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Debate: Have the gates of hell prevailed against the church Jesus founded on a rock, when He Himself said it could never happen? Did Christ who cannot lie fail to fulfill his promise? (view source)
Revision as of 12:00, August 27, 2020
, 12:00, August 27, 2020/* No, the gates of hell have never prevailed against the church Jesus built on a rock so that it never committed apostasy from the faith, because Jesus remains with the church always to the end of the world, and the Spirit of truth is with the church...
==No, the gates of hell have never prevailed against the church Jesus built on a rock so that it never committed [[apostasy]] from the faith, because Jesus remains with the church always to the end of the world, and the Spirit of truth is with the church for ever leading into all the truth as Jesus promised, and Jesus is God Who cannot lie.==
==No, the gates of hell have never prevailed against the church Jesus built on a rock so that it never committed [[apostasy]] from the faith, because Jesus remains with the church always to the end of the world, and the Spirit of truth is with the church for ever leading into all the truth as Jesus promised, and Jesus is God Who cannot lie.==
===User: IndependentSkeptic===
*According to the above argument, the gates of hell '''''have''''' prevailed against the church Jesus founded on a rock, and therefore it cannot be the pillar and ground of the truth as Paul testified it is.
*'''Jesus''' said by his own divine authority that the gates of hell shall never prevail against the church he built.
*''But you say it happened.''
*'''Jesus''' said by his own divine authority that he is with us (''addressed to the apostles'') always, to the end of the world.
*''But you say he did not remain always with their appointed apostolic successors in the church he founded, the church that still exists to this day.''
*'''Jesus''' said another Counsellor, the Spirit of truth given by the Father would be with us '''for ever''', and that the Spirit of truth would guide us into '''all''' the truth.
*''But you say he did not remain with the church for ever, and did not continuously guide the church into all the truth for ever, from the time of the apostles to this present day.''
*'''Paul''' said the church is the household of God, the church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth, built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the chief cornerstone, in whom the whole structure is joined together and grows into a '''holy''' temple in the Lord, in whom we also are built into it for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit.
*''But you say the church is no longer the pillar of the truth and a holy temple in the Lord and a dwelling place of God in the Spirit. And you say that the same church as identified by an unbroken continuous line of [[apostolic succession]] is built on the lies and blasphemies of Satan, and not the truth.''
*'''Paul''' said in the church '''God''' has appointed apostles, prophets, teachers, workers of miracles, healers, helpers, administrators, and speakers in various languages; and that in the church are bishops, ''presbyteroi'' (priests/elders), and deacons.
*''But you say these are done away by the Bible as the sole rule of faith and authority.''
*'''Paul''' said that all authority is established by God, and whoever resists authority resists what God has established, and that those who resist what God has established will be condemned.
*''But you say that true Christians are duty-bound to resist the established authority of the church when they personally judge that it is wrong, and not to listen.''
*'''Peter''' said to submit to the elders and be clothed with humility, for God opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble, and therefore to humble ourselves under the mighty hand of God that in due time he may exalt you.
*''But you say we are not obligated to submit to others' authority.''
*'''The Letter to the Hebrews''' says to obey our leaders who spoke the word of God to us, in the historical context, those leaders of the existing church in the first century established since the time of the apostles.
*''But you say we should disobey the leaders of the church who have preserved the Bible and draw doctrine directly from it as the word of God that they speak in every celebration of the Catholic [[Mass (liturgy)|Mass]].''
*'''Jesus''' said that anyone who will not listen to the church is to be rejected as the Jews rejected tax collectors and pagans, and said that whoever has an ear is to listen to what the Spirit says to the '''churches'''.
*''But you praise those who did not and do not listen to the church Jesus built on a rock and who did not and do not listen to the churches that have continually existed since the first century, both at the time John wrote the book of Revelation and since that time to the present day.''
*'''Jesus''' said that unless a man is regenerated by water and the Spirit he cannot enter the kingdom of God. '''Paul''' washed away his sins by being baptized, and '''Peter''' said that baptism saves now; and '''Paul''', again, that God saves us in virtue of his own mercy by the water-washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit, and that God loved the church and gave himself up for her, that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the '''washing of water with the word''', that he might present the church to himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish.
*''But you say that baptism does not save and does not regenerate and does not cleanse away sin or wash away sin by water and the word.''
*'''James''' says that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.
*''But you say that faith alone justifies, not works.''
*'''Jesus''' and '''Paul''' both say that all will be judged according to their '''works'''.
*''But you say '''no''' believer saved by faith alone will be judged.''
*'''Jesus''' said to the apostles, "Whosesoever sins you forgive are forgiven, and whosesoever sins you retain are retained." The entire context of the New Testament warns that we can fall away and forfeit eternal life by mortal sins "unto death", but that we can be brought back by confession to those entrusted with the ministry of reconciliation and absolution as ambassadors of God, God speaking by them, for if we confess our sins he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins. It was not to them alone that it was said, but to us on whom the end of the ages has come.
*''But you say that this is idolatry and a demonic doctrine, that no one has been given the power of God to forgive sins.''
*'''Jesus''' said that his flesh and blood are '''real''' food and drink, and that unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood you do not have life in you, and that whoever eats his flesh and drinks his blood has eternal life. (<small>the word for "eat" ''trogŏn'' '''τρώώγων''' in John 6:27-58 is not figurative in the Greek text, but only literal and physical in meaning</small><ref>https://sermonwriter.com/bittpsblical-commentary/john-651-58/ John 6:51-58 Biblical Commentary (Bible study) John 6:51-58<br>http://shamelesspopery.com/what-if-the-protestant-interpretation-of-john-6-is-correct/ What if the Protestant Interpretation of John 6 is Correct?</ref>)
*''But you say this is only a metaphor and does not and never did literally mean eating and drinking his flesh and blood, and that communion does not give eternal life.''
:Catholics believe the word of Christ and what he promised forever.{{quotation|For all the promises of God find their Yes in him. That is why we utter the Amen through him, to the glory of God. But it is God who establishes us with you in Christ, and has commissioned us; he has put his seal upon us and given us his Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee. <br>—2 Corinthians 1:20-22}} --[[User:Dataclarifier|Dataclarifier]] ([[User talk:Dataclarifier|talk]]) 04:56, 22 August 2020 (EDT)
:From the first century to the present day there have been those who disobeyed their leaders who spoke the word of God, rejected the traditions of the apostles, and insisted on private interpretation of the scriptures, who went out and taught a different gospel than the one delivered to them by their teachers, and who by this visible pattern of behavior showed that they were antichrists. <br>According to history the Catholic Church dominated and led by its leaders as shepherds of the flock having established authority to make disciples of all nations, was not founded by those who disobeyed, went out, and taught a different gospel from the one they had been taught. The question of who has the true doctrine of Christ is settled by scripture, as outlined above. Ask this question about those who founded your church, and about those who do not profess any particular church but claim the authority of the Bible alone as interpreted by themselves: did they and do they disbelieve and disobey '''Hebrews 13:7,17; Galatians 1:6-9; 1 John 2:18-19; John 14:16; 16:13 and 15:1-6'''. --[[User:IndependentSkeptic|IndependentSkeptic]] ([[User talk:IndependentSkeptic|talk]]) 08:00, 27 August 2020 (EDT)
==See also==
==See also==