nsTeam2RO, nsTeam2RW, nsTeam2_talkRO, nsTeam2_talkRW
13,254
edits
Changes
Jump to navigation
Jump to search
Line 203:
Line 203: + + + + + +
Talk:Extraterrestrial life (view source)
Revision as of 15:05, August 24, 2008
, 15:05, August 24, 2008→Salvation rules out extra-terrestrial life?: A simple God, fitter bacteria, Earth and centre, and humbleness.
::::The Bible tells us that, as mere humans, we are to be humble. How then can either of you excuse walking around assuming everything in the universe revolves around us, and that all 3,230,441,870,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 cubic miles of the cosmos was made for the benefit of providing dim night lights for us {{Bible ref|book=Genesis|chap=1|verses=17}}. People accuse evolutionists of worshiping man, saying that humans are the "pinnacle of evolution" (we're not, really). Yet evolutionists constantly point out that we are not centered in the universe, that there is nothing specially significant about us, etc., while at the same time, creationists, supposedly humble before God, seem to sincerely believe that everything in the universe is centered around humans, and that all of Earth is made for humans to trash. Who is really worshiping man before all else?
::::The Bible tells us that, as mere humans, we are to be humble. How then can either of you excuse walking around assuming everything in the universe revolves around us, and that all 3,230,441,870,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 cubic miles of the cosmos was made for the benefit of providing dim night lights for us {{Bible ref|book=Genesis|chap=1|verses=17}}. People accuse evolutionists of worshiping man, saying that humans are the "pinnacle of evolution" (we're not, really). Yet evolutionists constantly point out that we are not centered in the universe, that there is nothing specially significant about us, etc., while at the same time, creationists, supposedly humble before God, seem to sincerely believe that everything in the universe is centered around humans, and that all of Earth is made for humans to trash. Who is really worshiping man before all else?
::::These points aside, I will now go ahead and make the changes I have described earlier: Some Christians, specifically CS Lewis and the Vatican, have discussed extraterrestrial life from within an [[Exotheology|exotheological]] perspective. Both seem to think aliens would be free from Original Sin because they are not from Earth, which makes sense. --[[User:Stirlatez|Stirlatez]] 17:32, 23 August 2008 (EDT)
::::These points aside, I will now go ahead and make the changes I have described earlier: Some Christians, specifically CS Lewis and the Vatican, have discussed extraterrestrial life from within an [[Exotheology|exotheological]] perspective. Both seem to think aliens would be free from Original Sin because they are not from Earth, which makes sense. --[[User:Stirlatez|Stirlatez]] 17:32, 23 August 2008 (EDT)
:::::"''I would like to address the assertion that God is not complicated. God is usually defined as eternal, infinite, omniscient, omnipotent, and ultimately 'unknowable' to humanity. Considering that the universe and everything in it is very complicated ... any being capable of knowing about all of it at once should be very complicated. Whether or not He is composed of "parts" shouldn't have any bearing on this. Conceivably, the fact that He is immaterial would make his existence even '''more''' confounding to us, since by no "simple" means can mind exist without body.''": For one thing, you are assuming that God has the same limitations that physical beings have. How do you know that a being ''cannot'' exist that (a) knows everything, and (b) is not complicated? Assuming we are using "complicated" and "complex" as synonyms, see this:
{{QuoteBox|According to much classical theology (Thomas Aquinas, for example) God is simple, and simple in a very strong sense, so that in him there is no distinction of thing and property, actuality and potentiality, essence and existence, and the like. Some of the discussions of divine simplicity get pretty complicated, not to say arcane. (It isn’t only Catholic theology that declares God simple; according to the Belgic Confession, a splendid expression of Reformed Christianity, God is ‘a single and simple spiritual being.’)[http://creationontheweb.com/content/view/5448]}}
:::::"''...there are numerous documented cases of spontaneous mutations producing "more fit" specimen. Bacteria periodically "adapt" to the vaccines...''": I was trying to conform to the terms used, and in doing so oversimplified. Certainly there are mechanisms (copying mistakes a.k.a. mutations) that produce changes that are beneficial. However, these beneficial mutations are not information-gaining mutations, but information-''losing'' mutations. For example, penicillin gets into bacteria by means of the pumps that the bacteria use for bringing in nutrients (I think it is). A mutation makes these pumps ''less efficient'', so the bacteria pumps in less penicillin, not enough to kill it. This makes the bacteria "more fit" for a penicillin-rich environment, but otherwise it is less fit, and has lost information (involved with the pump mechanism). Evolution, however, to be more precise, requires an ''information-gaining'' mechanism. It doesn't have one.
::::: You are correct about the impossibility of a moving Earth being able to be and remain at the centre. I consider that argument to be like an imperfect but still-valid analogy; it can only be pushed so far. But remember that it was Hubble (and others) who saw the significance and rejected it for philosophical reasons.
::::: As for being humble, I think evolution produces both extremes of views. If we are here by evolution and not God, then on the one hand we are the pinnacle of creation, responsible only to ourselves, and masters of our own destiny. That can produce extreme pride in ourselves. On the other hand, we are nothing more than a cosmic accident, existing for a brief moment in the time and then gone. We are essentially worthless. That can produce extreme depression (and is likely responsible for much of the current problem with youth suicide, depression, low self-esteem, etc.). Conversely, if we are made in the image of God and are the centre of his creation, that means that we are special. But we are not the products of our own ingenuity, but created by someone greater, compared to Whom we are but dust ({{Bible ref|Psalm|103|14}}), so we take pride in our Creator, not in our own abilities. That's a fare more balanced viewpoint.