Talk:Counterexamples to an Old Earth

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I'd like to take out the phrase "asserted by atheists" from one of the Astronomy counterexamples, because it is not just atheists who believe in an Old Earth but also Old Earth Creationists. Any objections? --Ed Poor ^Talk 07:37, 20 April 2010 (EDT)

Freshwater lakes are known to be relatively young.

I'd like to have this point removed: The previous discussion has shown that it doesn't have any merit.

FrankC aka ComedyFan 15:05, 2 May 2010 (EDT)

As no one added to the previous discussion, I removed the point. FrankC aka ComedyFan 14:18, 9 May 2010 (EDT)

continued existence of fragile natural arches

That's as bad as the example of the lakes: it reminds me of stating: he cannot be old, all his pimples are recent. And the given references don't mention any extrapolation. FrankC aka ComedyFan 14:03, 9 May 2010 (EDT)

Great Lakes

The massive Great Lakes are receding in volume too rapidly to have existed millions of years ago

That would be only a counterexample, if there were any geologist who thought them to be millions of years old. But it seems to be scientific consensus that these lakes were created during the last great ice age ca. 10,000 years ago. FrankC aka ComedyFan 14:07, 9 May 2010 (EDT)

Salt Water Lakes

The existence of inland saltwater lakes, such as Mono Lake and the Great Salt Lake, suggest a recent global flood

No, it doesn't. It just suggests that endorheic lakes exist - lakes without an outflow to rivers or the ocean. If such a sea has an inflow, any dissolved material (like salts) will accumulate, while the water just evaporates.

FrankC aka ComedyFan 14:12, 9 May 2010 (EDT)

Reply to above 4 comments

The 4 comments above are not substantive. In each case, the evidence is that a basic attribute of Earth is young, and nothing above supports the denial of this fact.--Andy Schlafly 16:58, 9 May 2010 (EDT)

What's a counterexample?

Maybe we have to start with the question above. I think it is reasonable to expect a counterexample to have some basic properties:

1. it should not be easily - or even obviously - be reconciled or explained within the theory of an Old Earth.
2. it should be at least as well be explained within the concurring theory of a Young Earth and finally:
3. the negation of the counterexample should be even more obviously and more easily be reconciled or explained within the theory of an Old Earth.

What are the theories saying? Here are two working definitions...

Old Earth: Since the 18th century, scientist are convinced that the surface of the Earth is changing gradually over long periods of time. So, if there is a somewhat widespread geological feature, we expect that we can observe it in all stages of development.

Young Earth: The surface of the Earth was mainly shaped as we find it now by the Great Flood.

So, how do the examples fit in?

Frank, the style of your remarks reflect a lack of an open mind towards this issue. You state, "Since the 18th century, scientist[s] are convinced ... over long periods of time." This is an historical distortion, and unhelpful to an open-minded discussion even if were true.

I welcome open-minded discussions, but closed-minded discussions are often a waste of time. So please show some signs of an open mind about this first. Thanks.--Andy Schlafly 11:10, 11 May 2010 (EDT)

I'm all for an open-minded discussion, too, and I'm sorry if my previous comment didn't convey this. So, let's drop the historical aspect, and just say:

• Old Earth: The surface of the Earth is changing gradually over long periods of time, and the rate of this change is roughly constant.
• Young Earth: The surface of the Earth was mainly shaped by the Great Flood a couple of thousands years ago.

But I hope you can agree with the basic properties (points 1-3 above) a counterexample to an Old Earth should have?

FrankC aka ComedyFan 07:46, 12 May 2010 (EDT)

Frank, are you trying to refute any of the counterexamples? (In which case please provide some actual evidence) Your closed-minded insistence on causing argument seems pointless. ArnoldR 08:34, 12 May 2010 (EDT)

The continued existence of fragile natural arches without having collapsed a short time period for erosion and stresses on them

Fragile natural arches exist, as there are always formed new ones. Old natural arches collapse, but others may replace them. What if there were no natural arches? I don't think that anybody had thought of them then.

The massive Great Lakes are receding in volume too rapidly to have existed millions of years ago

No geologists thinks that these lakes are millions of years old: they were created during the last ice age. Lakes are constantly created (e.g., when rivers change there bed), and happen to perish over time (Messel pit). Some are older than others (Baikal sea). The absence of new lakes would be quite puzzling for geologists! And Earth isn't as young as the youngest lake, but much older than the oldest one... (by FrankC)

The "ice age theory" was a patch to try to explain away the counterexample. The patch fails, however, because freshwater lakes exist near the Equator, too far from any plausible ice.--Andy Schlafly 00:20, 15 May 2010 (EDT)

It quite a leap to get from Great Lakes were created during the last ice age to all lakes were created during the last ice age! There a various mechanisms to form a lake, though in the north (Canada, US, Finland) the ice age is responsible for most of them. I doubt that Young Earth Creationists claim that all lakes were created during the Great Flood, though I assume that they think that no lake is older than this.

BTW, what do you think of the three basic properties of a counterexample which I mentioned above?

FrankC aka ComedyFan 08:45, 18 May 2010 (EDT)

Well, then, the freshwater lakes that were not formed by the (implausible) "ice age" theory serve as a counterexample.

As to your suggestion of three basis properties of a counterexample, I comment on each here:

1. it should not be easily - or even obviously - be reconciled or explained within the theory of an Old Earth.

This would work if you include a requirement of plausibility.

2. it should be at least as well be explained within the concurring theory of a Young Earth and finally:

No, this is not required, but illustrates a basic flaw in Old-Earth-thinking. Do you think mathematicians accept the validity of a hypothesis as long as no competing hypothesis has been proven? Of course not.

3. the negation of the counterexample should be even more obviously and more easily be reconciled or explained within the theory of an Old Earth.

This is incoherent, but illustrates the contorted logic of Old-Earth advocates.--Andy Schlafly 10:39, 18 May 2010 (EDT)

implausible ice age theory? What's implausible about that? It just doesn't fit your YEC preconceptions.

1. Yes, I include the requirement of plausibility. What's the point of implausible counterexamples?
2. Is there a third theory I haven't heard of? If the Earth isn't young, it is old.
3. This is incoherent, but illustrates the contorted logic of Old-Earth advocates. No, I'm afraid, that' just obvious common sense.

FrankC aka ComedyFan 10:55, 18 May 2010 (EDT)

Frank, if you're not going to address my substantive points, then please don't respond. I make a direct analogy to mathematical hypotheses and you ignored it. Do you really think a mathematical hypothesis must be true if there is no proof for the converse?--Andy Schlafly 11:16, 18 May 2010 (EDT)

I'm sorry, I seem to have missed the substantive points, so I try to make myself clearer by using the language of logic. So, let's C be a counterexample to the Old Earth Theory (OET). If C is true, than OET should be false, that's the first point:

1: C ⇒ ~OET. If C is a good counterexample, than this equation should be obvious for everyone.

I thought the Young Earth Theory (YET) and the Old Earth Theory to be complementary, so YET = ~OET. Therefore obviously

2: C ⇒ YET

And from 1, one gets

3: OET ⇒ ~C

I hope that this straightforward formulation is less confusing than my verbose the negation of the counterexample should be even more obviously and more easily be reconciled or explained within the theory of an Old Earth. I formulated it this way, as all this isn't as exact as one would wish for: what's an obvious relation for one, needs quite an elaborate explanation for another.

But now for The massive Great Lakes are receding in volume too rapidly to have existed millions of years ago . As I said before, OET don't claim that these lakes existed millions of years ago, but are quite recent. You then said : The patch fails, however, because freshwater lakes exist near the Equator, too far from any plausible ice. So, what's your counterexample now? Do you claim that the OET implies that all lakes are of the same age or were created in the same way? It seems to me that you are saying: As there are lakes near the Equator, the Great Lakes are millions of years old - according to OET. But that's just a strawman, and shouldn't be included in the list.

FrankC aka ComedyFan 10:31, 21 May 2010 (EDT)

The existence of inland saltwater lakes, such as Mono Lake and the Great Salt Lake, suggest a recent global flood

As said earlier, saltwater lakes are explained easily as being endorheic. If there were no saltwater seas, then the endorheic basins would have to be very unstable, preventing bodies of water to become older than a couple of hundred years. This would imply quite a geologic activity, which we don't observe. But how do these inland saltwater lakes fit within the theory of a Young Earth? Do you imply that the Earth was inundated by a salty ocean for forty days and nights? How could anything survive - and multiply - on this salty ground when the water receded? To explain these lakes with a global flood poses quite a few problems. So, this counterexample is especially unconvincing, as it fails all three basic properties...

An extrapolation of time between the collapse of weaker arches with still-standing stronger arches supports a young earth age

Has anyone done this extrapolation? Without it, the point is moot.

At the moment, the article impresses with the quantity of examples. But the obvious weakness of some examples distracts from other examples which may have some merit.

FrankC aka ComedyFan 09:00, 11 May 2010 (EDT)

Lakes again

• It was repeatedly explained why the Great Lakes are no countexample to an Old Earth.
• Aschlafly concluded: Well, then, the freshwater lakes that were not formed by the (implausible) "ice age" theory serve as a counterexample."
• Aschlafly, could you reformulate the counterexample in question? Thanks.

FrankC aka ComedyFan 10:49, 1 June 2010 (EDT)

There are large freshwater lakes near the Equator. Do you think an "Ice Age" formed them also?--Andy Schlafly 11:10, 1 June 2010 (EDT)

To quote myself: There a various mechanisms to form a lake, though in the north (Canada, US, Finland) the ice age is responsible for most of them. I doubt that Young Earth Creationists claim that all lakes were created during the Great Flood, though I assume that they think that no lake is older than this. FrankC aka ComedyFan 11:15, 1 June 2010 (EDT)

You may quote yourself, but your answer was less than direct. You seem to admit that that the Ice Age did NOT form the large freshwater lakes near the Equator. But I'm confident that any testing done on those lakes will reveal a young age for them also. That defies explanation consistent with an Old Earth theory.--Andy Schlafly 20:29, 1 June 2010 (EDT)

Implausibility of the Ice Age Theory

What's implausible about it? The article Ice Age doesn't say anything about plausibility. FrankC aka ComedyFan 10:51, 1 June 2010 (EDT)

What is implausible is that sheets of ice from the north would carve the Great Lakes in their unique shape, plus the Mississippi bluffs that sometimes face north-to-south, plus other unexpected formations. Has a computer simulation ever duplicated this result? I've never found a paper about such a simulation in my search for one. Have you?--Andy Schlafly 20:29, 1 June 2010 (EDT)