Talk:Matthew 20-28 (Translated)

21:12

Reversion explained: the edit significantly weakened the translation and introduced terms like "cashier" that are out of place. Please discuss first before making a sweeping edit in this entry.--Andy Schlafly 20:02, 19 November 2009 (EST)

28:19 - "Divine Guide"

I am curious about the translation of "Holy Ghost" to "Divine Guide". I would have expected "Holy Spirit", but this alternate term is very intriguing and I would like to learn more about it. Can anyone comment on how this term was developed? --FatherJoseph 14:57, 12 December 2009 (EST)

ἰδού

I don't endorse MandersB's tactic to replace every occurrence of ἰδού with at the moment. But he raises some interesting points:

• Andy, if you think that behold is archaic, why should it occur in the translation at all?
• Shouldn't it be possible to use at the moment as a translation for ἰδού more than once?
• I checked a couple of dictonaries and failed to find at the moment as a translation of ἰδού. Could you hint me to your source?

AugustO 09:50, 5 April 2011 (EDT)

I searched for a week for a source which states that at the moment is a nuance of ἰδού. I wasn't able to find one. That's why I put a source - tag to the translation. I hope that Aschlafly will show me where this translation comes from. AugustO 10:36, 15 April 2011 (EDT)

I did a Google search on:

• ἰδού "at that moment"

and nearly 20,000 items were found. I've added a cite to the content entry here.--Andy Schlafly 01:14, 16 April 2011 (EDT)

A google search! Well, for a moment a will join your light-hearted approach:

• ἰδού and yesterday results in 77,000 hits
• ἰδού and wow: 100,000 hits
• ἰδού and later: 200,000 hits

As wow is a demonstrative particle, often stressing what follows, it wouldn't be quite a bad translation! But we both know that such searches are meaningless.

And please keep in mind that this translation is meant to be a serious project: not everybody will appreciate your attempt of humor. So, back to the real problem: it goes without saying that I expected you to present something like article on the nuances of ἰδού, published in one of the many journals like Journal of Translation. Or a excerpt of a textbook, or a renowned Biblical commentary. Please, could you do so?

As for the cite you added to the verse: I'm afraid it doesn't show what you expect it to demonstrate. Indeed, ἰδού appears in the original verse and at that moment appears in the translations of the e.g., New International Version and the New Living Translation. But this doesn't imply that at that moment is the translation of ἰδού! I have stated earlier (User_talk:Aschlafly#Matthew_and_John - btw, it's in one of the four questions I'd like you to answer):

The New International Version starts the verse with At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn.., but this at that moment seems to be a translation of the leading καὶ (in fact of the string of καὶ-καὶ-καὶ), while ἰδού is dropped from the sentence altogether - as you observed rightly in Bible Translation Issues.

The new international version seems to follow the same principles as the NET Bible project, which states:

Introductory particles like ἰδού (“behold”) have been translated to fit the context (sometimes “listen,” “pay attention,” “look,” or occasionally left untranslated).

It seems to me that you are one of the first to translate ἰδού as at that/this moment. And such a novel translation obviously needs an elaborate justification, especially when it is used further on with far-reaching consequences (see Counterexamples to Relativity).

AugustO 10:28, 16 April 2011 (EDT)

I've shown here and at Talk:John 1-7 that besides the repeated claims that there is a nuance ἰδού meaning "suddenly" or "at that time" no serious evidence for the existence of such a nuance is given. So - as the very minimum - I reintroduced the source-tag. AugustO 11:35, 3 May 2011 (EDT)

For the time being...

According to Bible Translation Issues No. 17, I omitted the translation of ἰδού in Matthew 27:51. I think this is a reasonable compromise until any scholarly source for a translation of ἰδού as at this moment can be found (see here for the ongoing discussion ).

AugustO 09:22, 10 June 2011 (EDT)