Talk:Mystery:Why is England More Liberal than the United States?

Nice essay! I hope you add more! I have always been wondering this, considering until recently England was more centered towards religion. NickP 01:15, 17 July 2011 (EDT)

Andy,

This is a very interesting topic, but I think an important point needs to be raised. English liberalism is not a new problem. It's important to keep in mind that many of the first colonists in America came here to escape from what they perceived as laxity within the Church of England, and that the revolutionary war was a reaction to British governmental overreach and over-regulation. In many ways, American conservatism is a RESPONSE to British liberalism. --Benp 13:38, 17 July 2011 (EDT)

There is no doubt that the roots of revolution were in the overreach of government and taxation. The latter may be characteristic of left leaning (liberal) governments but I think it is a little anachronistic to decribe this a a reaction against "liberalism". Going further, I don't believe the British government of the time, while authoritarian, could be described in terms of either classical liberalism or its current meaning.

I would add that fundamental reason why Great Britain/UK (I have no idea why this work singles out "England" specifically) and Europe generally have more liberal attitudes has arisen from several historical trends - that this topic needs to expand on - but most notable the contrasting feature of the United States is that its growth and success rests on indiviudal responsibility, liberties and a hostile mindset to big government and tax since the revolution! Laguardia

The entrenched Church of England

I wonder if part of the reason is that the officially entrenched nature of the Anglican Church has caused a complacency amongst the religious over there. In many ways the Church of England has become more of a social organisation than a religious one, and this has had a liberalizing effect on the population on the whole. --DamianJohn 14:43, 17 July 2011 (EDT)

Good point ... and certainly worth adding. I'll include it now, and please feel free to improve.--Andy Schlafly 15:01, 17 July 2011 (EDT)

More liberal

Is the UK more liberal? What factors are we judging its liberalism on? MaxFletcher 16:53, 17 July 2011 (EDT)

England is certainly less conservative than the U.S.--Andy Schlafly 17:07, 17 July 2011 (EDT)

I am sure that it is but I am just wondering about what factors have been taken into account. MaxFletcher 20:18, 17 July 2011 (EDT)

The BBC

It's a public broadcaster, which tend to be liberal (look at NPR and PBS in the US) and furthermore, Brits have no choice in funding it, as it's paid for by mandatory TV licenses. Finally, while there is commercial (i.e. non-government TV) in Britain, the BBC is the only free (as in beer, aside from the license) option. Because of the tightly-controlled media, and lack of a free market, it's no wonder liberalism is so rampant there. --FergusE 22:01, 17 July 2011 (EDT)

The BBC is not the only free-to-view broadcaster by any means. Up until the advent of digital television there were five free channels, BBC1, BBC2, ITV, Channel 4, Channel 5. There are now dozens more free-to-air channels, the vast majority of them being commercial broadcasters. WilliamB1 22:37, 17 July 2011 (EDT)

Do you deny that The BBC is the dominant media in England and that it's heavily liberally biased? --FergusE 22:49, 17 July 2011 (EDT)

I will answer from my perspective of living in the UK for a year not so long ago. Yes. Liberally biased but not heavily liberally biased. --DamianJohn 01:53, 18 July 2011 (EDT)

FergusE, rather than turning on me for pointing out a factual error and posing a question that bears no relevance to the point I was making, you could just accept your mistake graciously. I never said it wasn't the dominant media in England. And I do not think it is even possible, or sensible to divide the world up into things which are 'conservative' and things which are 'liberal' as if the two terms are categories set in stone and used in the same way by everyone. WilliamB1 08:31, 18 July 2011 (EDT)

A federal England and freedom of speech

This is quite a slippery argument. England is a much smaller country than the United States and it's hard to see how it would be practical to devise any sort of federal structure. Of course, the United Kingdom is now, essentially, arranged along federal lines. Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland all have their own assemblies or parliaments.

I don't quite understand the freedom of speech argument. What evidence is there that England is less at home to the right of free expression than is the United States?--Jdixon 11:13, 18 July 2011 (EDT)

England does not guarantee a right of free speech. It's that simple.--Andy Schlafly 21:21, 18 July 2011 (EDT)

Actually Article 10 of the UK Human Rights Act of 1998 states:

Article 10: Freedom of Expression (1) Everyone has the right of freedom of expression. This right shall include freedom to hold opinions and to receive and impart information and ideas without inference by public authority and regardless of frontiers. however this was only guaranteed in 2000 unlike the US which was in the 1700's MaxFletcher 21:42, 18 July 2011 (EDT)

Are there any cases where this has made any difference?--Andy Schlafly 22:24, 18 July 2011 (EDT)

Well, the fact is they do have the freedom of speech which is protected by law. MaxFletcher 22:25, 18 July 2011 (EDT)

It has frequently made a difference. Indeed, many in the Conservative Party are calling for an overhaul of UK human rights laws since they believe them to have led to overly lenient sentences in certain court cases. WilliamB1 22:27, 18 July 2011 (EDT)

Are there any examples that could be reviewed?--Andy Schlafly 22:28, 18 July 2011 (EDT)

Here and here. MaxFletcher 22:31, 18 July 2011 (EDT)

Your second link seems to support my point: there still is not freedom of speech in England. (I couldn't get your first link to work).--Andy Schlafly 20:34, 19 July 2011 (EDT)

Article 10 does guarantee freedom of speech and expression but the question is whether it is used and, anyway, it is some 300 years behind the US meaning that they haven't had any opportunity to exercise it like the US. MaxFletcher 21:37, 19 July 2011 (EDT)

Well, this article provides a rather nice summary; David Cameron for the repeal of the Human Rights Act. If you would like anything more specific from me it will have to wait. It's 3.30am over here and I need my sleep. WilliamB1 22:33, 18 July 2011 (EDT)

Your link seems to be broken, unfortunately.--Andy Schlafly 20:34, 19 July 2011 (EDT)

Fixed. WilliamB1 21:54, 19 July 2011 (EDT)

Move Request

Can a moderator move the page to Mystery:Why is The United Kingdom More Liberal than the United States?? It would make more sense because England is only one part of the country. TonyB 20:28, 18 July 2011 (EDT)

No, I don't think so. "England", the dominant nation in the United Kingdom, is the more familiar term. And England itself is more liberal than the United States.--Andy Schlafly 21:16, 18 July 2011 (EDT)

Hello Andy, I am new to this site and think there could be some interesting observations to be made in this article. with the intention of being helpful, unless you really do mean Engalnd excluding Wales, Scotland etc. I must point out that "England" as a term for the whole of the United Kingdom has long passed into non-accetpable use appart from in very casual parlance outside of the United Kingdom and even then it is regarded as incorrect and even parochial. If the article is going to be worthy of a encyclopedic resource for educational use, I would along with Tony's suggestion. If it needs to be concise, "Britain" is the more common contracted term to refer to the whole of the UK (even inlcuding Northern Ireland) pretty much everywhere.User:DavidMilton

Mr Schlafly, Scotland and Wales are also more liberal than the US. Northern Ireland is becoming liberal too as interest in religion declines. HollyS 19:40, 19 July 2011 (EDT)

Is England the most liberal of all?--Andy Schlafly 20:30, 19 July 2011 (EDT)

The Conservative Party would have a majority of Parliamentary seats if you took England on its own, and the vast majority of the Conservative Party vote comes from the English electorate. WilliamB1 21:52, 19 July 2011 (EDT)

Population Density??

I was thinking along the lines of major differences between England and the US and one of the biggest differences that kept popping up in my mind was population density. The US has a much smaller population density than England. In fact I think England has a population density that is 12 times more dense compared in to the US. Basic politics and voting patterns in the US say that urban areas (high population density) tend to vote Democratic while rural areas (low population density) tend to vote Republican. [1] So maybe England has the similar trends with their voting habits.--Harrymd 21:25, 18 July 2011 (EDT)

Great point ... worth including. Please feel free to add it.--Andy Schlafly 21:44, 18 July 2011 (EDT)

I know the referenced article I used for the trends referenced evolution, but I was in the middle of watching a movie with my family so I didn't have time to look for another one.--Harrymd 21:47, 18 July 2011 (EDT)

Are you sure about this population density idea? Constituencies in thinly populated areas like the Highlands of Scotland, the Northern and Western Isles, the Scottish Borders, mid-Wales and Cornwall have consistently voted Liberal or Labour. I think liberal attitudes in Britain have much more to do with a lack of religious belief and low church attendance. HollyS 19:38, 19 July 2011 (EDT)

Good point. Some counterexamples exist in the US also: Vermont, one of the most rural states, is also perhaps the most liberal.--Andy Schlafly 20:39, 19 July 2011 (EDT)

I'll admit that there are some counter example, but that is why I didn't use exclusive language, because there are always things that fall outside generalities.--Harrymd 21:06, 19 July 2011 (EDT)

the Church leads the nation and govt,

the Church is the Light of the world, (Light = guide) the Church is the Salt of the earth, (salt = preservative)

the politicians and people will follow the Church, because Christ gave all Christians authority over demons and diseases, see theelijahchallenge.org

the Church speaks with authority, and the Church confounds the evil spirits in a nation, with Spiritual warfare (prayer, authoritative commands)

Christians rebuke the evil spirits with Kingly authority,commands, a General moves his troops with a spoken word (command), because the King has authority, we are kings,,,,,,,,,and Christ is our King of kings, the Father gave Christ all authority in Heaven and earth,

so Britain is liberal because the Church is apostate,liberal,lukewarm,babylon, mother of harlets, rev17

but in recent years,,,,,most north american churches have called evil good, so most churches in the world are apostate, babylon, ,,,,,,,,we're in the endtimes see www.bible-codes.org

9-11-01 world trade center collapse 9-11-08 world trade collapse 9-29-08 dow-jones fell 777.7 points, on jewish new years day, the first day of the jewish calendar year 5769, during sept 2008 (christian calendar year) 2008 + 5769 = 7777 years,,,,,,,,,the Dow fell 777.7 points ON THAT SAME DAY,,,,9-29-08

SIGNS FROM GOD!

GREAT SYMBOLIC STORY, SIGN FROM GOD

It's common knowledge that Christians fled religious persecution from the State Churches (Church of England and others) and the RCC,

to come to the NEW WORLD, for religious freedom,

the early colonial americans were revived and united by the FIRST GREAT AWAKENING, and those Christians prayed for good govt, and they sent their best men (Bible-believers) to the Convention, to write the Founding Documents (Declaration, Constitutions, Bill of Rights)

Christ answered their prayers, and inspired the Founders to write WORLD-CLASS freedoms, rights, biblical principles of good govt,

so Christ super-blessed the bible-believing nation, usa, with Spiritual and physical riches,

and the usa was the lone super-power,,,,she dominated the nations in every category (economy,stability, politics, entertainment, publicity, jobs, freedoms, rights, olympics, inventions, medicine,science, space race, health, corn belt, etc)

the usa king (president) dominated the other kings of the nations,,,,,,,like a King of kings (a Christ-figure, in the Bible-believing nation)

mexico is dominated by rcc (not bible-belief),,,,and is 3rd world, but usa is the lone super-blessed super-power,,,,,,,because we believe the bible,,,,,,a nation of fundamentalist Christians.

all non-christian nations are ruined by Christ-rejection, the Christian bible-believing nations are rich,powerful, super-blessed, WHICH IS A GREAT SIGN TO THE WORLD, CHRIST IS GOOD FOR A NATION,

but since 1987, most north american churches are calling evil good, and God pulled His Holy Spirit of Christ out of those bad churches, and the endtimes began

www.bible-codes.org

written by dennis