in a population vs 33% liberals, or 12% vs 6%, or two conservatives vs one liberal.

What raw data from a self selected sample, with your approach to fractional math, can do was demonstarted in Wikipedia 87.5% more New Jersyian than America and Wikipedia 75 times as biased towards Erdos than average mathematicians. Talking about fun statistics. --Order 18 March, 12:00 (AEST)

We had an editing conflict, so here my answer to your question on how to define liberal bias.

• You say Wikipedia is six times more liberal than the American public..
• This means you compare Liberals to the American public.
• The American public includes Liberals, Moderates, and Conservatives.
• What you need to compare is the percentage of liberals in America vs the percentage of liberally biased articles in Wikipedia. To obtain an estimate for the latter just look at 100 random pages (or better 1000), and count the pages that have a liberal bias. Done. --Order 18 March, 12:10 (AEST)

Re: #6 (Great Flood)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noah%27s_Ark

And which term do you think people are more familiar with -- Noah's Ark or "Great Flood"? Many civilizations have had a "great flood" story at one point or another, so why cater only to the Christians?

--LutherBifteck 20:25, 17 March 2007 (EDT)

It gets worse from there. The "Deluge (mythology)" article covers many flood myths, including the Noah one. but here's the start of the Noah section:

Hebrew (Genesis)

Further information about the Genesis version can be found at Noah's Ark.

And the "Noah's Ark" bit is actually a link to the article LutherBifteck mentioned. This "bias" entry is more than silly, it's just plain wrong or misinformed. --Sid 3050 20:39, 17 March 2007 (EDT)

REPLY: The Noah's Ark entry on Wikipedia has the same bias, with numerous references to "myth" and "story", and gratuitous claims that it is rejected today. 60% of Americans accept that the Great Flood occurred. You obviously disagree, which is fine, but your view is way out of step with the American public.--Aschlafly 20:59, 17 March 2007 (EDT)

That may very possibly be because I'm not a member of the American public. Not even to mention that Americans aren't the majority of Wikipedia users... (Assuming that you actually meant me... it's hard to tell when your reply comes on the "opening post" level addresses an unnamed "you") --Sid 3050 21:21, 17 March 2007 (EDT)

All narrative Bible verses are called stories. What word would you like in its place? Dictionary.com defines "myth" as "a traditional or legendary story, usually concerning some being or hero or event, with or without a determinable basis of fact or a natural explanation". Noah's Ark is the very definition of a myth.

What gratuitious claims? Noah's Ark maybe accepted by 60% of Americans (who you seem to think are the sole users of Wikipedia), but don't the 40% of people who don't believe it count for something? I have not found one thing in that article to the effect "nobody really believes the Great Flood story anymore."--LutherBifteck 21:23, 17 March 2007 (EDT)

Palestinian people on Wikipedia

The Wikipedia article on Palestinian people screams with bias. Time and time again have others tried to remove the top photograph of young children, with no avail. Encyclopedic articles on other cultures and groups of people do not try to invoke sympathy and emotions by posting images of cute and innocent children. This is clearly a propaganda piece, and it holds no merit. There should be a note of this on the Examples of Bias in Wikipedia list. Wikipedialol 20:43, 17 March 2007 (EDT)

Boy, you really opened my eyes to Wikipedia's bias here. Not only are children's photographs used there, but it makes no mention of the PLO as a terrorist organization. In fact, it doesn't even define the PLO! Click on the PLO entry, and there is no acknowledgement of its massacre of innocent athletes at the Munich Olympics in 1972. I'll add this now. Thanks much for pointing this out ... and I hope you can stick around and enter some info here.--Aschlafly 21:05, 17 March 2007 (EDT)

Yes, it's true that the 'Palestinian people' article omits the words "terror" and "terrorism", but the intro to the 'PLO' article contains the following statement:

• The PLO was considered "the richest of all terrorist organizations" with $8-$10 billion in assets and an annual income of $1.5-$2 billion from "donations, extortion, payoffs, illegal arms dealing, drug trafficking, money laundering, fraud, etc.", according to a 1993 National Criminal Intelligence Service report. The Daily Telegraph reported in 1999 that the PLO had $50 billion in secret investments around the world.

Not to mention direct European Union subsidies. RobS 12:45, 19 March 2007 (EDT)

Uh... actually, there is acknowledgement of the Munich Olympics massacre at the bottom of the page, and there's a whole section devoted to PLO as a terrorist organization.--LutherBifteck 21:26, 17 March 2007 (EDT)

The "acknowledgement" of the Munich Olympics massacre at the bottom of the page is part of a template, not the article itself. Wikipedialol 22:02, 17 March 2007 (EDT)

Why must it be acknowledged in the article itself? "In 1972, a terrorist organization some believe to have been controlled by a faction of the PLO..." If you want to add it in there, go ahead. Just try to keep a neutral tone. --LutherBifteck 22:04, 17 March 2007 (EDT)

Besides, the Munich massacre has its own article. Why does an already long article need to state stuff that's extensively covered in other articles already? And yes, I agree that several things on the list fall/fell into the "Well, then just add it!" category. But Conservapedia appears to be more proud of pointing and shouting so that it can praise itself for doing so once somebody edits the article. --Sid 3050 22:10, 17 March 2007 (EDT)

So that it can be immediately shot down and reverted in the name of "fighting vandalism" by some self-appointed administrator? No thanks. The majority of regulars on Wikipedia, who have enough free time to dedicate their lives to editing and monitoring articles, are usually teenagers, unemployed, or both. It is no surprise as to which way they lean on the political spectrum. Wikipedialol 22:26, 17 March 2007 (EDT)

There are many liberals, especially in the US, that are very supportive of Israel. A POV article on Palestinians isn't proof of a liberal bias, its proof that you'll find, since Wikipedia is international, more pro-palestinian and anti-israelian rethoric than Americans (Conservatives and Liberals) are used to. --Order 18 March 1:50 (AEST)

I'm really starting to think this site is a joke. I mean, you can't really be this... never mind. I don't see anything other than that one picture that indicates that the article is a 'propoganda piece'. And the title of the article is 'Palestinian People'; therefore, the article is about the Palestinian people. NOT the PLO. Palestinian people. The PLO is defined in- you guessed it! - the PLO article! Isn't it starting to come together now? And maybe the same goes for the Munich Massacres! I think we might be on to something! --NickJ10 23:50, 17 March 2007 (EDT)

Three, actually. It is not a matter of posting images of the PLO (how does the PLO keep sneaking into this conversation?), it is a matter of posting images more suitable for an encyclopedia. Perfect examples are Turkish people, Greek people, Finnish people, and Norwegian people. Is it really that difficult to understand the difference between something encyclopedic and something that invokes emotions, like these, three, images.? Wikipedialol 11:16, 18 March 2007 (EDT)

So it's the same sort of thing as the inclusion of an image of a fetus in utero on the abortion page here on Conservapedia?--Murray 13:39, 19 March 2007 (EDT)

I was referring to Aschlafly's post (second one in this section). Even if the picture does invoke sympathy, it doesnt make the whole article biased. And its been removed now.NickJ10 22:45, 18 March 2007 (EDT)

OK, at least one person at Wikipedia corrected this biased item. It's a start, and I've reflected that change on the content page here. Add a meaningful admission of terrorism in the entry on the Palestinian people (terrorists are people) and I would update the remainder of Point 2.--Aschlafly 23:17, 18 March 2007 (EDT)

The key to understanding the way bias is handled on conservapedia is the likes of Barnum and Baily not Merriam and Webster. If you realize this is simply a promotional campiagn built on the poisonous ideas of the radical (not conservative) right and hard core fundamental evangelical 'christians' (as opposed to real world loving Christians) and place its editors in the context of impressarios not scholars, it all makes sense. Hate is this family's value. Godman 09:03, 18 March 2007 (EDT)

Thanks for pointing out that it was an article about the Palestinian people, and not the PLO. What is wrong with you people, that you cannot bear seening a picture of kids from another people? What did Jesus say when he saw childern? Take them away because I cannot bear their sight? Guess not --Order 18 March, 11:40 (ASET).

Hi, I'm "Uncle Ed" from Wikipedia, and I'd like to comment on the 'Palestinian' articles. I spent countless hours brokering agreements on terminology and value statements. I am the original author of 'Definitions of Palestine and Palestinian', which I worked out in collaboration with a pro-Arab contributor.

It's not easy to maintain editorial neutrality, especially on topics which attract a majority of Liberal contributors. But it often can be done, with effort and patience. What's the rush? It took God 6 days to create the universe, and for Him "a day is as a thousand years". If He can be patient, shouldn't we? --Ed Poor 12:48, 19 March 2007 (EDT)

Ed, you sound like a terrific editor and you're welcome here anytime. We have many (including myself) who left Wikipedia after tiring of dealing with an overwhelmingly liberal group of editors there. You seem to acknowledge that environment at Wikipedia by referencing "a majority of Liberal contributors."

But the problem is getting worse on Wikipedia, not better. More time is not the solution. Better rules are the answer, which is what we have here. That enables us to be "neutral" to the facts, not to the political views of a majority. If you would like to post a new, factual entry on the Palestinian people here, we would welcome it. Thanks for your thoughts.--Aschlafly 13:19, 19 March 2007 (EDT)

Hi Ed! We've never talked, but I know you get great respect over there. The points you cite here are so true. Rather than silence a "sparring partner" we actually can sharpen our own skills and outlook. It's not always a matter of converting another editor, being openminded means an editor should be able to recognize thier own flaws by hearing a well reasoned argument. RobS 13:29, 19 March 2007 (EDT)

The Face of Terror: Basque ETA?

As is expected, the "safe" and politically-correct path was taken in choosing an image to post on Wikipedia's article on terrorism. Some of the most prominent and widely recognized terrorist groups in today's world include Al-Qaeda, Hamas, and Hezbollah; all of which are compromised of fanatical Muslims. However, the one and only image used to display an example of terrorists on the article coincidentally happens to be a non-Muslim group: Basque Fatherland and Liberty: ETA. How pathetically feeble. It is very apparent that Wikipedia is doing its best to be politically correct, as to avoid "offending" certain groups of people. As subtle as these instances of bias are, they make quite an impact with their sheer numbers, combinations, and occurrences. Wikipedialol 22:00, 17 March 2007 (EDT)

And the one and only image used to display an example of terrorism is the World Trade Center. Who exactly is Wikipedia biased against by not showing a Muslim terrorist group? The Basque ETA?--LutherBifteck 22:04, 17 March 2007 (EDT)

The attacks on the World Trade Center may or may not be terrorism, after all:

"I believe the photograph of the WTC used in this article invokes doctrined points of view without proof or cause. Although the 9/11 acts can very easily be described as 'Acts Of Terrorism', that is an assumption with no solid references."

Just because something is done in subtle manner, that does not mean it is not biased. Wikipedialol 22:17, 17 March 2007 (EDT)

Again, biased against who?--LutherBifteck 22:24, 17 March 2007 (EDT)